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[–]frogma 36 points37 points38 points 15 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link
You're wrong in that assumption. A guy who has experience in getting girls can provide much better advice than the average girl. He can tell you exactly what he did.
It's hard for anyone to give advice to the opposite sex- think of the advice you would give to a girl who wants to seduce men. You'd tell her "dress nice, be confident, etc.," but anyone can give that advice. The best advice she'd be able to get would come from another girl who's more experienced.
Anyway, you're not the first person to bring this up. Look at some of the advice from girls in r/relationshipadvice and you'll see why they're not the greatest people to ask.
It's not necessarily that most girls don't know what they want, but a lot of times they can't tell you exactly what the guy did to succeed. They'll also usually tell you something that's more consistent with what you'd see in a chick flick, as opposed to what alpha males actually think and do. You'd have to ask an alpha male.
Edit: and if AFCGirl knows she's been with some PUAs, those guys weren't doing it right.
[–]TofuTofu 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
This is true. I got a handjob from a girl last night in a stairwell.
Right before we were talking about sex and she was saying she wasn't ready. We were joking about it and she said, "Oh you mean the 7 hour rule." I was like "What's that?"
She goes, "You know, from The Game."
I almost cracked up.
If you're congruent and good, she won't feel like she got "picked up."
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
I got a handjob from a girl last night in a stairwell.
relevant?
[–]TofuTofu 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
Yes. My point was she knew all about the pickup community (she had read The Game and could quote parts of it) and yet she still hooked up with me. She had no clue I study seduction because most everything I do is congruent with natural game.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Since you can't see it, let me edit the completely unhelpful stuff, which just says "I got a handjob".
This is true. I was talking with this girl about sex and she was saying she wasn't ready. We were joking about it and she said, "Oh you mean the 7 hour rule." I was like "What's that?" She goes, "You know, from The Game." I almost cracked up. If you're congruent and good, she won't feel like she got "picked up."
This is true.
I was talking with this girl about sex and she was saying she wasn't ready. We were joking about it and she said, "Oh you mean the 7 hour rule." I was like "What's that?"
FTFY.
[–]frogma 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Yeah but then I'd be like "Tofu, what the hell is that supposed to mean?"
And then he'd say "Well, I got a handjob from her."
And I'd say "Oh, that makes more sense because without that part, I'd have no idea how the rest of the story had anything to do with what I mentioned."
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
This is true. I was gaming a girl and getting close to closing and we were talking about sex and she was saying she wasn't ready. We were joking about it and she said, "Oh you mean the 7 hour rule." I was like "What's that?" She goes, "You know, from The Game." I almost cracked up. If you're congruent and good, she won't feel like she got "picked up."
I was gaming a girl and getting close to closing and we were talking about sex and she was saying she wasn't ready. We were joking about it and she said, "Oh you mean the 7 hour rule." I was like "What's that?"
[–]frogma 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
So she knows about The Game, and you almost laughed at that. But what does that have to do with being congruent? If he had just said that, I literally would've asked him, "Why does that story have anything to do with congruency?" It has nothing to do with congruency- it's literally nonsense without the first part.
He could've said "I closed this girl" or he could've said "I got blown out because I tried using a line." Either way, the rest of the story can't stand alone. It's like a sentence fragment- you gotta complete the sentence or the rest of it is meaningless.
I get why you said what you originally said- mentioning the handjob sounded like bragging- but if you take a closer look you'll see that it ties the rest of the comment together. The comment literally would be uninterpretable without that part.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
True, now that I have re-read it. However, it doesn't change the fact that the gory details were wholely unneccecary.
[–]TofuTofu 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh, come on. If you think that's smutty, you'll wanna avoid a lot of my old FRs :P
[–]TofuTofu 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The entire point is that she STILL hooked up with me after admitting she knew all about pickup. Take that part out and the rest is meaningless :P
I get what you're saying, though.
[–]AFCGirl 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Why assume that being a PUA is always a DLV?
[–]TofuTofu 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Being seen as a "player" is more akin to what I mean. I'd say that in general it's seen as a negative.
[–]AFCGirl 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I wouldn't assume that it's always true for all girls. Having lots of experience with women can in some cases be a form of preselection/social proof.
I actually used to seek out players under the idea that experience be better in bed, although I'm getting tired of the mindgames.
You are right, though, in that there's a lot of social stigma among some groups. A in my stories had a lot of people who thought he was a creep, although that had a lot to do with snowballing negative stigma.
Yup. But pretty much all methods on seddit are designed to work on the majority of girls. There will always be those who fall off the grid (like you :P).
[–]RedErin -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If a woman has studied PU, then unless they're dealing with a MPUA or a natural, then I wouldn't be surprised if they figured it out.
