Feminism | MensRights

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[–]Hello_Hello_AU 23 points24 points25 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dad ran men shelters, in Australia

he had to be careful, not to get in trouble for not letting women in,

He tried letting women in, but they pressured him for sex etc,

Sometimes women would send a boyfriend in trying to catch dad out,

Dad basically broke the law, by having 90% men and 10% women (dad had more than one house)

(for example one woman started selling drugs to children next door, women who want to live in a men's shelter are bit more evil than the average)

And yes dad asked the government permission to be single gender, he did this verbally they told him, that he would need to take extra steps to make it a safe environment for women (yes a men shelter, had to take female clients) He never asked for this in writing, because he would have to admit he did not want women in the houses

Apparently men who live in a men shelters are consider intellectual disabilitied.

Dad had quite a few men who had left their wife due to fear of their lives, Also men who wife kicked them out because their wife had developed a sex addiction

Dad also has a few men who became missing persons,

Dad was the largest men shelters in the country, which is sad because how small dad was.

(dad went bankrupt, we survived because it turned out the local supermarket was ran by an ex tenant)

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[+]Uintahwolf -72 points-71 points-70 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[+]ProvedElite1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

Hey bro, you’re a worthwhile person, and you deserve to be happy.

This sub is supposed to be supportive of men. A lot of the guys here, me included, found this place after being burned pretty badly. Sometimes we let our emotions get the best of us, but at the end of the day, we’re really all just men who are trying to be the best versions of ourselves, and feel like we should stand up for other men who aren’t being treated fairly.

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[+]ProvedElite1 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

You're right, it doesn't. Both men and women are only human, and I see that. We should never make lazy jabs at women. That's something you and I agree on. I don't agree with everything on this sub, but then again, who could agree with everything on a sub? I think the men here have the intention of doing good. And even though sometimes we lose our way, we make an effort to find the right path again. We are flawed, but we are trying. That's the human condition. We, as men, know that we make errors. We fuck up. We destroy things that are good. But, we want something better. We want a life that's good and wholesome, and that brings goodness into others' lives. We're all trying our best, but we're all only human. I extend to you my hand in friendship, in complete humility. The truth is, you and I will never meet each other in person, and maybe this will be our only interaction, but I just want you to know that no matter how this sub comes across, there are people here who genuinely care, not just about men, but about people as a whole.

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[+]Really_Quite_Boring1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

This is changing. I reported harassment at work and it was taken extremely seriously.

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[+]Really_Quite_Boring1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

I was working at a pub and a gay team leader was super creepy and finally grabbed my arse while I was serving a customer. I told my AM over a pint and he immediately said he would escalate and the guy would be sacked. I told him not to as the guy was a pathetic POS, 45 living with his mum and working for £7 an hour. Always talked about how depressed he was and I worried that losing the only thing in his life would be the straw that caused him to top himself and I didn't want that on my conscience. In retrospect I probably should have pressed further as who knows who he's fucking with now. I knew he and I were both leaving that place within the next month so I just told the AM not to put us on shifts together again. He insisted that at any point I could take it further if I wanted to and there was no humour or derision. The AM was a great guy. Anyway that's what happened. Couldn't have asked for much more from my workplace.

[+]Benito_Mussolini1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm not trying to be mean but you have some victim mentality with this situation. What I mean is, you are too concerned about the offending party and not self-helping yourself. I get it though and have done the same thing.

[+]Really_Quite_Boring1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I was very young at the time. I was 19, he was in his forties. I'm a different man today and would not have dealt with it in the same way. Not sure my response is relevant. I was harassed and my workplace took it extremely seriously, as they should have done. My choices are my own; my point was about how reporting is treated.

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[+]queenlatifa6661 points 7 years ago [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

It is not saying that it supports giving women MORE rights than men, it supports giving women rights that men already have. In no way does helping empower women and giving them access to the same opportunities as men lower the rights that men have. Real feminists don’t want to take anything away from men.

[–]Halafax 15 points16 points17 points 7 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]queenlatifa6661 points 7 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

I think it’s dangerous to assume every feminist has the exact same motives and opinions. Similar to how you can be a Conservative but still believe in some liberal policies. An overwhelming amount support custody reform. I believe a lot of the feminist outrage you hear really is only a small portion of the overall movement. They’re just louder.

I agree that there have been injustices aligned with feminism, and myself and many other feminists will continue to try to right the wrongs. Maybe our efforts are not great enough and we should work to being better allies with the men’s right movement.

