Is TRP worth debating? For people who are opposed to TRP, does engaging with TRP validate their position?

HalfysReddit · 2014-05-06T04:33:25+00:00

I go to TRP and this sub for the same reasons - to observe and engage in conversation. I like learning and think that one can gleam useful information from even the most unlikely of places. I also like debating as a way of testing and either validating or updating the information I currently have.

As far as TRP being sexist goes, certainly some users are. In fact, I'd even agree that the majority are. I can't defend most of the shit that is posted in there. I think there is useful information to be found, but it's scattered in a sea of bullshit.

[deleted] · 2014-05-06T08:03:35+00:00

Of course it is hateful and sexist but this is precisely why debate it. I disagree with how e.g. racists are treated that instead of people engaging them it is basically like a form of social exclusion. That only causes hidden, seeping hatred that will one day erupt into violence.

Seriously, progressives all over the world tend to do it with e.g. racism and I am really convinced it will end bad, in bloodshed. Here in Europe anyone racist against immigrants does not get debated with just like "get out, nazi" and like this marginalized, suppressed and excluded, and then look at that mass shooting in Norway that it led to. I am afraid there will be many like that.

Basically when liberals and progressives pretend that problem does not exist and just marginalize, exclude and "other" people with certain views, I think they are just inviting violence in the long run.

So I choose not to go along with it and debate people with even the worst kinds of views.

Precisely because if I debate with people, I admit and validate their essential humanity. And I hope this is always reciprocal - that people whose humanity is validated by debating will also see their opponents as human beings and not as cattle to slaughter or pests to exterminate one day.

myfriendscantknow · 2014-05-05T18:08:12+00:00

No, I don't consider TRP worthy of discussion or debate. I don't know why I do it anyway, it's like I can't help myself.

alphabetmod · 2014-05-05T18:52:33+00:00

If you identify with TRP but agree that the multitude of examples I just provided indicate that TRP is sexist, how can you dissociate whatever TRP means to you from what the mods, the endorsed contributors, and the lesser known members who are clearly misogynists say it is? What is so unique and redeeming about TRP that makes wading through the hate and the pseudoscience worth it?

I see this argument all the time, and it makes zero sense to me. I post and read RPW (with me SO occasionally) because some of the users share a similar lifestyle and/or have some similar beliefs about some things. It's a discussion forum with some good discussion, and some bad discussion/generalizations/assholes etc.. Why does it have to be all or nothing? RPW is valuable to me in that there's none of the PC tiptoeing that goes on in every single other relationship or sex oriented sub so when discussing certain subjects you're not getting the watered down feminist approved opinions that people think others want to hear. I might not agree with all or even most of what gets posted there, but that's the beauty of thinking for ones self.

juswannabeanony · 2014-05-06T03:21:30+00:00

I've been here for a few months and the red pill people that I've seen posting here remind me of the militant atheists or the fundamentalist theists you see debating online. I don't think anyone here is going to have their mind changed.

Having said that, I don't think that debating rpers is a waste, it's just that you can't do it to the rational ones on their own sub without getting banned. The only reason I post here is just to pass the time on those slow nights at work, since it keeps me entertained.

JP_Whoregan · 2014-05-05T19:22:19+00:00

No offense, but your post comes off as preachy and condescending. And the fact that you are citing examples from "The Blue Pill" (a sub dedicated to nothing more than the shaming and ridicule of another sub, i.e., a dedicated SRS) is further devaluation of your question. You are trying to engage in shaming similar to that found in TBP, but framing it as a "question" to bait a response on PPD.

TRP is not full of "misogynists". Misogyny is defined as the "hatred of women", and I don't know why the men in TRP would be dedicating so much time and effort to getting women if we hated them so much. TRP is about identifying the goals of women in the dating/sexual arena, and meeting them on the terms they identify with. Common themes in TRP are self betterment, working out, staying in shape, engaging in intellectual pursuit, and overall men's rights, as well as the disparagement of feminism. We reject the notion that women are just like men but without penises. I know, all terrible, terrible notions in today's feminized world. Yet somehow, we are more despised on Reddit than sites that advocate killing babies and promoting nazism.

