Avoiding types that are dead-ends: can artsy men ever be HVM?

chasingastarl1ght · 2020-11-09T16:06:34+00:00

Ah, the softboy. The sensitive equivalent of the fuckboy. He is so sorry he played with your emotions 🥺 but he'll do it again... You're just sooo pretty, he can't help himself. But like, he really likes you and respect women, he's just not ready for a relationship cause his cat died like 12 years ago and it really confronted him to the meaning of life and how death can be sudden and...

Yeah, I know the type. What is it that you like about the type? Shared taste in art/music? The appeal of a guy that's sensitive/softer? I realized, for me, it was that they tended to showcase less of the "toxic loud masculinity" that really turns me off and were usually more soft spoken.

While those traits are often present with the artsy men, they also show up in other branch - usually the lucrative-but-boring jobs (think accounting). I feel like those guys are also more balanced because they have career and then the artsy stuff becomes a hobby that is not just video games or watching sports on tv. They'll be drawing, painting, reading, collecting music, going to shows, art exposition, etc. Which makes them stable but also interesting and well rounded.

divination__ · 2020-11-09T16:41:18+00:00

Okay I spent most of my early 20s and up until my mid-20s with these sorts of guys. I dated photographers, videographers, graphic designers, a poet (for two years ) and a musician for four (🤮). I will never date a creative man again. Of course, there are some good points - politically they tend to align with me, it's cool to be able to talk about niche music/film tastes, I love well-dressed men. However... those are such surface things.

Creative men are always on the narcissistic scale, in my experience. The relationship I was in the longest was definitely with a gaslighting narcissist. They think their artistic ambitions are so damn important, and they think you should sacrifice your own ambitions so they can fulfil their dreams. The default position for a man is to believe a woman is there to help him fulfil his goals, and he does not need to reciprocate. This is how they were raised and creative men especially so, they need that self-belief that they are destined for greatness to help makeup for any inadequacies they feel about not earning a lot (even if they don't admit it, they will feel it). Honestly, watch the Phantom Thread, that is exactly how I felt in each of these relationships. They love dating creative women but they hate when you're more successful. Every single one of my exes was threatened by my success, even though they'd pretend to be supportive, not in the way I was. They will never actually be supportive - e.g. making concessions in their careers to help sustain yours, support you financially, give up their time to help you with your projects.

In regards to sex - some were actually incredibly left wing and anti-porn. Some were extremely into shit like 'ethical non-monogamy', etc. This is more on the individual but honestly I find a lot of 'creative' types think they're too cool and special for a monogamous relationship.

Finally, all the stuff I thought I valued - shared interests, cool style, shared politics, didn't actually line up. They'd like my taste in films but they'd be dismissive in relationships towards me actually want to watch them. They'd 'borrow' from my tastes but not give me credit. They'd say they are feminist but still be emotionally abusive.

I am now strictly dating only men with serious careers. And you know what? Just because someone doesn't roll up their jeans doesn't mean they're not interesting. I've only been on dates with men who earn 6 figures and went to the most prestigious universities, and plenty of them also naturally enjoy the same things as me - the same indie artists, the same '60s films, yoga, humour, whatever - but they actually don't take you to some pub and expect you to split 50/50. And when they're not into the same stuff, I realised that film and music and all this stuff is not actually what I even talk about most of the time. It's a surface level similarity. It is not the same as having the same values, or the same sense of humour. Of course some arty men can be HV. I have a friend with a musician husband, they married a year after meeting and have the most loving family six years later with two babies, he supports her graphic design career and retrained as a graphic designer as well and they have their own studio. However I know far more women with 'creative' men who do fuck all around the house, need to be supported by them financially, need to be dragged into marriage. But ultimately - that is just the ration of HVM to LVM across all fields and not specific to creative men.

