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Non-covert contracts... just contracts... how to handle?

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November 30, 2017
8 upvotes

Okay bear with me. Probably a victim puke so feel free to kick my ass.

Stats: 3 weeks active OYS MRP. 40 YO, married 18 years, 4 kids, 5’11” 170 lbs Lifting and looking good. Lost 14 pounds of fat by dumping sugar since November 1 Sidebar have read NMMNG, MMSLP, Sex God method, Pook, commandments of poon, Watched all of blue pill professors videos.

I’ve gone into a bit of my wife’s s sexual hang ups in the OYS thread recently and I’ll repost them here if they end up being relevant to this issue. But I’ll leave them out of the initial post for brevity.

In the past I have been a blue pill nice guy taking on ever increasing amounts of responsibility and housework to make everything perfect in a covert contract hoping to get laid. What a fool I have been.

I am still very much in the anger phase. At myself, the world, her, the time I’ve wasted etc. always have to keep that demon in check.

So last night I started my game early, had some great kino and banter. After the kids were down I specifically and directly put the moves on her and she reciprocated. We were headed to the bedroom.

This is probably where I screwed it up. She hadn't eaten yet due to late kid activities and she mentioned she wanted to have dinner first. I was the dumbass nice guy and agreed. I sat with her and purposely didn't touch the sink full of dishes. Instead I let her talk about her day and the kids etc rather than doing anything else.

I still struggled to tell myself to be outcome independent but I was still getting all the green lights. I think I did a good job of remaining aloof but letting her know that I still wanted to have sex.

She took her sweet time and then with a twinkle in her eye asked if I would please do the dishes. I suggested she do them with me offering a chance to keep talking and me to keep kino up and maybe some playful waterfighting etc.

She countered with a decisively non-covert contract. “How about you hurry and do the dishes while I go slip into something more comfortable?”

She NEVER wears lingerie. I LOVE lingerie and she knows it. So I tried to appear non-plussed and said okay but it better be that little white number I like.

She said that sounded cold and I told her even better.

She went to the bedroom and I hurriedly did the few dishes in the sink. My hamster rationalized that this wasn’t a covert contract this was an offer on the table. I was wrong.

When I got into the bedroom she was in her pajamas and not lingerie. I said nothing but she offered up again that she was cold and that these slip off easy anyway. I STFU.

Brushed my teeth and jumped into bed with her. She was looking at her Instagram feed but I put the moves on her and she put her phone down. Totally dead fish though. Didn’t reciprocate foreplay. I STFU and didn’t try to keep her awake, but did try to get her going probably 5-10 minutes more than I should have - sacrificing my own self respect.

I finally told myself outcome independence, didn’t get huffy. Just rolled over and went to sleep. Half of me thinks I should have got up and left. Just come into my work gym and lifted weights all night or something.

I got played.

My fault.

How should I handle this? STFU? Confront her about it? Rambo wants to say fuck you I’m not doing the dishes again ever.

Thoughts?


Post Information
Title Non-covert contracts... just contracts... how to handle?
Author alphasixfour
Upvotes 8
Comments 96
Date 30 November 2017 05:08 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/205114
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/7gnthr/noncovert_contracts_just_contracts_how_to_handle/
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Comments

[–]2ndalRed Beret11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy

How should I handle this? STFU? Confront her about it? Rambo wants to say fuck you I’m not doing the dishes again ever

Water under the bridge. Bringing it up in any way, in your state, is going to appear butthurt in ways you do not want to appear. Yes, STFU.

Take care of your household. Do the dishes not because she asks you to in exchange for shitty sex but because they need to be done.

I sat with her and purposely didn't touch the sink full of dishes. Instead I let her talk about her day and the kids etc rather than doing anything else.

You say your contracts are not covert but you're wrong, and there it is ^ right there. You're in her frame, consciously not doing the dishes to get a reaction from her, while letting her talk about her day because you think that's going to get her to do what you want.

Yes, you did get played. But you're still way early and have a lot to learn.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks. I think I understand. Gotta work harder on frame hard to see my blind spots there.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy

Rambo wants to say fuck you I’m not doing the dishes again ever.

You sure you're not butthurt?

Yes, you were played. The good news is that you realize that now. You are starting to understand the game. So, you have recently read some really good books and think you know strategy better and how to read a defense properly. You walked up to the line of scrimmage last night and surveyed the field to make your move thinking touchdown. As soon as the ball was snapped everything started happening so fast that you didn't know how to react and then you got slammed to the ground before you even knew what hit you. It's okay the game starts to slow down over time, but even Tom Brady gets hit every now and again.

How should I handle this? STFU? Confront her about it?

STFU. You might not fully understand why, but trust us. Let it go.

Also, I read your OYS post. You are deep in her frame and looking for validation from mommy with your comments about working out with female coworkers. DREAD is most effective when you simply are awesome and don't have to say things to make you seem awesome.

I also have 4 kids, religious, and started deep in my wife's frame for which I am still unfucking myself. Don't go Rambo, but one of the best comments I received early on from my first post asking whether I had gone Rambo was when /r/ParadoxThatDrivesUs said "I say hit the accelerator. A deeply religious woman with four small kids isn't going to go anywhere." Now, AWALT and she could still branch swing if you become unbearable. You know how deeply committed she is religiously. I knew I had a long leash here so I kept the accelerator down.

There will be a period of time where things will probably get worse before they get better once the boat starts rocking. Embrace this as it will help you gain control back.

In case you were wondering where your balls went they are in her purse if you want them back.