[–]Uqtpa 8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I believe a lot of the feminist outrage you hear really is only a small portion of the overall movement. They’re just louder.

Those feminists are louder because they are the ones that are actually making things happen. They are the large and well-funded feminist organizations. They are the ones that are changing laws and influencing public policies. They are the loud and real feminists. Not to mention the ones that are teaching college courses and writing academic theories. And all the feminists who work for newspapers and magazines.

The men in here couldn't care less about social media feminists such as yourself because you have no impact whatsoever. It's the behavior of the aforementioned feminist organizations (which are all anti-male) that matter because they have an impact on men's lives. They are the real feminists. Your argument about how it's "only a small portion of the overall movement" is simply false. The same goes for your "Real feminists don’t want to take anything away from men" argument.

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[+]queenlatifa6661 points 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Women outside of developed countries matter too. Feminism is more than the “wage gap” and required percentage of female hires (which isn’t widely agreed on within feminism), but advocating for the rights of women globally. We spend a lot of time fuelling the fires of small or nonexistent issues while we could be trying to share our opportunities with women who don’t have them.

[–]AKnightAlone 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

but advocating for the rights of women globally.

Interesting how poorly defined everything becomes when there are massive established powers pushing "solutions." Women have problems in plenty of countries, which also coincidentally relates to how much of the world is deprived of wealth and resources because of massive imperialist countries that topple democratic governments, manipulate markets, and allow their "corporations" to extend into their territories in order to exploit their desperation.

Actually reminds me of a lot of bullshit I heard when Sanders was running in the primaries.

"How can an old white man know what is needed to help women and minorities??" — Says the media companies run and/or controlled by sociopathically greedy old white men.

What he would tend to acknowledge, very similar to MLK Jr. just before he was assassinated, is the importance of wealth distribution, aka: power distribution, as far as what contributes to a functioning and healthy society. If people want to help out the rights of women and neglected minorities world-wide, all we'd need to do is focus on the the massive imbalance of wealth/power control that sucks inward into these self-labeled "first world countries" like a black hole.

If we want any of the world to improve at any sort of significant rate, it's going to require a massive coordinated effort toward worker rights and democracy in the most powerful countries. If we can't control our own leaders who drain the vast majority of our livelihood away *while we know their values are so nonexistent, it just proves that we're the biggest failure in the chain of power. We're generally wealthy and educated, yet we allow sociopaths to take away most of our wealth and power in a way that puts the massive portions of the planet into a state that seems similar to a post-apocalyptic nightmare for us as we sleep in our soft and warm beds with tens of thousands of dollars of debt clogging our minds.

This is a human rights matter, and the fact that so many of these discussions devolve into divisive conversations about basic aspects of our identity is telling of the fact that the people in power are controlling the flow of information and debate.

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[+]sock_lover1 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

So toxic femininity is "unhealthy societal standards for women"?

[–]PM_ME_COCKS_CUMMING -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]sock_lover1 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

So toxic femininity is "unhealthy societal standards for women"? The Gillette ad is not showing unhealthy societal standards for men.

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[–]AloysiusC 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If you are genuinely asking then yes, that is an aspect of toxic masculinity.

I'm genuinely asking but your answer is not coherent with the principles of labeling groups of people by their traits. You don't describe something done to a people as a trait of said people.

Ideas like "men should be stoic", "men should be big and strong", "men should be the breadwinners" would be examples of societal standards for men which are enforced mostly just via social pressures.

These are far older than culture. Why do you think men are physically bigger and stronger? They wouldn't have deviated from women in that way had it not been required of them.

So another way to phrase "toxic masculinity" would be to call it "unhealthy societal standards for men".

Firstly, is it really unhealthy to require people to e stoic? Other examples are also questionable.

Secondly, who is making these standards and demanding them of men? There's not much incentive for men to do it to themselves.

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The are lots of women who do identify and lots of don't and they all have they're reasons.

Most women don't identify as feminist, please tell me your next sentence isn't going to be "All women who don't like feminism are stupid!"

One of the reasons I can for sure say that some women don't identify with feminism is because there's a large amount of anti feminism propoganda and misinformation.

You let me down -.-

Feminist: "If you don't agree with feminism you're a sheep"

You're right any woman who disagrees with feminism must be some moron falling for propaganda, I'd like to make your post Exhibit #31561 of the "Reasons Why Feminism Is Awful" museum. Nice cult you have there.

Just look at this subreddit for instance. It's all about people who support men's rights but can't seem to do that without attacking feminism with strawmen a large amount of the time.