[–]AFCGirl 15 points16 points17 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
In general:
You should always have the mindset that it is the women who should be chasing you (at least as much as you are chasing them, ideally a little more). That said, revealing that you are attracted to a woman is in itself attractive (ie, don't pretend that you are completely disinterested or they won't bite).
Treat women with the same level of respect that you treat men. Too many men put the pussy on the pedestal, so to speak, and too many more men who realize that it doesn't work overreact by being absolute douchebags.
If I'm going to engage in physical intimacy with someone, it's going to be someone who treats me as a human being. Don't DLV yourself by pretending I'm anything else.
Avoid spending money on women who haven't done anything to deserve it (and never do it twice in a row), and don't let the brats spoiled by men who do con you.
Also, physical attractiveness is WAY more important than people who sell PUA material make it out to be.
[–]Lanko 9 points10 points11 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Just remember physical attractiveness can be cheated. Many guys tend to think utilitarian and wear whatever gets the job done. Girls tend to appreciate it when a guy shows awareness of his own appearance and commits some time making himself look good. Lets face it, us guys appreciate it when a girl does this too. Just be careful about appearing too concerned about you're looks.
for me, I've got the same ugly mug I've always had, but going to the gym and putting on a bunch of weight in the right places, being more aware of my wardrobe and how I wear my beard/hair and investing in a pair of contacts has made a world of difference in the way girls react to me.
[–]frogma 7 points8 points9 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I'd also like to point out that I've had some of my greatest successes after not showering for a week, having shaggy unkempt hair, wearing dirty clothes, and smelling like shit. Nothing about my physical appearance was attractive, but my confidence and the way I carried myself made up for it.
[–]Lanko 6 points7 points8 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm curious as to why you're confidence is higher when you're unbathed and smell like shit.
[–]frogma 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Confidence shouldn't be something that goes up and down.
But at the time, I was too busy having an awesome time to care about what I looked like. College does that. That's also why I still don't really care too much- not that I don't shower, but I don't really go out of my way to primp myself before going out.
[–]RedErin 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Because you're not trying as hard, and you less invested in the outcome.
[–]PrimaxAUS 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Is that because you succeeded despite all those disadvantages?
I think the first time I went out without really thinking about it and brought a girl back, I realized it's not that big a deal. After that it was like "shit, I pulled it off yesterday- let's do it again." So, the first time, it was more like I didn't care- just generally apathetic about presenting myself. But after it worked, I realized I could be successful even if I dressed like a decrepit hobo. It's just an endless cycle of Don't Care (less insecurity)-> Omg Success!-> More Confident-> Even Less Insecurity-> More Success.
When it comes down to it, it's just like any other "disadvantage" you could have- treat it like a disadvantage, and it'll show in your body language and attitude. Ignore it, and other people tend to ignore it too (literally, as far as I can remember, no girl ever even brought it up- guys would, but you just blow em off or joke about it or something).
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]FL_Sunshine 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm a chick. This has been extremely effective on me when I was out on the dating scene.
[–]AFCGirl 20 points21 points22 points 15 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link
I'm usually hesitant to answer questions like these (or voice my opinion when I disagree with something someone says) because it's a common belief in the PUA community that women don't understand what they want, and therefore anything they say will be incongruent with what actually works. For the record, I think this is bullshit.
My personal experience in the field is also pretty limited, but I have been targeted by a handful of PUAs with varying success and I am fairly self-aware and analytical about how the behavior of these men affect me. If you are still interested, I can try to describe my perspective of events and how they affected my perception of and willingness to have sex with these men. Do also bear in mind that this is all anecdote revolving around a single female.
[–]Edgarthefish 10 points11 points12 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Proceed.
[–]CuilRunnings 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Seconded.
[–]AFCGirl 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
There are three guys in particular I'll go over, who have studied/practiced pickup to at least some degree. I'll call them A, B, and C. I've had sex with B and C. A changed his mind and decided he didn't like me anymore, but I'm including him because I'd still hit that.
A was apparently a successful player. I did not know this when I first met him, although I did find this out before it became clear that he was attracted to me (we were in the same social circle for a long time). He was also known to be brazenly sexually forward, although he was not with me at least until after it became clear to him that I was ok with it, probably because it had backfired on him in the past. Many women (and a few men) considered him "creepy" in this respect, although he was also known to be successful with women, perhaps due to sheer persistence. I actually considered it hot, which may put me in a subcategory of women that this approach works with.
At first, I thought he was physically attractive (a combination of innate and mutable qualities, some of which may be specific to me. I won't elaborate too much because I don't think I can honestly describe it analytically), but that he was out of my league. I did not consider at first that he was attracted to me. I believe in retrospect (both after learning more about PU and by talking to mutual acquaintences) that he had been hitting on me for a long time, but it was subtle and went over my head.