[–]Red-Curious1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Fellow guy with a deeply religious wife and 4 kids ... can affirm. Rambo is possible, but when she is convicted against divorce, you do have a lot more flexibility and can make progress much quicker.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Most useful reply so far. Thank you.

[–]snatch_haggis0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

You might also have her read The 40 Beads Method and The Empowered Wife. There's even a second version of 40 beads method that's rewritten with a bunch of tie-ins to scripture. YOUR GOD COMMANDS THEE TO BLOW THINE HUSBAND, or similar. I forget the details.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I think asking her to read The Empowered Wife is too much like dudes trying to Red Knight their friends. It doesn't really work.

At one point, I was intrigued with that book and possibly giving it to my wife to read. I purchased it and read thru it because I wanted to know what I would be recommending. I have nothing against the book. It would do wonders for her honestly. However, I personally decided that I would not ask my wife to read it and that I need to lead her into those behaviors myself. The only way I would offer it up to her would be if she specifically asked for any helps to improve. At that point, she would likely be receptive and it could be useful.

That's my take on it. The only other dude I have seen offer it was ImSteveMcQueen, he's divorced now, and he just wrote a wacky post on playing a Didgeridoo nightly to improve yourself by 20%.

[–]snatch_haggis1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Laura Doyle has come up around here quite a few times.

My wife read it, so far no issues but I guess I should start calling lawyers to be safe. :) I think it depends if you're the kind of people who normally read those sorts of books or not, we both are, so it's not a huge deal. There are varying interpretations of what it means not to talk about fight club, I think.

If you never recommend books to each other and suddenly you're like "honey you need to read this book", I'm sure it would come across a bit overwrought. In Steve's case I believe he even made it part of an ultimatum that went south.

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret4 points5 points  (17 children) | Copy

She countered with a decisively non-covert contract. “How about you hurry and do the dishes while I go slip into something more comfortable?”

LOL, you got played. She did slip into something more comfortable.

Lost 14 pounds of fat by dumping sugar since November 1

Ok, going to have to call bullshit on this. You didn't lose 14 pounds in three weeks. No. Even with water weight, no.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy

Not only did he lose 14 pounds in three weeks...11 of them were in the first week alone (first OYS)...AND he gained 4 back in SOLID MUSCLE from dumbbell, bodyweight, and running. AND he read MMSLP cover to cover, sex god method, book of Pook (80%) 16 commandments of Poon, red-pill constitution, and watched all of Blue Pill professor’s Youtube videos. IN ONE WEEK!

OP is completely delusional.

[–]gettingmymojobackRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Gaining 4lbs of new muscle while crash dieting 14lbs in a month is totally doable. Haven’t you heard? /s

OP’s never heard of catabolism apparently.

[–]mabden0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

going to have to call bullshit on this. You didn't lose 14 pounds in three weeks.

No bullshit, as I lost 10 lbs in 2 weeks by cutting out daily 16oz Pepsi drinks and afternoon trips to the vending machine at work.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Cutting out the liter of soda every day was the main thing for me too. I can eat whatever I want and stay at a skinnyfat 185 pounds forever. Drop the crap and it melts off. Gains above 185 are problematic however.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

I don't think you understand how weight loss via calorie defecit works. Most guys need 2000-3000 calories a day as a basline, no exercise, its what your body needs to maintain. Just because you cut out 200 calories in a 20oz Pepsi and maybe 400 in a snack at the vending machine, doesnt mean you are now at a 600 calorie defecit.

Even more so, even if you were at a 600 calorie defecit, a pound of fat is 3600 calories. So to lose 10 lbs you'd need to lose 36,000 calories. If you were at a 600 calorie defecit for 14 days you'd lose 2.3 pounds.

Water weight then? The glycogen store in the body is 500 grams, and it takes 3 grams of water to store 1 gram glycogen. So if you COMPLETELY DEPLETED you glycogen, you could lose 4-5 lbs. Sodium? Only 20mg in a pepsi.

So to recap:

-You were not instantly at a 600 calorie defecit.

-Even if you were you did not lose 10 lbs on that alone.

-If you claim water weight without exercise it's not likely

And

-OP is claiming an 11lb loss in half the time. And claiming a 4lb muscle gain...to my knowledge he does not have a dexascan in his basement, so on that claim alone it's easy to see hes speculating at best. OP at least said he was running so he would be burning glycogen.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

yes it is speculation based on location of mass increase and that it doesn’t feel like fat. Like I said, all math aside I started eating tons of bacon, salami, high fat salads and that’s about it. Stopped drinking a liter of Mountain Dew every day, started running 3 days a week and lifting as heavy as I can 4 days. Energy levels are high and I am sleeping better.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Keep it all heading in that direction. Others have given you good tips. You lost when you conceded to her eating. Now you've learned for next time.

[–]mabden0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for the information.

In 2003, I had high blood pressure, high cholesterol and high blood sugar counts. I was 255lbs on a 6'2" frame. The doc sent me to a dietitian, best thing that ever happened to me. He explained carbohydrates, food portioning, and how to read nutrition labels. He setup a guideline of 60 grams of carbs for each meal, 3 meals a day with 15 grams of carbs for two snacks between meals. Example, breakfast during the week is 1 cup of cereal, 1/2 cup milk, 4 oz OJ, and a handful of berries or 1/2 banana and a little milk with coffee. Lunch was Almond butter on two slices of whole wheat, salad with a table spoon of dressing and a hand full of nuts. Snacks are plain yogurt in the morning and an apple in the afternoon. I called it the caveman diet; leaves and grass, nuts and berries, and meat.