All that said, I would never date a creative man again. When I reassessed what I actually want from life, I realised no creative man would fulfil that. I want a partner who could be like a rock for me, supportive and stable. I want the freedom to be THE creative person in the relationship, THE one following their creative dreams, and to be with someone who is proud of me but not threatened by that. I am a freelance creative with a pretty successful career already. When I lived with my freelance creative ex I was constantly stressed and had zero support from him, fiscally, emotionally, even creatively. What I thought was creative ambition in him was also absolute myopic self-interest. I was a pretty accessory with a 'cool' job that he didn't actually care about, I just fit in with his narcissistic self-image. I've now only been dating clean-cut well-educated men, and no longer even interested in the creative types because I feel they have so little to offer. And you know what? I went on a date with an Oxford graduate who earns 6 figures the other day who I would have previously deemed 'boring' - he turned out to have a music taste more aligned with me than my musician-ex and he paid for dinner before I'd even noticed the bill. I also recently went on a date with a patent attorney who also shared a love for a very specific genre of '60s films as me. I now look for men who seem, above all, to be kind and generous and to have their shit together. Creative types have literally nothing to offer me because frankly, if a man loves you he will learn to appreciate your tastes and interests, so why not then fall in love with a man who can actually offer you stability and make your life easier?

ThrowRA745318 · 2020-11-09T16:02:43+00:00

Hm. So, I think that there is not a default "type" of HVM as it's about personality and values, not interests.

But - saying that - I do think that certain careers/industries have a higher appeal to certain personality types. A bit like law enforcement attracts a higher percentage of controlling personalities, I suspect you're hitting that same wall in your creative field.

eveninghope · 2020-11-09T16:23:09+00:00

I've dated a couple aspiring musicians and they're just soooo sEnSiTiVE. I think people are drawn to certain careers for a reason. The guys I've met who are creatives do it bc they want to ExPreSS tHeMsElVeS and are like, allergic to responsibility and accountability. But that also translates to relationships. The guy's I've dated cannot handle trying to meet a partners needs or take any sort of negative feedback like their world is ending. I'm sure there are those who are in like, graphic design or UI bc they can flex their creative muscles but they're also reasonably stable, lucrative careers.

I had a therapist once tell me that relationships are supposed to be a little boring. At the time I was like, wait wtf? But now that I'm in my 30s I get what she means. My best relationships have been with guys who have boring jobs they really care about being good at. I also tend to like guys where we have shared interests and that's where the excitement comes from, not from me trying to "understand" them whatever the fuck that means. So yeah, I tend to date SUPER boring dudes (engineers, teachers, etc.) and I'm someone who goes to work in conflict zones and talks at academic conferences and shit, so the REST of my life is really interesting/stressful. I don't need that type of stimulation from my partner. From my partner, I need to know that my partner will make dinner and go to a museum with me every now and again.

Random192859184 · 2020-11-09T16:39:40+00:00

I still don’t entirely believe in the existence of HVM so I’m not the best to answer this question. I will however say that men who call themselves “feminists” are pretty much always terrible human beings and only support the kind of “feminism” that caters to men (liberal feminism). I avoid them like the plague.

azureangel35 · 2020-11-09T18:20:34+00:00

Oof. I have also primarily dated musicians and soft boys. I do think there is some evidence for artistic types having a higher incidence of mental health conditions like bi polar disorder, and sometimes unfortunately, having a mental health condition can aid creativity.

I don’t think the soft boy is more likely to be shitty than any other type, just that you’re more likely to be blindsided because his soft boy ways make you stop vetting and take your guard down.

Story time: I dated the most notorious of soft boys once and it’s still a subject of jokes around my friends to this day. His house was immaculate, like imagine a garden of well-maintained house plants, fresh cut flowers, only craft beer and organic food, beautiful custom lighting fixtures, very stylish modern furnishings, philosophy books, great sound system, only listened to Apple Music, not Spotify, he re-did his own bathroom for fun, he had all sorts of neat kitchen appliances and enjoyed cooking. Always smelled amazing. Almost all his best friends were lesbians or other soft boys. He always paid on dates, helped me around my house when he visited, bought me gifts and flowers, generally seemed sweet and attentive.

Red flag #1 I overlooked is he was awful at texting, like absolutely awful, and he said it was because he wanted everything to be meaningful and texts weren’t meaningful enough.

Things started to unravel when he became more antisocial. I thought he might have an untreated mental health condition, and I gently advised him to seek treatment, but he never did and he never really listened to my input about this.

Eventually he announced he had been fired from his job, and he admitted to cheating on me throughout our relationship with his friend, who also currently had a boyfriend. I later learned from his former colleague he had been fired in part due to his repeated sexual harassment of one of his female coworkers, who was also married, and he had publicly bragged about being able to break up relationships. A few other women also came forward after he was fired about his sexual harassment of them. He never owned up to any of this, and accused me of being verbally abusive towards him for the manner in which I broke up with him, which did include name calling on my part.

