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Syndocloud
[–]Dowsing-rods 112 points113 points114 points 2 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Incels are any man online complaining about anything, got it.
[–]Deadlocked02 67 points68 points69 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I saw someone being accused of inceldom for posting a motivational message for men the other day. On a motivational sub.
[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think I commented on the same post.
[–]peanutbutterjams 78 points79 points80 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I've been called an incel so many times just because I criticized feminism.
I'm married with kids.
Great, now incel just means "A person speaking civilly about a non-hateful perspective that makes me uncomfortable."
I swear Wokeism is 90% bullying.
[–]The-Author 18 points19 points20 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Incel has become yet another thing that used to actually have a specific meaning that has been taken by the left and used as an attack on anyone that has opinions that they don't like. The same thing happened with sexism, misogyny, homophobia, hate speech, etc.
I swear Wokeism is 90% bullying
You're not wrong there. A few years ago I wouldn't have agreed with you but honestly part of the reason why I have stepped away from the modern left is because of how intolerant they are of different ideas and opinions so you can't have a discussion outside of a very narrow range of ideas. Not to mention how they feel entitled to their allies and demand so much from them, but don't even give basic decency/ respect in return. It's honestly quite cult like and abusive.
[–]throwra_coolname209 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Not to mention how they feel entitled to their allies and demand so much from them, but don't even give basic decency/ respect in return. It's honestly quite cult like and abusive.
This alone has caused a lot of rifts in my feminist friendships.
First off, I always love the assumption that I'm a straight hetero religious cis white male. Happens every damn time, and I'll be hit with the "you wouldn't understand any of these things we're talking about". There's no thought that I might be bi and not make it my whole identity, or that I've questioned if I'm trans before, or if I disagree with most social gendered roles. Nah, I'm a book judged by its cover and I fucking love telling people that I understand their discourse to a pretty good degree.
But yeah, feminism demands allyship from men and by and large isn't willing to give men what they need to do that successfully. Which is hilarious to me because they seem to understand the problem, but even if you go along with their definitions of how the world works (which I don't always disagree with), the common attitude just doesn't line up with solving the problems they identify.
Like, if we live in a patriarchy designed for the relative benefit of men over women, and you want men to start treating women better, certainly the times when men treat women better should be treated respectfully at a minimum? So many people I've met say that we shouldn't give encouragement to men for treating women fairly because it's "basic human decency and that doesn't deserve good boy points" which sounds good on the surface. Until you realize that a system to benefit men would also punish them for benefiting women, so in a scenario where you can be a good guy and shamed for it or a bad guy and reap no social consequences... What do they think men will choose?? Maybe I'm just cynical but by now surely it's pretty agreed on that people tend to act in their own best interests and need incentive to do anything outside of that. It's true in politics, board games, careers, everything.
[–]The-Author 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm honestly not why on Earth social justice activists/ leftists are so against using positive reinforcement. Literally every culture/ society on earth (apart from the ones that are oppressive/ abusive) use positive reinforcement of some kind, in balance with negative reinforcement, to help maintain social norms and good behavior.
[–]ShoutoutsToSimple 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yep. The same people who constantly bitch and moan about toxic masculinity...are the same people who treat men like shit if they are anything but the most stoic man ever. If you have a criticism of a movie, you're a toxic fanboy. If you have a single bad thing to say about a female politician, you're a raging misogynist. If you are ever upset by anything ever, you're toxic. If you are depressed because you are lonely, you're an entitled incel who thinks women owe him sex. And so on.
These people do a great job of teaching men even further that they should bottle up all their feelings and thoughts on things, never letting anyone know how they truly feel. And then they turn right around and complain about toxic masculinity. It's despicable.
[–]Normal_Guy456 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Idk I wouldn't exactly call a 13 year old a man. Like while the tone is hostile and/or toxic they do have a point. 13 years olds shouldn't be so focused on relationships and dating. They're still a kid at that point, they have plenty of other things to focus on or do and it is good for someone to build their dating confidence irl rather than relying on anonymous internet forums and complaining how they're gonna be virgins forever after turning 14 and getting no pussy yet
[–]International_Crew89 -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Why exactly do you think 13 year olds should be focused on anything but sex and relationships? I'm not saying those should be the only things but....don't you think part of how we got to this problematic situation between men and women might be, in part, the prolonged infantilization of teeneagers despite the obvious nature of hormones, and the fact that for most of human history the average person was considered an adult at around 12 or 13?