I also embarked on 2 1/2 mile walks including 20 trips up and down stairs at work, 30 minutes of stationary bike at home and hit my son's weight bench.

Cutting out the soda and vending machine crap, and adhering to the above regiment of eating and exercise, within two weeks I had dropped 10 lbs. Over six months I was down 50 lbs. Next visit to the docs; blood pressure, cholesterol and blood sugar where all normal.

After 3 months, I hamstered, doing good, let's get a bag of Doritos out of the machine. I got through 1/2 the bag and had to throw the rest out. My stomach got upset as my body started to reject the crap I was putting inside it.

Believe what you want to believe, use what works for you, and live life large on your own terms with peace.

[–]straius0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is not in the realm of the impossible. I lost 42 lbs over 3.5 months about 6 years ago when I made lifestyle changes.

Went from sedentary and high sugar "diet" to a vegan diet w/ 4 days a week running and light lifting. The drastic change in activity triggered weight loss at a rate I haven't seen since.

That was like 6 years ago. Maybe 7. Obviously not my workout routine now, but the guy is just as likely honest as not depending on how drastic of a change happened.

Homeostasis is a thing. If you've been lifting a while then yeah, cal in / out is pretty straight forward.

[–]Red-Curious4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Assuming by "we are both very religious" you're referring to Christianity, this would be good to post on r/RPChristians. My wife and I are also both very invested in our faith and she has serious hangups from all the anti-sex rhetoric youth and teenagers are given in the church for the first two decades of life. That said, when it comes to dirty talk, an easy way to challenge this is to pressure-flip or employ negative inquiry (I noticed WISNIFG isn't one of the books on your "read" list, yet somehow you skipped over this "prerequisite" and went straight into the 100-level stuff - go back and read it).

Specifically, just ask her, "What's so bad about pillow talk? ... What's so bad about that? ... Why do you believe that's sinful or wrong?" Finish it off with a challenge for her to find you a verse that proves it's sinful. Most people don't understand the freedom Christ is meant to bring, and a rules-oriented life is a lot easier. There's comfort that comes with clear boundaries - and girls are doubly subject to this, given that their only role in a relationship is to follow (whereas Christian men have the dual role of leader in the physical marriage, but follower as part of the bride of Christ, the church). So, even when she's free from rules and boundaries, she naturally wants to place them back on herself. It's easier to live within those confines and accept the guilt and stress that comes with following the rules rather than accepting the reality that no one is trying to control them and they're free to do what they please.

To be clear, this is a lot of what RP is all about. A side-effect of the man becoming OI and developing abundance is that the covert expectations the man once had on his wife are gone. He's setting her free, saying, "You do whatever you want. I'm just going to be awesome. If you want to be awesome with me, climb aboard ... but we're doing it my way." You're not forcing her to do anything any more than Jesus forces us to follow his rules. He simply says, "I'm Jesus. I'm awesome. If you want to follow me, great. If not, go do your own thing - no one's stopping you." Just as the consequence of rejecting Jesus to do your own thing is an eternity separated from Jesus ... so also is the consequence of your wife rejecting you to do her own thing - she can live forever separate from you, and you just go keep being awesome.

I know you're nowhere near there and probably not even moving in that direction, but if you're coming from a religious background, it's vital to realize that your job is not to control or manipulate her into doing what you want her to do; it's for you to do what you want to do and she can do whatever she wants ... and in the process, somewhere along the way, you doing you will make you more attractive so she's more likely to want to do you too. Because spiritual marriage and physical marriage are paralleled in Scripture, the best way to get her to experience the spiritual freedom (i.e. internally from feelings of guilt, shame, etc.) to open up in the bedroom is to emphasize the freedom she has in your marriage. As /u/justpickanyusername noted, I'm guessing she's not likely to leave you if you stop trying to control her and release your expectations on her. So, getting rid of your covert contracts is going to be key - because that's how she'll learn that God doesn't put any covert contracts on her either, despite the fact that many, many, many church women do assume there are implicit expectations put on them by God that aren't outlined in Scripture - things that bloops have been teaching them all their lives that simply aren't biblical, they're just things that sounded good to put in a sermon at the time.


As for your contracts: they actually are covert. Sure, you had one isolated example of her overtly telling you, "If you do this, then I'll do that." But you have the covert expectation that she will follow through on what she says. You covertly expect her not to change her mind. You covertly expect her mood to remain reasonably consistent over a span of five minutes. You covertly expect her to think and talk rationally. Now, she might follow through on those things. But she also might not. And you assume that if you act a right, certain way, then all of these expectations you have on her will be met ... and therefore her overt statement will be made into an actuality. In her mind, she's really thinking, "You had me revved up 15 minutes ago, but as I started eating I'm just not feeling it anymore ... maybe I can get something out of it so it's not all a waste ... oh, he just did the dishes, but now I'm really tired, having just laid in bed and zoned out to my phone for a while, so I'm really not feeling it at all ... maybe I can just ignore him and he'll give up."

You stopped escalating and started letting her de-escalate. Women are like gravity - their arousal always trends downward and it takes an active influence to prop it back up again.

But here's the biggest mistake you made: she said "Do the dishes and I'll do you" - but for some reason you assumed by nature that you have to be the first one to fulfill your end of the bargain. Screw that. I'm a lawyer. You know how often I advise my clients to fulfill their end of a deal first and just take the other side's word that they're good for it? Never. That's idiotic.

