Has feminism has done women a disservice by painting men in an antagonistic light?

exit_sandman · 2016-07-21T08:57:02+00:00

Good entry, I also want to point at Dalrock's post "Feminists are ugly (because they are miserly with love)".

Because that's the root of the problem we're discussing here - feminism turned not caring for a man into a virtue and a mark of excellence. And even though I wouldn't equate doing housewifely tasks with loving a person (as Dalrock does), the fact that I grew up absorbing the spirit that I should never ever get to expect a woman doing these things for me certainly made me internalize the idea that women aren't under the obligation to contribute in a relationship. Add to this that men are, as soon as they start being interested in girls, constantly reminded that it's women who 100% control the access to sex and that they should never ever expect them to give it to them (and that they're bad for pursuing it in the first place) and you have a grade A setup for a future beta (beta if he's lucky) who will put up with anything in a relationship because he's happy if he doesn't get abused.

This is something bluepillers are oblivious to - if you constantly remind men that they shouldn't expect anything from women except the very fundamentals like exclusivity, but constantly remind them also that women are awesome and wonderful, of course you'll end up with pedestalizing unhappy losers who are harboring fertile ground for stewing resentment that can suddenly erupt when they finally snap. But of course the feminist apologists would rather bite their tongues off than even merely entertaining the thought that their pet ideology might have something to do with it.

I remember that there was once one of the rare female posters at /r/theredpill who mentioned that all she did in her relationships was staying in shape, not giving her boyfriends a hard time, doing the occasional cooking and having enthusiastic sex with them, and they treated her like the best thing since sliced bread for it. Her reaction "well, I guess I should thank all the other women for lowering the bar that far".

EDIT: Similar post I made a year ago

dakru · 2016-07-21T03:50:41+00:00

Yes, but it's not unexpected that so many feminists would paint men in an antagonistic light when you consider the theory that's the basis of their world-view. I could find countless examples of feminists talking about how in society and/or family, women are some combination of dominated, exploited, oppressed, and subjugated. That's a really severe world-view. Let's take a quote from bell hooks, well-respected feminist writer behind the 2000 book Feminism is for Everybody: Passionate Politics, which is often used as an introduction to feminism.

Patriarchy is a political-social system that insists that males are inherently dominating, superior to everything and everyone deemed weak, especially females, and endowed with the right to dominate and rule over the weak and to maintain that dominance through various forms of psychological terrorism and violence. [http://imaginenoborders.org/pdf/zines/UnderstandingPatriarchy.pdf]

Here's EverydayFeminism on something similar:

Feminism also acknowledges how patriarchy and other forms of social hierarchy can hurt men while giving them benefits at the same time. It calls for them to dominate, abuse, exploit, and silence women and others in order to maintain superiority and the traditional roles for women and men. But most men, in their hearts, do not want to treat women like this. [http://everydayfeminism.com/2012/07/feminism-is-for-everyone/]

When you think that this is the system we live in, of course you're going to be extremely vigilant about how men treat women, and extremely skeptical about any calls to treat men well because they'll seem like efforts to keep women subordinated or something like that. And if we really did live in that system, for example if we lived in Saudi Arabia, then perhaps that vigilance and skepticism would be warranted.

But we don't, so it results in many men and women with a female-centric view of relationships, as you point out. Where does this leave us? You talk about being sad. Although I'm not a redpiller, I'd emphasize the red-leaning insight that most women don't actually want the type of guy who would result from reading this feminist literature, the guy who's a supplicating pushover (because by default he'd be vaguely egalitarian, but as a result of this stuff he goes female-centric). It's actually pretty liberating, isn't it? Not only do you not have to end up in a relationship like that, you'll probably do better if you don't.

coratoad · 2016-07-21T05:24:03+00:00

Most women who responded liked the list. It's not controversial. You can find most of this advice on Wiki or Cosmo

sublingmongel: nothing bad about this list
LeaneGenova: standard LTR behavior
future_space_boobs: good list, but thinks men should do the same
The_Chemist: Mostly positive, reservations about a few points though sen--sen: mostly positive, but feels men should do the same. some criticisms here
HigHog: great list if not taken to the extreme
utigers: mostly ok, some criticisms though
prettydrunk23: negative
ferretsRfantastic: some parts are fine, but some are weird
me: positive, standard LTR behavior
citrusdrink76: positive, what all women should do naturally if they are in love

AnUndecidedPill · 2016-07-21T03:53:05+00:00

wasn't pretty much everyone in that thread saying that the list sounded fine, except for a few unreasonable points (like women avoiding eye contact with other men)? if anything, it should have been reassuring; there was little to object to.

the made up interpretations in the second link are just that; hyperbole, and made up by someone who seems to hate feminists (a pretty biased source, that probably couldn't care less about whether or not you end up in a relationship). making eye contact is just part of normal communication, so restricting that in a relationship can easily be pretty extreme.

