It’s not your job to make someone feel safe. You are not obligated to make someone feel safe just because you are a man. If someone feels unsafe simply because you exist, that’s their problem, not yours.

[–]Karkota_24Rollno 118 points119 points120 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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Oh yeah I agree, it's just that words have meanings and usages, which is why literally can mean both literally, and literally the opposite of literally, depending on the dm context ;)

The common refrain is that if as a man you don't support the leftist political agenda you're a misogynist and every kind of - ist and - phobe under the sun, because those words are used to shame people and shut them up, regardless of their meaning.

Meanwhile they'll tell you to your face that misandry don't real, because it doesn't line up with the feminist leftist dogma of men always being the oppressors and women always being oppressed.

Grammatically the mis- antecedent means hatred of, and the - phobe suffix means the fear of, but again words have meanings (definitions) and usages (how people use words and what they mean by them), and the two don't always align ;)

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because it is mostly MEN who are commiting such acts, or are joking about/defending those who DO. even if you say that women can sa, kill, abuse etc. (which is objectively true btw) it is almost always other men who will say shit like "where was she when I was younger! so lucky!" or "i can fix her" or maybe even something like "youre gay for getting raped" whenever a story about a conventionally attractive woman doing something awful to a man, it is mostly other men who victim blame them/fetishize the situation. yes men have their own struggles and everything, but if you are getting mad at women for not feeling safe around you esp when every. single. man. in their life has abused or mistreated them, or would gladly defend those who do, then maybe call those men out so women will actually feel safe around you instead of bitching and moaning about it on reddit

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My first ever intimate contact with a woman that I can remember was of being in the bathtub with my Mom. It wasn't until years later that I understand it was sexual abuse. It got a lot worse as I got older and finally my father got custody. She was emotionally manipulative and beat me and my siblings.

My second and last intimate time with a woman was with my one girlfriend. It was nice until she did something that triggered me and I had a panic attack. She kicked me out of her apartment and physically assaulted me when I told her why I panicked.

With all that in mind, can you possibly imagine what it feels like when a man like me has women responding in fear of my mere existence for fear that I may be the predator? Can you for just thirty seconds put yourself in my shoes?

I was the prey of the most important woman in my life, and she gave me these wounds. Now some women in society unfairly look at me like I'm the predator, and that just throws salt into them.

[+]RbugMZ -13 points-12 points-11 points 1 year ago (13 children) | Copy Link

First, I'm so sorry you went through those horrible experiences. None of it was your fault, and it makes you no less of a man. Those women- who were supposed to protect you, care for you, and support you- failed you on every level.

I want to say this as gently as possible, as I can definitely understand where you're coming from; women who respond to you in fear or weariness do so because they don't know you. They don't know about your past and they don't know that you wouldn't do something like that. Many women have been sexually harassed/assaulted by men, or know other people who have been sexually harassed/assaulted by men. We have been raised to be hyper-aware in public places in order to protect ourselves and prevent ourselves from becoming victims to the best of our abilities. In certain situations, we can't just assume everyone has good intentions. It's not meant to be an insult- it's a defense mechanism.

Like you said, it is absolutely unfair. It's unfair that men who sexually harass/assault others ruin people's lives in more ways than one- they obviously harm their victims, but they also create harmful narratives that result in widespread fear/distrust of a group of people based on their gender (men). The same goes for female perpetrators. If you were to say that you feel uneasy around women, you would be absolutely justified. A big difference is that female perpetrators are less common than male perpetrators, so people tend to generalize this behavior towards men more often.

My point is that I understand why this bothers you and other men- it must really hurt to be seen as a threat just because of your gender. I suggest directing your frustration towards people who commit sexual harassment/assault rather than the people who are victims or are worried about becoming victims. Again, I'm sorry about what you've been through. I'm glad your dad was there for you, and I hope you've been able to find some healing.

