I work in a brothel — moms pay me to deflower their clueless virgin sons

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[+]KatsutamiNanamoto -6 points-5 points-4 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes, all women are broken.

Have you counted and examined every single one of them?

We’re talking about why young men are not having sex

Which is one of the least important things we could talk about in this sub.

but you choose to deflect with typical gynocentric bullshit.

Mocking your generalizations doesn't make me gynocentric in the slightest. Have some logic at least.

Young men are not having sex and therefore are procreating at the lowest rate EVER.

I don't think that human population growth has even stopped. Even if it had - 1) 8 billions is too much anyway, at least being so inefficiently divided into 200 useless color spots on political map; 2) again, there are more important social problems in the whole humankind, and no fucking procreation (pun not intended) is gonna solve them.

but I bet you think the meaningless blanket term “climate change” does right?

Lol, talk about whataboutism and being offtopic. But I bet you are a super smart scientist and climate expert, right?

You’ll be the one crying when there is no one to fix your car, your plumbing, your infrastructure

Or maybe you are an expert in sociology (or whatever other discipline covers that topic) and can explain how that would ever happen?

pay your social security

Why would someone other than me pay for my "social security" (whatever that means; if it's taxes then I also pay them myself, as anyone else)?

or stop those that mean to destroy your way of life from doing so.

Well, even now I don't see anyone who's stopping the government of the country where I have to live (I didn't say "my government" because I obviously don't own it) from that.

Or did you meant someone else (I wonder who, lol)?

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[–]ulveskyggeleft-wing male advocate 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, it’s not more important than oxygen nor the deprivation of equal rights, but neither is lack of pain. Naturally, different people have different libidos and different levels of desire for real or perceived intimacy, some very low and some very high, and the people with the most reliable information as to how important things are to them are those very same people. As to whether there’s a sociobiological basis for men expressing more persistent and intense interest in sex, and whether it’s even the case, I’m not sure, but it certainly seems plausible to me, so I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand, although I’m also against pressuring men into conformity. What is clear to me is that there is a loneliness epidemic (regardless of sexlessness) and that boys and men are more impacted on average, having less friends, etc., and this is just one piece of that; loneliness is a health issue; even though it may be conceded that loneliness is not necessarily the biggest issue men face, neither is the comparative underfunding of prostate cancer, but the former is probably more worth talking about, given that the leading cause of death in men under 50 is suicide apparently.

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[–]frackingfaxerleft-wing male advocate 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You see these questions all the time on the sex worker subreddits. A male virgin asks about how to go about booking their first time with a professional. So, no, I don't think it's just some isolated incidents. Yes, it is a symptom of something of something larger.

It's not exactly a new phenomenon though. Historically, it was a rite of passage in many cultures; it still is in some Latin American countries. It had to do with traditional sexual mores, i.e. female chastity, girls needing to remain virgins before marriage, and all that. Things that the Sexual Revolution was supposed to do away with. Interestingly, during the height of the Sexual Revolution, there was supposedly this decline in business for sex workers, who struggled to compete against the unbeatable prices the amateurs weren't charging. Clearly, a lot has changed between then and now.

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In my opinion you are overreaching here, just because you love someone doesn´t mean you should shut your eyes to possibilitys that might affect them in a way that turns them against society. As an incel outside of the incel bubble I absolutely feel some bittereness towards women in general. This doesn´t invalidate any platonic relationship with my mom or other female friends. My mother doesn´t have the kind of relationship where she would ever buy me an escort (thank god, that would feel aqward) [I also don´t think she knows how unsucessfull i am with women] but If she would my thoughts wouldn´t be: Oh she doesn´t want me to become a terorist. I would see it as a delayed lesson in parenting from her. She, or the community in which she brought me up apperently caused some dissfunction around living out my sexuality, so as this is now apperent she pays some money to get this fixed.

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[–]ulveskyggeleft-wing male advocate 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

“Consent” under duress is a legal concept. I’m fairly sure there is no duress here, but this is not legal advice. Apart from legality, the idea that the social and psychological pressure for young men to get sex negates their consent is infantilizing nonsense. There’s no threats of violence, coercion, no forcible constraints, etc. Assuming those pressures were universal for men, then all male consent to sex would be negated. If we revise it a universality of those pressures for all young men, then all young men’s consent to sex would be negated. Where should the male age of consent (ethically, if not legally) then be? 25? 30? 50? Infinity? Conceivably, those pressures even increase with male age, and are ubiquitous, if not necessarily completely universal. Absolutely none of the behavior in this article is exploitative.