A lot of the guys in my area are very open about being a fuck boy and have lives that revolve around sporting events and drinking cheap beer and going fishing or to pool, so I was definitely blindsided by this.

But, if you think about it, in a previous age, there was a stereotype of the cultured fuck boy, usually called a “dandy” or a “rakehell,” who may have been an earl or a duke, involved in poetry or acting, sometimes even cultured enough to be mistaken for homosexual, but often notorious in their womanizing, and I think some of these more cultured guys are essentially a modern lowkey version of that.

MulticoloredCatMug · 2020-11-09T17:58:41+00:00

Men in general lack the ability to be emotionally serious. The artsy types have a certain performative emotional quality to them, but it ends up being exactly like what you described.

The truth is that the vast majority of men are shit, it doesn't matter what flavor of shit they are, it's all gross.

If you want to be with another creative, look for one who has some level of success in his field. Is he running his own creative business or is he just whining and painting in his dirty studio apartment? What are his relationships with other women like? If he doesn't respect the women around you he isn't going to respect you. When he makes plans with you, does he follow through? I think creatives will excuse disorganization and lateness because lack of concern for others has been packaged as an artistic quality, but I don't know of any artists whose work suffered for being respectful of others.

Maybe do some self-searching about why you feel bored with well-adjusted men. I used to think well adjusted men were boring too, but I realized that I was mistaking toxic behaviors and emotional abuse for excitement. Now I know that anyone who I find exciting shortly after meeting them is actually probably dangerous for me to be around.

EclecticBarbarella · 2020-11-09T18:05:20+00:00

I know a guy who meets that description and I would consider a HVM, but like with any other category that’s rare. He’s a HVM first and an artsy fartsy second (he’s also my cousin, and somehow that side of the family just cranks out good men, they’re all HVM from what I’ve seen, it just defies logic), anytime a scene becomes their whole personality, i would run.

I also won’t touch the full on “rock star” types with a ten foot pole, they all have delusions of grandeur and end up being wanna be “polys” (and by that I mean they want to be allowed to fuck everything that moves but want you to stay home and be faithful)

2020-11-09T18:42:14+00:00

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Owl-right · 2020-11-09T19:45:34+00:00

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wayward_woman · 2020-11-09T22:47:02+00:00

Artsy hipster types can be HVM. There's nothing inherently wrong with being creative and artistic. The same rule applies to these men as any other men: VET RELENTLESSLY! Take your time getting to know a man. Don't get emotionally attached early on. Ask as many questions as possible. Closely pay attention to their behavior in all kinds of scenarios. Always keep your eyes open for red flags. Don't have sex with a man for at least 3 months. And even after 3 months have passed, don't just have sex with him because it's been 3 months and you feel like it's time. Only have sex once you're certain a man is a good person and you know you won't regret the experience afterwards.

Kimpractical · 2020-11-09T21:26:31+00:00

I don’t use OLD anymore but when I did, I would automatically swipe left on musicians and other artsy types. I just cannot take them seriously, they are not capable of any kind of mature adult relationship

43rdaccount · 2020-11-09T22:17:41+00:00

</3 the reasoning is: they show care for interesting things, we might have a connection that way, they can see the beauty in life... to me the beauty in human connection and love is clearly related to the sublime in art. yet it's still possible for these same men to fear intimacy and depth and not see the humanity in you. it's definitely misleading to say the least.

2020-11-10T04:39:26+00:00

Ugh, I understand. I actually never got serious with these types of guys despite them “seemingly” being a good match for me. I’m a creative, artistic type, play indie/folk music, write poetry, got the arts college degrees (that landed me fuck all jobs btw). And I find other women like me, tend to be very sensitive and actually “soft” in the empathetic ways. After briefly dating and promptly dumping a guy like this I realized it was a NOPE for men like this. Also having a couple guy “friends” (more acquaintances ) like this. They’re massive gate keepers, super insecure and will tear apart your own art and creations, often passive aggressively. They gaslight about it too but you had better bet they expect all of their work is just about worshipped by you. They are also hopeless at listening to any views but their own. Like I couldn’t have my own opinions and I definitely couldn’t escape from hearing theirs. They sometimes seem jealous. I think two things here is 1: I am attracted to the idea of a soft boy because the word soft to me means “emotionally intimate and sensitive”. NOT TRUE. And 2: just date myself, I’ll be way happier

Karthasis11 · 2020-11-10T09:46:16+00:00

I find that most of the time it's sheltered guys from quite stable and wealthy ( upper middle class +) , who don't k ow any sorrows. Therefore they try to create this narrative that they somehow are damaged for reasons like the cat that died 12 years ago, that someone mentioned.