[–]Normal_Guy456 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah we don't live in those backwards ass times where 12 year old children are considered adults, so that's irrelevant.
12 and 13 year old kids don't need to be focused on sex and relationships beciazse they're literal children and should be focused on building themselves into who they want to be, they need to focus on school and any extracurricular activities, and many kids that age are not even physically ready to have sex yet. It's not infantalizing to say a 12 year old is a child because they are literally children not yet even done with puberty. Kids shouldn't be be focused on sex and dating especially when it creates 13 year olds who believe they will be virgins forever because they haven't had sex by the age of 13 yet.
This all isn't even mentioning how a 13 year old isn't ready to responsibly have sex and I assume we both agree that a 13 year old getting pregnant is a terrible terrible thing
[–]Syndocloud[S] 110 points111 points112 points 2 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link
My point here is that again and again again misandrists attack men with toxicly masculine assaults and belittle them for having the audacity of not performing male gender roles but somehow with mental gymnastics make it woke.
To the misandrist they aren't being sexist it just so happens that men more are lazy and entitled than women and have to be told to man up and fix it themselves more often.
It's interesting that all of morality shifts when the discussion is male mental health. It's essentially" Stop having the audacity and the arrogance of thinking women will break social norm and ask you out. you (a man) aren't worth that, stop being a pussy and just go talk to girls what to you mean you have mental illness that's just an excuse and if t's not just man up and take yourself to therapy bro it's so easy.
But it's framed in as if it's a universally negative trait to be this way when said. However if you know girls bout their girls experience of this kind of thing you'll know that it's completely inexistent as a concept for women and even if it did exist women are generally assumed to be worth more or have make up anyways so it doesn't really stick
The worst part is these are young kids getting this advice and the cycle goes around again.
[+]Too_Old_1981 -27 points-26 points-25 points 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Are you telling me women don't experience depression or mental illness? Am I reading you wrong here?
[–]Syndocloud[S] 76 points77 points78 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
That's my point they do but people are willing to accept or assume that off the bat.
If a woman's crying about to something it's like an alarm that something is unfair or going wrong for her and people immediately jump to the most compassionate explanation possible.
But if a man is upset about something it's a pity party or woe is me
[–]Too_Old_1981 33 points34 points35 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ok, I got you. Unfortunately, since misandrists hate you they will use accusations of toxic masculinity or reproach you as not fulfilling male roles depending on the situation to cause you the most harm.
[–]Too_Old_1981 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Out of curiosity, how were the comments? A tire fire I imagine...
[–]peanutbutterjams 16 points17 points18 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Or he's "dangerous". In the minds of these people, there's no such thing as controlled anger. If you show the merest hing of anger, and you're a man, you automatically become "dangerous".
At least in a female-dominated office. When I worked with mostly guys at a blue collar job, men were allowed to be angry.
[–]Too_Old_1981 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why I am grateful to be in male dominated industry and a male dominated workplace,!
[–]ShoutoutsToSimple 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Agreed. The trope of women's tears being powerful is nothing new. But I like to bring up instances of things like this in media that I've recently watched. And I'm re-watching Scrubs, and there's a relevant moment.
For anyone who has ever seen Scrubs, I probably don't need to go into great detail as to why I despise Kim. And for anyone who hasn't, spoilers will follow as I summarize the relevant events.
So JD and Kim accidentally become pregnant, and despite still being a couple, she gets a job and moves far away. When JD makes a huge effort to get to her to be present at her first ultrasound, she lies to him and tells him she miscarried, when she has not. JD finds this out some time later, and is rightfully pissed. But the show only permits him to be pissed for precisely half of a single episode before chastising him for the sin of continuing to be pissed at a woman, despite what she had done to deserve it. At this point in the show, JD's friends are backing him up by also being pissed at Kim. Carla especially is very pissed at Kim, with no hint of forgiveness. But then when Carla, Elliot, and Kim are together, Kim starts to cry, and says it's because of what JD says. Without skipping a beat, Carla gets an angry look on her face and says, "What did JD say", pissed at him already.
It's fucking absurd. Despite the absurdly horrible thing Kim had done to JD, all it takes is her crying for Carla to pull a complete 180 from "this bitch tried to steal my friend's son by lying to his face about a miscarriage" to "oh my god, my friend is an asshole, because this woman is crying and claims that it's due to something my friend said."