[–]grounder20 22 points23 points24 points 1 year ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[+]RbugMZ -10 points-9 points-8 points 1 year ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Of course, there are probably more female perpetrators than what's reported and I agree that a big reason is because male victims are not taken seriously and are told to "man up". It may take them a long time to even realize/accept that they were victims of abuse because of societies ideas surrounding male victims and female perpetrators. I also want to highlight that some men/boys are victims of male perpetrators and some girls/women are victims of female perpetrators. My overall point was that because most reported sexual harassment/assault involves male perpetrators, that causes society as a whole to generalize that people are more likely to be harmed by a man than a woman. This doesn't erase the fact that both men and women are capable of sexual assault.

I never said that all women who fear men have been sexually assaulted. I said that many women know other people who have been assaulted, or have experienced it themselves. I also said that women are taught to be aware of their surroundings- this is regardless of whether or not they've experienced sexual assault or know anyone who has. There is not a "sudden fear of men"- this didn't start recently. People are just being more vocal about it.

then women get this idea that all men bad even though they haven’t had any bad experiences with men.

Women know that not all men are bad. The problem is that we don't know which ones are bad, so it's safer to be on alert than to let our guard down. Also, I would argue that we're not always afraid of men- sometimes we're just being cautious due to the circumstances, regardless of the gender of the people around us. I think it's unwise to assume that women who are cautious/afraid around men are all influenced by social media, or to assume that they haven't had bad experiences with men. I'm not exaggerating whatsoever when I say this, and you can choose to believe me or not, but myself and a wide majority of the women I know have had bad experiences with at least one man. And I don't mean "a man looked at me funny"- I mean various levels of harassment, abuse, sexism, disrespect, aggression, etc. This doesn't mean we hate men or think men are inherently bad. It's just difficult to assume every man has good intentions when you and like 90% of the women you know have had bad experiences with them.

[–]grounder20 12 points13 points14 points 1 year ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+]RbugMZ -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Race is not the same as gender. Racism is not the same as women being weary of men in certain situations. You're falsely equating power-based fear with prejudice-based racism. There are reasons why black people are overrepresented in crime statistics (racism in the justice system, over-policing in predominantly black neighborhoods, socioeconomic disparities), just like there are reasons why women are skeptical of men they don't know (over 50% of women have experienced sexual harassment, 1 in 3 women globally have experienced physical or sexual violence predominantly by men). Also, spare us both by trying to dispute those statistics. I've read the studies and links everyone in this sub uses to try to undermine the violence committed by some men, and they're all misconstrued at best, absolute bullshit at worst.

You're asking women to put your feelings over our safety. Trusting the wrong man can result in assault, rape, or death. We're just trying to survive, and if that offends you on a personal level then you're mad at the wrong people. Get mad at men who assault others, not the people who are trying to avoid becoming victims. I will not be replying further.

[–]BCRE8TVE 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Race is not the same as gender. Racism is not the same as women being weary of men in certain situations. You're falsely equating power-based fear with prejudice-based racism.

IE the double standard is not a double standard because we say so, and we can make up reasons to excuse the double standard.

There are reasons why black people are overrepresented in crime statistics (racism in the justice system, over-policing in predominantly black neighborhoods, socioeconomic disparities)

Fun fact, every single one of these also applies to men, women face jail sentences 60% shorter than men who commit the exact same crimes.

The justic system is also sexist, significantly more likely to jail, shoot, beat up, and abuse men vs women, but for some reason the disparity in police statistics only matters when it's black vs white, but when it's men vs women all of a sudden that doesn't matter.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2144002

just like there are reasons why women are skeptical of men they don't know (over 50% of women have experienced sexual harassment, 1 in 3 women globally have experienced physical or sexual violence predominantly by men).

And 1 in 6 men have been raped or abused, overwhelmingly by women, and this is likely significantly under-reported because many men like myself have been abused and raped, but literally could not recognize it because they've been taught their entire lives that abuse and rape was a thing women did to men, so it's impossible for them to be abused or raped by women.

https://1in6.org/

I've read the studies and links everyone in this sub uses to try to undermine the violence committed by some men, and they're all misconstrued at best, absolute bullshit at worst.

Right, so any studies that disagree with your preconceived notions are bullshit?

