What would you say is moral case against red pill?

Villaintine · 2015-10-03T23:46:03+00:00

Why can one say that women owe men nothing and then act shocked when men decide they owe women nothing?

No one owes anyone anything, regardless of gender. That's the smartest way to operate in the world.

but Red Pill says that men are in the right to pursue any (legal) sexual strategy that is most likely to get them laid.

My issue with TRP isn't with things like this. Yes, men and women have the right to pursue any legal sexual or romantic strategy that they want. People are always manipulating each other.

My issue with TRP is the blanket statements about women, such as asserting that all women are children, incapable of logic, etc. etc., while asserting that men are superior in x, y, and z ways, all supported by often baseless rationalizations that amount in a lot of circular logic.

anacrassis · 2015-10-04T00:07:50+00:00

It's arguably immoral to take advantage of the anger of vulnerable young men who have just left a painful relationship to induct them into your misogyny cult.

MorpheusGodOfDreams · 2015-10-04T19:17:26+00:00

The issue is that the instrumental and moral are both intertwined. There would be no moral outrage if TRP did not WORK as a model for understanding women and getting laid.

First, TRP WORKS because women (like all biological organisms) follow trends and behaviors that can be understood and worked like any other system, despite their claims that they are all special snowflakes.

So once TRP works, women must find an excuse to maintain their egocentrism and snowflake mentality. First they say that it only works on damaged women (Hint: most women are damaged in one way or another, especially in the dating realm). Women love this tactic because it both casts doubt on the hunter's skill (you can only catch weak prey) and separates themselves as "superior" women who are not damaged.

But TRP also works on perfectly mentally healthy women, simply for the fact that they are women and have similar attraction cues. Now women fear that they may be gamed by a Red Piller, and feel the disgust that they could be "manipulated" by a beta man pretending to be alpha. That they could feel attraction and even love for someone that had to learn all of this stuff, and is not a natural.

So they say its "immoral." To do what? Well they can't hate on the self improvement, so the only thing women can say is immoral about TRP is its "sexist" viewpoints, calling them "misogyny." But TRP does not hate women, if it did we would all be MGTOW. it hates the lies we are told about women, and is sexist because we understand that men and women are different and complimentary, not interchangeable.

The moral outrage is particularly hilarious because it is the classic female attempt at shaming to police behavior and tone. Men who are not completely broken don't care about that, we only care about what works. If we were raising cattle and found an extremely evil and morally bankrupt way to get more milk and meat to feed our family, of course we would take it without a second thought.

It is women who are in the wrong because they expect men to act like women and bow to social pressure, to know their place as a BB. But here is the heart of TRP in 5 little words:

Men and Women are Different.

[deleted] · 2015-10-03T20:53:24+00:00

I guess the most simplistic moral argument against TRP would be "it's wrong to hurt other people in order to get what you want." Note that this isn't necessarily my personal belief, it's just what i think the main moral issue is with RP. Perhaps BP will disagree. And then we will all disagree on what constitutes "hurt" and whether or not RP does it/advocates it. :)

How can you prove that it would be wrong to use it?

You can't. You can't 'prove' moral claims. Not unless both parties are already agreed on a specific moral system.

"Taking money from hard-working people and giving it to the elss well-off is wrong."

"A wealthy society that allows its own members to go without adequate nutrition and/or healthcare is wrong."

Nobody can 'prove' either of those statements and people are going to agree or disagree with them based on what they believe to be the correct moral belief system.

[deleted] · 2015-10-04T00:10:57+00:00

[permanently deleted]

wtknight · 2015-10-04T00:53:51+00:00

My issues with The Red Pill are mostly with its misogyny and its AWALT beliefs. I have more of a problem with it on a philosophical level than how it operates in practice, although when members of the TRP sub start to talk about stuff like "How to get through last minute resistance" and "How to successfully gaslight women," then I also start to have a problem with how TRPers operate in practice.

ReginaRadfem · 2015-10-05T11:57:40+00:00

TRP is damaging to women. TRP shames sexually liberated women and implies they are not worth committing to. It shames single mothers, despite single mothers being the strongest most noble members of society. It shames professional, independent women who struggle against oppression and discrimination (see: wage gap, glass ceiling.)

It teaches men to be fake, so we women, who already barely have a pool of tolerable men to date (see: lack of male ambition, lack of male degree holders, rampant misogyny, lack of feminist men and even the ones who exist are often annoying)... Now we have the added burden of having to wonder whether men we meet are secretly TRPers who actually hate us, and are just putting on a show of being cocky, rather than having natural confidence.

TRP spreads the lie that men and women are wired different when in fact, all differences between the sexes are the result of historic oppression of women.

What is it red pill apologists say... It's "empowering for men"... Big woop. Who cares. Men are already massively overprivileged and empowered. So once again, TRP inadvertently harms women by widening the gap.

TRP and the manosphere need to be crushed for the sake of all women.

imhereforthemeta · 2015-10-05T16:35:55+00:00

There was a highly upvoted post a few days ago that illustrates this very well for me. It was stating that women are like dogs, which ultimately turned into agreeing that dogs are in fact, more human than women, and to compare a woman to a dog is unfair to dogs.

