"Men's Rights Issues are part of Patriarchy, and feminism fights patriarchy." How do we once and for all reject this argument?

RaxL · 2014-10-02T04:39:35+00:00

Easy. Make them prove their "patriarchy" exists in the first place.

Sendmeloveletters · 2014-10-02T06:11:12+00:00

[permanently deleted]

YetAnotherCommenter · 2014-10-02T09:13:01+00:00

Men's Rights issues clearly come from gender roles, but are these gender roles a "patriarchy?"

A "patriarchy" is typically defined (by Third Wave Feminists and Cultural Feminists) as a society which values the masculine above the feminine. It sees masculine traits as better than feminine traits. Does our society really do this?

Are men who fail to live up to their gender role condemned for acting feminine? Well, how are women treated when they act feminine? Society praises them. Society loves, encourages and values femininity in women.

Not only that, but if men were valued more than women, men would not be disposable and expected to preserve women's lives at the expense of their own.

Men are not seen as more valuable than women, they're seen as more competent than women. These are two separate concepts - women are seen as more valuable, and men are seen as more competent. Ergo, the more competent sex is expected to preserve the lives of the more valuable sex.

Women are seen as more valuable because, basically, they are the incubators of the future. Men don't have this. Ergo, women's value (to society) is based on an anatomical function rather than their actions.

A man who does not act in a masculine way has no value to society - their anatomy cannot incubate the future, and their actions are not displaying competence or agency. Ergo, he is socially nothing. He is a social neuter rather than a social woman. After all, do effeminate/gender-nonconforming men get free drinks at bars? Do they get doors opened for them? Is their a social prohibition against beating them up? No, and with respect to the beatings effeminate/gender-nonconforming men are often targets of them (see school bullying amongst boys, gay-bashings and other related phenomena).

Thus, the idea that men's issues stem from society valuing the masculine more than the feminine (i.e. patriarchy) is false. They do stem from gender norms, but these norms do not value the masculine above the feminine. Rather, they see women as more innately precious and men as more potentially useful. Men are seen as innately disposable subjects, women as innately cherishable objects.

2014-10-02T05:39:48+00:00

In so far as I can tell they have literally failed to do anything about these matters. They also define patriarchy as "everything I don't like." Making it a meaningless phrase.

Its effectively saying "We don't need men commenting on mens issues because we, as women already have it covered under the blanket term 'patriarchy.'" Which means men running things through religion or birth-right btw's.

Does the below make any sense?

Well we don't need feminism because the MRA is already working on that issue. We hate the obliarchy.

Also this phrase:

Excerpt from If I Admit That Hating Men is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning it Into a Self-fulfilling Prophecy?, by Lindy West

What a joke? Its a self fulfilling prophecy because feminists hate men not because men as a group do something to deserve to be hated. But this is trying to literally push the blame of hate from feminists to men. Seriously are they that dense? (Assuming she-her-self doesn't hate men.) Its legitimizing hate: "Well men actually do deserve to be hated, and if they stopped then we could at least admit that hating them is a real thing."

If someone said this in real life, man or woman, I would punch them in the face. Punching them would be completely deserved (I.E. "If black people would stop being so black, then guess what? We could admit that hating black people is a thing." Yeah they deserved to be punched and so does the author of that phrase.)

leftajar · 2014-10-02T06:52:04+00:00

I like Stephan Molyneux's take on it:

It's foolish to define any movement by its extremists. However, we can judge a movement by how it responds to its extremists. And on this one, feminism has been strangely silent.

redpillbanana · 2014-10-02T06:55:46+00:00

The reason the MRM exists is precisely because the feminist movement has done such a bad job addressing Men's Rights issues. So, with regards to MRM issues and issues of egalitarianism, they are fired. They can stick to fighting for more rights for women, where they seem to be doing a great job.

Stefan Molyneux had a good example in one of his recent videos. He said that when women were underrepresented in universities, feminists fought long and hard to fix that. Now that men are underrepresented at the university level, feminists (including President Obama) are seeing that as a victory rather than a massive problem, and they're doing nothing to help fix this issue.

iethatis · 2014-10-02T11:34:01+00:00

Ignore it.