What the Red Pill hates is feminism. This is not the same as "hating women". If you can't understand and comprehend that, then you're right, there is no debate worth having.

GaiusScaevolus · 2014-05-05T18:53:37+00:00

The whole idea of a logical discussion between partisans here is basically a pipe dream. At the end of the day we're speaking very different languages and neither group exactly debates in good faith.

That said, even plucking forty examples of 'misogyny' in a nearly 50,000 member sub over the course of 2 years is hardly conclusive,(.08% to be precise.) One could find fault with any group or thought at that rate.

hyperrreal · 2014-05-05T19:17:19+00:00

First, Irrationality on this sub is not limited to redpillers by any stretch of the imagination. While I have had many eye-opening/interesting conversations with feminists/bluepillers here, I have also encountered tons of TBP members who have argued very poorly/from emotion, and taken some truly inane positions. Its kind of like how in all those threads about downvoting, tons of TBP/TRP members say the problem is only their side being downvoted. In reality it's obvious that everyone gets downvoted.

I am probably among the more moderate redpill types. I acknowledge what you are saying about the casual 'sexism' on TRP, although I don't think that sub advocates rape the way some of those links made it out to. At least not anymore than your post defending GRRM's original Cersei/Jaime sex scene did.

Does the sexism bother me? No. Misandrist/anti-white/anti-cis tumblrs don't upset me either. I am not the kind of person who gets offended by stuff like that. The reason I post on here, and not in TRP, is because I think circlejerking is boring. And not only boring, but it allows for the intellectual laziness you see a lot of on TRP these days. Working out one's ideas in a debate sub keeps you sharp.

In spite of the poorly managed, angry, group therapy session which is a lot of TRP's content, I do think there is more 'truth' there than many would like to admit. And it's easier for many people to say "that sub is a bunch of crazy women-haters," than to try and sort out what is a meaningful unpacking of our current sexual reality, and what is just unprocessed anger expressed through faux-objectivity.

In closing, here are bunch of links to 'misandrist' content in mainstream publications. I think the sad reality is that men and women have a lot of unaddressed anger towards each, and as result sexism gets clicks and engagement

14 Things Women Do Better than Men (Cosmo) Examples include "learning better," "being cleaner," "being smarter" "being better managers" "being better investors"

6 Ways to Train Your Man (Cosmo)

Women are Tougher, Luckier, and Smarter (HuffPo)

Women are Better Leaders (Business Insider)

Why Women are the Superior Gender (Psychology Today)

How to Train Your Man (Elite Daily)

drok007 · 2014-05-05T18:06:40+00:00

What if I don't agree with what some idiots say on TRP but I do agree that the genders are more different than feminists would have you believe, and work against?

Where do I stand then? I like to stand wherever things are anti-feminist. If it was men's rights, I would be there. If it was TRP I would be there. But it seems like both of them have deviated from that idea.

I think feminism is the issue and everything else are just responses to feminisms failures, which eventually begin to fail themselves. Feminism only needed to go so far as to provide equal opportunity. Expecting equal outcome (only when it benefits some people) is overstepping bounds.

alphabetmod · 2014-05-05T19:06:25+00:00

One other thing... I think you're missing that a lot of the things you linked to are satire/exaggerations/sarcasm that you might be missing. Ex: Pic #20 in the imgur album, 23, 37 etc etc..

That doesn't excuse, and I'm not defending about half of the posts, but the other half or so are obviously not serious.

alphabetmod · 2014-05-05T17:47:18+00:00

[deleted]

Archwinger · 2014-05-05T21:17:08+00:00

When you respond to something, you inherently validate it. When someone says or does something you disagree with, and you rush to confront them for it, that immediately says, "This issue is important, powerful, significant, and strongly provokes my attention and my reaction." That issue might have remained forever insignificant and powerless, but for all of the attention people lavished upon it.

Frankly, I think that people who discover The Red Pill, identify with it, like it, and feel that it works for them should read up and try to improve their lives.

And people who think The Red Pill is stupid, awful, and ignorant should just ignore it. If it's stupid and doesn't work anyway, it's not like you or anybody you know is having sex with these deranged men. They're not having sex at all because it doesn't work, or a best only fucking stupid people. Let them have their little internet circle jerk where they talk shit about women while never getting any and dying virgins, right? If it's so fucking dumb and insignificant and ineffective, just ignore it.