[–]Garfish16 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ulveskyggeleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

If I understand you correctly, your argument is that the sexual exploitation of men is okay because coercion stemming from material deprivation does not count.

Surely, if z does not count as x nor y, that does not tell you I think that x nor y is okay.

Edit: I understand that you are redefining all of those words to try to make your argument appear less horrible, but I'm using them in their conventional sense.

I’m redefining all those words? I’m not even sure what your definition of some of these words are, exactly because of how unconventionally you seem to use them. Material deprivation? Am I to understand that material, in the way you define material, may include sex? Otherwise, I have literally no idea which “material” you think these virginal men in the article are “deprived” of. That’s not necessarily a gotcha; I just cannot properly address an argument or framing thereof, if I genuinely don’t know the intended meaning of the words you’re using.

If I guessed correctly what you meant by “material deprivation”, i.e., sexlessness or virginity, then you must be saying that “coercion” may stem therefrom. In what definition of coercion? Because not the conventional one. Basically nobody argues it’s coercive by nature for men (nor women) to lose their virginities. Is it the money? That can’t be, because many men in this article aren’t even paying for the sex themselves.

I only infer that because you’ve spoken highly about the meaningfulness of sex elsewhere that you are not completely antisexual regarding male virgins, that you do not mean to say that all male virgins, regardless of age or mental faculty, lack the capacity to consent to sex. Otherwise, you seem or your argumentation seems to imply that male virgins (insomuch as they’re to a degree societally pressured to lose their virginity, which is generally universal) cannot consent to sex.

[–]Garfish16 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ulveskyggeleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I find it genuinely baffling that someone on the left would not already know this.

I find it baffling that anti-capitalists still try to gatekeep the Left, even the far Left, to themselves, but, yes, I’m relatively familiar with anti-capitalist concepts of exploitation, well, exploitation of labor at least, not really exploitation of purchase or whatever you’re articulating, especially the purchase of something not covered under the to-be-seized means of production, i.e., sex. Even if that was within the conventional understanding of exploitation for anti-capitalists, which I’m not granting, I still wouldn’t care for that convention, because I’m a social democrat, not an anti-capitalist, alright?

To sexually exploit someone is materially gain something by using someone else for sex.

When mothers pay a sex worker for their sons’ (consensual) loss of virginity, the sex worker is not using those men for sex; the sex worker is using sex with those men for the material gain of their mothers’ money. Even if that was “exploitation”, it would be material, not sexual “exploitation”; the sex worker doesn’t gain sex; rather, the mothers’ sons gain sex (the sex worker’s labor) in exchange for the sex worker gaining the mothers’ money. Given that it’s the mothers whom the sex worker is materially gaining from, whom then do you think is being materially “exploited”, the mothers? Or will you put aside what the article is mainly about, i.e., mothers paying for their sons’ loss of virginity?

Coercion is the act of compelling someone into an action.

Again, whom are you arguing is being compelled, the mothers or the mothers’ sons?

Coercion through material deprivation is to coerc someone into an action by withholding or threatening to withhold something that they need.

If the action being supposedly compelled is the very same action that is supposedly threatened to be withheld, that makes no sense at all, and I hope that’s not what you’re suggesting. That would be like calling it coercive to hand out free water.

[–]HeForeverBleeds 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

the idea that the social and psychological pressure for young men to get sex negates their consent is infantilizing nonsense.

These "men" are literally having their mommies making arrangements for who they have sex with. What full-grown, mentally healthy, independent adult has his mother choose who he has sex with? Regardless of their legal ages, they are evidently not making their own decisions.

It's their mothers who are infantilizing them, by being such an overbearing helicopter parents that she 1. has not raised him to be independent even at his age 2. is inserting herself into parts of his life that no parent has any business being involved with.

Also there's a difference between general social pressure (which is also an issue, since it's disgusting that society shames people for not living up to idiotic arbitrary standards regarding when one should have sex) and literally having his mother directly tell him when and who he'll be having sex with.

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[–]ulveskyggeleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The fact that Alice Little calls it consensual means absolutely nothing. Children are literally groomed from birth to obey what their mothers tell them to do, and that conditioning doesn't magically disappear the second someone is of legal age.

Well, apparently the fact you call something non-consensual means absolutely nothing now. Adult grooming is meaningless moral panic. Adults can decide whether or not to obey or follow the suggestions of their parents. To deny otherwise is to infantilize adults, and that is to adults’ detriment.

The fact is, if a man wants to have sex he can decide that on his own. If it's someone else--let alone someone who he's been taught from birth to obey--making the decision for him, it is by definition not his decision.

