This is disappointing to read:

Mister_3177 · 2025-01-09T17:43:56+00:00

"What has MRAs done for men?"

start up abused men's shelters that pseudo-feminists close down

vegetables-10000 · 2025-01-09T17:05:22+00:00

They always ignore the part where Feminists become obstacles for any men's rights movement that tries to start up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/s/kFYLjo2Eyp

FreeRazzmatazz4613 · 2025-01-09T18:15:33+00:00

There is no use in discussing it. Until our culture stops demonizing boys and shaming men .we are doomed to not move forward..

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2025-01-09T17:20:26+00:00

This person has no understanding of where the term toxic masculinity originated.

They should do some studying since their fellow feminists are using it completely wrong.

Upper-Divide-7842 · 2025-01-09T19:04:57+00:00

Sam Sedar is a fucking retard. CMV

They think MRA's worship the patriarchy (something we don't believe in) and tell men to 'man up' because they are confusing us with Red Pillers.

The only form of mens advocacy feminists or the mainstream give any oxygen to. And they do this precisely BECAUSE the views of the red pill are cringe and easily dismissed.

Ironically though this only fuels the rise of the red pill because it's the only alternative to the equally absurd and bigoted feminist hegemony that gets any public presence.

Edit: actually, to be fair to feminists and mainstream liberals, they're not solely responsible for this. Conservatives simp hard to the red pill as well due to it's thin veneer of social conservatism.

As for Mens rights organisations you have CAFE you have the ICMI and many others they're a little thin on the ground compared to feminist orgs but then, they don't receive literally hundreds of millions in government money on a yearly basis.

2025-01-09T19:32:40+00:00

Comment sections are hostile places, especially around politics. It's filled with bots, children, boomers, or otherwise weird individuals. There are rarely good faith, productive conversations that happen. In cases like the one provided, the commenter is effectively the product of terminally online echo chambers that operate with a misandrist worldview.

Overall, I wouldn't pay it any mind. To answer the question, however, the commenter is technically right that a previous men's movement known as the "Mythopoetic men" coined the term "toxic masculinity." Though it willfully leaves out how the terminology has changed throughout the years and the fact that the mythopoetic men were self-described apoliticals.

The "Mythopoetic Men" movement began in the 80's, citing spiritualism through tribal-like rituals as a method of obtaining "deep masculinity," an idea of a "lost" form of masculinity that existed before the industrial revolution. The mythopoetics asserted the loss of spiritual masculine gatherings turned men into "destructive, hypermasculine chauvinists, or, in the opposite direction, have become too feminized." However, the movement itself was self-described as "apolitical," and even received backlash from feminists organizations (typical). It eventually died out in the 90's. While the movement makes some interesting points about the role of men post industrial revolution, it makes a sweeping generalization about men that leaves a sour taste in my mouth, personally.

The term "toxic masculinity" does not mean, today, what the mythopoetics described though. I would say feminists use it in a way to describe (their view of) men's "hegemonic status," or dominance over society. Conversely, the mythopoetics viewed toxic masculinity as a way of describing men's position in the world after the industrial revolution, where they were bound to a suit and tie. It would be far-fetched to say that the etymology of "toxic masculinity" has not changed in the last ~40 years.

For the commenter to make the argument that men's movements have stopped talking about the feminist-coded version of "toxic masculinity" while ignoring its origins implies bad faith. It's taking surface level information and not bothering to dig a little deeper and understanding the distinction between two different usages of a word. With this, the commenters argument negatively phrases beliefs within the MRA movement to create some "point" about their alleged ineffectiveness.

First, they claim that Men's movements have stopped talking about "toxic masculinity." While it's true that many MRA movements reject the modern notion of "toxic masculinity," a term that positions men as inherently violent, this does not mean that positive aspects of masculinity are not actively promoted.

The commenter then tries to link the modern, feminist-coded interpretation of "toxic masculinity" to the one created by the mythopoetics, as if to (falsely) emphasize that it was something the movement has once believed in.

Then, the commenter shifts attitude, claiming that feminists are now wholly responsible for dealing with this "issue" of modern, feminist-coded "toxic masculinity." The aforementioned false casting of the mythopoetic "toxic masculinity" into the feminist-coded version is used to make modern MRA movements appear hypocritical, or somehow worse than they once were. The commenter then emphasizes their belief of how big of an issue "toxic masculinity is," reaffirming their misguided narrative of MRA's.