At one point, took me out to see a film. He didn't mention that it was a date, but when he stepped in front of me and bought my ticket, it clicked. That he was attracted to me increased his attractiveness in itself and furthermore made him accessible. Although buying me a ticket was the pivotal clue, I want to note that the spending of money was not in itself attractive. It did make me feel a little bit indebted to him, but I would have wanted to have sex with him regardless. I was overcome with a wave of strong emotion at this point, which may have been built up due to the things that he was doing prior to this event. In short: I wanted to fuck him badly.
His behavior became erratic at this point. He effectively went through a drawn-out push-pull phase, where he would pretend to be interested, and then push me away. I didn't know what he was doing at the time, and it was confusing to me. I still wanted to fuck him, but less so because he was coming off as a flake, and then even less so as I gradually started to realize that he was intentionally fucking with me. I have reason to believe that he intentionally tried to make himself less attractive to me eventually, although I think this was prior to that point.
1) When he was trying to be seductive, he would lower the pitch of his voice in a way that was very sexy. I do not know if this was something he learned how to do or something that came to him naturally, but it worked. I didn't pick up on this until much later, after which point it still worked.
2) I do recall him complimenting me frequently to an undue degree. This made me uncomfortable because I didn't think that it was sincere. If I'd known he was hitting on me, I might have been more forgiving in this respect.
3) Knowing that he was a successful PUA made him more attractive to me. Although I may have been wrong, I made the assumption that experience with lots of women would mean that the sex would be better. This might also be considered a pre-selection response. Note that this knowledge has also been known to turn women off to him.
4) As a corollary to #3, finding out about specific pump-and-dump events (eg, obtaining a bj without sexual reciprocation) made him less attractive.
5) His sexual forwardness was a turn-on for me, specifically in that it made me think about him sexually. He let it be known that he had a few kinks as well, and this increased his attractiveness.
[–]AFCGirl 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
B is actually involved in the commercial pickup industry, although he's not well-known enough that I'd heard of him at the time (I'd begun reading seduction materials at that point), and I've never seen him mentioned on Seddit. He is also younger than A and C and therefore has much less experience. I will paraphrase his strategy as taking good care of himself, being dominant and sexual to attract women, and continuing to be dominant and sexual as a bedroom strategy to keep them. I believe that this core strategy is effective.
I was at a party in a bar one night. Another man had bought me a beer that night, unsolicited. I was using it as a shield to avoid being offered more drinks because it makes me feel uncomfortable, and also I don't like to drink. B approached me and struck up a conversation. I don't remember exactly what it was about, but it wasn't anything sexual, and spread to various topics. Of note, I remember bringing up my own frustration with men at one point. I realize in retrospect that this was a dumb idea: he could easily have gotten defensive about this, or read it as a DLV. Although it wasn't intended to provoke a reaction, I believe that this is along the lines of what Seddit would call a "shit test." (In fact, I believe that "shit tests" are generally cases of women saying things offhandedly that aren't meant to be a big deal, rather than actual tests. The correct response is as Seddit would recommend: ignore it, because otherwise she will think that you are overreacting to something unimportant). B responded in a reassuring manner, which I found comforting because it was something I was frustrated about. This made me feel closer to him.
I recognized that he was trying to pick me up when he played a silly routine on me. It wasn't something specific I'd read about, but it was cheesy and out of place. I don't think it hurt his game, because it was playful, not mean. I don't think it made him look good either, though. What it did do was make me realize that he wanted me, and since I felt good about him otherwise, it was a positive for him. I started to recognize when he was using kino (he may have been doing it beforehand as well), and I noted that it made me feel really good about him. That shit works. Eventually, he invited me over to his place to smoke weed. I think this was in itself not very effective: If I hadn't known he was trying to pick me up, I would have turned him down (it was late and I didn't feel like smoking weed at the time), but at this point I was familiar with the concept of plausible deniability so I went along. I think it's important that you either make sure the girl knows you're interested in sex at this point (and wants it already), or that you have an equally enticing reason to take her somewhere private. Once we got marginally settled down at his place (sitting on his couch), he initiated sex by grabbing me and kissing me. I was very happy about this.
[–]AFCGirl 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
C is potentially interesting in that I did not find him physically attractive. Additionally, by his own admission, he threw what he considered to be "pretty awful" game at me (I will have to ask him to elaborate on this), although he has historically been a successful PUA.
He started out befriending me. Although I know that he was attracted to me, I do not know if he was actually trying to pick me up. He may have considered me unavailable at this point. Regardless, we actually have a lot in common and became pretty good friends. He was aware that I was studying PU, and in fact had me wing for him one time (he later revealed that he was trying to pick me up as well on this occasion. It didn't work, but I don't think it hurt).
