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How did she not know he was like that BEFORE the baby?

mahneen

May 25, 2020

630 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	How did she not know he was like that BEFORE the baby?
Author	mahneen
Upvotes	630
Comments	74
Date	May 25, 2020 5:48 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/FemaleDatingStrategy
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/gqfkkt/how_did_she_not_know_he_was_like_that_before_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/how-did-she-not-know-he-was-like-that-before-the.675191 https://theredarchive.com/post/675191

Comments

[–]ldnsurvivalFDS Newbie359 points360 points361 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]HornetKickFDS Newbie55 points56 points57 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lalalaicanthearyou99FDS Newbie23 points24 points25 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]abirdoftheskyFDS Newbie164 points165 points166 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]LateNightLattes01FDS Newbie19 points20 points21 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]rwilkzFDS Newbie17 points18 points19 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]BurningSalamiFDS Newbie[🍰] 43 points44 points45 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]VaporwaveVampirePickmeisha™️7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]gcthrowaway2019FDS Apprentice74 points75 points76 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]gskneiskenthrowaway25 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kekekeke7777FDS Newbie166 points167 points168 points 6 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

[–]outside-perceptionFDS Newbie119 points120 points121 points 6 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kekekeke7777FDS Newbie101 points102 points103 points 6 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I had a coworker who’s husband was her h.s. sweetheart. A very cute story. Great marriage for years. Seemingly an HVM in all areas and especially to her. She adored him and it wasn’t a front. I saw her genuine happiness and how well she thrived. She spoke about how he lifted her up. Their daughter was born. He was a great dad! Just like she hoped he’d be. He had a great job and she did as well- her passion. She didn’t need to work but she wanted to. He did most of the housework and parenting when she was at work. This woman was amazing.

Their son was born and he totally rejected the son from day 1. She was strategizing to leave because of it. So she started working a second job at night and had to call her husband constantly while there since he couldn’t be trusted to care for their infant son, even though he’d done so well with their daughter. As heart broken as she was, she didn’t believe it was malicious. He broke down crying and said his father parented him so poorly that parenting a son was so terrorizing for him. He put himself in therapy. She tried to be understanding. But she told me the reality was that he was parenting their daughter well while actively neglecting their son and this gave her no choice but to leave.

[–]outside-perceptionFDS Newbie43 points44 points45 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Kekekeke7777FDS Newbie32 points33 points34 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]HornetKickFDS Newbie12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]silvernikki 53 points54 points55 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 61 points62 points63 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]outside-perceptionFDS Newbie20 points21 points22 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]curlygirl507FDS Apprentice56 points57 points58 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]tw231116FDS Newbie10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rinabeanFDS Disciple37 points38 points39 points 6 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

As far as I can tell, this is a harmful myth that ultimately makes women more vulnerable to abuse. If we believe men can really do a 180, vetting becomes less important, but I think it's absolutely crucial.

It's hard to say what someone else didn't see, but we can always look at what they say they did see, right? I had a quick look on your profile. Military is a red flag career, definitely not an ideal father (or compassionate). You say you suspected him of cheating throughout your whole marriage. You moved country to live with him, but he couldn't even support you properly (you mentioned a cramped apartment). Then, after all of that, you had a child in that situation. I don't think those were hidden or absent signs, I think they were all things you knew. It doesn't at all excuse a single thing he did to you - he is entirely to blame for his own actions - but I do think it means he didn't change.

[+][deleted] 6 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]rinabeanFDS Disciple6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]tw231116FDS Newbie1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]gravesearcherFDS Newbie0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes!

It's not necessarily that they do a 180, it's that many people don't know the red flags are red flags especially when you get together with someone when you're young and inexperienced.

I got together with my husband at 16 (he was 19). We were together for over 20 years and then he divorced me for the 23 year old he was having an affair with. I kept asking myself how he could do this to me, especially since we didn't have relationship issues, hadn't been fighting, and I tried hard to be a good wife.