Overall, I just wouldn't listen to people like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men%27s_movement

thereslcjg2000 · 2025-01-09T18:35:40+00:00

If I recall correctly, “toxic masculinity” was coined by the Mythopoetic Men’s Movement, a movement founded by men but not associated in any way with the Men’s Rights Movement.

I’m not an expert on the actions of the MRM, but I do know it has set up shelters for abused men as well as filing lawsuits against certain discriminatory organizations (notably selective service).

hefoxed · 2025-01-09T18:24:37+00:00

People judge movements based of the most annoying, loudest people in the movement on all sides. Both for feminism and MRA issues are some extremely sexists loud people who's voices can dominate the dialogue.

IIRC Toxic masculinity was conned by a man within a movement that could be considered men's rights but probably not "Men's Rights" (as in that's not how it labeled itself)

But, a movement conning a term or phrase that is itself bad isn't specific to men's issues . Some feminist use "toxic femininity" without realizing the issue with it either. As a transguy, we've been through so many damn terms since I first started looking into trans stuff two decades ago with some being deemed bad; as a programmer, I liked the "trans*" but that was deemed bad because it was conned by a cis person.

Anyhow, the term took off because of feminism and usage of it was done while ignoring the voices of those negatively effected by the term.

[Internalized] Misandry is what I'm using instead for toxc masculinity. It's not stigmatizing. Misogyny we use for toxic expectations of female gender role.

That whole "Shut up about the hurt we cause cause sometimes we sometimes give you a little bit of attention" is ... an abusive dynamic?

overcookedsoull · 2025-01-09T18:04:56+00:00

I might also add that Sam Seder is a fucking tool who plays on men's insecurities by promoting companies that sell phoney hair loss treatments during his show.

eternal_kvitka1817 · 2025-01-09T18:17:09+00:00

Feminists have been cancelling men's rights activism. What can they do?

CaptSnap · 2025-01-09T20:26:29+00:00

Youre shitting me right?

Toxic masculinity is a perfect case study in how feminism "helps" men by demonizing and hating them based on the absolute flimsiest of nonsensical bullshit...just any fucking thing they can find to build up and shit on men with.

Even the heavily feminist curated wikipedia page for Toxic Masculinity cant hide it.

Lets answer your questions first and I think after some of the facts you can go back to the wiki page and see what Im talking about.

In the first screenshot, the commentator makes a point about the 'toxic masculinity' being a term from 'MRA movements'.Is this really true?

No, thats absolute bullshit. Like verifiably completely wrong.

Dr Shepherd Bliss did lead the mythopoetic approach and he did coin that term but he was NOT a men's right's activist. What he was...was a feminist hippy that found a niche. He could ahve been the first /r/menslib mod for as much as he genuinely care for or liked men. His only credential to speaking about men was he happened to be a man. He was a minister in the army and then studied psychology and taught psychology. He seems nice enough and Im not here to discredit him but I will say for certain he was goddamn sure not a men's rights activist, not then and not now.

Further, I want to add here that if you dont take Dr Peterson (also a psychologist) seriously because he says shit out of his area of expertise (again, also goddamn psychology) then you should smack the shit out of people that take Dr Shepherd seriously. for fucking real

That aside, this is a quote from his article that was printed in (no shit) the Yoga Journal in 1986 (emphasis mine)source Again the author is Dr Bliss the originator of "toxic masculinity" the fucking bedrock upon which so much feminist scholarship rests:

The feminist men’s perspective is represented by the National Organization of Changing Men (NOCM)........In the early 1980s there emerged another alternative vision of what it means to be a man: the mythopoetic approach. This approach looks to ancient mythology and fairytales, to Jungian and archetypal psychology, and to poets and teachers like Robert Bly and James Hillman. <--Dr Shepherd is here (I didnt write that shit about the Mythopoetic approach to discredit his ideas as folktail fairy bullshit, the son of a bitch said that himself...that really was what it was about. Thats as serious in a gender social science discussion as anyone ever fucking meant the term.

Not only is Dr Bliss a feminist (vs an MRA), but he is not even in the "academic" feminist camp. I really want that to be absolutely clear.

further:

In addition to these two primary trends within the men’s movement, other groups also exist. For example, the Free Men Coalition and the National Congress of Men represent the men’s rights advocates, many of whom are divorced fathers concerned with child custody issues. Many of these men are angry at women, whom they see as oppressing them. <---Dr Shepherd is NOT here, no stretch of the imagination could put him here.