The fact that there's some kind of internet war over The Red Pill is dumb.

SlippyToadsWildRide · 2014-05-05T19:15:08+00:00

If you identify with TRP but agree that the multitude of examples I just provided indicate that TRP is sexist, how can you dissociate whatever TRP means to you from what the mods, the endorsed contributors, and the lesser known members who are clearly misogynists say it is? What is so unique and redeeming about TRP that makes wading through the hate and the pseudoscience worth it?

I'm going to attempt to answer your question as best as I can. I don't identify 100% with TRP, but there are bits of it that I agree with and that have helped my life improve in nearly every way.

I agree with a lot about what you said about TRP. I think there's a lot of misogyny in the community, and some of the advice given is borderline sociopathic. But there's also some good advice hidden beneath it's shitty exterior that can help a lot of clueless, unattractive, frustrated men.

From basic things such as the importance of physical fitness, how to set boundaries of what is and isn't acceptable to say/do to you (aka don't be a doormat that lets women walk all over them with the hopes of maybe getting sex out of it), to less well-known things such as the differences of what men and women are attracted to and respond to, men and women's differing mating strategies, etc. All of this can be useful info to someone who has no idea about it (and yes, there are PLENTY of men who don't).

So to answer your question of what is so redeeming about TRP with all of the misogyny? It's that there's really NOTHING else available that produces positive results in guys that is delivered in such a straight forward, no bullshit manner. A LOT of men are completely clueless with how to attract a woman, and they start to find that everything mainstream that they've been told (be nice, give her compliments and lots of attention, take her out to dinner, wait until the third date to make a move, etc etc) isn't working. So what else is there? This community of assholes that gives a lot of info, some of it good, some of it shit, but it's the best there is.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know there are a lot of guys who read TRP, cherry pick what's useful, and discard the rest (the misogyny, hatred, etc). People are aware of it's huge faults, but have come to the conclusion that wading through all the shit to find a good nugget of info is better than ending up a doormat like this guy.

tl;dr: There's nowhere else (that I know of) that exists that has a large community of no bullshit advice that gets results. You just have to deal with (ie: ignore) all of the shitty aspects of it. The pros (positive self improvement aspects) outweigh the cons (misogyny, hatred, sociopathic advice).

Rainymood_XI · 2014-05-13T10:52:08+00:00

You can not discuss how to catch fish with fish, nor vegetarians.

[deleted] · 2014-06-05T21:49:13+00:00

Good question.

On one hand, I don't think anybody is beyond redemption, so to speak. I believe people are fundamentally good, and that some people just lose their way. I feel like the vast majority of TRP can be reached, and when they finally realize the way the world works, they're going to look back at their TRP days and cringe.

On the other hand, I'm fucking tired. There's so much to work through, it's hard to find a place to start, and a place to stop. The absolute lack of basic critical thinking skills blows my mind. Beyond that, they lack the basic information necessary to form a realistic opinion on the role of gender in society, and frankly, I don't have the patience to spend all day on the internet trying to help people who think I'm a loser because I don't think you have to act like a macho douche bag to be happy.

I know there is a stereotype of tumblr feminists shutting down arguments by just saying "educate yourself", but honestly, that's really all I have energy for. I'm not explaining critical thinking, feminism, gender roles, sociology, discourses, rape culture, and dozens of other topics. I've lost the taste for blood.

fizolof · 2014-05-05T22:17:57+00:00

I'm surprised to be included in the album, in a glorious first place. I'd also like to mention that, aside from daring to pose the provocative question of why is it bad to hate women, I also think that it would probably be positive if we took away women's right to vote, am against gay marriage, and hate gays. I guess I have to be a baby eating sociopath in real life.

juswannabeanony · 2014-05-05T19:50:56+00:00

[deleted]

AshleyYakeley · 2014-05-06T09:47:12+00:00

That's a remarkably crappy flowchart. The purpose of discussion or debate is not to change the other's views, but to discover truth.