He did a few other things that were pretty destructive to his game. He started spending money on me when he had the chance. This may have been effective later on in that it made me feel a indebted to him, but it was uncomfortable for me. While I didn't avoid him outright, I started to avoid situations where he had the opportunity to buy things for me. I did not reciprocate (I generally do when I like a guy). He also almost lost my friendship entirely at one point when he made a comment that indicated that I was less of a friend because I was female. I continued to hang out with him after he apologized for that one, but I felt a lot more distant from him. He did redeem himself later by making a point to include me in a similar discussion. I recognized this as him intentionally trying to make up for the earlier gaffe, and considered it a sincere apology.
He stepped up his game after a while: he invited himself into my home at one point to "use the bathroom" and lingered unnaturally. He started going out of his way to spend time with me. Although I was not physically attracted to him, I noted that his behavior was making him more attractive. In particular:
I did eventually start having sex with him. The pivotal moment was actually pretty shady here. He denies that this was meant as a pickup strategy, but I don't believe him. He decided abruptly to end our friendship, on the basis that I had deeply insulted him. There may have been some merit to this claim, although it was not my intention to hurt him. Furthermore, I realized that I was probably cockteasing the shit out of him. I didn't like it when A did that to me, so I decided that I should have sex with him as a form of apology.
TL;DR bullet points (applies to me. YMMV):
[–]TofuTofu 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I was very close to having sex with him. There were two reasons that I still didn't: One was that I had decided that the sex would probably be lame because his body was unattractive.
lol nice to see a girl admit that openly
Furthermore, I realized that I was probably cockteasing the shit out of him. I didn't like it when A did that to me, so I decided that I should have sex with him as a form of apology.
The freeze-out ftw! It's interesting you'd offer sex as "an apology." If you reflect on it a bit, do you think it was more of a personal penance to yourself to make up for behavior you thought was cruel or was it that you genuinely felt sorry towards him for what you did? I'm just really curious about what goes on in a girl's mind in these situations.
I'd venture to say he probably induced that thought into your brain via the freeze-out. His game sounds pretty good. Thanks for posting this!
[–]AFCGirl 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It didn't occur to me consciously that it was a penance, although I wouldn't necessarily discount it as a factor. I did actually care about this guy and didn't like seeing him hurt.
Although I don't actually believe that doing this would karmically get me guys that I want in the future, I believe that this was also a psychological influence.
[–]shponglespore 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thanks for responding! It's interesting to hear from a woman who is familiar with PU. Why did you decide to learn about PU and what do you get out of it? I assume it's not just to help you write insightful comments on Seddit.
I failed at closing a guy who by multiple accounts was physically attracted to me, because I had no game. Furthermore, he dragged me along on the backburner with this cocktease-and-friendzone routine that lasted far too long. My goal is twofold: become able to close on the guys that I want, and know when to back out.
Seduction is also a good focused subset of basic social skills.
[–]2StandardDeviations 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thanks for the reverse field report!
[–]MY_PENIS_IS_EXPOSED 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, go on!
[–]07SS 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't know about others, but personally I don't feel that the problem is that women don't know what they want, it's that they can't tell others what a guy did to change their subconscious opinion of him.
I feel that some PU material thrives on changing the target's subconscious perception of the PUA, and the "receiver" of the PU material sometimes can't express those things because they don't realize what has been done. Instead, the guy can tell others exactly what he did to make it work. And after all that's all that matters, IMO (Did what you said/did work?).
[–]AFCGirl 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's a matter of observation of causes and effects from both sides. You're absolutely right that it's difficult (nigh impossible) to make accurate judgements about things that you are very close to. This applies to how one responds to PUA, but it also applies to the one applying the technique in the first place.
The piece of information that the receiver has is firsthand knowledge of changes in emotional state and attractiveness as a direct result of the PU behavior.
It is possible that I am seeing cause-and-effect relationships where there are none and very likely that I am missing ones that are real. Judging from some things that I've read or discussed IRL with men, I think that the PUA (myself included) also sometimes fabricates causal relationships and overlooks important things.
For example: I had a guy who felt that I was treating him poorly one time. When he brought it up to me, I apologized and made a point from then on to be nicer to him. Around the same time (and on a related note), we started having sex. He later revealed to me that he had been convinced that having sex with him made me nicer, even though he was aware of the more logical reason that I had promised to make a conscious effort for him. Most of the seduction game is a lot more subtle than that, so I would expect misunderstanding to be pretty common.
Also, I'm convinced that "shit tests" are usually cases of women saying things offhandedly that they don't think are a big deal, and not actually intended as tests. The Seddit response to ignore them is still correct, but for a different reason.