So what Dr Shepherd would do is go to places where lonely guys would seek out answers and common experiences and try to find understanding and camaraderie and shit feminist all over them, just like /r/menslib and then read goddamn fairy tales and sing kumbaya. (Ok Im shitting on him a little bit here but thats pretty much the fucking authority all this bullshit rests on)

So thats how Id respond... the term is from about as far from academic rigor as you can possibly get, it belongs more in the realms of stories of Odin or Perseus than any reasonable discussion about reality. Its just barely above complete bullshit for all the relation it has to fucking reality.

When youre having a discussion about masculinity or maleness and someone brings it up you should assume they're as fucking stupid as if you were discussing quadratic equations and someone brings up Gandalf's thoughts on the eagles; completely fucking irrelevant and batshit.

But thats the foundation of feminists help men too.

Heres a passage from the Atlantic if you want to see how Toxic Masculinity is used (even though feminists will say its never used this way):

Bliss had grown up in a punishing military household with a domineering father, and he meant the new term to connote “behavior that diminishes women, children, other men,” a way “to describe that part of the male psyche that is abusive.”

It was a potent phrase, one that expressed something that had never had a name—that there is a particular poison that runs in the blood of some men and poses a deep threat to women, children, and the weak.

Basically a storyteller hippy went came up with a word and now I have to deal with society thinking Im tainted with poison and basically born with original sin my whole fucking life because feminism really gives a shit about men.

Do I sound like someone thats been given a shit about? Sometimes it feels like the Emporer's New Clothes where everyday the feminist tailors spin out more absolute complete hate-filled lunacy and Im supposed to nod my head like oh yeah, thats really fucking helpful and so amazingly cemented in reality...like not twisted and deranged even a little bit...it perfectly encapsulates my experience as a living human man.

I can recall so clearly the day as a young man I decided I need to subjugate all women so that I felt more myself and not only did I have this experience but all men everywhere across all of fucking time and space in all cultures and lands and history (no fucking shit, thats literally what hegemonic masculinity is). All men everywhere just wake up one day and think, "must subjugate females." People with PhD's wrote that crap down and did not lose their fucking jobs nor get laughed out of society. Feminists didnt even think they were joking, they were just like... yeah that sounds like men. We help men, so lets go with that!

What in the fucking fuck?

MAVP1234 · 2025-01-10T00:14:53+00:00

Just a couple of my own thoughts on this:

Language: We (men) need to stop using their language to discuss men's issues. The term toxic-masculinity is a hollow term and made up. I don't care for it and I try not to use it. I have boycotted Gillette for their toxic masculinity ads.
Discussion: Feminists love to 'discuss' men and they like to draw us in - get us to be a part of their discussions. However, i don't believe we need to engage with feminists at all. Men should be having discussions about men's issues with other men. Forget the feminist movement. Start our own conversations. Start setting the boundaries and narratives that we accept.

Without us engaging they have nothing.

Feminism has failed to 'liberate men'. And do we even need 'liberation'? Live your life according to your own values and don't get trapped in discourse that aims to position you as the other. Smile and nod and go to the gym or read a book.
Let women discuss this made up term toxic-masculinity. They can discuss it forever. it doesn't exist. The word will die as soon as we no longer accept their language to define us.

As for MRA, there are groups out there but often we are too fractured and disprate to organise anything. So we all do our own thing and its ineffective for the most part. MRA get dismissed by feminist groups as white angry men who can't adjust to the new world....whatever...just keep going. Keep supporting and advocating for mens rights!

parahacker · 2025-01-10T00:15:45+00:00

Why did MRA's stop using the term "toxic masculinity?"

Because feminists hijacked the term and turned it into "men are toxic."

It is a slur now. In common usage, it is an insulting a derivative phrase, nothing like its original intent.

That's why.

OldCardiologist66 · 2025-01-09T19:54:19+00:00

What video is this? I’m in the mood to be frustrated by everyone in that video

AfghanistanIsTaliban · 2025-01-10T07:13:23+00:00

Toxic masculinity isn’t well-defined for us to throw it as much as feminists do. There are MSM/print articles strongly hinting at meat-eating or exercise being symptoms of toxic masculinity.

That leaves me wondering… why aren’t makeup and fast fashion considered to be manifestations of toxic femininity? They are clearly feminized behaviors. The former is a symptom of excessive vanity/decadence. The latter is also literally toxic to our air and water. Toxic femininity is wrecking the planet just as men eating meat does.

