X-post from TBP: "Dear Young Men..."

boshin-goshin · 2014-10-07T14:56:25+00:00

I don't see how you can get around the 'difficulty' aspect that drives a lot of the distinct standards.

It's not an insignificant thing for the average man to convince a woman to have sex with him. It's exceptionally rare for the average man to be able to be able to frequently or concurrently convince women to have sex with him. Thus it's perceived as a note-worthy achievement.

The average woman faces little to no difficulty in convincing men to have sex with her. The limiting factor is the quality of the man she'd like to have sex with, but that's another matter. Simply put, it's a less impressive feat for the average women to have a lot of sex outside of highly restrictive societies.

So long as these factors are at work, there will never be a consistent standard.

I wholeheartedly agree that calling women "worthless or disgusting or trash" for having a lot of sex is a destructive and shitty thing to do, from what I can tell it's mostly other women who employ these descriptors so as to direct favorable group behaviors.

Others commenters have covered off that virgin-shaming seems to be frequently employed by the very same people that are horrified by and oppose slut-shaming. There's an example of risible hypocrisy for ya.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-10-07T07:56:58+00:00

You shouldn't direct this at just the rpers.

We can criticize rpers for being less sensitive than the rest of reddit for a lot of things, but when it comes to virgin shaming, they are no worse than TBP or the rest of reddit from what I've seen. I guess you might miss these things, but I see a lot more virgin shaming from anti-trp folk dropping by the sub to rant before being banned than virgin shaming from rpers themselves.

I've seen complaints from virgins on ppd and trp, and for the most part rpers seem generally understanding (quite surprising to myself) and would respond very matter of factly. For example, homo_homini_lupus for the last guy I remember here essentially suggested to just forget about shame and go find a prostitute. Most anti-trp folk use that as more fuel for ridicule.

Some of rpers actually feel justified in their slut shaming precisely because of how mainstream virgin shaming is (even among feminists, it's an cheap attack against their mra opponents).

I'm not saying I encourage either. I've made more than one thread and comments questioning the rationale behind slut/virgin shaming/condemnation, but targeting this kind of message specifically against rpers is not going to get us anywhere. Most will just deny responsibility in social change and just say that they are simply reflecting mainstream society in a way that serves their own interest.

We_Are_Legion · 2014-10-07T08:36:28+00:00

About the passage you highlighted;

Not wanting to be a virgin is not always an obsession with status. Sometimes, hell, oftentimes, its a desire to be loved. Its a desire to be desired. That very human craving to be validated by someone else. Most people who are desperate to find a lover for that reason are the incels. The rest can lie and be done with it.

The rest of that article is also tripe. Truly. It sets up some pointless moral crusade for you to grand-stand in idealistic ways based on misinterpreting common sense and prudence into some devil you should forego in favour of feminist propaganda. Where you should just "wing it". I know some of you BP are shedding patriotic tears but this is a really shitty and transparent article. With almost nothing worth gaining by young men, except benefit for the feminist, but phrased like it is in the end, for them to in some way. From the part where he excludes sexual history from the category of people's history, to the part where he tells you that its ok to be awkward and slide through school just getting grades and then salvaging it all in your 20s and 30s, to the part where he plain and simply condescends to you to treat women like people. As if that means anything.

Given that RPers are attempting to buck traditional male social roles of protector/provider, why is there still so much anger and hostility directed at women for doing the same via expressing their sexuality in a similar way that men have always been free to? Btw, I'm not just talking about the newbies in the "anger phase", there are many EC's and mods who've only become more contemptuous and dismissive of women as targets to be fucked and kept at an emotional distance ("divorce rape", etc.).

If you'd asked why we're backlashing against women abandoning their traditional social roles. It would've been an interesting conversation. But since you specifically mention "divorce rape"... There is a lot of data on that. And not just divorce. https://i.imgur.com/rrLe319.jpg

but to call women worthless or disgusting or trash simply for having a high (anywhere from +5 to +10 apparently) count and you don't want to date them for it...what purpose does this serve? It seems like a glaring double standard to only shame women for deviating from traditional roles when you've supposedly abandoned them for yourself, and not really conducive to sex/dating anyway.