That whole arc has always bothered me, because the show seems to treat JD like he's in the wrong almost the entire time, despite Kim abusing him over and over again with her privilege as the mother of the child. But this moment especially applies here. When a woman cries, everyone will drop everything to side with her. It's just ridiculous.
[–]literally_adog 22 points23 points24 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
He’s not saying the mental illness is nonexistent, he’s saying that when women express feelings of mental illness, it’s usually responded to with support, as opposed to “quit complaining”
[–]Talik1978 20 points21 points22 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I believe they reference the empathy gap. When women talk of depression or mental illness, people believe it. When men or boys do, they're doing it for attention, to try to find an online girlfriend, or any other excuse that allows the person seeing it to dismiss that man or boy as being unworthy of being taken seriously.
[–]Udesiir 37 points38 points39 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
and it's only directed at boys. its quite discriminatory
[–]Comfortable_Ad_9154 34 points35 points36 points 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
recently their was a thread that is relevant on menslib, it was about sex doll ownership, the comments were disappointing
I'm a woman. I watched this and I got so sad because I am pretty sure very very few men are this sweet, gentle, considerate, and loving to a woman. Is this an indication that to some degree or another, men want women who are pliable, don't speak their opinion and have no autonomy of their own. I mean I feel a bit sorry for this guy, but more, I feel frustrated that this is his ideal woman. He's still holding out a bit for a real woman, but he's pretty sure it wouldn't work. Also, is there a market for fake men for women? I really don't know and am curious if this is so.
they further went on
Look, in the end we decide what sort of life we want. Men and women. There are also women with unfortunate qualities, and they are even less likely to find a partner as men are more driven by physical attractiveness. If you want to withdraw from society and be unhappy and blame the world, that's fine, it's up to you. If you want to try and build a life full of friends and perhaps a spouse, you can do that too. It's a matter of perspective. It's not blaming at all, it 2 different ways of being. That guy doesn't HAVE to turn away from society and toward silicon. He chooses to. I'm not even really judging harshly, I'm just saying it's a choice. That said, mental illness changes that.
this is a common mindset, that I generally find particularly grievous in progressive spaces. Im not going to get into the generalizations about men, that I guess arent against menslibs rules.
[–]bottleblank 41 points42 points43 points 2 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
I read that thread (and posted one comment in it), I was also a bit disappointed in the direction of the discussion.
It doesn't seem to occur to some people that men don't wake up one day and casually decide "I'm going to have a sex doll as a partner" like it's some sort of preference or aspiration, they do it because there is nothing else. All other avenues seem closed. You can't just decide somebody is going to be your partner, a relationship relies on two people being in it together, and if nobody allows you that kind of connection, what else do you have? You can have a) your hand, b) a Fleshlight, c) a body pillow, d) a sex doll, or e) a prostitute. Take your pick. None of them are there to provide genuine emotional feedback, but at least it might give you a feeling of touch for a while. Yet even after a man experiences rejection, exclusion, misery, deep and painful lack of touch, of trust, of companionship, none of these options are "allowed" in the eyes of society. The man must be a deviant, a creep, a weirdo, a rapist-in-training, for wanting the closest thing he can get to a relationship without needing other people to give him a chance.
Maybe a man feels he's unable to have a relationship because of past trauma, maybe because of bad experiences in previous relationships, maybe because of disability, maybe because of depression, maybe because of abysmally low self-confidence (often related to the previous reasons), and no doubt more than I can think of to list here. Maybe he feels like a burden to any woman he tries to ask out, maybe he's tired of trying to be something he isn't, maybe he's tired of looking for something which seems increasingly unlikely to exist. Maybe combinations of all of the above. They're all perfectly relevant and important reasons why a man might not have a relationship with a human. Some of them can be treated, but that often requires a lot of trust and a lot of time and personal effort. How long will that take? How much will it hurt? How much emotional fortitude does that man need to endure this process, and what will he be "allowed" at the end of it?
Yes, there might be some very small amount of men who prefer a sex doll because of some specific kink, or power fantasy, or inability to tolerate being around real women because they don't allow enough freedom, but the very idea that a man might need to resort to buying a sex doll because their life is so emotionally void because of factors beyond their control seems impossibly alien to people. Like it must be some other reason (undoubtedly the man's own fault), like they can't stand women having personalities or being able to make decisions, or they weren't trying hard enough to find a date, or they're being picky, or they hate women.