The Red Pill dehumanizes women. That is the problem with it.

alcockell · 2015-10-03T21:12:49+00:00

What is the thing that "men decided" they don't owe women? Who acted shocked about it and where?

LUClEN · 2015-10-04T06:40:15+00:00

Deontology would say that RP is immoral as it treats people as means to ends

caesarfecit · 2015-10-03T23:13:46+00:00

The only moral argument I can think of against red pill is this - if you hold women to a standard little higher than children, you'll never get to see women at their best. The tyranny of low expectations. If you don't expect more out of women, they'll never achieve a higher standard (at least around you).

That's why I personally believe Red Pill is best in moderation.

Bardorba · 2015-10-04T18:32:24+00:00

My problem with RP is that it is harmful towards the very men it seeks to help. It provides men - often young, damaged men - with a vocabulary for self-abuse.

Once you've read the sidebar and instilled RP values in yourself, it's very difficult to shut down the inner voice that berates your every action as weak or beta. The worst part is, the RP system is constructed to pre-empt such criticism. If you feel shit about acting beta, that's just more evidence in itself that you are beta, because an alpha would be able to hold a strong internal frame. So you feel shit about feeling shit about feeling shit.

It very quickly leads to Imposter Syndrome, where even when you act "alpha", you feel fraudulent in your own skin. RPers would put this incongruence down to the fact that you are trying to act alpha without having adequately raised your SMV. Which only deepens your sense of being a fraud. You begin to overlook those qualities you do possess because you do not fit your own vision of an alpha.

Meanwhile you are struggling with the so-called Iron Laws, or with fundamental beliefs like AWALT. As Alan Watts said "...no one has yet come up with a philosophy, a set of general principles or laws, which does provide adequate rules for action, without first having to be modified into chaos with exceptions. And the sharper one's intellect, the faster one finds reason to take exception to any general principle."

You begin to look to your own life, and though you can see many examples of how RP works, you can also see examples of how it doesn't - perhaps in your own relationships. And yet you have that nagging voice telling you that you only doubt RP because you don't fully understand it, you need to lift more, you need to read that sidebar again, you need to spin plates, then you'll get it. Because maybe all this doubting is just your weak little beta ego trying to survive, trying to find the easy way out.

And so you continue to writhe inside, torn apart by conflict, hating yourself. And the more you hate, the more RP gives you reason to hate.

statsfodder · 2015-10-04T00:56:52+00:00

Okay, but Red Pill says that men are in the right to pursue any (legal) sexual strategy that is most likely to get them laid. And, like a conservative from my analogy, women are livid.

Can you show me women getting livid over terpers saying they have a right to pursue any legal sexual strategy?

thefisherman1961 · 2015-10-04T14:03:07+00:00

There is no moral argument against TRP because TRP is amoral. It doesn't tell you what to do, or even suggest what to do. It just tells you how things are.

bromance946 · 2015-10-04T03:09:08+00:00

False equivalency man. No one owes anyone sex or a relationship. That's clear.

Whether one owes others honesty and treating them with respect is not so clear. Legally, no. Morally, yes.

17b29a · 2015-10-04T01:42:25+00:00

And, like a conservative from my analogy, women are livid. But why? Why can one say that women owe men nothing and then act shocked when men decide they owe women nothing?

do women have an obligation to have sex with men when they don't want to? or how is this supposed to be analogous?

taiboworks · 2015-10-03T20:59:54+00:00

if red pill does not benefit society, then it's never going to be accepted by, acceptable to society long term. for example, a particular group that doesn't hurt anyone and/or does good work in the community is probably going to be accepted by society. on the other hand a group that is more associated with criminal behavior is not likely to be accepted by society.

pyramid companies tend to hurt more people than they help and have thus earned a negative social reputation. people don't respect them, they are suspicious of people involved in them. scientology would be a good example of a group that likely has a negative net effect on society and is looked at negatively as a result.

if red pill has a negative effect on most, on society (regardless of whether it benefits some) it won't be accepted by society. the public consensus on red pill is that it's toxic for society. i don't see how this will change when red pill is about narcissistic, antisocial values, doing what's right for you regardless of morality (i.e. what's right for everyone). i doubt that will change because i don't think red pillers are good at considering what's good/right for everyone/society because they don't tend to be wired like that, that's what drew them to red pill in the first place (similar amoral values).

TylerX5 · 2015-10-04T06:37:20+00:00

Ideas in and of themselves are amoral in nature. They have no ability to cause benefit nor harm (now that's not to say expression of ideas within a given context can not be harmful nor beneficial, but rather any idea in a neutral context such as an internet forum are mostly amoral in nature).

It isn't immoral to think of red pill ideas, it's only immoral to cause harm to others.

I know it's not that simple in the end but overall this is the way I lean.

Title	What would you say is moral case against red pill?
Author	cincilator
Upvotes	9
Comments	211
Date	October 3, 2015 8:32 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3ndpgi/what_would_you_say_is_moral_case_against_red_pill/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-would-you-say-is-moral-case-against-red-pill.279262 https://theredarchive.com/post/279262

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