Don't debate with feminists unless they are bringing a new audience to the table (to witness said debate), there's really no point otherwise, they're too far gone.

The best counter to the argument, if you must, is questioning the effectiveness of their "work" towards a solution, and propose a better alternative. Getting bogged down in the details regarding "feminist theory" is a losing proposition, mainly because you will be overwhelmed with a deluge of nonsense, and it will change nobody's mind.

In practice the only way to change someone's religious beliefs is indirectly, and over a long period of time.

Black_caped_man · 2014-10-02T05:40:55+00:00

Ask for a definition of patriarchy, make some popcorn, sit back and enjoy the show.

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2014-10-02T12:29:52+00:00

Rejecting the argument is easy. Agree with it, then ask how it works.

How does demonizing male sexuality make it easier for males to work with children? How does asserting that males are privileged get more assistance to homeless that are overwhelmingly male? NOW has opposed alimony reform, how will not changing things correct the historical assumption that women are to prioritize child care? NOW opposes the assumption of shared parenting, how will keeping the primary burden of child care on women allow men to share equally in that responsibility?

For every point, don't disagree, just ask how it's going to work given the advocacy that exists. Simply put the feminist activism to exclude men from parenting is in direct conflict with the claims of equality. Make them explain how sexism against men results in equality.

Gawrsh · 2014-10-02T15:26:19+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Kuato2012 · 2014-10-02T15:29:54+00:00

It's all just lip service. The entire reason that the MRM exists is because feminism has remained curiously silent or inactive with respect to championing men's rights on every one of those points listed. That is, when we aren't being actively demonized.

You can't tell me to shut the fuck up, that my views are invalid, and my concerns are marginal, and then turn around and say we're fighting for the same cause.

Lastly, if the author thinks that the purpose or motivation off the MRM is to hate on women, then she's pretty ignorant of it. She's either conflating the errors of modern feminism with"women," or she's projecting.

2014-10-02T15:33:35+00:00

Tell them to give you real examples of how feminism has implemented and effectively changed anything for men in regards to the patriarchal disadvantages they are addressing. Have a list of examples from major feminist organizations and how they have specifically stonewalled reform in those areas. The cognitive dissonance will be strong when you have the conversation, but if they are a skeptic or a decent person it will plant a seed and get them thinking. In time they will agree and not take it so personally. Don't expect anyone to change their opinion in one conversation. NOW is a great organization to research when it comes to a mainstream supported feminist group that goes back decades blocking reform and improvement for men's rights.

This would be a way to dodge the whole patriarchy concept, and just explain how it doesn't matter what you call the system - feminism isn't fixing it, they are causing it.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2014-10-02T15:34:25+00:00

Funny, many of the issues claimed to be due to patriarchy were also in matriarchal societies like the Iroquois.

So patriarchy certainly isn't a necessary condition, which means getting rid of patriarchy won't necessarily fix those issues.

sundown372 · 2014-10-02T15:52:36+00:00

in the early 19th century when children automatically went to their father's cutsody in divorce, that was real patriarchy. Then feminists got it changed to women being the ones who are awarded custody too, but apparently that's patriarchy now too.

There are feminist lobbyists whispering into the ears of every liberal politician in the west. Feminism IS the patriarchy.

lordslag · 2014-10-02T16:13:41+00:00

If they will not agree that all the following exist and need immediate rectification then they're willfully denying reality(it's copypasta so forgive things that don't seem in context):

The Paper Abortion for Men. Is it okay to force a woman to be a parent because a pregnancy occurs? No. Therefore the same for men.

Equal Parenting Laws. 50% automatically assumed custody is self evidently equal.

Eliminating, or forcing women to sign up for, the draft.

Gender Equal Sentencing Laws

Gender Equal Funding Laws

Gender Equal Physical Requirements Laws

Elimination of VAWA for it's violation of men's 14th Amendment Rights. Most victims of intimate partner violence ARE MEN!! http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/

Elimination of the pay gap myth. Take into account all factors rather than just all full time men's and women's wages, which is laughably simplistic, and the gap disappears.