Now, from her perspective, if you get her to fulfill her end of the deal first, even if it is based on some overt contract that you'll do the dishes afterward (which means you're in her frame, by the way, so you're better off just abandoning deals like this in the first place unless you're the one offering them to her). If nothing else, at least you've given her something to look forward to. She realizes she's getting something out of it and is at least a little invested in that outcome. But once you actually do the dishes, she's no longer getting anything out of having sex with you (noting that women don't tend to crave orgasms until after they're already revved up, so when she's cold she doesn't care that she might get off too). This is one of the many reasons why choreplay is an awful, awful, awful sexual strategy. If she already got what she wants, why should she care about making the sex good for you - or even having sex at all in the first place? If she wants nothing from you, she'll give nothing to you to get it. She might not be stopping you from taking from her (i.e. starfish, non-responsiveness, etc.), but she's not going to make the effort herself.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Fuck. You’re right.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy

Ya.

Once when my wife asked me to do the dishes and I said “not tonight, I have a headache”. She started crying. I started laughing, but had to stop because my head hurt so fucking bad.

So she is crying not because I said no, but from the other comment. See, she knows not to fuck with my dishwashing shit because she hopped on a train that is fucking clean and organized. I’ve done give up on her disorganization and being able to go to bed with dishes in the sink. I just won’t leave the house with a sink full of dishes because, well, they need to be done.

So, you see, we are talking about sexual strategy and now you are going on about being butt hurt and won’t go see the lights, refusing to admit this is total retribution.

My answer as always, is it take the ego out back and run a bullet into the base of the spine. Hence, you can stop allowing your pride and feelings of getting to the real problem

I’m sure you lift and yes, if you cut sugar out like soda 7 or 8 pounds of fecal matter will come out so your weight loss numbers are probably correct.

What’s not correct is the line of shit you believe in, being ok to punish her and the kids over her not getting wet for a man that refuses to do the dishes when they just need to be done.

Men, strong men, masculine men, engage in family activities and avoid breaking a tradition of holiday lights for the sake of punishing for no pussy or little effort. But what distinguishes men from most others is the ability to just own what they say, do and live.

It’s not about who is right or wrong. It’s not about the dishes. It’s about the fact you refuse to own your life. You may have created a few kids, but you refuse to engage in your life. Hence, she isn’t excited to fuck you.

So if you want a real answer about how to avoid fucking up in the future it’s this. “Go eat, see you in the morning”. Or, sitting around like a horny teen avoiding the dishes is pretty fucking unattractive, see you just became another thing on her list. The list that she keeps going to tell her little boy, it’s time to do your part

So back to my wife crying over the headache comment, it was pretty much in a moment of absolute pushing me to the brink of frustration when she rejected me and told me she had a head ache and then laughed. See, it wasn’t really about the rejection or the dishes in the sink, it was that she actually thought she had me deep enough in her frame to reject me then laugh at me

My rebuttal was enough to have her examine whether her marriage was going to last. Not mine, but hers.

Back to you. When the ego overloads the ass, the thoughts of what is owed to you, by social construct or by covert contracts, often outweighs logical thought processes in laymen’s terms - no one owes you shit, including your wife along with a good fuck.

But hey, that’s just saying. Ya know pull your head out your ass.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy

I used to think you were a bit of a dumb fuck , not an asshole or too hard , but just a dumb fuck. This last 6 months your words really speak to me. Not sure if you or I changed more .

Keep it coming man

[–]simbarlionRed Beret0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

I'm still in the dumb fuck stage.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

What is your mission ?

Write it down. Exactly to the letter.

Take a yellow pad of paper and write it out. Spend all day, two weeks, whatever it takes. Once it’s clear and concise, refine it.

Decide, what are you truly wiling to do to achieve the mission ?

The mission truly starts in the lifting cycle. It’s because you - simb moves that object. No one can help you do that.

But, your posture changes, your perspective shifts with each work out. You, and only you can control this. As the changes show in your body, what do you think will follow ?

The dumb and her stage goes, when you truly understand this work is for you.

You are reworking you and essentially erasing the “Death of a Thousand Cuts”. The shift happens upon accepting you can only change you, and seeing that you created the roommate situation. And, most do it unknowingly.

So I ask you, are you a dumb fuck ? Or, are you still working on a direction ?

Read Book of Pook. Then rework lesson 8 and read Womanese over and over again.

Rian Stone sent a kink about a dude getting divorced over a glass on the counter, um, ya. He’s a fucking dimwit that couldn’t see his wife couldn’t deal with momma ing him for the rest of her life, and the glass was the tip of the iceberg

So where do you stand ? What are your limits to get what you want once you achieve your goals ?

I set a hard date in my mind. My SO decided to stay, because she actually see I had become indifferent and would not operate in her frame.

I believe my attitude shifted with this hard date

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Somehow missed this one in the excitement. Thank you. Will do.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Agreed

[–]simbarlionRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Was referring to my views of u/ sh.

But thanks.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Any time

[–]simbarlionRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You just qualified

[–]crimson_chris2 points3 points  (29 children) | Copy

She countered with a decisively non-covert contract. “How about you hurry and do the dishes while I go slip into something more comfortable?”

You are right. It was an overt contract which is worse in my opinion. Why? She knows that she can use sex to modify your behavior. You are not the prize nor do you have a prize mindset. What you do for her, not how you make her feelz, is the prize. Beta bucks. In this round she won the value equation.

It’s simple. Your value is your commitment. Her value is her sex. You should be the prize. In this scenario her sex was the prize not you. That is where you failed in at least two ways. She should be using her sex to solidify your commitment – to get your attention and comfort (for her feelz). Instead of that, she traded her sex for clean dishes. Then you doubled down and accepted her offer. How much is that worth? Let me tell you, she valued it enough to give you starfish. Meh.