[–]Justamaaan4 points 15 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Not women people. There are aspects of our psychology are not within the scope of our awareness that effect the way we feel about things. This does not just work in the context of picking partners. Example: If you put the same product in different packages and then asked people what they thought about them they would show preferences on taste between the two even though there is no difference. Your perception is flawed and biased everyone's is what you think you are using as criteria is not actually what you are using. Again this is not a female thing this is a human thing.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
awareness that effect the
Affect. </English language nazi>
[–]Lanko 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
Definitely want to hear your take on this.
Also, what's your take on the "you're such a nice guy, you're everything I'm looking for in a man, you're going to make some girl very happy one day but... we should just stay friends" talk that so many of us AFC's have heard from girls.
For me it's talks like this that reinforce the idea that "women don't know what they want" Which i feel is slightly inaccurate. I think Women have an Idea of what they "should" want. Which is the idealistic, caring nice guy that society pushes on them. That might even be what they expect to end up with when it's time to settle down. But that's not necessarily what they want right now and that creates a conflict that they don't want to admit to. I'm even suspicious that, when dealing with a nice guy, there's an underlying expectation that anything that starts has to be long term which scares people off when they're just getting to know each other.
[–]AFCGirl 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
There are a few factors that might lead to friendzoning:
1) Lack of sexual attractiveness. This is the big one.
2) Desire to not hurt the guy's feelings. Really, do you expect her to say "You're ugly, no one will ever love you, and you should die alone. In a fire."? Granted, constructive criticism is probably better, but it's hard for people give and accept it, even when they realize that.
3) Your suspicion is correct in at least some cases. I friendzoned a guy once because I knew that I'd never be able to break up with him, and it would have meant the end of my singlehood. Most of the time it's a combination of 1) and 2), though.
[–]jamonman 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
So what constitutes sexual attractiveness? That's the crux of the question here.
[–]AFCGirl 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The core idea, I think, is making me believe that the sex will be good. I believe that this is even more important for women than for men as a direct result of having lower sex drives. For us, sex is not like pizza: Bad sex is worse than no sex.
Some of the things that affect this make logical sense. Others are more abstract and probably come from some kind of evolutonary genetic fitness cues.
What constitutes sexual attractiveness in a woman? I think there's a lot of variation on preference here. Here is a list of things that I have noticed have had a marked effect on mens' attractiveness to me:
Visible muscularity. Competitive bodybuilder types are a bit too much, but a nice set of abs and some visibly defined arm/leg muscles are very sexy.
A nice face. This one is hard to quantify. I think that the shape of the eyes has a lot to do with it. I have also noticed that men often become more attractive when they smile.
Facial hair: The same guy is pretty consistently more sexy with a short beard than clean-shaven. I agree very much with this article. A 5-o-clock shadow is good. So is a short beard. If it gets long enough to comb it becomes less sexy.
Body hair that isn't too heavy is also a turn-on, although it's less important than facial hair.
Physical competence is pretty huge. A guy doing shit like parkour is way more attractive than the same guy just standing around.
Appearing to be interested in sex, and/or attracted to me. This is fairly logical: If I think you're going to be enthusiastic about having sex with me, then it will likely be better. I have also become more attracted to men who I find out are compatibly kinky, or who are historically good in bed.
As a corollary to the previous point, I think this is why kino is so effective.
[–]The_Cake_Is_A_Lie 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wonder why anybody would downvote you? Pretty fucked up uv suck to dv in such a tiny reddit
[–]notagain9092 points 15 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
The term 'nice guy' is misleading, it's not that these guys are nice it's that they come across as weak, submissive and insecure which is really unattractive. Girls think they should like the guy because he's nice but obviously they aren't attracted to him because he's in 'nice guy' mode. It can be confusing for girls that don't know about pickup especially when the nice guy tendencies are more subtle.
[–]rustoof 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The problem with the "nice guys aren't really nice guys, they're weak guys" is how amazingly effective asshole game is
[–]notagain9093 points 15 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
I don't see the problem.. Nice guys get upset when they see assholes doing well and they assume it's because the guy is being an asshole when really it's the confidence/dominance that's doing it for him.
[–]rustoof 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Believe me, you don't do asshole game well enough.
This whole "women like confident guys, and only douchebags are confident" is female bullshit rationalization.
Women like confident guys. Women also like assholes. Period.
[–]Doc5000 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
When you are doing the "dominance" thing, you are being an asshole. That is what being an asshole is, asserting dominance over others, especially when it is merely as part of some sort of manipulative strategy. It indicates a lack of sexual confidence. You can be very confident without being an asshole. People who are actually confident are not interested and do not need to to try to treat others like puppets.