InformalCriticism · 2016-07-21T10:28:18+00:00

I had a spontaneous discussion about this on facebook once (pre-TRP, post divorce rape commencement). I said something to the affect of

"It's not that men and women are incompatible, it's that women have recently adopted ideas that men are woefully unprepared to handle".

Women truly have been pumped full of horseshit. And in that sense, they are incompatible with men, but it's actually ironic how this social conditioning angle feminists take is actually a simple projection about why women are disliked; women were conditioned so far outside the boundaries of reality, and indeed decency, that they claim men have to be conditioned to fit their paradigm.

disposable_pants · 2016-07-21T10:30:19+00:00

This sorta reinforces my belief that modern relationships are very female-centric, a lot of women seem to enter relationships with the thought in their head that it's all about them and that the guy is there to serve his woman and that women shouldn't worry too much about reciprocating affection because..they're just men, right?

What came to mind reading this part is the idea that women are often encouraged to ask "are you happy?" in a relationship, while men are very rarely given the same advice. Women hear "are you happy?" constantly and from all angles, along with the often-explicit follow up of "if you're not, leave, no matter how good it seems". Feeding into this is the men in their relationships implicitly and explicitly saying they "just want to make [her] happy." Literally every time a guy asks his partner what she wants to eat he's telling her that he doesn't care at all about the food; he cares about making her happy.

This advice is given so frequently that women can't help but ask themselves the question in question, and that extensive relationship analysis leads to A) nitpicking/nagging and B) lack of consideration for the other party's happiness.

TheChemist158 · 2016-07-21T12:36:03+00:00

The author says it was politically object Incorrect, but I don't think most of those points aren't PC. Particularly not the common sense ones. The article is more a commentary on how some women feel out of place than how most women think.

dopesk1 · 2016-07-21T19:13:26+00:00

Who cares about feminism. Next

Subway_Bernie_Goetz · 2016-07-21T20:43:15+00:00

Not as much as it has done men a disservice by ruining women

Sandralees · 2016-07-21T08:02:15+00:00

Feminism is not responsible for painting men in antagonistic light. They always were considered ~~less reliable human beings that women~~ unreliable.

Sigh no more, ladies, sigh no more. Men were deceivers ever, One foot in sea, and one on shore, To one thing constant never. Then sigh not so, but let them go, And be you blithe and bonny, Converting all your sounds of woe Into hey nonny, nonny.

Sing no more ditties, sing no more Of dumps so dull and heavy. The fraud of men was ever so Since summer first was leafy. Then sigh not so, but let them go, And be you blithe and bonny, Converting all your sounds of woe Into hey, nonny, nonny."

William Sharespeare - Much ado about nothing.

CrazyTom54 · 2016-07-21T04:50:14+00:00

Has Feminism done women a disservice by painting men in an antagonistic light?

Has MGTOW and redpillism done men a disservice by painting women in an antagonistic light?

Nottabird_Nottaplane · 2016-07-21T10:09:20+00:00

I do not want to be raped. How can I stop it?
I must identify who is committing these rapes.
Most rapists are men.
Thus if I want to end rape, I would best be served by targeting my efforts towards men.

You can break down most feminist logic the same way; it gets more complicated once you start factoring in things like class, LGBT+, race etc but it's fundamentally the same. It's not about demonizing anyone, it's about recognizing problems that primarily affect people within your community and how to solve them.

despisedlove2 · 2016-07-23T17:57:58+00:00

You hit the nail on the head.

The traditional marriage was man putting his wife first, and both putting their children first.

However, women still retained a loyalty for their husbands.

Now, men are just walking ATMs who can be cast conveniently into the role of a rapist or a beta orbiter at will.

Emotional coldness is central to being female. However, it was kept in check by traditional values.

It is a free for all now.

fish_launcher · 2016-07-21T13:53:15+00:00

Feminist blue-pill treehugger lovefag here. I do believe that painting men in a negative light does harm women, and I do believe feminism is partially - though not entirely - to blame for this.

However, I blame the patriarchy (not men, but the social system both men and women are responsible for upholding) for the majority of the damage. Viewing men as sex-hungry, cheat-happy stupid and lazy rapists is unfair to both men and women. Similarly, putting women on a pedestal, saying that women can't rape or be murderers or must be protected or are the prettier sex is both unfair to men and woman. Equality and peace cannot be established until we realize that there is a larger range of individual differences than there are sex differences.

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Has feminism has done women a disservice by painting men in an antagonistic light?

Comments

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Title	Has feminism has done women a disservice by painting men in an antagonistic light?
Author	AnUndecidedPill
Upvotes	24
Comments	135
Date	July 21, 2016 2:34 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4tutdg/has_feminism_has_done_women_a_disservice_by/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/has-feminism-has-done-women-a-disservice-by.273931 https://theredarchive.com/post/273931