Take this with a grain of salt as I am still on my journey. But, I no longer bargain for sex or anything else with the wife. Trading favors for sex (covert or overt) does not frame you as the prize. It frames her sex as the prize. You will do <X> if she gives you <Y>. Your commitment should be the prize. She gives you sex, and then she gets to continue enjoying the feelz you give her.

The last time I remember my wife trying this my response was " I am going to have sex anyway, so why would I bargain with you." Always assume the sale. She gave me shit, but sex was had I did not bargain. I don't want to fuck someone who does not want to fuck me for me. Why would real man settle for less?

At some point you have to stop fearing your wife and be a fucking man. Another example – will keep it simple. I called my wife yesterday to check in on her (she sent me a weird text). She answered the phone in an annoyed tone. I told her that her tone was not acceptable and that I’d talk to her when I got home – and hung up mid conversation. Pre-MRP, I would have taken her shit and tried to make her feelz better – I would not have hung up on her like that because of fear of her attitude. Later that day – she sends me a text, apologizing for being bitchy on the phone. Women want men who don’t put up with their shit. They fully know when they are being bitchy. If you are willing to put up with their bratty behavior it just shows that you have a lower SMV. It shows that you don't think you can do better. Do better.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (28 children) | Copy

Thank you for the perspective. I need to MRP for me and not to make my wife sleep with me. And just to clarify she didn’t just give me starfish. She dead starfished the foreplay. Did nothing. So I gave up. No way was I going to beg her to stay awake or settle.

[–]crimson_chris0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Haha...I have been there. Turning down starfish.

[–]wildnight98MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (26 children) | Copy

I'm currently in a cold dead bedroom environment because I am refusing to apologize for something dumb and she has explicitly told me there's no action till I apologize. But your comment made me recall the last sex before the current transactional offer; halfway through during foreplay she said "you might want to hurry up, I'm falling asleep." I got on and finished in about 40 seconds, then immediately jumped up and headed for the shower. But maybe I should have abandoned like you did. Anyway I feel you bro.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (25 children) | Copy

Thanks man. I’m acting like nothing’s wrong and being loving and physical with her. I get a “please don’t” when I touch her now. She is pissed that I didn’t go with them last night and stayed home and got my own shit done. I’m STFU and ignoring it and staying fun and positive especially with the kids. The shitty-er she is, the more energy I have for the gym.

As for the falling asleep thing, that was a standard for us. She would put off bedtime until all the chores were done and super tired, half heartedly begin and then fall asleep during foreplay.

Not anymore. Good sex or no sex. I’m good either way for the short term.

[–]wildnight98MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (16 children) | Copy

Mine perfected the art of extending her bedtime chores till after I️ am long asleep. Our youngest are 7 and 9 and she still sits with them for an hour till they get to sleep. It is pretty impressive how she can take three hours to come to bed, in a twisted sort of way.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

And when have you called her out on it? These things only work because she is being indirect. Be direct.

If you are avoiding the idea of fucking me, stay out here. I have no plans to fuck on the sofa.

[–]wildnight98MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Please expand on calling her out. I️ have the idea that I’m not ready to start setting boundaries till I️ get the DLs higher...

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Well, she's making excuses, just make the covert overt, in a way that makes sense for you.

Bonus if you can do it without being buttmad about it.

Can't fix something if it ain't in the open

[–]wildnight98MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Got it. Calling some things out is what I would call a "target rich environment." But I need to start somewhere.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

If you want a good example. the professor describes examples in DL9. Obviously don't skip ahead of your roadmap, but the technique works the same.

Just matter of fact observation, not DEERing it, no buttmad, almost a talk on effectiveness.

"If you don't want to fuck me, you don't have to pretend to do chores/don't have to hide with the kids. Cut that shit out"

Of course, you still do your own thing, and look into replacing her, but you're being honest

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy

I hear you there. Mine falls asleep with them. In the past I have just let her sleep and dutifully cleaned up done dishes, folded clothes, packed lunches etc and then woke her up for bed. Now I just get the shit done that needs to be done right away and go to bed. She can stay with them all night if she wants. Usually she stumbles down eventually. Always has the energy to get up and go running with her best friend at 4:30 in the morning though.

[–]wildnight98MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

Since we are venting... :) So a couple days ago I tell her about a new menu plan I'm going to be starting (I want to stop losing absolute weight and start gaining muscle). I didn't explain it, just told her since she makes dinner most nights. She says, pretty emphatically, "well don't lose too much weight. You know I don't like skinny boys!"

So this is a woman that has had sex with me fewer than ten times this year, the majority of which were ugly-pajama-starfish-iPhone-before-and-after encounters, and is currently trying to blackmail a false apology out of me by withholding sex for almost two weeks and running. Some may say that her expressing any sexual interest by stating a preference for non-skinny-boys (whatever that means) relating to me is an improvement. But I don't. At the time she made the comment, I experienced a sudden and profound rage at the absolute irony of her expressing a sexual preference relating to me. Still, I kept it together and gave her some casual assurance that I was planning to bulk up some and not lose more or whatever.

I am currently planning a "leave the house maneuver" at /u/rian_Stone's suggestion. My next initiation will be right after after-dinner chores and putting the boys to bed (i.e. not too close to my bedtime). When she turns me down I'm going to say, "cool, I'm going to the gym then." And off I will go. I've also been enjoying starting a list of things that I plan to do outside the house in the evenings after rejected initiations.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Dude I just did this. We had a great night with the kids did another Christmas activity on her list but I led the way, took them out to dinner afterward and kept playful and physical with her rather than being mad at the kids and just pissed off at the logistics like I would be if I was in her frame and along for the ride. She brushed off most of my moves but I just laughed and kept at it.