You can be confident without being an ass, but it's kind of hard to be a confident male without being dominant, especially with a girl. I think you're confusing dominance with arrogance/force.
[–]Lanko 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
this is what I'm getting at when I say girls have an idea of what they "should" want.
[–]tanglisha 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I've never used this, but I think it's generally used as a gentle let down. For whatever reason (and it could be something she's not able to articulate), she likes that person and wants him in her life, she is just not attracted to that person.
[–]The_Cake_Is_A_Lie 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Hahaha wow I was just writing that exact same 'you're such a nice girl to someone.'. I want to leave everybody in a better mental state for having met me.
It used to just leave me confused. it gave me nothing to go on for what went wrong and how I could try to change things for next time and I was hearing it so often It was turning me into an angry bitter individual. (anything to keep from hearing "your so nice" again)
It's because of seddit and other pickup sources where I could start to get reliable feedback (or at least a reasonable guess/clue) as to what I was doing wrong that I was able to let go of that.
8
[–]rotund 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Definitely liked reading your responses here. Thanks for the input!
[–]FL_Sunshine 10 points11 points12 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
To answer for myself, with what has worked in a pick up sense (not a LTR), I can attempt to help. I'm attractive with a Type A personality:
LEARN TO READ BODY LANGUAGE.
That's the single biggest thing I can stress because most of the items that have worked with me require confidence, knowing how to keep my interest and touching at appropriate times. This is a very nuanced issue and can easily turn creepy if not done at the right time (hence the need for being able to read body language).
What piques & keeps my interest is strong conversational skills - someone who shows interest in me but is skilled enough at conversation to keep me from prattling endlessly about the crap I know you don't want to hear about and still manage to spew out. (Girls get nervous too you know)
Everyone likes a fun person. An ability to make me laugh is another strong way of keeping my attention.
The best PUA I've ever experienced kept eye contact and would physically get my back to the room (isolate me) and show avid interest in what I was saying. A hand on the knee, leaning in, etc. If she is leaning into you, mirror her! Pay attention to her 'go' signals.
My experience with the majority of people is that they really don't like to make decisions. Ever notice that when a group of people go to lunch together it's 30 minutes before everyone decides where to go? Women, like many men, like someone to take charge. I don't mean be an asshole and controlling, just make statements rather than questions:
"Let's get a drink" rather than "Can I get you a drink?"
It's subtle. She can still say no, but people really do seem to be relieved when someone else is capable of making decisions and taking the lead. I do believe that gender issues come into play. Even as a Type A personality I'm impressed by a man that steps up and handles a situation.
[–]JNile 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
So following from this, in what situations can a guy be too assertive? I'm assuming it depends upon the situation and the context, but how much control turns you off as a type A?
[–]FL_Sunshine 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ah and this is where you have to read body language. If I'm not digging you then the assertiveness is just you being a dickhead. You have to balance genuine interest in me to make it work. Don't assume I can't think (as in pick my drink for me). Each girl is going to have a different limit too. It's part of your confidence that makes it attractive. Unfortunately there's a really fine line between confidence and douchebaggery.
[–]DrTwitch 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A lot of guys I think enjoy talking to other guys about their problems with women. If I wanted a female perspective I could pick up a magazine, talk to any of the girls on facebook, etc. But getting good advice from males, who don't know you, who have been where you want to go.... Is more useful. This movement started as a sorta counter-culture against the women dominate relationship advice field. Why would I want to dilute it?
Furthermore women are claiming to be critiquing their experiences with PUAs. However unless there are millions and millions of practising PUAs out there (and there really isn't) I doubt you have. I believe women are labelling naturals as PUAs.
The advice you gave, I could of quite easily found amongst PUA material already. It's pretty standard. So if you can't offer new advice, or you can't share some type of learning experience, then what can you offer?
Men and women are coming from different places. All you have to do is turn up, look pretty, and try to contribute to the conversation. You may have judged more men then the worlds best PUA, but you haven't communicated a usable experience to anywhere near as many men who are clueless. You haven't been through that many rejections and found a way to keep your world intact. You're the source of a flakiness, but you've never had to deal with it. You can see how others think that women can't articulate their emotional needs. This may or may not be true. But it's a view from after having asked women for advice that led to frustration. That couldn't mesh with a MENS EXPERIENCE of reality.
I am not saying that you don't have valid ideas. I am just trying to say that we congregate here, rather then at women dominated forums in order to obtain conversation without... women.
[–]geneveve4 points 15 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The majority of PUA technique works on me.
The one suggestion I have read on here that I do not respond favorably to (personal preference) is talking to your target set after talking to everyone else in the bar. I do not see it as complimentary and will immediately not be interested.