Who is doing this? This shaming you speak of implies there are women invited who are actively being told anything disparaging. Is it the people reading on TBP? Are they feeling shamed by an informal conversation that does not include them? If I say "cunt" over there, would I be doing something wrong?

sh1v · 2014-10-07T08:06:58+00:00

This article was posted recently on TBP, what's your take from it?

Lecture on why feminism is right and good and necessary and must be upheld by men, disguised as an article having something to do with masculine identity. In the 2-3% of the article actually having to do with the purported subject, the author somehow manages to argue that masculine identity is both important and "increasingly irrelevant", and that masculine traditions are both perfectly fine and "a load of rubbish."

In other words, "I don't know what being a man is or should be -- but I know it ought to include a healthy blanket acceptance of everything feminism preaches! I shall now proceed to devote 10k words to how important it is that you accept feminism right now, while devoting zero words as to why you actually should."

Given that RPers are attempting to buck traditional male social roles of protector/provider

First, you neglected the significant portion of RP guys looking to have a gender-traditional LTR or marriage.

Secondly, the traditional male social role is master of a household -- the duty to protect and provide flow from that. It is feminism that dismantled traditional male social roles in the first place by eating away at their core. TRP simply recognizes that a few scraps of traditionalism being maintained for the benefit of women, does not true traditionalism make.

I would love to take on a traditional male social role, but unfortunately, those no longer exist in any real sense. The social role of man as the lord and master of his home and family no longer exists, while the role of house eunuch and/or untrustworthy, disposable male slave have expanded to fill the void.

To be fair, feminism also loathes the traditional role of women as submissive, nurturing, highly moral homemakers and child rearers. However, unlike the traditional male role, the female role still has no legal/cultural ban on it. Women who choose to be sluts aren't doing so for lack of any better options -- they're just choosing to be sluts, period. So there's no real equivalency here.

expressing their sexuality in a similar way that men have always been free to

Men have not always been free to fuck around. Especially lower class men. Hell, many used to have their dicks chopped off entirely. Adulterers of both genders were straight up put to death in many biblical era societies. For most of human history birth control did not exist, hence, womanizers were recognized for the ruinous force they were. Some societies were more liberal, but most had some means of coping with the threat posed by promiscuous men and women alike, from shotgun weddings to full on executions.

It seems like a glaring double standard to only shame women for deviating from traditional roles when you've supposedly abandoned them for yourself, and not really conducive to sex/dating anyway.

So what? People aren't disgusted by a human eating feces for any moral reason. It's because their behavior is fucking disgusting, at a gut, instinctive level. You can't help but be repulsed by it. So, too, with the capricious slut who gorges herself on 30 strange cocks.

Some TRPers disagree, of course. We're not all one monolithic group. I've noticed the really high partner count guys are less judgemental in general. Maybe because slut lovers have the easiest time acquiring such a notch count.

awesomesalsa · 2014-10-07T15:35:42+00:00

On the matter of “sluts” – there are none. Nobody is a slut. The number of sexual partners a person has had, or is rumoured to have had, is a) none of your business and b) indicates, by itself, absolutely nothing about the character of that person. If you want to know what kind of person someone is, talk to them. If you believe in personal freedom you cannot believe in sluts.

this is the most BP shit I have ever read

SirNemesis · 2014-10-07T17:13:59+00:00

TRPers don't seek to free themselves from traditional constraints. They recognize that women at large have freed themselves from traditional constraints and as long as the social contract of traditional constraints between the genders is not upheld by women, there is no point for men to try and participate.

TRPACC · 2014-10-07T10:12:54+00:00

I can't take a BP person accusing others of having sexist double standards seriously at all.