Got home got the kids to bed, she tried to fall asleep with one of them and I just said “you don’t have to hide from me with the kids”. She came downstairs and headed right for the sink to load the dishwasher. I made a strong pass for her to put down the dishes and have sex NOW, with much playful grabbing and she shrugged me off. I laughed and said “cool. I’m going to the gym then” she got confused and I just STFU and headed for the door. She then said “I’ll be done in 15 minutes”. I fucked up and hesitated and then recovered. Not good enough. I am the prize and the priority. “Nah. Gotta work off dinner right this minute. Later”. And left.

I’ll let you know what happens. For now, gotta lift.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

something of hers on your dick is the only metric that counts, the rest is ego stroking.

It's even come up in conversations. My ol lady always says we never fight (read: I don't take bait) but the one thing that always pisses her off is when I 'storm out of the house'. It truly bothers her.

Notice, it's a bullshit statement, I don't slam doors, I grab my bag and either workout, or write.

How she sees it is irrelevant, I just quietly go find something better to do. Was my solution for sitting there at night, just before bed. After a shut down or piss off, then I'm sitting there, just angrily waiting to sleep. Fuck that.

[–]wildnight98MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

It has been a little challenging to plan it this week with holiday commitments and things. But I'm really looking forward to it. Fortunately my gym is 24/7 and has showers, hot tub, plunge pools, etc. I could easily spend a couple hours there and arrive home ready to get right into bed.

Writing is a good idea too. I could go to starbucks with my laptop or something.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I got through my university degree at starbucks. Coffee is middling, but the atmosphere is great

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

After action report. This works. As posted, after a turndown I went to the gym last night, had an energized and killer workout. Got home and she was asleep. I showered and went to bed. She got up for her morning run, kissed me goodbye (never does that) and when she got home we had great sex. Been upping affection and attention since. Keeping the kino going for possible round two tonight. If it doesn’t happen I got some this morning and have other shit to do. Got guns in the war room that need cleaning.

[–]wildnight98MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Dude that is awesome. Keep reports coming.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Been a good day. I’m a hobby carpenter and building a desk for my daughter for Christmas which just allowed me to STFU and get out and work as soon as a mild shit test softball was thrown my way. Wife has been very receptive to playful touch etc. came in from working and the kids were fighting about doing their chores. We had places to be. Rather than yell and lose frame or enter my wife’s frame by backing her up I took the wheel and sent her to our room to finish getting ready and got the kids to behave and get out the door. Felt good to be the captain. We are out running errands and she has been hanging off me like she hasn’t in a long time. I still have a LONG way to go, but kicking my way out of her frame, leaving last night without getting butthurt, trying to keep the mindset that I am the prize and taking leadership have made for a great day so far.

[–]JudgeDoom690 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I get a “please don’t” when I touch her now.

So what have you done to address her psychological issues from childhood sexual abuse, other than the dishes?

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Nothing. She has adamantly refused therapy or going to counseling together. She was abused by her brother when he was a teenager and she was little.

Want to know the part that pisses me off the most? We still have to see the motherfucker and play nice at family functions like shit never happened. I’ve never said a word to him about it.

Now as a beta pussy for the last 18years I have tried to be senstitive to her feelings and not stir shit up but every time I see him I am mentally sizing him up for a coffin. Just your typical pissed off beta pussy I am realizing.

Not sure really how I should handle it. I can’t shoot the fucker but I don’t want him around my girls. I have played nice and just covertly kept my kids away from him but it grinds on me like you wouldn’t believe.

After advice here yesterday I have been looking into therapists and plan on just making her an appointment and dropping her off.

[–]JudgeDoom690 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

She was abused by her brother when he was a teenager and she was little. Want to know the part that pisses me off the most? We still have to see the motherfucker and play nice at family functions like shit never happened. I’ve never said a word to him about it.

It's no wonder she has some hang-ups in the sack.

She has adamantly refused therapy or going to counseling together.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make her drink. (Nor can you can drown her punk-ass child-molester brother in it, as much as you'd like to).

Given the recent wave of allegations in Hollywood of past sexual abuse, one has to wonder how that's affecting your wife and opening up old wounds. On the one hand she'd like to call him out on it in front of the family at the Thanksgiving table and throw hot coffee on his crotch, on the other hand she has guilt because he is her brother.

There are some resources for victims and their loved ones on rainn.org, you might put some of that on your reading list.

https://www.rainn.org/articles/adult-survivors-child-sexual-abuse

At some point you might have to accept the fact that no matter how attractive or red-pill you get, her past scars will always be a factor, and it's not a reflection on you, or even her. You can improve your situation greatly, but your sex life with this one might never be the porn movie you were hoping for.

[–]auto-xkcd370 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

punk ass-child-molester brother


Bleep-bloop, I'm a bot. This comment was inspired by xkcd#37

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks. It’s gotta be fixed long term. Good sex is a non negotiable part of the life I am building.

I’m pissed that I let it go so long and wasted my time.

I love her. I’m willing to take time for her to work through this, but I’m not going to be her brother’s second victim.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Lol, anger is good. Anger means she gives a shit.

I get those 'no' all the time. I back off and have a chuckle, she also smirks after I give no fucks for being a grabby mc grabberson.

Try treating it like any LMR, no reason to get into buttmad mode unless you have to.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Exactly what I did this morning. Glad to know I didn’t completely fuck it up.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I get 10 nos a day.

Its such a token resistance I hear it as flirting now.