You're asking women to put your feelings over our safety.

80% of murder victims are men, 80% of violent assault victims are men, 50% of rape victims are men, and 50% of domestic aGet mad at men who assault others, not the people who are trying to avoid becoming victims. I will not be replying further.buse victims are men. What, do you think that the moment women stop being actively hostile to men, they'll get jumped and raped on every street corner? Really?

Besides, by what right do black people expect me to put their feelings over my safety?

We're just trying to survive, and if that offends you on a personal level then you're mad at the wrong people.

80% of murder victims are men, 75%+ of victims of suicide victims are men, men die more than women from virtually every single disease in the book, and worldwide men have a shorter life expectancy that women.

Try again.

Get mad at men who assault others, not the people who are trying to avoid becoming victims. I will not be replying further.

Yes yes, everything is men's fault and women are allowed and entitled to be as bigoted, sexist, and abusive towards men as they want, so long as women justify it by saying they're afraid.

And then you wonder why men don't take women's fears seriously.

[+]RbugMZ -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You’re confusing caution with bigotry. Women being wary of men in certain contexts isn’t “sexism”, it’s a survival response rooted in lived experience and overwhelming statistics. It’s not personal.

Yes, men face certain disadvantages. And yes, men face violence too- mostly from other men. The fact that men are more likely to be murdered, assaulted, or incarcerated says a lot about how men are socialized, how systems (set up and enforced predominantly by men) treat male behavior, and how patriarchy harms men too. But you’re misrepresenting that data by pretending women are the ones inflicting all this harm. A majority is other men, a smaller portion is women, and that should be addressed by targeting the reasons why instead of making it a competition.Yes, male victims are underreported and underserved, and that should also be addressed. But using that pain to dismiss women’s fear or to equate it to racism is a false and offensive comparison. Black people aren’t disproportionately hurting white people. Men are disproportionately harming women and each other.

1 in 6 men have been raped or abused

I absolutely believe more men are victims than are reported, and I empathize with what you've been through. You bring up the important point that people have been taught that only men abuse and rape so it's impossible for them to be abused or raped by women. That is an idea that needs to be abolished- women are absolutely capable of abuse and violence. It doesn't help at all to discredit women’s fear of male violence though. 1 in 6 is not “mostly” by women. The best available data (like from the CDC’s National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey) consistently shows that male victims are more often abused by other men, especially in childhood and institutional settings. So cherry-picking that stat and assuming the perpetrators are mostly women is incorrect and misleading.

Right, so any studies that disagree with your preconceived notions are bullshit?

No- any studies used out of context, without thorough and rigorous academic evaluation, that cannot be generalized to a wider population, are funded by biased sources, are outdated, are not peer reviewed, and/or lack reliability and validity are bullshit.

Yes yes, everything is men's fault and women are allowed and entitled to be as bigoted, sexist, and abusive towards men as they want, so long as women justify it by saying they're afraid. And then you wonder why men don't take women's fears seriously.

If that's the message you got from my comments, you need to do some deep reflection and learn some reading comprehension skills. A woman who moves her seat on the subway if a man is in her personal space or a woman who crosses the street if a man is walking behind her because she would rather not risk the statistically supported fact that a strange man is more likely to harass/assault/kill her, or if she has already experienced assault/harassment by a man, that is not sexism or abuse. If a woman harasses/assaults/abuses a man and then uses fear to justify her actions, that is totally different. I would maintain the same opinion if anyone felt unsafe around any gender- that includes a woman protecting herself from potential harm by another woman and a man protecting himself from potential harm by a woman or another man. People are allowed to remove themselves from situations that make them feel uneasy, and defend themselves if necessary.

You want empathy, and you got it from me. But you somehow lack it when it comes to women's experiences. The solution to distrust begins with accountability and understanding. Weaponizing male victimhood to shut down women’s safety concerns helps no one. Have a good day.

[–]Holiday_Twist8268 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]chubbycats657 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVE 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

women who respond to you in fear or weariness do so because they don't know you.

So if I respond to black people in fear or weariness because I don't know them, that's totally fine?