I'd like to reiterate, as it's relevant to this thread, that sometimes we're just "not good enough", or we feel that way to such an extent that it seems irrefutably true, and as a result the very thought of actually being part of a loving relationship feels like a child telling everybody that one day they're going to be an astronaut and go to Jupiter because it's their favourite planet. It seems like pure fantasy, impossible to occur in the real world.
Telling a man with those kinds of issues to do what the OP's (in this thread) image says is something which can contribute to the subject of the video in that other thread, if the man you're telling to "just talk to a woman" has lost all feeling of agency, confidence, self-worth, or belief that relationships can work for everybody involved (not just the woman).
[–]Comfortable_Ad_9154 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That was very well written/articulate,
It can be damaging to have those experiences and, having been given advice like "just go talk to them" and "be yourself" (which on the face of it seem like "good" advice), trying to act on that advice has the potential to really screw you up when it all goes horribly wrong
agreed, giving the advice just "be yourself" invariably leads to the belief that something is wrong with you if you fail.
I think your analogy to being an astronaut is very accurate. Being an astronaut requires a skillset that, because of competition has to be highly developed. The same is true with social interaction, the main difference is how much those physical attributes/intellectual abilities have to be developed.
I truly believe that its important to acknowledge the difficulties someone is having and realize that sometimes some people just dont have certain tools available to them. I personally try to focus on my strengths, but it is very tough and I regularly get despondent about my weaknesses, especially since they have such a negative impact on my life.
[–]bottleblank 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thanks. I'm no master writer, and certainly no sociology expert, but I think this stuff needs to be heard and understood, so I do what I can. Even if I am preaching to the choir. Never know who might stumble across it in the future.
Indeed, if you're just supposed to "be yourself" and you can't get anywhere, what does that say about you? Something bad, no doubt. I know from my own experience of being on the autism spectrum that "being yourself" is often very much not the thing you want to be doing if you want to build bridges with people.
I think your analogy to being an astronaut is very accurate. Being an astronaut requires a skillset that, because of competition has to be highly developed.
Per my previous comment, re: autism, I think you're right when you say what you say here, although I meant it more in terms of somebody who has grand ideas which cannot be realised and the people they speak to know they cannot be realised. In a child you accept these fantasies, because a young child doesn't yet understand that becoming an astronaut is highly unlikely (for the reasons you mention; it requires immense fitness, serious qualifications, and a lot of luck to get picked for a mission) and that visiting Jupiter is not yet within the grasp of human technology.
But if you know somebody who has serious issues with forming relationships (romantic, platonic, or business) and they express their expectation that they're going to find a job or a partner and have a life like any other, there's a weird... I don't know, pitiful disconnect. You know that's what people do as adults, generally speaking, and it shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation, but for some people that's so difficult as to be very unlikely to happen and their past track record shows it very clearly. I am, unfortunately, one of those people. I don't yet believe it's impossible, but it's difficult to have faith in any practical likelihood of it happening, and I wouldn't blame anybody who knows me for thinking the same. I am, effectively, that child expecting to go to Jupiter. Is it 100% guaranteed physically impossible during my lifetime? No. Is it likely in any realistic, pragmatic sense? You probably wouldn't bet your pocket change on it.
I can certainly appreciate this. It's good to focus on your strengths, and they can help you compensate for your weaknesses, but if you have too many weaknesses in the wrong areas and your strengths are very much unrelated or can't balance out the weaknesses, the strengths can often go unnoticed, underappreciated, and underused. Given how I feel about my own circumstances I'm very well aware that sometimes you're just not equipped to be in any way successful in the eyes of society, but I wish you good luck all the same, because some people do pull it off, even if it takes a while. You're absolutely right though, a lot of people don't realise that some of us simply aren't equipped with the right tools and that it can be a monumental struggle simply to accomplish seemingly mundane, everday tasks.
[–]quokka29 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It’s also the fact that because you are the man you are expected to do practically all of the active tasks of courtship. So you’re harshly judged if you’re only at say, 30% of your best.
If courtship was more balanced, the man would only have to be at 50%, maximum, the woman makes up the other 50%. But, it’s more like now, the man has to be at like 80% and the woman only 20%.