This is the same if a guy opens my friends and talks to me (assuming I'm the target, humor me here) last. Instead of being intrigued and wanting to talk to him, I just find myself bored and will not be interested by the time he gets around to me.
This is definitely my personal preference as I'm sure the technique works just fine on most women.
I agree with everything else that is given as typical PUA methods. Especially "let's meet on Friday for drinks." It is so frustrating to have a string of texts back and forth to try to make plans because the initial message was, "When are you free to hang out?"
[–]ThundarPawnch 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link
Seduction is hard.
Just today, while I was working a guy I thought was cute came in. He went and sat down and I a bit later I went by him.
"Hey! How is everything?" "Great, thank you."
Damn. What now? Oh well, walk away.
...
No, wait, what's wrong with me? I have balls of STEEL!
"My name is [name], by the way." "Oh, my name is Doug." "Yeah, I know... I brought you your food..." "Yeah..." "Nice to meet you." "Nice to meet you, too."
Damn.
When he left he went out the back door (the door he was sitting at and parked near, it would have been weird had he came up front) I guess he didn't like me that much.
Guys... it's in your hands, now. http://mynumbermeansnothing.blogspot.com/
[–]shponglespore 6 points7 points8 points 15 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link
It sounds like you're trying to use the same techniques on men that men use on women. That won't work. You have to be WAY more obvious if you want a guy to realize you're interested in him. Men generally aren't expecting unsolicited advances from women, and it's a lot harder to see things you're not expecting.
if he went out the back door, it sounds like she was TOO obvious. honestly, i hate it when a girl is making it blatantly obvious that she's into me... it comes across as try-hard and often a little creepy, like she's going to never leave me alone if i give her my number.
girls, your best bet is to signal that you're open, maybe initiate conversation if you're so incline, but after that, it's really up to whether the guy likes you, and whether he has the balls to do something about it.
you can't make the guy start pursuing you... but if he does, and you're into him, all you can do is make it easier for him (laugh at his jokes, playfully touch him, etc).
oh yea, and put out.
[–]geneveve1 points 15 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
This is very difficult for me to balance as a girl. Around a lot of seddit I hear that an assertive girl is attractive because she is telling you what she wants. But I find it difficult to pull off and it ends up being a turn-off; as the guy feels the girl is coming on too strong or is "catching feelings" too quickly.
I just assume if a guy isn't talking to me then he's not interested. Initiating anything makes me feel desperate.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Just as you shouldn't rely on women to tell you how to pick up women, because what they think they want isn't necessarily what they want, you also shouldn't rely on men to tell you how to pick up men.
Men think they want someone assertive, but that's just because they're not assertive enough and think they want someone else to do the work for them.
However in reality, it can be a turn off, as you've described. I would stick with the general rule that if a man ignores you, he's either not interested or he's a big pussy. Try to engage him in conversation if you really want to, but don't push too hard.
[–]ThundarPawnch -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, he was parked in the back, and sitting back there.
I'm mostly attracted to the nerdy type... who are often quite shy. I've had a lot of success saying hi first.
[–]ThundarPawnch 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
How should I go about "picking up" men?
[–]shponglespore 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
I probably shouldn't be answering because nothing I can tell you is field-tested, but what the hell. I'm one of those shy nerdy guys you say you're into, so I can tell you what might work on me.
If you're at a bar, club, party, etc., you probably can act like a man picking up a woman. Some guys probably won't like it, but other guys will be thrilled that someone else is doing all the work. I would be. If you're lucky, the guy will just take over from there, but if he doesn't start escalating, just keep going until you get his phone number. Or drag him home and fuck him right then if you want to. If you do that and he's the kind of guy who takes that much coaxing, he will come back for more if you let him.
Dealing with a customer is different. If he's an introvert like me, he'll be focused on something inside his own head, and if you try to strike up a casual conversation, he'll shut you down pretty fast because he's not there to make smalltalk, and he's probably good at deflecting it without paying much attention. You need to do something to snap him out of it. Try complimenting his clothing, and if that doesn't work, tell him he's cute, sexy, hot, or whatever. At that point he'll definitely realize what's going on, and he'll size you up to decide if he's interested.
Once you're sure you've got his attention and he seems interested, you can go ahead and flirt. If he's not too shy, you'll be in good shape. If he is too shy, try to make plans with him then and there, or ask for his phone number. Don't give him your number unless he asks for it, because if he's too shy to ask, he'll also be too shy to call some random stranger who gave him her phone number. Once you have his number, call or text him whenever it's convenient for you. He will definitely remember who you are.