Feminism is a hate movement, it directly fights against equality, it's very hard to fight for equality when you have a movement saying "All men are rapists" or "You shouldn't call it rape when a woman rapes a man" or "Men don't need DV shelters".

The Duluth Model (the idea that Domestic Violence is inherently male and is perpetrated because of the 'patriarchy' - the patriarchy being the made up feminist boogeyman) has resulted in countless male victims of female abusers being ignored or even arrested.

And you guys get triggered hard by feminist ideas that help men as well (eg toxic masculinity) because you don't even want to understand it but instead would rather scream about how feminism is bad and regurgitate misinformation and talking points instead of engaging in the material.

Feminism is based on patriarchy theory, the idea that Men and Boys are subhuman patriarchal oppressors while casting Women and Girls as innocent victims. Under Feminism women can do nothing wrong and Men can do nothing right.

Men and Boys are 80% of suicides, 92% of workplace deaths, 72% of the homeless. Males are a minority at every level of education.

There is no White House Council on Men and Boys but there is one for Women and Girls yet boys are worse off in every societal metric. Men live shorter lives than Women but there is an Office for Women's Health (WomensHealth.gov) but no Office For Mens Health (no MensHealth.gov)

When the recession hit men were hurt worst, the feminist response? Hijack an aid bill that would've helped those hurt worst by the recession and give the money to women who were largely unaffected.

The majority of people entering college are Women yet Women and ONLY Women receive affirmative action, feminists have unilaterally opposed giving the same treatment to men in this regard.

Feminism has been in full swing for at least 100 years, and women still haven't been obligated to register for the draft.

Feminism needs to go, it has done nothing but harm, your 100 year attempt is over, your movement is getting less and less popular.

People don't oppose Feminism because of "propaganda" they oppose it because Feminism does nothing to actually support equality. Ironically you effectively calling everyone who dares not accept your label 'sheep' only makes it more clear that Feminism is an ideological cult rather than a movement for equality.

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[+]datsraycists1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

tbf, feldman has been talking about this for like 30 something years. at this point he likely wants to make some money on it (fair considering how much lewinksy still makes doing speeches, this metoo thing is great money for her)

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[+]Pake10001 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (28 children) | Copy Link

Except for when people on here shit all over him and the Gillette commercial.

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[–]Uintahwolf 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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Because he has came out 100% against toxic masculinity. Is he also bigoted and stupid ?

Terry Crews is a person, a commercial is not. That being said I'd say coming out against something that doesn't exist is pretty stupid, and it certainly makes him bigoted as he's ignoring that all of the behaviors that sexists try to attribute to "Toxic Masculinity" are in no way related to manhood - women engage in every single one of those behaviors.

Again, "Toxic Masculinity" is a bigoted concept, it's like saying "Mansplain" it's used to try and deny that women participate equally in negative behaviors (i.e. being condescending), a weak attempt at sweeping female perpetrators and male victims under the rug, often times these sexist phrases are used as a way of telling men "Shut up, you're not allowed an opinion because you're 'mansplaining' or you have 'toxic masculinity'".

You cannot name a single thing about "toxic masculinity" that is not perpetrated by females, because the word itself is nonsensical.

[–]Uintahwolf -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Your whole argument against toxic masculinity is that some female participate in reinforcing toxic masculinity?

"Toxic Masculinity" doesn't exist, the behaviors you call "Toxic Masculinity" can be performed by any gender thus women are also "Toxically Masculine" which is an asinine statement indicative of the nonsensical nature of the phrase.

So , in the meme it says "Man up" , coming from a crowd of men.

No, in the meme I see a bunch of stick figures - many of which are just the tops of heads, I didn't assume they're all men because I'm not a bigot, I assumed it's a simplistic drawing style. Women routinely use that language and they do so to manipulate men, I'd argue Women use it far more than men do usually as a way of trying to silence male voices.

When you hear the phrase "man up" , you dont feel like thats ignoring the complexity of the individual, and rather telling them to just "be a man" and deal with it?

When someone tells you to "Man up" they're usually telling you "You don't matter" or they're attempting to shame you into doing what they want you to do. Feminism was built around this concept, they shame men into being obedient. A lot times they mean "Stop complaining because you're upsetting the victim narrative Feminism has built, we don't want to hear about Men's suffering" - but they can't get away with saying that so they try to shame you.

You dont think that whole concept, that men are supposed to constantly be strong , is a bit fucked up, and should be done away with?

Men SHOULD be strong, just as Women should, they're grown adults.