Many women have been sexually harassed/assaulted by men, or know other people who have been sexually harassed/assaulted by men.

Half the rape victims and half the domestic abuse victims are men, overwhelmingly at the hands of female abusers.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4062022/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article/14303-eng.pdf?st=G3YeIgkV

Why are women allowed to fear men and see men as rapists and abusers by default until and unless men prove otherwise, but men aren't justified to seeing women as rapists and abusers until and unless women prove otherwise?

We have been raised to be hyper-aware in public places in order to protect ourselves and prevent ourselves from becoming victims to the best of our abilities. In certain situations, we can't just assume everyone has good intentions. It's not meant to be an insult- it's a defense mechanism.

So it's all good if I have a defence mechanism against black people?

Like you said, it is absolutely unfair.

Well yes, it is unfair, and it is called misandry. For some reason it is categorically unacceptable to judge a group of people according to the worst few members of a group, except for men.

Odd double standard, isn't it?

It's unfair that men who sexually harass/assault others ruin people's lives in more ways than one- they obviously harm their victims, but they also create harmful narratives that result in widespread fear/distrust of a group of people based on their gender (men).

It's unfair that black people who assault or steal from others ruin people's lives in more ways than one- they obviously harm their victims, but they also create harmful narratives that result in widespread fear/distrust of a group of people based on their race (black people).

So it's totally fine to be racist against all of them, right?

A big difference is that female perpetrators are less common than male perpetrators, so people tend to generalize this behavior towards men more often.

No the difference is that female perpetrators have a multi billion dollar political machine called feminism erasing both male victims and female perpetrators, and constantly framing men as perpetrators and women as victims to further their political agenda, male victims be damned.

My point is that I understand why this bothers you and other men- it must really hurt to be seen as a threat just because of your gender. I suggest directing your frustration towards people who commit sexual harassment/assault rather than the people who are victims or are worried about becoming victims.

Right, so we should tell black people not to be upset at people who are racist, but to be upset at the other black people who caused those guys to be racist in the first place.

Makes total sense.

[+]No_Drag_7404 -28 points-27 points-26 points 1 year ago (24 children) | Copy Link

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[–]BCRE8TVE 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

were women enslaving men?

Men were never enslaving women. Slavery was and is featured in basically every single society on earth at some point in time, slavery existed in Africa before Europeans came, the British Empire was the first to outlaw slavery, and slavery continues to exist and be perpetuated to this day in Africa by Africans on other Africans. Stop reading feminist revisionist history.

were women moving to entirely different neighborhoods the second too many men moved in, leaving them in unkempt homes and poverty?

was the skin of men being used to make furniture?

What the fuck are you even on about?

Please, seek treatment, you need help. I'm serious, you need to speak to a therapist, and preferably not a feminist therapist who will just reinforce your delusions.

were women setting up laws and tests that prevented men from voting?

Well actually men did that to prevent other men from voting since the dawn of time too. You should read some real history books.

were women calling men slurs in the newspaper?

They're doing that today.

the mistreatment of men and black people are quite literally not the same, dude. please use your brain

Nobody said the mistreatement is the same, but the bigoted logic is the same. Treating all men like potential rapists and murderers because a few of them are is the exact same logic as treating all black people like potential gangsters and murderers because a few of them are.

Just because you can come up with excuses to justify the double standards, doesn't mean they aren't excuses and doesn't mean the double standards aren't hypocritical.

[–]chubbycats657 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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he brought it up in relation to the conversation about you guys (men) getting all pissy wissy that women dont feel safe around you even though the majority of people who rape, fetishize rape, defend rapists or joke about it are men, and not to mention he said that women feeling unsafe around him just makes him feel worse. so i quite literally. provided the solution to one of his problems, stop mistreating women, and even if you arent then call out those who do, and women will generally wont feel unsafe around you

my reply because the dude chickened out
most women do not trust men because the majority of rapists, rapist defenders, rape fetishists and misogynts, especially violent ones are men. this statement alone isnt saying that every single man is a sex offender just by being a man, but you guys quite literally make little to no effort to call out those who do. inaction is a form of negative action. if you saw someone getting stabbed, and didnt do as much as call the police, you are somewhat reponsible for that person losing their life. the bystander effect is a thing for a reason. if you just keep your mouth shut, or go NOT ALL MEN !!!! whenever a woman brings this up, you are a part of the issue.