[–]ThundarPawnch 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I actually had some success a few days ago. A regular-ish costumer who I had thought was cute, but too shy to say anything came in. I was working in the kitchen at the time and just so happened to look at the lobby and I saw him. I made his order and went out of the kitchen (we were out of lunch rush, so it was okay).
"Jonathon?" "That's me." "Hi. My name is ThundarPawnch, I've been meaning to say hi to you, but I've been too shy. Would you like ketchup?" "Yeah. And, yeah, I've been there before."
It ended with me giving him my number, and we've been hanging out a bit. We haven't done anything, yet. He's pretty shy. Haha.
[–]shponglespore 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Good work! It sounds like he thinks you just want to be friends, probably because that's what he's used to. Fortunately men don't have a "friend zone" you can get stuck in. Arrange to be alone with him for a while and start escalating. You could probably just start kissing him, but since you don't know how he feels about aggressive women, it's probably better to start subtle and work your way up.
OR...you can probably figure out how he feels about aggressive women from this taste in TV and movies. See if he likes stuff with badass female characters. Or ask him which character from Battlestar Galactica he'd most like to fuck. (The correct answer is Starbuck, BTW.) Or tell him you're a big fan of Joan Jett and see what he says.
[–]ThundarPawnch 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
No, I made it pretty obvious that I like him, he says he's trying to figure me out first. Heh.
Hmmm... We've been playing MvC3, and he has X-23 on his team. He even likes her better than Wolverine. He also likes Trish. Maybe that's a good sign? Haha.
[–]shponglespore 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Hmm, game characters are tricky because there are almost always reasons for choosing characters besides aesthetics. Back when I used to play Street Fighter II with my friends, Chun-li was very popular just because she was the fastest.
Anyway, it seems like you've been a step ahead of me every time I try to give you any advice, so I'm gonna STFU before I tell you to do something really stupid. You know what you're doing more than some stranger on the internet. Go with your gut, and don't take every minor defeat as a sign that you're doing something wrong, because 95% of the time it's not.
[–]ThundarPawnch 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No! I'm glad you gave me the advice. Even though I'm a step ahead it shows I'm thinking in the right direction and I've been doing it right.
Good sir, have an orangered. And some upvotes.
[–]shponglespore 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Aw, thanks. Feel free to PM me if you want some more questionable advice. It's kind of fun.
[–]un1verse 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Make eye contact and hold it for a few seconds. If he looks at you again later, make sure to make the eye contact again and smile a bit. If he doesn't get it at that point then you don't want him.
[–]ThundarPawnch 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's not true.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
simply smile at them. usually they'll get the message.
if they don't make an effort to engage you, then they're probably either not interested or they're just big pussies.
it's in men's inherent instincts to chase after the things they want, women most of all. if he's interested, it'd be hard for him to NOT chase.
You weren't around when I posted a while ago were you?
Besides, I don't play games, and I live for regret. If I don't say "hi" I hate myself.
i'm just saying, if you push too hard and show too much interest, they'll think you're a stage-5 clinger.
[–]shponglespore 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Sorry, you're wrong.
Lots of guys just don't know what the fuck they're doing. Either they miss IOIs entirely, or they ignore them because they know if they respond they'll just end up having an awkward conversation that goes nowhere. That doesn't mean they're pussies, it means they need need skills they don't even know they're missing because everyone tells them to just "be themselves" with women.
In my experience, being a pussy is the biggest cause of being an AFC.
Literally the most important lesson in PUA is to go out at every opportunity, put yourself into new and initially uncomfortable situations, and being more confident and ballsy than normal.
I disagree that PUA is about not being yourself. The emphasis on canned material only exists to convince AFCs to get out of the house. To become a natural, all you need is to be ballsy and quit second-guessing yourself. All the other shit doesn't matter once you've found your own style though experience.
No amount of reading will EVER make up for lack of time in the field, so if someone is making excuses that prevent them from going out and meeting new people, then yes, they are being a pussy.
In the case of ThunderPawnch, I'm assuming she doesn't want to waste time with AFCs... I mean, who would? Alpha males will respond to a smile, or else they're not worth her wasting her time on.
Maybe you've always known what to do long before you had the confidence to actually do it, but your experience is not universal. Acting ballsy without the skills to back it up makes you creepy, not sexy. Getting out and doing maybe be the most important thing, but it's not the only important thing. If it was, there would be no use for a forum like Seddit or any other PUA material because there would be nothing to talk about.
[–]sosueme 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You sound pretty young... that is likely why guys around you are hemming and hawing, I bet they are young too. Until I was 23 most of my "seductions" were mostly blind luck / "fool's mate" on the account that women thought I was cute. I kinda got an idea around 23 - 24 as to what to do. Varies by person of course. Yet the yung uns.... umm, them could go and buy themselves a clue.
Here ya go
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