I didn't understand that it was HIM who was the problem and he was like this this the entire time, I just didn't realize it because I swept things under the rug, made excuses, and flat out didn't see some things as the personality problems they were. One of the biggest red flags is someone who lovebombs. It was fascinating to see the bits of his affair with her that he wasn't able to hide from me. He lovebombed her and it was all bullshit. He lovebombed me in the beginning, but I didn't have the experience to see know that.

A good way to hone your vetting skills is to date and get experience. I didn't do that. Also, listening to the people who learn before you. And love yourself. It's your protection from ending up with guys like this.

Now that I'm dating, I get really put off by the guys who are in it way too fast. I was just talking to someone a few months ago and in the first conversation, he was already acting super excited, making statements like "I was about to give up until I started talking to you!" and "Hey, maybe one day we could take a trip there!" How about no, Scott. I stopped talking to him.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Sometimes it's really hard to "vet" certain things. For example, watching your partner interact with other people's children in a kind way is one thing... but if he has a child of his own and also has a deep-seated attitude that "children are property of their parents", you'll see him behave differently towards his own child. He might act kind towards other people's children because he figures "that child belongs to X, and not me, so I can't beat him the way I would if he were MY son!"

Guys like this won't openly admit that they feel their children and wives are their personal property, because they're smart enough to know women might reject having relationships with them. I wouldn't have assumed that my ex would think like that because although he was raised Catholic, he wasn't religious and therefor I wouldn't have assumed he'd have the whole "men are superior, male supremacy must rule in the family" mindset... he seemed to act respectfully towards other women in real life... he was patient with other people's children.

My ex was super polite and kind to many women and other people's children, but was a bully to myself and our kid when no one was looking. I had no way of knowing that's how he would behave, as he was smart enough NOT to tell me his attitude about male "ownership" of the family.

[–]outside-perceptionFDS Newbie18 points19 points20 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]rinabeanFDS Disciple7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, women are taught lies about men, it's really awful :( I hate what we're expected to put up with. I hate all those threads on reddit where women describe being wildly unhappy but then it's like "oh I'm overreacting, he's a good man really, how can I change to make things better?" - and that's what all the replies say, from men and women. We are not taught to look out for ourselves, and it's so much worse if you had a bad upbringing which so many of us did, and which men prey on. You did well to get out of it!

Military is bad for both cheating and for domestic abuse as far as I know. I think police is the only one worse for domestic abuse - something like 40% of them are? I can't find a lot of stats, but this article seems to say that in the US 15% of military wives report being abused, currently. That doesn't include the men who did abuse, but she got away, so the overall rate must be higher. I think the problem with both careers is that the men they attract are authoritarian and okay with violence. I can't remember if there's a page in the handbook about careers. There are other careers that are red flags for other reasons (I think doctors & cheating is another?) but I think these two are the most physically dangerous.

[–]tw231116FDS Newbie5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]iiterreyii14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kekekeke7777FDS Newbie24 points25 points26 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]rinabeanFDS Disciple8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

What I'm saying is that women say this, often, but also that I have never seen it. And women will say it about their relationships, but their own story says otherwise (so not like, that I know her and him and I had a bad feeling about him but she didn't... I don't know him, and she had a bad feeling about him!). I've already seen this about a dozen times right here on this subreddit.

I don't understand the line you're trying to draw between issues and abuse. I think it's what I'm saying - women notice problems, decide it's probably not going to escalate to abuse, and stay. And then sometimes it does escalate to abuse (and then you can start round 2 if you want, "he's probably not going to escalate to killing me/abusing the kids/etc."). There's no level of red flags that doesn't mean stop, danger. That's the whole meaning of a red flag.

The problem is that women are taught to be intensely forgiving of men. Seeing the signs and brushing them off because you're not allowed to have standards may have the same end result as not seeing the signs, and it may even feel like you didn't see signs (because you sat convincing yourself "it's not a bad sign, he's a good man, everything's fine - maybe I'm the problem!") but it's not actually the same.