Gender Equal Divorce Laws and Enforcement

Anonymity for the Accused Laws If the rape accuser is anonymous, so is the accused.

Men's Studies courses in all Universities, or the Elimination of Women's Studies

Men's Domestic Violence and Abuse Shelters

Right to Genital Integrity for Male Babies. If they were chopping off 20% of the nerve endings in every vulva, there would be an uproar. Babies can't consent to permanent sexual alteration, regardless if it helps prevent infections or not.

Stop medicating boys in schools. Boys aren't defective, the system is.

Stop painting all men as potential rapists/child molesters. "Teach men not to rape." Like all men are rapists and must be taught otherwise. How about "Teach women not to be golddiggers." See how both contain sexist premises? And, to top it all off, almost 50% of all rape allegations are false! http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf The study is sound because you can't say that those strong, independent women who don't need no man would just shrink away from a polygraph or it's refusal. You don't get to blame that weakness on anyone but those women. Further, you can't complain about the study using the actual police data because that's objectively stupid on it's face. There are no valid criticisms of this study, it is solid and undeniable.

guywithaccount · 2014-10-02T17:05:14+00:00

Patriarchy doesn't exist and assuming it does is begging the question.

Make them define it ("I don't care what so-and-so says, I want to know what YOU think it is"), pin them to that definition, and then demonstrate that the existence of Patriarchy is inconsistent with fact.

Alternately, don't bother. Debating feminists is a waste of time.

goodfoobar · 2014-10-02T17:09:25+00:00

My general understanding of patriarchy is the theory that a small group of men are in power and the only power women have is sex and the power to complain. Show these feminists that a small group of powerful feminists does exist and that the average man and woman is being harmed by this group in the same way that patriarchy is supposedly harmful.

2014-10-02T17:44:05+00:00

A feminist saying men's issues are due to patriarchy is like a white nationalist saying black issues are due to "African values," which in their mind only means something bad.

2014-10-02T18:17:11+00:00

Feminists do not want you to lose custody of your children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy.

Right. Patriarchy, right. Definitely not this. The feminists of the nineteenth century would be rolling in their graves if they knew their successors were writing off their victories.

These people can't even keep their own history straight. Any feminist who says that women being the primary caretakers of children is a "patriarchal" notion automatically gets put on ignore.

mean0dean0 · 2014-10-02T18:51:06+00:00

The second half is false--feminism in fact REQUIRES patriarchy. Alain Soral notes that behind every bourgeois feminist is a subjugated working-class woman who has to support her lifestyle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do5zrdTb-yI

Part of what we are doing as a movement is creating a way of understanding men's issues OUTSIDE of the simplistic and contradictory construction of "patriarchalism"--an undefined bogeyman with roots in Freudian and Lacanian psychoanalysis and bearing little or no relation to modern-day western society. Even supposedly "patriarchal" cultures are operating under mutually oppressive models where gender roles are difficult and dangerous for BOTH genders. For every woman caned for uncovering her head in Afghanistan, a young boy is callously traded as a sex slave called a "bacha bazi" (dancing boy) because women are not allowed to sell themselves as prostitutes. They're considered above the sexual degradation that is deemed perfectly acceptable for underage boys.

The goal of the MRM is to show that oppression should be fought on its own turf, not by exporting oppression from one place by fighting it in another. Feminists have essentially fooled us into the gender-warfare version of the Iraq War, telling us that women are the primary victims of violence when anybody with an internet connection and half a brain could see that men are actually the primary victims of all forms of violence, including sexual violence when prison rape is taken into account. But you won't hear any of that from feminists; they are more interested in selling us on fake WMDs than really solving the problem of violence.

BlueDoorFour · 2014-10-02T20:02:38+00:00

Too often on this sub, and in the MRM in general, patriarchy theory is strawmanned as a kind of conspiracy theory -- A cabal of rich white men smoking cigars and twirling their moustaches while plotting new ways to oppress women.

Historically, gender roles existed to allow the survival of the species. With technological development, those roles became obsolete, and now we are experiencing their lingering effects. The term "Patriarchy," as I believe most feminists understand it, simply refers to these gender roles. In the feminist understanding, though, these roles act to benefit men and oppress women, or are at least worse for women than for men.