Feminism has infantilized women and made them into pathetic children, "WAAAAAH, THE MEN TALKED TO ME ON THE STREET", "WAAAAAAH THE SCIENTIST WORE A SHIRT WITH WOMEN ON IT", the childish screams are constant and I don't wish that on men anymore than I wish it upon women.

I think the idea that grown adults should be moments away from sobbing in a safe space because they hear words they disagree with needs to be done away with - you are an adult act like one. Strength isn't the problem weakness is, weak people hold back their views/opinions/reactions because of people bitching and moaning about it, strong people do not.

You really need to stop pretending that women can do nothing wrong, bad behavior is gender neutral anyone can be a bad person. Nothing about masculinity\femininity is toxic, it's the person who is bad.

[–]Uintahwolf -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Women have what's called toxic feminity

Again, nonsense, it's a stupid nonsensical word that never gets used (owing to the original sexist intent of "Toxic Masculinity").

Since they're women, they cant themselves experience what it's like trying to be "masculine" in a man's world, because they aren't men.

Lost all respect for you when you said "Man's World", the west in particular is wildly gynocentric.

I love how you said being told to "man up" is just people not caring about you and trying to get you what to do, and then your last 4 paragraphs are you saying society needs to get stronger (man up) ,

I never used the words "Man up" I used the word "Strength" you are the one who is slandering Strength because you don't understand what it is. "Man up" has no relation to strength, "Man up" means "Stay weak and do what I want you to do, oh and shut up about it because your issues don't matter to me"
If you had more than one functioning brain cell you'd have read "I think the idea that grown adults should be moments away from sobbing in a safe space because they hear words they disagree with needs to be done away with - you are an adult act like one. Strength isn't the problem weakness is, weak people hold back their views/opinions/reactions because of people bitching and moaning about it, strong people do not. "

People who won't say what they think because others won't like it are weak, People who fall apart immediately when they hear things they don't like are weak. It is not my fault you have no idea what strength is.

and you tell me I need to stop doing something .

Do you not see the hypocrisy?

There is no hypocrisy, your inability to read is concerning. "You really shouldn't do that" is not a command "Man up" (translation "Shut up because according to Feminism you are not allowed a voice") is a command.

I simply gave you advice:
"You really need to stop pretending that women can do nothing wrong, bad behavior is gender neutral anyone can be a bad person. Nothing about masculinity\femininity is toxic, it's the person who is bad. "

This advice will serve you well, best of luck figuring out how not to be a bigot.

Peace.

[–]Uintahwolf 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Man up is synonymous with "be stronger" . It's ok if English isnt your first language dude , but a synonym means (from Google when searching "definition of synonym) "a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language, for example shut is a synonym of close."

I understand it might be a bit difficult to grasp, but that's pretty much what it means.

And its interesting that you argue the western world is gynocentric. You make it seem like there are no boys athletic clubs in schools, that teenage boys that have their own groups of friends , seperate from girls, where they do typical teenage boy things (A.K.A. being in a "man's world") . I wasnt saying the entire world is a man's world, but simply that boys experience high school a lot different from girls. Girls are told to focus, by society, family, friends, on specific things, that's their "women's world" . As a man , you will never understand what its like to give birth, or have your period. These are women things . Just like a woman wont ever be able to experience what its like to have a penis , or to be part of a group of society that places great emphasis on strength (theres that word you used so much) and toughness.

Are you arguing that a teenage girl and teenage boy go through the exact same experiences , and worry about the exact same things?

It's ok to admit when you're wrong , or have learned something new. You dont need to keep rambling on.

[+]Pake10001 points 7 years ago [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

And they you go blaming men for being victims. Nice job.

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It was showcasing men stepping up to other men.

Yes, because the message was that men are evil, that's why the majority of the people in the video were 'bad' men. Note that men never stepped up to abusive women because the message was "Women are perfect and infallible, it is men who are bad".

It showed men being good fathers.

Those were about 2% of the men in the video, the other 98% were portrayed as abusive awful human beings, the line of people grilling while chanting was meant to say "All men are bad, men are a cult, they're all responsible for this", meanwhile 99% of the men on the planet never engage in those behaviors. Women are bullies, women are abusive, etc. just as men do, the video had nothing to do with masculinity.

It showed men can be victims.

No, it showed that men can be perpetrators, it's the weak Feminist argument that "patriarchy hurts men too!" the same argument they use when they say "Don't recognize male victims of female rapists!" as Mary P. Koss does.

Note that in the video Women are NEVER bad, they are flawless every woman in the video was good, the majority of the men were 'bad'.