I think this myth harms women because, in the best case, it makes women afraid and insecure, and you make worse decisions when you're insecure.

I think what it does to most women is make them lower their standards. What's the point in looking for a HVM when he'll do a 180 anyway? Find a man who's not 100% obviously bad news and leave it at that. That's very harmful, and what this sub fights!

In the worst case, women will believe that if men can "change" from good to bad, they'll change the other way, and stay in abusive relationships, waiting for him to change. You know, if men can do 180s. Especially combined with the idea that they change on marriage, or having a baby makes them change. How many women do you know who marry an abuser or have his baby hoping it will help? It happens so, so horribly often. I don't think that you are saying this, that men change from bad to good, but I think that combined with the messages about men in society more widely, this is the conclusion some women will draw.

So it seems to me like it's not even a helpful lie.

[–]Kekekeke7777FDS Newbie4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I guess I can agree with you that calling it a “change” can be harmful because he’s not really changing, just showing his true colors. But if you’re with someone for years and they were always protective of you, but then suddenly one night they endanger your life on purpose, it sure feels like a change.

I do think red flags can be arbitrary. Obviously anything less than 100% respect and support and kindness is a red flag. And I’m of the mindset to be more cautious so honestly even the most basic thing, even if it’s a one-off about the guy’s taste in movies, etc. I’ll call a red flag. But a red flag is a warning that might indicate something worse might happen down the line, like a point of no-return. But it might not. It’s not certain. But men have massive entitlement and power so what most of us would never do, they do because they have the chance and no consequences. So those red flags are really a predictor of abuse, like you said, instead of just a warning of what might happen. But if you don’t know that about all men from FDS or whatever, you usually learn from your experience which can be a zig-zagging journey.

I also think every woman’s definition of abuse is different. Not saying that’s good or right just that it is. And people tend to believe their definition is the right one. Incidentally, abusers also think this way too. In the Lundy book he mentions that for one man, slapping with an open palm is not abuse, but punching is. So since he never punched his wife, he’s not an abuser in his mind. And the next guy might think that choking is abuse but punching isn’t, and since he only punched his wife and not choked her, he’s not an abuser. But the first guy would call the second an abuser for sure. But maybe the first guy calls his wife the c word. The second guy, although he thinks punching isn’t abuse, believes name-calling is abuse, so he would call the first guy an abuser because he called his wife the c-word. Obviously, we’d call both men abusers.

But even though we all are similarly-minded here, we have our own beliefs about what constitutes abuse.

Growing up, I 100% believed I wasn’t abused (spoiler: I was). No one ever hit or struck me and I was actually told anything less than that isn’t abuse. So as long as no one hurt you physically you were fine. I actually thought I was supremely loved (spoiler: I wasn’t). Turns out my peers held the same beliefs that abuse is only physical. Once when I was home for a week and returned to school looking sad, my friends sat me down and asked if my parents were abusing me. I assumed they meant hitting, etc. so since of course that wasn’t happening, I said of course not! I was actually offended they could even think that. One girl even clarified, “no one, like, hits you, right?” Of course not! They were very satisfied with my (true) answer. No one hit me. They just belittled me, neglected my basic and medical needs and vaguely threatened me with physical violence. But they never hit me.

Whenever I saw Dateline crap, I couldn’t understand why women would stay with men who hurt them physically. “Hello, that’s abuse!”
So when my ex and I moved in and he pushed me one day, I was so angry and scared and in shock. But I didn’t immediately dump him. It was a gray area for me and I’d never experienced anyone doing that to me. It wasn’t some monster pushing me, and it didn’t even hurt. I wasn’t injured. It felt more ridiculous than anything. Almost like we were in acting poorly in a play. And it was a person I knew super well and who I had felt 100% physically safe with since day 1 before that and even after.