TRP are aware of their double standards and present rationalizations for them, bp thought process is apparently unable to even conceptualize its own double standards.

ianturpiesmoustache · 2014-10-07T07:43:24+00:00

[permanently deleted]

RedPill4LYF · 2014-10-07T16:07:14+00:00

It starts out being somewhat agreeable, but by the end you can clearly tell this was a propaganda piece aimed to shit on PUAs and MRAs, labeling it all sexist.

Forget the word “virgin” as a descriptor for both yourself and others. It’s an archaic, irrelevant word, meant to stigmatise and shame people. It oversells a person’s first sex act as some grand, transformational experience, which supposedly vindicates a young man and spoils a young woman. It’s an obsolete, religious, judgmental word. Let’s leave it behind.

The point of leaving the word virgin behind is to help strengthen and legitimize slut behavior as okay, because as the article states, there are no sluts.

Given that RPers are attempting to buck traditional male social roles of protector/provider, why is there still so much anger and hostility directed at women for doing the same via expressing their sexuality in a similar way that men have always been free to?

Women started this shit. You got generations of men who wanted nothing more than loving women to marry and take care of, and they all decided equality wasn't good enough for them. Men are walking away from their expected roles because women left theirs years and years ago. It's only just now that red pillers are really catching on that women have been duping us this long. There's a lot of reason to look down on their kind while praising traditional women. Men may have always been free to do these things you're describing, but I didn't even know what all that entailed until just a few years ago. I was the typical blue pill beta looking for a princess to take care of all the way up until then.

Btw, I'm not just talking about the newbies in the "anger phase", there are many EC's and mods who've only become more contemptuous and dismissive of women as targets to be fucked and kept at an emotional distance ("divorce rape", etc.).

What's an EC?

Furthermore, if it's simply the case that you want someone with a low count to match your own values I'm not sure who'd care, but to call women worthless or disgusting or trash simply for having a high (anywhere from +5 to +10 apparently) count and you don't want to date them for it...what purpose does this serve?

It's a warning to future generations. Men who are red pill aware in any sense are not going to marry sluts. Sluts are meant to be used. There is no room for love with a slut. If women want love, they need to be good women. It's simple.

It seems like a glaring double standard to only shame women for deviating from traditional roles when you've supposedly abandoned them for yourself, and not really conducive to sex/dating anyway.

If women go back to their traditional roles men will have to too. Women are the cause of the problem, men are reacting to it logically. Right now, men are saying fuck it and taking advantage of loose pussy that will be completely worthless for LTR/Marriage in no time at all, because you might as well make lemonade out of a life full of lemons.

Tombstone31 · 2014-10-07T23:40:49+00:00

I think this comes back to the nature vs. nurture argument, and the more I learn about the debate, the more nature seems to be the predominate driver of our behavior.

Looking back at my life, I didn't feel external pressure to have sex, I felt internal pressure. I didn't have older brothers or older male role models pushing me. None of my peers were sexually active, and I knew they weren't. That didn't stop me from feeling an overwhelming urge to have sex. Blaming that on society and telling young boys to get over it won't help anyone. Burying our heads in the sand won't help anyone.

Telling boys not to worry about fitting in is like telling a starving man not to be hungry. We're social creatures; we're either going to figure out how to fit in, or feel inadequate for failing to do so.

And I didn't want to believe what TRP had to say about "sluts," but the studies are there. Women with high partner counts are less likely to be faithful. If your only counter to such studies is that they're "weak," it's hard to find you credible. It's all well and good to say that we shouldn't judge women socially for promiscuity, but I think it's important for men to know what these studies indicate about their potential romantic partners.

richardwrites · 2014-10-08T16:35:13+00:00

I am sorry if this seems off topic at first but please bear with me. I frequent TRP to be honest with you it probably saved my life. For some time I was hanging on to life more out of stubbornness (I did not wish to end in defeat) than any positive reason to live. I have come to wonder why the Blue Pill has such power to hurt me and read the OP article as a sort of experiment. It spun me back into the old feelings for an hour or so but now I am back.