Hell they shamed men just for wanting to SPEAK to a woman, the assumption being that any Man who dares approach a woman has ill intent.

[–]Uintahwolf -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]Pake10001 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

If you believe cat calling and then trying to follow a woman is acceptable, you're a moron.

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then why are they footnotes? you didnt see terry crews on that cover of time magazine

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because it's just as often, if not more often, women who use those tactics to shame men for showing weakness. It's not toxic "masculinity", it's just toxic in general.

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[–]genkernels 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

I think I understand your point but “shaming men for showing weakness” is exactly the sort of thing feminists would like to stop.

That is not so. Have a look at feminist terminology and draw analogies between terms about men and terms about women. Terms about women, like patriarchy and internalized misogyny excise blame from the subject, terms like "toxic masculinity" however...yeah. Some feminists claim to support the end of shaming men for showing weakness as a byproduct of eliminating gender roles. However that simply isn't followed through in practice -- partially because the framework is built to do exactly the opposite.

The very term, "toxic masculinity" was created by the mythopoetic folks as a shaming tool in the hope of creating social change, and it is used as a shaming tool to this day.

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I have already objected to the sentiment when I attacked the term "toxic masculinity" itself. Then I attacked the strategy, and then further when I attacked the use of the gendered term "toxic masculinity" as a response to "man up". How much more do you want me to disagree with the sentiment? Naturally my two sentences disagreeing with its effectiveness are important, but not that important.

I mean, I could also point out that in many cases teaching people, especially boys stoicism, that is the restriction of emoting in public rather than a general restriction on emoting, is currently a highly useful strategy and may for a variety of reasons end up being a desirable social norm in perpetuity. It is a little off-topic I think, but does that help?

If you are objecting to my condoning a form of shaming as a tool of social cohesion, then I would say that some less intense forms of shaming are indeed more or less universal and irreplaceable. But usually such things are individually targeted and relate to personal responsibility, unlike "toxic masculinity" which is and has been from its inception more of a group shaming tool that can be applied to individuals. In short, it is grammatically equivalent to "toxic blackness", is just as acceptable, and functions as slur just like it. In that sense I also disagree with the sentiment of the term.

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Nah, I stop by this sub pretty regularly even if I don't comment much myself and it's more like:

[Man] -- I got harassed/beat/raped by my psycho girlfriend/wife

[ r/ MensRights] -- Dude thats horrible and unacceptable! We're here for you, since there aren't any shelters for men and the police hardly ever believe men

[Woman] -- I got harassed/beat/raped by my abusive boyfriend/husband

[ r/ MensRights] -- That's horrible and unacceptable! Call the police on his ass and leave him asap!

[Celebrity claims they were raped 30 years ago at a party where everyone including their alleged rapist was completely drunk and everyone was there for sex]

[The General Public] -- HANG HIM! CUT HIS DICK OFF AND THROW HIM IN PRISON FOR LIFE!

[ r/ MensRights] -- Uhhh... I'll wait to see the evidence, even though this celebrity is a known Third Wave Feminist/shit-stirrer and the accused has an otherwise clean track record

[SJW Blogger/Tumblr user] -- I was STARE-RAPED by a MANSPREADING SHITLORD on (insert public form of transportation here)!

[ r/ MensRights and literally all sane people] -- ... ummm... sure...

[+]Uintahwolf -18 points-17 points-16 points 7 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

I reported two Male coworkers for harassing me, two different jobs about 4 years apart. They got fired. I got made fun of CONSTANTLY by the other men for being a "pussy" and not just fighting the other dudes. The typical situation I see when one man is verbally harassing another, and he is asked to stop, his friends mock the guy for being a pussy and not taking a joke. Rarely do I see or hear women in public, or online, mock men for talking about being harassed. However I always see men who give other men shit , telling them to man up or just fight the other person.

"Harass" is going to be twisted around to mean physical violence by women towards men now that I've said this, I'm sure. I digress.

Certainly women do it too, but let's be real here, most of the time its other men giving us shit.

If that's the case, why is this a feminism issue, and not a "meninsm" issue , or a masculinity issue? The ones making life harder for us are our fellow men.

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IMO tradcons are bad too, but that's just your experiences. In other people's experiences (like mine) it's the women who get pissed when I call out their sisterhood for being rude or harassing or vile.

For example in highschool when I got my first real girlfriend she talked with other girls in my class who told her that I was a racist, homophone and whatever other insert buzzword they could think of.