Media loves talking about “men in crisis” because the profit incentive has been made. More and more men are realizing how bad it is for them such that the media can’t gaslight them about it anymore. Any media blackout at this point would be disastrous in the age of independent media. So the media just lists all of the depressing statistics but they won’t say what caused them, and they will try to downplay the problem. And if they list the causes, they invite feminist professors because feminism is the word of God to them. The feminist-aligned superstructure is going full damage control after “male loneliness crisis” turned into a meme (in the Dawkins sense). They know that the status quo is about to go

Brief_Concentrate346 · 2025-01-10T22:36:20+00:00

Might it be that the current MRA movement is less about helping men than it is about trying to keep women down?

Never in my life have I ever seen such a blatant and obvious example of projection

NonbinaryYolo · 2025-01-11T05:17:22+00:00

Do you know what? When I was going through shit this year the ONLY person to express any worry about me was a racist afghan vet I'd just called a piece of shit two months prior.

I'm friends with a literal psychologist, and the only one that checked up on me is a dude that's racist.... and has been in active combat.

Also check this out! I practice stoicism, which is considered toxic masculinity by the American Psychological Association, and earlier this week I offered to be emotional support to 3 different people, two men, and a woman.

My last job was in a Conservative work place. It was a coworker's final day, and we threw a party for him, and he cried. And in a room full of bullshiters that love to rip on each other, not one fucking person shamed that man.

Toxic masculinity is just a fucking gender stereotype to hold over men's heads, and redirect any blame for men's issues to patriarchy.

The thing that really pisses me off is that if we were going to start confronting men's mental health issues, raising awareness about the 1 in 3 men that face domestic abuse would be the FIRST step. Sitting around telling men they need to open up, when a third of men are getting abused with no recognition is fucking nonsense.

hendrixski · 2025-01-10T13:08:30+00:00

We're basically mistaken for antifeminists at this point. How can you have a conversation about achieving equality for men and boys if it's always actually a conversation about women and feminism?

ParanoidAgnostic · 2025-01-10T13:18:08+00:00

Toxic masculinity is a valuable concept. Unfortunately, the term has been poisoned by misuse, primarily by feminists.

Toxic masculinity is not a list of bad behaviours. The very same masculine qualities which are toxic in some cases are positive in others. The difference is in your reason for expressing those qualities.

Are you choosing them as a genuine expression of your personality or because they are helpful to you, those you care about or humanity in general? Then they are positive masculinity.

Do you feel forced into them by society's expectations and the consequences of not meeting them? Then they are toxic masculinity.

However, this nuance is lost because, in common usage, "toxic masculinity" just means "male-coded things which are bad."

Snoo_78037 · 2025-01-10T13:20:39+00:00

It's crazy she thinks MRAs came up with toxic masculinity. When it has nothing to do with MRAs. It's actually feminists that have a history of coming up with words that gender non gendered behaviour. It's MRAs that have pushed back against phrases like toxic masculinity, mansplaining, manslaming, manspreading, manterupting that place unnecessary blame on men. Feminists love to project.

IllustriousBowl4316 · 2025-03-31T16:13:45+00:00

In Spain They formed an association to help men Who are in the situation of Domestic Violence and the progressive party tried to shut it down.... Luckily they didn't manage to do so... But it doesn't receive any grant from the state, unlike associations to help women in this same situation, so they depend on donations in order to keep it at float...

Ok-Calligrapher1857 · 2025-01-10T01:21:41+00:00

They do have some kinda point about MRA's spending too much time criticizing feminism. And that's kinda what they hate about feminism doing to men. Right now r/mensrights is buzzing about that nurse who was breaking newborn boys' bones, and half the comments are "and they don't call it a hate crime because it's a woman" or "imagine if it was a man doing this to girls, the world would go nuts."

So, why hasn't a petition been made? Someone should search records of nurses who have abused children of a specific gender to perhaps identify a pattern, then present that alongside a petition to whatever court is handling that woman's trial, the state, or maybe even the supreme court, and argue that cases such as these, where there is a pattern of gender related targeting, should be considered hate crimes. Do something to spread the word, actually fight the good fight, mobilize the people in the subreddit to do something instead of just complaining to already likeminded people.

Title	This is disappointing to read:
Author	jollywood234007
Upvotes	90
Comments	69
Date	January 9, 2025 12:43 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1hxby8k/this_is_disappointing_to_read/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/this-is-disappointing-to-read.1540743 https://theredarchive.com/post/1540743

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