Looking back idk if I could say there were indicators that several years into the relationship he would suddenly push me. Was he more and more inconsiderate of my physical space the longer we were together? Sure. Manspreading, what have you.
But men are inconsiderate of my physical space all the time in subways, walking down the street, bumping into me in the grocery store, etc. So you’re looking at the whole person vs. this one incident and it leaves a ton of plausible deniability, especially if the person doing it and other people you trust are unfazed by the behavior. Sort of a frog in boiling water situation. That gaslighting is how I stayed with my own abuser even after the one pushing incident. I was hardly his biggest fan at the point. I actually hated him for his porn use and other LVM stuff. But the push ignited a kind of emotional freeze response in me. Then after like a year without a second incident, one day he didn’t let me leave the house. It was very surreal. I got minorly hurt in the process of him trying to take my keys out of my hand. So since that was a physical consequence and I’d been taught growing up that anything physical (and only physical) was abuse, I was done and I left him shortly thereafter. Turns out I was physical abuse only meant getting physically hurt, in my mind. At least, I think that’s why I left when I did as opposed to before the first physical incident or after a potentially worse one. Hard to say.

[–]rinabeanFDS Disciple3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think we had fairly similar backgrounds. My parents did actually hit me, and that's the bit that shocks everyone, but I don't think it was the worst part by a long way. And like you I looked and came across as obviously abused, but no-one ever did anything (not that I expected my friends to - but relatives, teachers and other adults knew, too). And at the same time, I was claiming I had great parents who loved me, even though deep inside part of me knew it was wrong. It's not the best start to life is it! And it makes dating men absolutely hazardous. This site has an interesting little study into the psychology of some abusive parents - might be pretty triggering if you've never read it before, it was for me the first time, but it's very illuminating. Like you mentioned it says in Why Does He Do That? that men who abuse women seem to think they're not really abusive, abusive parents seem to work the same way. The idea that they weren't abusive because their own parents were more abusive and that's the only real abuse is a constant refrain.

It's so engrained in us to excuse abuse as a society, and to excuse men as women. As you said, men are disrespecting women all the fucking time. So we have this line that men have to cross before we call it abuse, and it's often really extreme - unless our parents or someone else gave us higher standards. For you and me they didn't, and that makes us even more vulnerable than other women, and abusive men will exploit that if they can. In your story you mention so many signs (I am very glad you got out). I can see why you didn't react to them properly, it makes total sense that you would downplay it and make excuses for him, but there were signs, and that's why I think there always are.

Like you said, it's like the frog in boiling water. Or the tip of an iceberg. If you're very confident and have good boundaries and high standards, maybe the first sign you see really is the first sign, and when you leave then, it's perfect (the perfect outcome to a bad situation, anyway). But for many of us, used to abuse, what we perceive as the first sign is not even the first sign, and it's often actual abuse already. So it's even more vitally important that we react strongly to the very first sign that we see. I worry that the idea that there are sometimes no signs means women will think signs are more of an optional thing to look out for instead of the very most important way of protecting ourselves. I really think our intuition is our greatest ally, but we're taught to ignore it and reason our way into forgiving men. We're rarely taught to reason ourselves into leaving a man, either!

If a woman thinks there are no signs sometimes, it's going to be harder for her to work out what signs she missed from an abusive man - or how to spot a charming manipulator etc. if there was no obviously bad behaviour - so she's going to be vulnerable to the same tactics from another man. There are always signs, and the goal is to be the kind of women who see them early (and this sub is so great for teaching them) and the kind of women who react in their own best interests upon spotting them (this sub is also good for that). We can't control men, and some men will convincingly lie about their nature and their intentions. This goes for everything from trying to get in your knickers to trying to kill you. But the second they let it slip, we need to be ready, and it means being harsher on them and also more honest with ourselves about what we are seeing and what we are permitting (and luckily this sub is also good for that kind of self reflection and growing!). It's very hard in a culture that teaches us, explicitly and implicitly, that women are prone to overreaction, that women should give men second chances, and, ultimately, that women should accept abuse. It's all you see on the relationship advice subreddits, that the red flag is not a red flag and she's in no danger and you're just trying to ruin her relationship... absolutely constant! But it's not true, it's the opposite.