They did this because evidently I pissed them off enough by existing that they didn't want me to have any relationships. Mind you these girls were people I ate lunch with at school.

Is this toxic femininity or just being an asshole? Because people are individuals and I don't blame all women on the planet for some women being assholes but lots of people like to do that to men (paint with a broad brush) including you(?)

[–]Uintahwolf 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

That's being an asshole .

Toxic femininity is , just like toxic masculinity, common practices and beliefs associated with femininity and women. Things like : A real woman should be married and have children, or shes not a real woman. A real woman needs to learn to cook and clean, and not learn "manly" things. A real woman should provide for her husband and the children, while he does the work. A real woman gives birth without any pain killers, or without getting a c section. A real woman sits with her legs crossed , not cross legged or open like a man. A real woman doesnt raise her voice, is obedient, and allows men to assist her.

This also crosses into toxic masculinity sometimes, where a man shouldnt be telling a woman how to do womanly things. Like a man pointing out to a woman shes cooking something incorrectly would be laughable, because of course that's a woman's job and women know more about such feminine tasks, because men are supposed to work not cook. The woman , due to toxic feminity, feels she is being more of a genuine person than the man, due to her understanding of what a man is, which comes from toxic masculinity.

As a man, to a fellow man I'm assuming, you've never in your entire life been told what a "real man" is ? Or what "real men" do?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Toxic femininity is , just like toxic masculinity, common practices and beliefs associated with femininity and women.

what's inherently wrong with that lol

A real woman should be married and have children, or shes not a real woman. A real woman needs to learn to cook and clean, and not learn "manly" things. A real woman should provide for her husband and the children, while he does the work. A real woman gives birth without any pain killers, or without getting a c section. A real woman sits with her legs crossed , not cross legged or open like a man. A real woman doesnt raise her voice, is obedient, and allows men to assist her.

so if someone likes those things then are they being toxic? What happened to "let people do what they want to/for themselves." Nothing is wrong with being a feminine woman.

This also crosses into toxic masculinity sometimes, where a man shouldnt be telling a woman how to do womanly things. Like a man pointing out to a woman shes cooking something incorrectly would be laughable, because of course that's a woman's job and women know more about such feminine tasks

you don't seem to live in reality lol.

The woman , due to toxic feminity, feels she is being more of a genuine person than the man, due to her understanding of what a man is, which comes from toxic masculinity.

these terms are meaningless tbh. I am more confused now than I was before.

As a man, to a fellow man I'm assuming, you've never in your entire life been told what a "real man" is ? Or what "real men" do?

not really, my parents just wanted me to do what I wanted when I grew up. That went from paleontology to engineering... Same with my girl's parents. Being told I was not a "real man" by anyone other than my immediate family when I was a young age (something that never happened to my memory with that exact phrase) is just laughable too because why should I care what a stranger thinks?

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Misinterpretation by the feminists themselves

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Inceltears is thataway

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so let me try to walk myself through this

1.) toxic masculinity is the bad things society (whatever that is) pressures men into acting like. For example... uh... being mean to other men who don't act like they do?

2.) women can uphold these things (in other words shame men who aren't traditionally masculine) but we don't have a word for that because toxic femininity is...

3.) when women act in the ways that society (whatever that is) wants them to behave like.

Ok so in other words, a woman who is happily married with children is being toxicly feminine by existing right?

And men who like sports and lifting weights are being toxicly masculine even if they don't talk shit to other people?

Basically these words are just around so you can judge people for acting in ways that you don't like it seems. Well then.

[–]reanimatedjimjones -4 points-3 points-2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Aight so you’re just gonna pretend I think a woman having a family is toxic.

that was clearly a question. Note the fucking quesiton mark lol

Lol also I’m calling you autistic because you keep pretending to not understand how people can have pressure from the world around them.

How much pressure? Because IMO it's barely any. Give some examples of it and how it's so overwhelming.

Like if I said “in general, society tells us that it’s not really cool to take shit out of your ass and offer it to strangers on the street” that would just blow your mind right?

I would still ask you what society means... Do you mean the law, do you mean common decency? What do you mean by society?

Like society doesn’t exist and every person is just a monolith of opinions and personalities.

ye, wow you are finally understanding that people are individuals and aren't forced to do things by others magically. I can go and wear a tutu and have long hair as a guy and the most I will get is some glances (especially in today's culture). There is no boogymonster of frat bros going around yelling at everyone not conforming to whatever you think they are making you conform to. That's called being a paranoid schizophrenic.