Basically, courtship needs to be more egalitarian.
[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Can I make this into a post? It's very well written and I think a lot of good discussion can come out of it.
[–]bottleblank 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Sure, if you like. I don't feel as though I said anything that shouldn't already be known, but I'm all for starting discussions, and if you can make something out of what's written here, by all means, have at it. :)
In some ways I almost feel like I'm whining or just repeating truths when talking about this stuff on here, especially when somebody compliments or thanks me for having written a comment they think is good or reflective of their own experiences - I don't really feel "qualified" (in an academic sense), I'm just "some dude on the internet" having a bad day (or week, or month, or year, or decade). But clearly some of the experiences I have and that I know some other men have aren't nearly as widely considered or understood as they should be. So I guess we all should speak up and talk about what this means to us in the real world, the daily grind, the lived experience, so people can see what it's like.
In the end, all I want is for men who suffer from these experiences to be understood and helped. Any constructive or informative contribution to that is worthwhile, so absolutely, please do discuss it. :)
[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree. As a man who went through a lot of years being ashamed of my sexuality I feel like this message needs to be echoed.
[–]Cyb3rd31ic_Citiz3n 16 points17 points18 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
MensLib is pro-feminism first, woman's needs second, men's needs (at least) third.
[–]day5tar 31 points32 points33 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If you depressed, just get over it😁
[–]Is_This_Safe_To_Eat 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
r/thanksimcured
[–]bottleblank 28 points29 points30 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think this is a much more messy discussion than it might appear.
On the one hand, I don't think "just go talk to a girl" is necessarily bad advice. I think the more familiar young men are with women, their humanity, their individual personalities, and the idea that they're "just people", the better. Dividing people by gender is a terrible idea which is going to lead to less familiarity and understanding, which causes a downward spiral which can cause somebody to believe themselves to be an incel. We should be trying to aim to just get men/women and boys/girls talking and being around each other and treating each other like valuable human beings in both directions, as a collective, without worrying about who has the political advantage.
Which raises the other hand, which is that it's not always possible to "just go talk to a girl", for multiple reasons - some of which are counterproductive aspects of "feminism".
To begin with you're going to have a section of young men who are depressed, or anxious, or autistic, or "weird", or "undesireable". For those young men it is difficult to "just go talk to a girl", there are social pressures which cause you to learn (sometimes quite early on and quite forcefully) that you'd be better off not talking to a girl if the result is going to be ridicule, romantic and social rejection, and bullying, for having had the audacity to try without being considered worthy. It can be damaging to have those experiences and, having been given advice like "just go talk to them" and "be yourself" (which on the face of it seem like "good" advice), trying to act on that advice has the potential to really screw you up when it all goes horribly wrong, multiple times, and you end up getting bullied just for trying to do what everybody told you was the right and normal thing to do.
That's before you get to the ideas of anti-rape classes or hammer-drilling conditions of true consent into a kid's brain, which can cause well-meaning young men to believe that any approach is unwelcome and that they would only be intruding into a woman's personal space by trying to approach them and demanding that interaction or time of the woman.
As somebody who did start exploring romantic intentions as a young teenager, I can attest to the fact that it's very difficult if you're not popular or neurotypical. I think those early interests probably had some impact on my later impressions of what relationships look like and who has the power to initiate or sanctify attempts to form them. As an adult, sure, I think 13 is probably a bit young to be thinking "welp, that's it, my romantic life is over", but you don't come to that conclusion without reason, even if it is amplified and distorted into being "the end of the world forever" by being an inexperienced and hormonal teenager.
[–]BloomingBrains 24 points25 points26 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I saw this the other day randomly scrolling through top reddit posts and wondered when it was going to show up here. I'm glad it did.
What's most disturbing to me is that people are saying this stuff to teenagers. Somehow I'd hoped this kind of toxic attitude would be something younger generations wouldn't exhibit but dumping on disliked men is apparently a cornerstone of the human condition across time. Of course its also just as likely that the person making this post isn't even a real teenager and they are starting the indoctrination young. It's already not palatable when they're doing this stuff to do adults but wrecking young boys' self esteem and comparing them to incels is not only inexcusable, but is ironically what probably creates them most of the time.