[–]captainVSI2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Just one day. Next day, act as though nothing happened.

[–]markpf731 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Sometimes you've got a five minute window but 10 minutes of dinner remain. One day you just won't care and you'll bang her face down in the mash potatoes.

Stay the course, and do as you please. Set your sights on IDGAF. If you follow the process of lift, sidebar, and build up your hobbies/social circles you will get there.

[–]AustralianArm1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

So last night I started my game early, had some great kino and banter. After the kids were down I specifically and directly put the moves on her and she reciprocated. We were headed to the bedroom.

Ugh. There it is.

You should never start your game early. Never. You should be always on your game. The moment you 'start' your game each afternoon/evening, you just signaled to her you want to fuck and she has ample opportunity to shut it down.

You should be laying on the kino whether you want to fuck or not. Make that your normal state.

And 3 weeks MRP? GTFO, sidebar, lift, come back in 12-18 months.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It happens, learn from it and move on.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Iron rule #3.

The married man equivalent is never schedule sex. As others have said you got dupped. That's ok, it happens. You're not her priority.

Attraction will get you out of this. A wife who wants to fuck will find a way to fuck. So be attractive.

....She hadn't eaten yet due to late kid activities and she mentioned she wanted to have dinner first. I was the dumbass nice guy and agreed. I sat with her and purposely didn't touch the sink full of dishes. Instead I let her talk about her day and the kids etc rather than doing anything else.

This is where you went wrong. You sat there like her girlfriend with a penis, instead of being a man of action. First step, get shit done. It's your ship, if there's dirty dishes to be done, they need to be done.

My wife and I have a traditional relationship and balance of chores. She tends to do the more domestic stuff, I tend to do the more mechanical stuff. But if I'm home working and the dishwasher needs to be unloaded I do it. The key is you don't want to engage in chore play, but you need to be leading the way. She should feel like she can't keep up.

If your wife feels overwhelmed and you come to her with another chore, of course she's going to be less than receptive. She likely feels like mommy having to tell you to clean the dishes, in her brain she's thinking "I get home late, I just want to relax and there's a fucking mess in the sink."

How should I handle this? STFU? Confront her about it? Rambo wants to say fuck you I’m not doing the dishes again ever.

Do you think a good captain would ever pick a fight with his crew about whether the dishes got cleaned? Not a fucking chance.

Become awesome again. Be fun. Continue the dread plan, you're not there yet. Because when you do get there those dishes will miraculously disappear and there will be a sex kitten waiting in your bed. If it's your wife, good for her.

[–]crimson_chris1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Agreed. I came home earlier this week and the kitchen was a fucking mess. My SAH wife was getting ready for an art show, had a sick kid and she had a cold herself. I was still pissed as the kitchen should have been fucking cleaned. So I cleaned it my self. Later that night she apologized (unprompted) for not having cleaned up the kitchen.

Like u/UEMcGill stated - be a man of action. Own your ship via example. I could have given her shit - made her feel bad, and had an argument. I chose to be an positive example. Be better.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (20 children) | Copy

So I tried to appear non-plussed and said okay but it better be that little white number I like.

Did you, or didn't you? Were you, or weren't you? no need to hedge here friend, say what you mean.

She went to the bedroom and I hurriedly did the few dishes in the sink.

LEL

Just rolled over and went to sleep. Half of me thinks I should have got up and left

Did half of you have something else to do? This is why you make your move before you are ready to sleep. Clearly if she lost her pussy in some train wreck, you don't have another one to replace it. The closer you get to this replacement, the less this stuff will bother you. This is preferable to trying to appear like it didn't bother you.

How should I handle this? STFU? Confront her about it? Rambo wants to say fuck you I’m not doing the dishes again ever.

Think of the guy who gets freindzoned by a girl. how should he react? Off the top of my head. I would make the covert, overt. That thing you do, where you throw out a whiff to get out of doing the dishes? Not on. Then remove some attention, affection, or comfort.

And if called out on tit-for-tat strategy (game theory) flip the script. Why in gods name would I not be affectionate towards you? You make me the happiest husband in the world!

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Thanks Rian. I have a lot to learn.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Just pay attention to what you're doing, and your motivations. Strategy only works when you understand them

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I need to go back to the reading. It resonated and made a ton of sense as I read it but I have failed to put it into any real practice aside from the superficial lift weights and try to pass shit tests and stfu.

But I literally have no idea how to actually live for myself and not feel guilty about it. Gotta read WISNIFG I guess. I look at all of the activities on our calendar this month lots of which she has scheduled with the kids, and then my work, church responsibilities, etc. and wonder how I am going to do anything to “just be myself and be awesome and let her follow along”. Gotta find balance.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

But I literally have no idea how to actually live for myself and not feel guilty about it.

Fake it Act like the guy who does this, like an actor who plays the part. And when someone get's all uppity and that guilt sinks in, laugh.

Dude, you know this is just a part right?

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy

So had a brief phone conversation with her about an hour ago. In the spirit of not getting into things over the phone (and never by text) I saved the overt comment about the dishes for later.

I did tell her I wasn’t going to go to our family activity tonight (mind numbing looking at lights and herding the kids around in the cold). Told her she could take our son and I would stay with the girls and do something else. She said okay very quietly and then had to go.

Been blowing up my phone with texts and calls ever since are you okay? Why don’t you want to go? I want us to do this together, I love you.

Text is for logistics only.

I haven’t texted or called her back yet.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy

Do you have a plan? Why did you say you aren't going?

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy

I don’t have a plan. I simply do not want to go. It’s not butt hurt about last night at this point it’s realizing that by going to things she had planned every night I am living in her frame constantly. This is a (perhaps misguided) attempt to break the cycle.