[–]Kekekeke7777FDS Newbie3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for sharing that. What you said about the psychology of abusive parents was illuminating. No wonder they rarely have remorse. I wish it was more acceptable to criticize our parents treatment of us. The strong culture of “all parents want what’s best for their kids” keeps lots of us in unsafe situations as kids and then silent as adults.

My ex’s porn use was also hidden until we moved in together too. So that was another “red flag” that never really was.

I have several friends and acquaintances who had better than average parents who have been in the same situation I have with abusive men. I was both shocked and relieved to read in the Lundy book that women with our upbringings aren’t actually any more likely to be abused by male partners. We are more likely to stay slightly longer. But not significantly. Just like what you said about reddit etc. lying to us about these situations, popular culture tells us women with bad childhoods will date abusive men but women with healthy parents down. Crazy to know it’s a lie! What a relief to know another thing that’s not our fault.

[–]Ms_TillyRuthless Strategist28 points29 points30 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]outside-perceptionFDS Newbie16 points17 points18 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ms_TillyRuthless Strategist17 points18 points19 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This one was gone a lot on missions. A couple weeks here and there. I had to get nasty with him to get him to take me to the hospital for what I suspected was early labor. He didn't want to be bothered on his day off 🤡And it WAS early labor. Spent the next two months in and out of a hospital in EUROPE. It was a lonely, lonely time. He didn't deploy until our kid was several months old and I could not WAIT for him to leave. It was a weird feeling of being sad but being relieved. I was so happy without him around. No more being pestered for sex or getting him off. No more mothering a grown man while trying to raise a baby. Eleven months later he came back and his jealousy about the baby (and the pushing for sex) started back up, so I ended it. He had many pity parties before asking ME to leave. I was trying to stay until he got out so he could be with his kid. I even worked two jobs at our next duty station to make it work. Nah, he would rather we both leave 🤡 We coparent well but it's obvious he still has a huge chip on his shoulder and acts like I'm a nuisance, so I have learned to only contact him if it's absolutely necessary. He barely remembers to appreciate how nice I am, how I never keep his kid from him, and how I didn't go to the courts to get child support. We just split everything evenly. Our kid is getting close to being a preteen now. Every year gets easier. I love my kid, but I could've saved myself a ton of misery by just using a sperm bank or being child free.

[–]outside-perceptionFDS Newbie8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Awful, I'm so sorry...sigh. At first when he started getting "weird" I thought maybe it was adjusting but then it progressed and I left 9mos after the first incident at the first opportunity I could find. Being in Europe if you aren't European can be incredibly tough. Were you in Germany if you don't mind my asking? Funny about the job...I got a state job to make things easier but it didn't. He started getting really hot and cold and a few people asked if he was bipolar but I wouldn't touch on something like that since I'm not a medical professional.

Yes being child free would be much easier in these situations. The fact that you're being civil (I'm using the same route) and never withholding him from anything shows that you wanted to cut your losses and move on. Your ex sounds ridiculous...is he at least good to the child you both have together? Hopefully he smartens up and is at least a decent human being to your child. It's so alarming that you had to hassle him about your early labour, anyone with some decency would be rushing to the hospital.

[–]Ms_TillyRuthless Strategist5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 6 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Very true. My husband was a wonderful man, and by all accounts we had a perfect relationship. Then we got married and he just flipped. Started hiding things from me and let our marriage go down the toilet all while telling me everything was fine and the issues I had were just in my head. So many people hide how screwed up they are so well until certain situations trigger them.

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