Just because someone would never change their mind, doesn't mean discussion with them is pointless.
The position that is more reasonable and has more supporting evidence should not be accepted as true, merely as more likely.
It's perfectly reasonable to move on to other arguments while earlier arguments are unresolved: it helps explore the issue from multiple angles.
Strictly speaking, some arguments do not need evidence. For example, since the presentation of evidence is itself an argument, and one might demand evidence for the existence of evidence, then the chain of evidence has to terminate at some point.
"deemed to have conceded" and "forfeit any right to complain" are private concepts with no "rational" basis or objective force outside the speaker's own emotions. (They also come across as rather petulant.)

Bear in mind that thinking in general is a human activity, not an abstract activity. It's merely something that humans do in a variety of particularly human ways. So there are no purely abstract objective calculations about which position has been proven or not.

[deleted] · 2014-05-06T17:00:57+00:00

I got rid of the comment, but as an FYI I'm thinking about removing the post as well. There's quite a few insults there, and regardless of whether or not I agree or whether examples can be given, we try to maintain a neutral tone in the posts.

juswannabeanony · 2014-05-06T17:20:12+00:00

Let's all take a nice look at our OP (please BAN this troll):

1) Thinks the opposition is the best place for information about a topic. Apparently she'd look to the Nazis for information about Jews. Then she admits TBP is just circlejerking satire. Then admits they shouldn't be a source at all...

I was waiting for this argument to pop up. TBP was created in specific opposition to TRP, of course it's the most reliable source for information about TRP that isn't actually TRP, that's literally the whole point of the sub.

Except for the fact that TBP explicitly presents itself as a satirical circlejerk, it's stated in the sidebar.

The blue pill allows serious posts, but it doesn't encourage them. The top three posts of all time and the majority of the top ten are all circlejerky. I don't value TBP as a source overall...

2) Posts a thread about "debating" TRP then mocks this sub's ability to have a debate.

Hahaha, seems like there needs to be a "here for the drama" flair on this sub.

This is part of why I think participating in "discussions" on this sub is futile.

I think rational discussion should be enforced instead of encouraged here, but the mods seem unwilling to turn this sub into a proper debate sub. It's barely a productive discussion sub as it is, almost every post results in a bunch of petty arguing.

Can you show me a few examples of productive, rational discussions held by two people on opposing sides here at PPD? Because I just looked, and they seem like quite a rarity.

3) Ignores dissenting arguments to claim they aren't reading her whole post

I didn't compile any of these, they're linked from various effort posts. Your unwillingness to click through more than one example just proves your bias.

The point of listing so many examples isn't so you can glance at the first one you see, decide it's not irrational, and completely ignore the rest of the material I provided.

It's far from a few. Did you even read them? There's over 40 examples in one album alone, and I listed three other compilations on top of that.

...then does the same thing to a reply

No offense, but I only read your TLDR because there's absolutely no way I could address whatever points you made in your 1000+ word essay concisely, I'm not trying to write a dissertation.

4) This post speaks for itself: "Citation needed" then proceeds to give a biased opinion completely devoid of proof

Citation needed. TRP is full of bullshit pseudoscience designed to gratify a specific type of man's ego, the vast majority of the "science" on TRP are blog links and popsci.

5) Demands proof

I'm a feeeeemale, fyi. If I show objective proof to support my assertions, how am I biased? I'm not making a claim without backing it up, like you are.

...then posts a plethora of posts merely based on what she "thinks."

Part of the reason why TRP is such a hotbed of hatred is because subscribers with dissenting opinions are likely to get banned.

TRP is full of bullshit pseudoscience designed to gratify a specific type of man's ego, the vast majority of the "science" on TRP are blog links and popsci.

I think political correctness has fewer victims than sexism.

[deleted] · 2014-05-05T23:49:30+00:00

Well, the question of how much biology influences our behaviors vs. "society" (which I argue makes no sense as culture and society is a product of biology, but that's another argument) effect who we are is undetermined.

You can't force people to be moral, and if TRP can exploit cultural norms (norms that are changeable or not) to achieve an end, then there's not much you can do about it.