Didn’t get a chance to tell her why and would have fumbled if I had tried DEERing it. She has asked why in texts but I have been busy getting shit done at work.

She needs comfort right now. Asked if I was okay and said she is worried. Again I’m not having a text convo with her. This is all one sided. Don’t know if I should comfort at this point or let it ride.

I figured she would counter with not being able to take the kids by herself so I offered to keep the girls home. Plan was to do something fun with them. Ice cream or similar, then play games and bond with them.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I just got the text “We are supposed to meet downtown at 6. Im hoping traffic won’t be too bad, but I don’t know going that direction. Do you want me to go by myself?”

I’m In a boring work meeting so I can text and type here but can’t pick up the phone and call her for a while.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

Keep it simple. You don't want to go, so don't go. Don't worry about how it looks.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

Okay. I know I am wrong to feel like shit but I feel like shit. I just called her, told her I just didn’t want to go and she lost it. Crying so I couldn’t understand her half the time. Complained that she took the night off work to go to this activity, demanding a reason, tried to tap into my protective instinct telling me she didn’t feel safe downtown, begging, weaponizing the kids (she always does this. Somehow the kids are always on her side so I am outnumbered). She demanded an explanation said she felt like I was going to disappear and never come home again. I just STFU. She asked if I was mad at her or trying to punish her. I asked her why I would be mad? Played it off. She accused me of “flexing my muscles” to prove a point and I just asked her what point that would be? Played it off. But she made me feel like shit. I’m sure she is telling the kids that dad doesn’t want to be with them. My son (who has Down syndrome) is going to have a hard time without me there. I feel guilty as hell.

I feel like I won the shit tests but the comfort test was backed into a corner.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

Also, this isnt a comfort or shit test this is manipulation and co dependancy

[–]BostonBrakeJob0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

manipulation and co dependancy

For sure.

But "she feels like I'm going to disappear and never going to come home again" is def. a fucked up version of a comfort test. I used to deal with the weaponizing of my kids too, and started hearing shit like this get peppered into my wife's rants as I progressed.

My money is on OP's wife knowing she's treated him like shit throughout the years (without consciously knowing why, that is), she thinks she pissed him off but can't be sure until OP says "I didn't go bc of last night", and is going back and forth between her old tricks and fearing she may have pushed him too far.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

It's not comfort. There's no way she's worried about losing him. She plays wounded

He's always stepped up out of guilt before

[–]BostonBrakeJob0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

There's one way. If she doesn't have an immediate back-up plan, "branch", or other living arrangements already lined up, she wants no part of him leaving her. Not right now anyway.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Strong point.

I am home now in an empty house. Going to get some furniture built in the garage that I am building for my daughter for Christmas. I keep coming back to the chapter on reclaiming your personal power in NMMNG. I ordered WISNIFG just now. It is the one basic text I skipped. Didn’t think I had that problem and I was dead fucking wrong.

One thing I forgot to mention. When she called I did give her the option of staying home and taking the kids out for ice cream and playing games. Invited her along on my plan.

She chose to take the kids anyway. Tells me she isn’t as afraid of downtown as she claims. Needs to start fighting fair or she gets nothing at all.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

What would you tell yourself here.

This is basic WISNIFG and Nmmng stuff here. It's glaringly obvious

[–]BostonBrakeJob0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Whatever your reason, don't DEER.

You recognize the comfort test in all of this, that's big for being as green as you are. Capitalize on that. Address the comfort, not why you skipped out.

And she senses you're skipping out bc of what happend last night. You know this now, so do NOT bring up last night...ever. The second you bring it up, at least from the position you are in now, she is going to have her cold hard proof that she was right. Whether she IS right or not is irrelevant. If you keep your mouth shut and move on from it, it will keep her guessing (which is what you want).

[–]RPWolfAlpha_as_Wolf_2.00 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah it wasn't a covert contract, it was transactional sex and shitty sex at that.

Let it go and learn from it.

[–]RealityTastesGreat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You can't negotiate desire, certainly not covertly but also not overtly either. Covert contracts are disastrous among other reasons because they try to negotiate un-negotiables but the covert nature delays the folly getting exposed. Being overt saved you a little time, and yeah it does seem like you failed a test or two as well.

[–]TaipanshimshonRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

When she said for you to do the dishes with a twinkle in her eye that was your first clue. No words. Just wink and do the dishes. Because they need to be done.

So you come in all ready to go - and .... PJ's.

Why not tease her about her wonderful new outfit

How you've never seen that outfit.

Have fun with it.

Having had to excliicitly tell you that she is going to go get ready - that was a pussy drying experience. You should have picked up on it.

She doesn't like to have to communicate overtly about sex with you yet

What now??

Nothing. How were you acting more attractive than during the rest of your marriage ?

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

How about you hurry and do the dishes while I go slip into something more comfortable?”

Frame grab. Do you recognize what she did- and why it would be a turnoff to any female?

How should I handle this?

Bend her over and fuck her while you shove her face in the pillow. What is this 'turning her on' shit? If she wants it fine. If not, why are you forcing her to get aroused? Just fuck her and be done with it. Jeez this is not complicated.

Also, the whole lingerie promise was a Shit Test and very disrespectful IMHO.

[–]alphasixfour[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for weighing in. It was disrespectful and will be handled MUCH differently in the future. I’m over it. Independent of outcome I am going to keep being awesome. Walking out on her the next night and going to the gym was the best thing I could have done. Not because she has been more respectful and sexual since, but because I took my frame back.



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