If you watch this and come back thinking it’s completely retarded then alright I’m not gonna say any other stuff

it's retarded. It's basically masculenity gatekeeping and defining what other people are as toxic. He even says it's a buzzword. How would he fell if toxic blackness was a thing?

He also says TM is = to regular masculenity taken "too far" which still means that masculinity inherently is bad at high dosages. Which is stupid and hateful of men. It's like saying that a guy who is too much of a sportsbro or whatever has something wrong with him.... would you say the same about women who are too feminine?

It's just demonizing people that they don't like because those men are stronger than them or like different hobbies. Oh no, I watch MMA too much and weight train. Must be toxic, just ignore every other aspect of me as a person lol.

Completely dehumanizing.

[–]AloysiusC 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]pacmatt27 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Sorry, no. You can't claim that it's a problem with masculinity when it's women who are reinforcing it. You can't say "Oooh, this hot pile of masculinity is so toxic, I wish it would stop" when you're squatting there pumping it out like a bad curry.

A societal problem, maybe. I'd accept that. A cultural construct whereby men are forced into behaving a certain way to avoid chastisement from others (male or female). Yep. That seems acceptable. It has nothing to do with masculinity though, does it? That's what we call "men being bullied" and here you are trying to suggest it's their problem that they're being bullied. I wonder what your thoughts on victim blaming are.

I don't really know why I'm speaking to you tbh. Your post history is full of you calling people retarded and autistic while woefully overestimating your intellectual ability. You just seem like a bit of a cunt so I know this won't be productive.

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The OP is being a bit disingenuous because we’ve seen certain men claim abuse and get feminist support (Terry Crews). But I think you’re being a bit disingenuous with your response in terms of toxic masculinity/toxic femininity. Toxic masculinity is seen as something that negatively effects men and women.

Your examples of “toxic femininity” seem like they are only negative in how they effect women. And often times those flaws in femininity are framed as being the fault of men. I don’t think toxic femininity is a coined phrase, but if it were and I’d have to give an example it wouldn’t (just) be women having to be in the home, but the idea that they shouldn’t have to work if they don’t want to.

Even framing it in a dichotomy male vs female seems to be a misstep because it’s never only societal pressure from one gender.

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Since I identify as a left leaning person, I cant have friends who dont totally believe in my philosophical and political beliefs?

no, but you are less likely to. It's a pretty well documented case of in group bias. I don't know you personally but if you are this deep into feminist rhetoric I doubt that many non feminists would put up with this (just like how I don't have many feminist friends because I don't like putting up with them and they don't put up with me)

I practice Stoicism, and 99% of the people in my life have absolutely no idea what that is.

isn't that just another word for toxic masculinity lol. You not wanting to talk to everyone about your problems is toxic masculinity from what I have been told.

Just because some people put themselves into these echo chambers doesnt mean everyone does .

of course not, but it just tends to happen naturally. I'm an athiest, centrist and MRA and trust me my friends who AREN'T those things tend to not talk much with me about things like feminism or religion or politics mostly because I don't find those super important conversations.

Good on you for being able to talk with those people but as someone once told me "having a token ____ friend doesn't remove your bias"

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There are certain topics that I cant discuss with all my friends.

Examples are :assisted suicide, atheism, trans culture, extreme feminism , communism, sex, drugs, certain genres of music , anime, tattoos, history, philosphy , video games

Would you discuss a really violent murder/rape case you read about with your friend who's father was recently murdered, or who themself was raped? Probabaly not.

Would you discuss communism with your MAGA hat wearing buddy who thinks literally anything other than capitalism is pure trash? Hard pass.

Would you try and discuss the history of bluegrass with your rave buddies who have absolutely no idea what bluegrass is, let alone know anything other than DJs? No.

Would you talk about this awesome acid trip you had with your mormon buddy who just got back from his mission, who's constantly talking about how weed destroyed his family? Absolutely not.

Do YOU actually have friends in real life ?

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Who enforces toxic masculinity? Society .

nonanswer is nonanswer. Who in society? The men or women? In what ways?

What happens if you dont do what society tells you? You got mocked , you become a pariah, you get shunned or disgraced.

or you get ignored... Examples of where being against what "society" (whatever that means) doesn't mean shit are..

athiesm
being gay
being a feminist (if you think you are a pariah for not being a feminist then lol)

and a few more if I really thought about it. You would need to define society more first.

You dont think that other men are giving other men shit for not knowing how to fix their car?

no. And even if they do it's no different than someone teasing someone for not knowing how to type. Fixing your car is a pretty useful skill for anyone.