[–]chubbycats657 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Glad-Way-637 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Jesus, you're just awful. Why do you choose to be here of all places, if you're gonna just go around telling sexual abuse victims how much they're gonna have to constantly put themselves into dangerous situations to not be seen as a monster by default by half the population? The best thing you can do, is leave and do your best not to subject anyone else to your presence, I think.

Besides, it doesn't actually work like that in the real world. Call out an asshole, cool, so what? The actual bigots that are going around lying to women about the realistic dangers of being around men won't stop, and you'll earn personhood in the eyes of any women who saw it, at the absolute best. Usually you'll still be on thin fucking ice, though. Word about good deeds is never as good at spreading as word about bad ones.

[–]BCRE8TVE 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

be the man a woman would choose over the bear, call out the men who mistreat, stalk, and abuse women. call out the men who defend others who hurt women.

Sooooo what about the women who call out the other women who mistreat, stalk, rape, and abuse men? Are men entitled to demand women do for men, the exact same thing women demand men do for women?

Or is it a one-way street and it's always men doing things for the benefit of women, and never the other way around? Remember, half the rape victims and half the domestic abuse victims are men, overwhelmingly at the hands of female perpetrators.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4062022/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article/14303-eng.pdf?st=G3YeIgkV

So when are the women going to start defending men against all the other abusive women out there?

. if more and more men did this instead of yelling "ITS NOT ALL OF US!!!!!" whenever a woman who has been constantly and consistently mistreated by men throughout her entire life ends up (sadly) generalizing an entire 50% of the human population and ignoring the actual issue at hand, more women would trust men in general. i am not in control of other people, but that is sadly the only thing you can do.

So women are entitled to be bigoted towards half the people on the planet because her feelings were hurt, but men who have been abused and raped by women are misogynistic woman-hating incels if they ever dare to have the exact same attitude.

You are not in control of other people, but the least you could do would be to stand up against misandry and bigotry instead of actively encouraging it.

[–]Holiday_Twist8268 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]fatuglybenny 15 points16 points17 points 1 year ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

I suggest you take another look into this subreddit. About a week ago a post was made criticizing the fact that women who prey on minors are often praised/perceived as desirable because of their gender, so we’re already doing that. Please don’t conflate men who excuse criminal acts with MRAs

(Edit): Here is the post since I’m stupid and forgot to include it

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1ll7joz/its_sickening_on_how_people_will_instantly_go/

We’re not mad at women for feeling unsafe for whatever reasons they may have, we just think that it shouldn’t be a man’s chief responsibility to go out of his way to make a woman feel safe just because of his gender. As long as he is minding his own business, doing his own thing, and isn’t behaving dangerously, he really shouldn’t be perceived as a threat.

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[–]BCRE8TVE 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

because it is mostly MEN who are commiting such acts

Half the domestic abuse victims and rape victims are men, overwhelmingly at the hands of female abusers.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4062022/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article/14303-eng.pdf?st=G3YeIgkV

Feminism has been lying and burying the truth for decades now.

or are joking about/defending those who DO.

Right, because nobody says #killallmen and nobody falsely accuses men of rape.

ven if you say that women can sa, kill, abuse etc. (which is objectively true btw) it is almost always other men who will say shit like "where was she when I was younger! so lucky!" or "i can fix her" or maybe even something like "youre gay for getting raped

So what you're saying is, those men who say "where was she when I was younger" and all that, are all victims of a system that systematically erases and invalidated male sexual abuse, so much so that male victims cannot even be recognized as victims?

Weird that when women are victims it's seen as a systematic problem society ought to bend over backwards to address, but when men are victims it's seen as either their own famn fault and men ought to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps with no expectation whatsoever of any help or sympathy from women.