So it’s okay for your illiberalism to make that decision for him and take away his choice? No. It’s his decision to consent or not to anything, regardless of who organizes or plans it. It’s like saying a woman cannot consent to anything amatory initiated by a man. “Oh, sure, she doesn’t need men’s arrangements, she’s her own woman, that’s exploitation.”

[–]HeForeverBleeds 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It’s like saying a woman cannot consent to anything amatory initiated by a man.

No, that's a fallacious false equivalency. The relationship between a man and a woman is not analogous to the relationship between a parent and a offspring.

Adult grooming is meaningless moral panic

It's not "adult grooming" unless he met his mother as adult. Otherwise the grooming occurred starting at birth and throughout his entire childhood, till now. Claiming that impact is nullified as soon as he becomes an adult is out of touch with reality.

it’s okay for your illiberalism to make that decision for him and take away his choice?

If it were his choice, it would be him--not his mother--arranging it. You're doing all kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid the obvious: an independent adult makes his own decisions about his sex life. This is mutually exclusive from his mother making these decisions for him.

[–]ulveskyggeleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

that's a fallacious false equivalency. The relationship between a man and a woman is not analogous to the relationship between a parent and a offspring.

That’s a straw man fallacy. I didn’t say they were analogous nor equivalent. What is analogous is being selected by a partner (like a woman being selected by a man and consenting) and having a partner selected for you (like a man accepting a session with a sex worker selected by someone else). Don’t get things twisted. If you can’t separate different arguments, then you’ll likely run out of my patience. If you wish, you can say it’s different, because of who is doing the selecting, someone with trust built since pre-adulthood, but then you can’t argue that external arrangement, organizing, and planning on its own has anything to do with exploitation.

It's not "adult grooming" unless he met his mother as adult. Otherwise the grooming occurred starting at birth and throughout his entire childhood, till now. Claiming that impact is nullified as soon as he becomes an adult is out of touch with reality.

In that case, EVERY adult has been “groomed”, because every adult has been raised by an adult. You take all meaning out of grooming, if simply raising someone is equal to grooming. You might form an argument without bandying that buzzword, instead arguing that simply the influence of raising a child into an adult is permanent and thus negates any adult consent under such influence. That’s a better argument, but still illiberal moral panic.

If it were his choice, it would be him--not his mother--arranging it.

That’s a complete non sequitur. Whether to consent or not to a someone else’s arrangement is a choice.

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[–]Garfish16 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

This is a nonsensical nonsequitur.

How do you know this worker does not at least respect her clients as human beings who can make their own choices?

If someone is unwilling to sell you something that they would sell to most people they probably don't respect you but not necessarily because they don't think you're capable of making your own choices. On the flip side, just because someone is willing to sell you, something does not mean they respect you even in your ability to make your own choices let alone as a human being.

Because if she does respect them, that’s care.

Just because one person respects another in some capacity does not mean they care about them in any sense of the word. I respect Tom Brady for his sevens Superbowl rings, but I do not care about Tom Brady.

Also, I work in a service industry where I am paid to pretend to care about my customers. It is extremely rare that I authentically care about them as human beings outside of the scope of our interaction. Some of them are cool and some of them are annoying but I will forget their names if not forget them entirly within a few months. The idea that the first woman I ever had sex with would feel that way about me is devastatingly sad to imagine.

[–]ulveskyggeleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

If someone is unwilling to sell you something that they would sell to most people they probably don’t respect you but not necessarily because they don’t think you’re capable of making your own choices.

Did I specifically claim that if someone is unwilling to sell you something then they necessarily don’t think you’re capable of making your own choices? I do not think so.

just because someone is willing to sell to you, something does not mean they respect you

Did I specifically claim that if someone is willing to sell you something then they must necessarily respect you in any capacity? I do not think so.

Because if she does respect them, that’s care.

I stand by the claim that if she respects them, within the context of the service she provides, then especially then there is a provision of care in at least some sense of the word, i.e., to attend to or provide for someone’s needs. Furthermore, it’s completely possible she cares about, in other senses of the word, in having affective empathy or compassion for, her customers more than you do about your customers and perhaps even more than you care about hers, although I’m not saying this is necessarily the case. The fact you express sadness for her customers suggests you have empathy for them, that you care about them, and, unless you have exclusively female customers, how could you know that you two (or you and someone like her) have never had mutual customers? Then you must actually care about your customers to a degree. What possible reason might you have to suggest she cares less than you?