I really do believe that men and women cannot progress without greater understanding of one another. At base we desire to be understood and I think it is this that is so hurts about the BP. The incomprehension.

I would honestly rather be sworn at and insulted by a feminist than be misunderstood by someone who is not born to be a bigot and a hater. I have the impression that even the Blue elements of this board are not out to destroy. They may be angry at men but this is different from a focused desire to destroy.

I would guess that most men read TRP for comfort and rarely approach women- or maybe never do so. Therefore even if the advice given is all wrong it does not matter much. The man has been burned and is done with love. In other words he is a harmless quiet guy that bothers no one.

Brocccooli · 2014-10-08T23:14:21+00:00

There is nothing wrong with a women that has a high notch count. She made her own decisions and that's fine. TRP advises against having a relationship/marrying these kinds of women.

There is no reason a man cannot have his fun with this kind of woman. Take her out, go places, fuck like rabbits, etc. TRP just states that you shouldn't get attached or try to get into an LTR with a woman like this.

StabbyPants · 2014-10-08T23:33:31+00:00

Given that RPers are attempting to buck traditional male social roles of protector/provider

they aren't. they're attempting to do the best they can in the current environment; beta bucks refers to guys that aren't actually desired, but are used for their money. being a provider to a woman who's legitimately into you is great.

why is there still so much anger and hostility directed at women for doing the same via expressing their sexuality

what's that got to do with virginity? hell, there isn't even hostility towards women who are sluts, just an acknowledgment that they tend to cheat more.

There is hostility towards people who try to have it both ways, and rightly so.

contemptuous and dismissive of women as targets to be fucked and kept at an emotional distance ("divorce rape", etc.).

explain yourself. this is a complete non sequitor.

if it's simply the case that you want someone with a low count to match your own values I'm not sure who'd care,

lots of people, apparently.

when you've supposedly abandoned them for yourself,

who's doing this?

tinteoj · 2014-10-07T13:33:50+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Plugawy_Nedznik · 2014-10-08T04:42:42+00:00

It oversells a person’s first sex act as some grand, transformational experience, which supposedly vindicates a young man and spoils a young woman.

Research shows that losing virginity is an almost universally positive experience for men, improving their body image and by extension confidence.

Similarly, most women lose some of their body image after losing their virginity.

That aside, the article is typical blue muppeting. "Oh someone called you x, well don't worry about labels".

babyguineapig · 2014-10-07T07:12:07+00:00

He's a good man. The world needs more like him.

mercifullyfree · 2014-10-07T17:50:45+00:00

expressing their sexuality in a similar way that men have always been free to

Take note: men express their sexuality by pursuing women. So do you mean women who are lesbians, women who use strap-ons, or do you mean FtM transgendered people? In order to express yourself sexually like a MAN, you have to have A PENIS. If you don't have a penis, you're a woman and you're kind of stuck being a woman and having a VAGINA.

For as long as you have a vagina, you will be stuck sexually expressing yourself with a vagina. The hole is not a stick. The stick is not a hole. Wishing it so does not make it so. Get that through your head.

Once you get that through your head, the next thing you have to learn is you can't turn a ho into a housewife. Ever.

why is there still so much anger and hostility

Because people don't get the goddamned basic fundamentals.

a glaring double standard

It would be a double standard if women were men and men were women. As if we were some kind of monogender species. But no, we have two different types of humanoids so there will be two different standards. It's not a double standard, it's two separate standards.

Title	X-post from TBP: "Dear Young Men..."
Author	cuittler
Upvotes	12
Comments	301
Date	October 7, 2014 7:05 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2ijbm7/xpost_from_tbp_dear_young_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/x-post-from-tbp-dear-young-men.284680 https://theredarchive.com/post/284680

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