Odd double standard.

yes men have their own struggles and everything, but if you are getting mad at women for not feeling safe around you esp when every. single. man. in their life has abused or mistreated them, or would gladly defend those who do, then maybe call those men out so women will actually feel safe around you instead of bitching and moaning about it on reddit

So what you're saying here is that women are always the biggest victims who are the mostetest oppressedest ever, and that men's issues are completely irrelevant in comparison, and that while men aren't entitled to women doing anything at all, not even entitled to women having the bare minimum amount of empathy and sympathy for their fellow human beings, women are apparently entitled to not only endless empathy and sympathy from men, but women are also entitled for men to bend over backwards and fix everything for women?

Odd double standards.

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The big thing is that there is a standard level of reasonable social expectation that one should not do something to make the environment they're in feel or be unsafe, but there's also a reasonable social expectation (that is often disregarded) that one should not treat people differently based on their immutable characteristics.

Someone merely being a man, non-white, disabled, and so on are not valid reasons for someone else to reasonably feel unsafe, and someone should not have to act differently to make others feel safe, no matter their immutable characteristics.

So I'm not gonna do something weird to a woman, but I'm also not gonna do that thing to a man, and I'd be just as upset if a man did that thing to me as I would be if a woman did. I naturally try to give people space when walking, and I expect space to be given to me. What I don't do is cross the street because I see someone who is bigger than me (and as a 5'5 man, most other men are bigger than me), and I also don't cross the street because I see a woman who is smaller than me. I have no reason to assume that someone who is bigger than me is dangerous, and someone who is smaller than me has no reason to assume that I am dangerous.

In general, you should always try to be polite and cordial in public, and you should also always look out for your safety. However, if you just so happen to be "looking out for your safety" more with people of some immutable characteristics than others, you are by definition profiling them, and you're either being too cautious (by being overly cautious toward people of a specific immutable characteristics) or actually being not cautious enough (being underly cautious toward people not of a specific immutable characteristic).

Hell, I actually am generally distrustful toward people I don't know, having learned at quite a young age that even the people you are supposed to trust can hurt and abuse you, but I also know that the average person is just a normal person and don't let my own trust issues treat others worse.

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Yes, contributing meaningfully to the actual safety of their environment by addressing significant threats that are in their power to address, and exercising prudence to avoid becoming a threat to others. It is not the job of mature individuals to tiptoe around other people feeling unsafe around them if they have no intention of causing harm to begin with, and aren't otherwise engaging in reckless behaviour that has the possibility of endangering others. It is the job of the person perceiving potential danger to rationally evaluate their situation and regulate their own emotions appropriately, instead of conflating their personal discomfort with actual danger and making it everyone else's job to regulate their emotions for them.

There is a balance to strike. Sometimes feeling unsafe means there's an actual threat and sometimes it doesn't. The person feeling unsafe doesn't always make the appropriate judgment call, and it's perfectly justified for OP to be fed up with being treated by default like a potential threat just because he's male, and to be expected to tiptoe around other people unjustifiably doing so on the basis of their "feelings" alone.

[–]TenuousOgre 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So how do you judge irrational vs rational safety standard? I'm an older white man, only 5’11”, but about as wide of shoulders as none I’ve ever met. Thick, muscular, strong. If I walk down street or along a park path in the dusk or the night, women will say I frighten them and should move to the other side of the road, or take a different path. They say this because there has been such a promotion from feminist sources that all men are abusive sexual misogynists who will attack them.

I know I won't. I'm old enough my natural reaction and training would be to stop that type of thing, defending them. They don't know that. But given the unrealistic beliefs feminists push, the women are afraid and expect me to change my behavior to accommodate them. They don't seem to give any thought to it being equally possible I would be attacked. Or that their desires are often impossible to meet.

I consider this an irrational request. So how do you evaluate to meet this supposed social standard?