I work in a service industry where I’m paid to pretend to care about my customers. It is extremely rare that I authentically care about them as human beings outside of the scope of our interaction. Some of them are cool and some of them are annoying but I will forget their names if not forget them entirely within a few months. The idea that the first woman I ever had sex with would feel the same way about me is devastatingly sad to imagine.

Presumably then, the idea of having a casual hookup (without monetary compensation), at least for one’s first sexual experience, makes you feel a similar way. That’s just fine. Even if one feels just the same way you do about the idea, it would simply be up to them to consent to it or not. Perhaps they may be more saddened by the alternative. Additionally, other people less restricted in sociosexual orientation may be perfectly fine with that level of casualness for their first, second, third, fourth time, and so forth, even losing count. Naturally, the idea makes different people feel different ways.

[–]Garfish16 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Did I specifically claim that if someone is unwilling to sell you something then they necessarily don’t think you’re capable of making your own choices?

Implicitly yes. This is the contrapositive of the statement implicit in your rhetorical question. Logically, p => q ≡ ¬p => ¬q.

Did I specifically claim that if someone is willing to sell you something then they must necessarily respect you in any capacity?

Explicitly yes. Your line of logic was if she'll sell them sex she respects them and if she respects them, she cares about them.

The third paragraph is so full of absolutely wild logical leaps I'm not going to try and address them all. I don't think she cares less than me. I think she cares the same as me and every other service worker, which is to say, next to not at all.

Presumably then, the idea of having a casual hookup (without monetary compensation), at least for one’s first sexual experience, makes you feel a similar way.

Yes, if someone with lots of sexual experience takes the virginity of someone with very little sexual experience in a way that is meaningless to one of them and meaningful to the other one, I think that is very sad. It's also quite predatory. I think it is good when someone's first time is special and memorable for both people involved. You can call that "sociosexual restriction" if you want, but in practical terms it brings joy, meaning, and human connection into people's lives. If a virgin goes to this woman for sex, they are missing one of the most positive elements of that experience, and that sad.

[–]ulveskyggeleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Implicitly yes. This is the contrapositive of the statement implicit in your rhetorical question. Logically, p => q ≡ ¬p => ¬q.

Explicitly yes. Your line of logic was if she'll sell them sex she respects them

If she sells them sex, it does not mean she respects them. I’m not claiming she necessarily respects her clients. I think what my question was really implying was that you can’t know for sure that she doesn’t respect her clients, not because selling sex is respect, nor because because allowing people to make their own choices entails respect. I simply presented the possibility that she respects her clients (and the additional possibility that she further respects her clients as human beings (and the additional possibility that she respects (the principle of) people being able to make their own choices.))

if she respects them, she cares about them.

That indeed I said, although, again, I didn’t assume the premise that she does respect them. That premise is simply a possibility. If respect, then care, and if respect possible, then care possible. You may formalize that, if you wish.

I don't think she cares less than me. I think she cares the same as me and every other service worker, which is to say, next to not at all.

Even if you say you care next to not at all, you keep expressing empathy for human beings. Go ahead and dismiss that that’s care, although you seem to concede it’s at least a degree of care, but I shall call that care. And if you two care or not the same, then it seems you would both care.

if someone with lots of sexual experience takes the virginity of someone with very little sexual experience in a way that is meaningless to one of them and meaningful to the other one, I think that is very sad.

I already established that neither necessarily views it as meaningful as you do. Of course, I concede that it’s a possibility that the virgin-to-not-be does view it as meaningful, but then the behavior they hypothetically consent to might not be in alignment with their values, but that’s up to them to decide.

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She planned to open such a brothel. She never did. It doesn't say why, but I highly doubt she would have been able to keep the lights on such a place. Just one week after the grand opening, she'd be forced to rebrand as a gay brothel. Then most of the "studs" would go on strike, having signed up expecting to only service women.

Many escort agencies and the odd brothel keep a guy on staff, and he'll occasionally maybe see a woman. That said, I do think more women will gradually become clients, as the stigma of the profession decreases. And because of the way we morally typecast men and women, that will make it less evil in the eyes of society, a very positive development. I still rather doubt that a brothel catering exclusively to heterosexual women could ever work though. That I will need to see to believe.

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Title	I work in a brothel — moms pay me to deflower their clueless virgin sons
Author	Manoj_Malhotra
Upvotes	109
Comments	163
Date	February 10, 2024 9:25 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1anqucm/i_work_in_a_brothel_moms_pay_me_to_deflower_their/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/i-work-in-a-brothel-moms-pay-me-to-deflower-their.1245066 https://theredarchive.com/post/1245066

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