I personally don't buy into the "culture is the cause of all woes" card that gets played by feminists. I really don't like the atmosphere of TRP that much, though, because no person really wants to see a bunch of men cry about how evil women are. I mean, are women more likely to use sex to exploit men than vice versa? Sure, so live your life accepting that people have the capacity to be really shitty. I don't see why you need endless reaffirmation of that point.

robesta · 2014-05-05T21:10:25+00:00

All dogs lick their own butts. Am I a dog hater now?

You equate misogyny to saying that women have negative qualities. You cherry pick individual posts and disregard the theme of the thread.

I think the waste of time is me trying to argue with someone with hurt feelings that I don't have any useful reason to convince that what I believe is true.

juswannabeanony · 2014-05-05T21:24:38+00:00

While you're throwing stones, you might want to look in your own house.

If you continually advocate for preferential treatment in society out of one side of your mouth, then out of the other say that you want to abolish "cis-gendered heteronormative roles in society" people aren't going to take you very seriously and you're going to get mocked.

When you stop needing special help getting jobs, getting health insurance, special treatment in colleges and in criminal and civil law courts, demand men buy you expensive gifts to woo you into life partnerships, demand men pick up your dinner tabs and pay your bills for you, demand that courts/tribunals convict/find in your favor based on just your words, and all the other special snowflake bullshit you ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE while simultaneously DENYING ANY AND ALL PRIVILEGE YOU HAVE AS A GENDER then maybe just maybe the number of men who think you're all a bunch of spoiled rotten children throwing temper tantrums to get their way all the time will start to shrink.

And I haven't even mentioned the evil, vindictive, asinine, selfish bullshit most of you pull in divorce...

Don't get mad at us for noticing, discussing your bullshit behavior and game-planning on how we can make the best of a bad situation.

Why don't you stop talking about equality and start actually being about equality? Hmm..?

You want our respect? Earn it. If you don't want to do that, then continue to expect the backlash.

All this is - is just another shit test made to shame us so we'll shut the fuck up and you'll be better able to get your selfish little way in life stepping on our heads when it suits you.

Not going to happen.

Villaintine · 2014-05-06T03:24:15+00:00

Is TRP worth debating?

Not at all. BP is rarely here for any other reason than to poke holes in things said at TRP, they have no underlying focus aside from anything that is anti-TRP and no matter what scientific evidence is produced for or against views aren't radically changed on either side.

TRP'ers will continue following TRP advice because when all is said and done it works, no matter what arguments may be brought up. It doesn't matter if the language used is sexist, bigoted, or simply offensive. Those things are irrelevant to what information subscribers to TRP are looking for and until women stop showing favorable results to TRP strategies TRP will continue to grow.

arhombus · 2014-05-05T17:51:54+00:00

TRP isn't sexist, if anything TRP demands equal treatment of the sexes. Do have an actual question? TRP is rooted in practicality, not in theory.

Villaintine · 2014-05-06T02:32:02+00:00

It's almost like rule 4 doesn't exist.

newguyacct · 2014-05-06T04:52:16+00:00

This is a perfectly rational point of view - http://i.imgur.com/cOigR33.png. Embrace and love the differences.

It's also NOT comparing women to dogs which people seem to be too stupid to comprehend. It's a fucking analogy.

I saw the meta post yesterday with people complaining about the direction this sub has taken, and I think this is a big part of why PPD is less popular than TBP or TRP. Most people wouldn't argue with hardcore racists or religious fundamentalists, because it's impossible to have a rational discussion about an irrational belief.

Are you willing to change your mind? Are you willing to discuss your irrational beliefs?

juswannabeanony · 2014-05-06T13:00:41+00:00

You're right, why do you bother debating TRP? You so obviously have no ability whatsoever to change your mind or consider differing opinions. We go there to improve, you go there out of some sick obsession. So who really has the problem?

Title	Is TRP worth debating? For people who are opposed to TRP, does engaging with TRP validate their position?
Author	juswannabeanony
Upvotes	17
Comments	318
Date	May 5, 2014 5:36 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/24sha2/is_trp_worth_debating_for_people_who_are_opposed/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-trp-worth-debating-for-people-who-are-opposed.285773 https://theredarchive.com/post/285773

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