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i dont want to have anything to do with them and I'm pretty sure plenty of women apparently don't want anything to do with me or men like me either, and Im not saying that "this is about what I get in return and maybe ill see if I do it" but its more like I know this people arent doing anything for me despite asking and asking for stuff and I'm pretty sure by my own experiences that most would take a mile if given an inch, tho I'm pretty sure feminists use the same arguments against men.

also I do engage in social niceties.,I don't have anything against helping kids, disabled, poor, racialised, or vulnerable people in general, but most women aren't in those categories, and they have enough men like you going above and beyond for them, so that's not my problem. and even if it was, I'm not helping people who hate me, loath me or distrust me just because, I don't owe them anything and neither do they owe me, and I want to keep it that way.

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But the person you first replied to didn't do anything to defy this logic, so I have to ask why you replied to them the way you did.

They made it clear that the situation they stated is in regard to the expectation to care and protect someone based on that person's own prejudices and nothing else.

It might make racists and sexists happy if a brown man is going out of their way to show they're safe "despite" their immutable characteristics, but it also reinforces racism and sexism by reinforcing the person's expectations that brown men should be held to a higher standard than white women. Of course, self preservation is one thing, and racists and sexists are usually the people who are actually dangerous, so I can understand why someone would just try to deescalate the situation (and I mean this after they have shown their racism or sexism; it's also wrong to assume someone is racist or sexist based on their immutable characteristics), but there is no reason they should have to do anything to do so that wouldn't be expected of anyone else of any other immutable characteristic, even if it is technically "easy".

It's best to ensure that your behavior isn't what makes someone feel unsafe, but someone feeling unsafe because of your immutable characteristics is first and foremost their behavior, and you should not have to do anything to fulfill their higher expectations.

I said this in another comment not in this thread, so I'll say it here too:

So I'm not gonna do something weird to a woman, but I'm also not gonna do that thing to a man, and I'd be just as upset if a man did that thing to me as I would be if a woman did. I naturally try to give people space when walking, and I expect space to be given to me. What I don't do is cross the street because I see someone who is bigger than me (and as a 5'5 man, most other men are bigger than me), and I also don't cross the street because I see a woman who is smaller than me. I have no reason to assume that someone who is bigger than me is dangerous, and someone who is smaller than me has no reason to assume that I am dangerous.

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Fair enough I guess; I simply didn't see what they were saying as implying that.

I will cross the street simply so as to not collide with someone else or force either of us nearer to where cars pass should there not be an available sidewalk, but I won't do that in the presence of a sidewalk since that is a dedicated public walking space which I am using as it is to be used.

I do try to at least be cordial when going passing someone going either direction, but also them being slower than me or going in the same/opposite direction as me isn't valid reason for them to assume I'm following/approaching them.

I am still naturally weary that I'll look like I'm following someone, but I don't inconvenience myself over that since I have just as much of a right to locomotion as they do, just like how I don't automatically assume someone is following me (even though I will often get the gut feeling no matter if it's a massive man or a tiny woman, I just don't let my feelings overwrite logic and rational social behavior).

As long as expectations of safety and general behavior are blind to immutable characteristics and not at the expense of anyone going about their normal life, I agree they should be followed.

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You've reframed the issue. Being cautious about all strangers at night is reasonable. I'm talking about the specific “all men are rapists, be afraid of all men, so now men should walk on the other side of the street, or play music or whatever other idea they have”. That's what I was talking about. Some caution is smart. Telling all men we need to change how or where we walk in order to accommodate their irrational fears is not.

Yes, feminist narrative is that all men are predators. Just listen to their wording. “It's not all men but it's always a man.” Or as you said, “I don't know which ones are predators so I have to assume all are”. Problem with both of those statements is that they do not reflect statistics.

As I said, a little caution, aware of surroundings, not so involved in your phone or conversation is a good thing for anyone. I'm talking specifically about the continued requests we change our behavior to accommodate their fears, so don't step away from that idea.

Lastly, notice how you passive aggressively insult me rather than consider the fact I mentioned specific fears and the resulting behaviors feminists want men to adopt, including things like walk the other side of the street, or worse, curfews. That type of thing. Keep focused on the facts and situation being talked about, leave personal attacks, no matter how veiled, out of it.

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