"Just go talk to a girl..." Yeah, the problem is, boys/men who are complaining DID that, and they got told one way or another, repeatedly, that women didn't want the interaction. And especially when you're young, it's hard to not take that personally and avoid feeling like some kind of freak or monster. Hell, I still feel that way now and I'm 26. You learn to manage it better as an adult but that feeling never really goes away until (I assume) someone accepts you romantically. It's like people just automatically assume that every guy who is single is single because they were too scared to even try to talk to girls, because implying the alternative, that not all women are pristine and perfectly empathetic angels that would never turn a good guy down, is unthinkable to them.
The other thing I find absurd about this post is that it assumes depression can only be caused by being single. It's true that that can be a common reason for depression, but its not the only one. There are also boys/men with clinical depression at a biochemical level, or other mental problems that impact their social life and deny them a chance at dating through a chain reaction of effects. People that are seen as "undateable" are also often ostracized from platonic social circles as well, they go hand in hand. No one wants to date the loner and no one wants to be friends with the guy that no girls apparently thought were good enough to date. It's mindless mob mentality.
If there is one good thing to come out of this post, its the fact that it might wake boys up to the harsh realities of our world so they can be better prepared for them in the future.
[–]peanutbutterjams 25 points26 points27 points 2 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
Stop being a pussy; be a man.
Hey, maybe all men aren't built to be the ones to naturally initiate a relationship and women need to start taking more responsibility and agency in heterosexual relationships?
Naw. It must be the marginalized* who are wrong.
(Say what you will about incels but it's hard to deny that they're marginalized. Wealthy, attractive and charismatic people aren't incels.)
Edit to add:
The sexual politics that produce incels favours women and so nothing will change in this regard on the part of feminists. In popular feminism, the only gender norm worth changing is one that hurts women.
Incels can hurt women and so the blame stops at the incel and not the system that produced him.
This, from a movement that will (correctly) recognize how the American system hurts black people.
When it comes to men, the blame always stops at us. For anyone else, we (correctly) look at the systemic issues ultimately responsible for the harm caused by the individual.
But incels? In the minds of feminists, incels are just what men would be like if feminism weren't around to correct our natural defects.
[–]Syndocloud[S] 13 points14 points15 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It seems that feminists really want incels. when talks about male experiences with societal oppression come up there's this huge jump to be defensive accuse someone of blaming women are thinking their entitled for women to "solve their problems"
I experienced this once on tik tok
This girl was talking about experiencing male friend groups expecting her to date one of them eventually and girls were agreeing with her and all discussing why men always push and push and push women.
I just wanted to give some innocent male insight saying that men themselves are pushed by society to prove their achievements with women and that this might lead to that kind of thing but that is still bad when it happens.
Her and some other commenter where trying to to shoe horn me into being some misogynist who is justifying boys and men using women and kept bringing up this argument of it being men's fault and women not having to fix it or something it as wild ride.
I kept trying to be nice and just explain my point what society should pressure men less and this would happen less and they kept switching society to women and asking why I'm blaming women and then I got blocked
[–]lorarc 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Well, the sad part about men pushing women is just because we have to do it. A while ago I was having a drink with a couple of friends and the topic came up how I never ended up with that girl from our group although we have much in common and flirted for a long time. She said I wasn't trying hard enough so she thought I wasn't interested. I said I tried to ask her out a couple of times, she struck me down and I assumed she's not interested and I really didn't want to make her feel uncomfortable.
So there's that stupid where when you don't push you're not trying hard enough but when you do push you're making someone else feel uncomfortable. And as a men if you don't try to pick up a girl you may be quite sure she won't try to pick you up and there are always other guys who try harder. On the other hand girls are afraid of trying lest they be labelled as sluts. So either women start being more open about their interests or men will keep trying hard. But if you try hard you risk making someone feel bad or being labelled a pervert or a creep.
[–]SchalaZeal01 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
On the other hand girls are afraid of trying lest they be labelled as sluts.
because failing sucks, and they can avoid approaching.
[–]lorarc 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
That is not exactly true. I work in a field where many of my coworkers earn really good money, maybe not private jets level but if they were to date someone doing a normal job like a teacher they would earn 10 times more then them. And many guys are single, and maybe that's good because ending up with golddiggers is not okay.
I knew attractive guys that had problems, and sure there is always someone that's determined enough to drag them to bedbutthey are not really that successful.
And I knew a really charming and charismatic guy that had problems with girls because they all thought his face was ugly.