For not having a beard, or drinking beer?

I do neither of those things and nobody I know gives a fuck.

Or for having a "hipster" beard and drinking "hipster" beer?

So you CAN be mocked for not having a beard or for HAVING a beard? You just contradicted yourself in 2 sentences. Amazing

You cant think of a single example of men telling other men they're being "pussies", acting like women, like a faggot, or not being a "real man"?

only from 80's movie bad guys lol. Bullies IRL are usually not the most popular people, especially those calling people slurs.

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[+]AssaultTec1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Harassment should be tolerated, unless it's extreme. I get that people want equality, but we aren't equal (obviously). Men can tolerate more, so complaining for a minor account I can't agree with. But with anything major, the accusation and severity should be considered regardless of gender. Legally speaking, they should be treated the same, no matter the level. Reality speaking, just take it or report it.

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As a man myself I know toxic masculinity exists. Have you ever been told to man up because you didn't do something traditionally masculine?

Yes, BY WOMEN, it's called shaming someone for not being subservient to you, women and men both do it. Someone is trying to manipulate you, that is not a gendered action.

Are you so blind as to think that this is a gendered issue?

To give up your man card for doing healthy things like display emotion?

Again, only by the "Male Tears" feminists who attack me any time I mention things like high male suicide rates. The same feminists who think that men don't need DV shelters.

Toxic Masculinity doesn't exist, it is a sexist word used to shame men and claim that men and only men exhibit bad behaviors - just like you have just attempted.

Your argument is like me saying "Wow, haven't you ever had a black guy do something mean to you? #ToxicBlackness", you're taking rare incidences that can obviously be perpetrated by anyone and using those instances to shame everyone with a certain physical trait, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[–]Uintahwolf -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You dont think, in any sense, that there is this notion out there that men need to constantly be strong , and never show their emotions? That if these ideas do exist , you dont think that these are holding men back and harming the development of men?

I'm a man and I'm not shamed by toxic masculinity, because I dont take a part of it, and havent since I was a teenager and realized I cant be a macho shit head 24/7 until I die. The same goes for a lot of men. You cant just speak for the rest of us dude. You should be ashamed of yourself for implying the rest of us men are shaming ourselves by trying to be a bit more complex than a frat boy.

You've never had another man tell you to man up, and have it enrage you? Either you live on an island full of women that despise you, or you're lying to seem superior.

[–]PoppyOP -5 points-4 points-3 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

jYou are aware that it doesn't matter WHO is doing the shaming right? It's still toxic masculinity.

Yes, I'm well aware, because women are incapable of doing anything wrong right?

If women are abusive it's "Toxic Masculinity" if men are abusive it's "Toxic Masculinity", it's always "Toxic Masculinity" because "Toxic Masculinity" is a scapegoat - a way of saying "All the worlds problems are due to men!".

The old feminist saying goes something like "If a man does something wrong it's his fault, if a woman does something wrong it's a mans fault". I get that Feminism is a hate movement, you don't have to explain it to me.

And you're talking out of your ass if you're going to pretend that it's only ever women who say this sort of BS.

Only ever? No, primarily? In my experience undeniably. My original statement was "women and men both do it" which is undeniably true.

That being said, I've seen zero men in "Male Tears" shirts but I've seen quite a few feminists, I've seen tons of women\feminists say "Man up" when they want men to stop advocating for their rights or complaining about inequality.

Feminism opposes equality that's why Feminists were so outraged by the founder of the first battered womens shelter opening a shelter for battered men.

[–]PoppyOP -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I'm well aware, because women are incapable of doing anything wrong right?

Yay yet another strawman!

If women are abusive it's "Toxic Masculinity" if men are abusive it's "Toxic Masculinity", it's always "Toxic Masculinity" because "Toxic Masculinity" is a scapegoat - a way of saying "All the worlds problems are due to men!".

You clearly don't understand what toxic masculinity is then. It's not about who is saying it is about the content of what they're saying. A simple concept that you can't seem to be able to grasp.

The old feminist saying goes something like "If a man does something wrong it's his fault, if a woman does something wrong it's a mans fault". I get that Feminism is a hate movement, you don't have to explain it to me.

Look yet anther strawman

This is extremely tiring tbh.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[+]MarkthorStormblade -8 points-7 points-6 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Feminism
Author	thedarkvoid3412
Upvotes	4284
Comments	256
Date	February 2, 2019 2:24 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ameh9b/feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminism.884638 https://theredarchive.com/post/884638

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