And I am not surprised they are falling for the manic pixie dream girl, those are often from wealthy families too. This lifestyle is quite expensive. And is hard to always be bubbly and exciting, if you have to work to put yourself through uni and you're studies are not that trivial.

It boils down to people who seem to be free spirited , because so far they hadn't had a lot of hardship.

throwRA8935747835 · 2020-11-09T22:59:29+00:00

I've also been played by those artsy fuckboy types. But it seems a bit shallow now, in my opinion - trying so hard to come off as unique and deep, that you end up wearing a uniform.

On the third date or so with my current partner, he described himself as "pretty square" when we talked about some past experiences. I disagree - he is a stable, well-rounded guy that treats other people right and actually dives into his interests without being obsessed over nursing his own image. It is a world of difference to those "ohh my first girlfriend hurt me so now I use women, complicate their lives, and write poetry slam" type of guys.

2020-11-09T23:14:59+00:00

I typed many paragraphs and changed my mind. The short answer it’s possible but very unlikely.

134340-92494 · 2020-11-10T04:12:20+00:00

Maybe slightly off topic, but I was a music major for a time. I had two relationships with fellow vocalists, and they were absolute disasters. I was constantly doing their emotional labor, constantly reassuring and validating their work, talent, and hell, their whole existences, and constantly felt like I was “the man” in the relationship. I’m not saying every creative man is like this. But I will say all my girlfriends in the same program had similar complaints about their boyfriends and husbands. I am now wary of artistic and creative types as romantic prospects.

amievenreal99 · 2020-11-09T22:51:39+00:00

I used to be the queen of pickmes. Gaming is my largest hobby, and I work in IT. There are a lot of failures in my branch. The nonshowerers, the manbabies, the irresponsible, the narc, the sexist, the porn addict.

I had been brainwashed into thinking "As a woman I have it so easy. I'm sure they're great. All they need is a chance to show me they are nice people".

I think you can count men in IT and gaming as "creative types". Or maybe all types are garbage. But men in IT and gaming... oh god, do I have horror stories.

Blackzebra92 · 2022-07-04T16:34:11+00:00

Hello, didn’t expect to find myself here and I hope I’m not intruding but I really would love to know from a woman’s perspective my situation. I just got dumped out of a five-year relationship that is for lack of better words taking a massive toll on me. To the point that it sometimes feels like my psyche almost is having a legitimate meltdown. Having to go out back into this world is different than where I left it. i’m legitimately terrified. I don’t mind dating around but I am i’m a Life partner kind of guy. I’ll just put it like this, I’m a 30 year olds ask Chef turned bartender who gravitates towards artistic forms of expression. I tend to be impulsive extremely passionate and intense in the way that I express myself as well as the way that I show my love and affection and dedication to the people I care about. I didn’t go to college. I don’t work in a industry that makes a shit ton of money but I love what I do and I look at a partner as a person on a similar path willing to experience the journey with me. I have a lot of deep connected love and patience to offer. As well as the deep desire to be the best father and lover us and friend I can be.

I’ve been through break ups before I’ve been in love before but after losing this woman who was preparing to start a family with me and change my perspective on love has severely left me in a place of pure unadulterated hopelessness. And I can’t put any more emphasis on that. Not only am I having a hard time finding a job to take care of myself and feel empowered in my career and in my life but I’m also afraid that if my ex doesn’t want to reconcile with me when I’m left in the world where women won’t see me as someone worth going through life‘s ups and downs with. Ladies please let me know what you think I know that a lot of the way that I feel right now is due to my heartbreak but this woman meant the universe to me and has shown me love and affection saw me for who I was on the inside and letting her go is absolutely devastating inside and also physically at the moment.

Title	Avoiding types that are dead-ends: can artsy men ever be HVM?
Author	hm_idunno
Upvotes	110
Comments	47
Date	November 9, 2020 4:20 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/FemaleDatingStrategy
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/jqqtfq/avoiding_types_that_are_deadends_can_artsy_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/avoiding-types-that-are-dead-ends-can-artsy-men.324624 https://theredarchive.com/post/324624

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