[–]over348 18 points19 points20 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh no! A boy online says he would want a girlfriend, and is lonely with no friends so he must be an incellllll
My God incel is literally a buzzword for people who don't kiss up and suck up to woman nowadays and the fact that this gets upvoted to 16k is worrying. This is exactly why I stay away from that sub
[–]Too_Old_1981 17 points18 points19 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
As depressing as this is, I actually have hope for the future when it comes to men being open about their mental health struggles. I'm thinking of the positive response guys like Carey Price and Jonathan Drouin received when they opened up about their struggles.
I can envison a future where this girl's opinion becomes more and more unpopular.
[–]jacksleepshere 17 points18 points19 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Incel is used for anything. Being sad about a lack of a love life doesn’t make you an incel.
[–]ithriveintoxicity 10 points11 points12 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Teenagers is just a place where teen girls go to shit on people that isn’t part on their niche group and where guys find groups to play with (not gaming groups but ideologies). Just ignore them because they feed off drama and controversy. Acknowledging their existence only makes them stronger.
[–][deleted] 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
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[–]peanutbutterjams 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is another exa.example of how women do not know how
No, it's not. For several reasons.
Unless I missed nothing, there's nothing to show that this person is female.
Even if she were, it wouldn't be an example of "how women do not know.." because that's a negative generalization about women. The amount of women you know is statistically negligible when it comes to the almost 4 billion women on earth, most of whom do not live in your country, who do not share your values and who have lived a very, very different life than you.
This could be an example of how some women do not know how to process men's emotions. If so, we'd be well-spent if tried to figure out why that was so we could tackle the problem at its source (and ensuring our focus is on the systems that lead people to misandry rather than the people themselves).
I just wanted you to know why I reported you for demonization. Please be specific with your words because anything else allows hate to breed. And hey maybe you can edit before the mods review.
[–]gominui 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I agree, though I would add that the inability to process the other gender's emotions goes both ways
[–]reverbiscrap 25 points26 points27 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I disagree, as men who do not understand women's emotions are often labeled with one of the 'undesirable' labels attached to such men.
You learn, or you pay the price.
[–]gominui -3 points-2 points-1 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Interesting. I'm curious... in your mind, what does it look like when a man does understand women's emotions?
[–]Syndocloud[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"bro that's not how you talk to a lady bro don't you have any game how are you ever gonna get girlfriend like that"
[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Removed as unfair generalization
[–]Play3r0ne 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
shit like this is why I don't participate in r/teenagers despite being a teen
[–]ConclusionDistinct84 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think this is why mgtow is a double edged sword. On the one hand, you need to be able to turn down bad deals if you're ever going to any good deals. On the other hand being completely freed from these societal constraints can give rise to essentially the same problems society's facing, but toward the other sex. It's troubling to say the least. I'm not really hopeful as I just see more antisocial people get in positions of power and abusing people with it. I've seen these kind of cycles in history and I feel uneasy about it all.
[–]throwra_coolname209 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I guess I'll be devil's advocate simply because of the subreddit it's posted in.
If it were r/datingoverthirty I'd be a lot more upset about it, bit the weird truth of the world right now is that among zoomers there are some bizarre as shit trendy things regarding mental health.
I mean, it's not too crazy to imagine the millennial "there is no light inside" emo ska archetype morphing into a perpetual sadboi zoomer one. People will do bizarre things if they think it will net them attention.
I have a problem as well with people going out to the void of the internet for actual depressive feelings as well. Mainly because it's the internet and that WILL backfire at you at some point, but also because it's so much harder to get genuine help from total strangers. They don't know you or your situation, so while it can be a legitimate help in the short term, I feel it's a bandaid on a larger issue and eventually that effort should turn toward IRL friends. I've attempted to "help" with people's depression online and sometimes it helps some, sometimes it's ignored completely, and sometimes I get hit on and realize it's manifesting in unhealthy ways.
I think this post brings up a good discussion of male gender roles and mental health, but I think contextually this post could have some weight to it.
[–]Too_Old_1981 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm not sure why both can't be used in concert? Some kids don't have any irl friends and you can't just change that overnight unfortunately.
[–]Carkudo 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The same shit does routinely get posted on r/datingoverthirty
[–]Grahftheseeker 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Any men who dares question any girl boss about anything anytime any place is an incel nowadays
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