This list has been passed around for years now, and represents the same "trickle-down" attitude about correcting gender issues -- All of men's issues stem from women's issues, so solve women's issues to solve men's. That the primary issue men face is an inability to express emotions, and that we deal with "gender stereotypes" while women deal with gendered violence. We see the same attitude in Emma Watson's speech.

I object to it simply because it prioritizes one gender, and ignores the reality. The MRM serves a vital function in allowing men to speak of the issues that affect them, and show that it's much more than "not being allowed to cry." Gender issues are complicated, and trickle-down solutions won't solve anything. If anything, they'll make things worse.

BlackMRA-edtastic · 2014-10-02T20:53:15+00:00

Feminism exploits the hell out of the patriarchy and that's how you kill this argument. You needn't abandon patriarchy as a concept but rather implicate it's role in reinforcing the very benevolent sexism feminist have long benefited from which they reinforce rather than fight.

2014-10-03T00:07:57+00:00

By collectively embarrassing and shaming them by stating they are insane or evil liars.

TrueRamo · 2014-10-03T06:35:01+00:00

It's the same as fighting any other religion. The willfully ignorant shall remain. The ones with open minds will free themselves.

avantvernacular · 2014-10-03T12:03:45+00:00

Then why don't you fight the parts of the patriarchy the benefit women with the same fervor of those that don't?

seego79 · 2014-10-03T13:30:17+00:00

simple, the feminist idea of patriarchy doe snot exist and its argueable that it never existed.

just see typhon blues arguemen against it.

McGauth925 · 2014-11-02T22:07:45+00:00

Feminism fights patriarchy, largely focusing on women's issues.

We need MRAs to fight the sexism that harms men, whether or not it's caused by the patriarchy. Women just aren't much interested.

iongantas · 2014-10-02T09:00:33+00:00

I kinda stopped reading after noticing that each of several paragraphs started with a lie.

MordorsFinest · 2014-10-02T09:20:05+00:00

Don't engage, you'll have about as much success as you would with inviting Heinrich Himmler to a Passover Seder

TemporaryDolphin · 2014-10-02T10:01:08+00:00

At this point, I feel that this 'argument' is pure trollery -- that feminists say it almost entirely to piss us off, because they hate us a lot more than they could ever care about equality.

DougDante · 2014-10-02T10:31:00+00:00

We ignore them and do what's right.

Roulette88888 · 2014-10-02T13:49:48+00:00

"Men's Rights Issues are part of Patriarchy, and feminism fights patriarchy." How do we once and for all reject this argument?

To quote the late great Christopher Hitchens, you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

joe_bruised_ego · 2014-10-02T13:50:26+00:00

When feminists denounce or stand in opposition to men's issues, is it then part of patriarchy?

ExpendableOne · 2014-10-02T13:54:33+00:00

First problem is that patriarchy doesn't actually exist. What we have are gender roles, which benefit women more than men in countless ways. You can't just define power by the politicians who make policies(who got there at the behest of women's votes, who serve women's interests as an extension of culture and public accountability), nor could you call women a minority when they are a majority. You also can't say that women have no power when they have approximately 80% of the spending power and are the majority in higher education(to say the least).

Secondly, generally speaking, women want men in the positions of responsibility and accountability, because it means less stress, work and risks for them personally while maintaining the same benefits/freedoms. With all the women who could be taking charge and leading by example, taking risks and being great leaders, very few actually choose to do so. They get to benefit from the freedoms of modern life, without having to take on the stress of leadership. They get to be lovers and stay at home mothers, without any real burdens to deal with. When things go wrong, they get to blame men for making the wrong decisions. It's the best of both worlds.

Thirdly, feminists will blatantly ignore the fact that this system is predominantly enforced by women. Men work, compete and strive for women. Women reward and encourage these behaviours from men. It's how our culture works(and has worked for a very long time). Feminism's failure here stems from their complete inability to address the female majority who are predisposed towards this mentality and in that they will actively defend such women, and their complicity/agency in perpetuating and enforcing these gender roles(as well as other assertive, abrasive and abusive behaviours from men), because feminism seeks to defend the rights, privileges and entitlements of women first and foremost(which is not only anti-egalitarian but would actively be encouraging the patriarchy system that they claim to fight against).

Finally, what feminists define as men's rights issues is far from an accurate portrayal of the issues that men face today. The fact that they could even define them as "being part of the patriarchy" demonstrates just how far out of touch they are with these issues. More importantly, it shows just how far out of touch they are with feminism, which has still been actively ignoring or reinforcing these issues(or attacking the men's rights activists who seek to address them). If "men's rights issues are the result of patriarchy" then opposing the men's rights movement would be actively defending this "patriarchy".

PerfectHair · 2014-10-02T14:17:54+00:00

Well I would just ask them how they would feel about men running feminism and in charge of feminist issues. If they say they wouldn't like it, well, that's why we have the MRM.

blueoak9 · 2014-10-02T13:12:47+00:00

This looks like Lindy West's puerile attempt at a sly inversion that posted on Jezebel or wherever that was. Feminism is doing nothing on any of these issues and is simply playing dig in the manger. Feminists pose as the experts on gender issues, they want to control the gender debate, so they appropriate these issues and say they belong to them. It's a pathetically childish line of bullshit.

In fact it is feminism that is patriarchal, with all its appeals to chivalry - HeforShe, "Only men can stop rape" - and its reliance on and policing of "patriarchal" roles, mostly based on the hyperagency-hypoagency model - men as predators, women as fragile damsels and perpetual victims.

Feminism is steeped in the "patriarchy" it claims ot oppose.

vasher02 · 2014-10-02T04:38:38+00:00

I would, myself, reject it on the basis that (1) feminism hasn't done any progress in these matters and (2) the concept of patriarchy existing in the modern western world does not allow for any progress in Men's Rights as they are inherently seen as contrary to Women's Rights. What's more, "eradicating patriarchy" is so completely vague and broad that it just seems an innefective goal to me.

2014-10-02T07:57:29+00:00

Did anyone else notice this is almost verbatim the list Big Red (Chanty Binx) was reading from?

rogerwatersbitch · 2014-10-02T13:40:23+00:00

Well, the MRM also fights the supposed patriarchy too (or as we call it, strict gender roles)

I always said, wouldnt it be better to have two groups attempt to chop down a large tree from 2 different sides, than one group to do so on only one side? Wouldnt it be, you know, faster?

And really, dont men deserve to have their issues tackled directly? Why do we have to wait around to see if men really do end up benefiting from feminism, when that hasnt been the case for the past 40 years. The male gender roles is as strict as it ever was (well, maybe its a smidgen more flexible, but thats it) and men are as disposable as they were 50 years ago.

Its really not a hard argument to dismantle.

TheRealMouseRat · 2014-10-02T14:05:11+00:00

From how feminists often describe "patriarchy" it seems most likely that it is something that women have created. The only thing linking it to men is the name, hence it should rather be called the matriarchy. And btw, they don't fight the patriarchy (or whatever you choose to call it).

NUMBERS2357 · 2014-10-02T14:30:41+00:00

Feminism fights against many men's rights issues. That either means that those issues are not part of the "patriarchy", or that feminism doesn't fight the "patriarchy". There are plenty of examples where feminism supports the inequities facing men.

unklestinky · 2014-10-02T14:48:44+00:00

I think its reasonable to assert that feminists cannot speak to men's issues any more than MRA's can speak to women's issues. So trying to use feminist theory as a framework to work on men's issues is never going to accomplish anything. It is only going to lead to a never ending circle-jerk of non-action.

Title	"Men's Rights Issues are part of Patriarchy, and feminism fights patriarchy." How do we once and for all reject this argument?
Author	vasher02
Upvotes	57
Comments	63
Date	October 2, 2014 4:33 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2i2aer/mens_rights_issues_are_part_of_patriarchy_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mens-rights-issues-are-part-of-patriarchy-and.995111 https://theredarchive.com/post/995111

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