Gender is a social construct? David Reimer was raised as a girl after a failed circumcision. He killed himself in 2004 after a 40 year experiment in gender fluidity.

I'm not sure if I'm fed up with feminists, in general. Most have been very receptive to men's issues when I couch the issues to them along the lines of:

"You still need to make gains, but just like the Jews should be aware of what they are doing to the Palestinians now that they escaped annihilation, women must be careful not to push men into the same kind of shoes they once were trapped in."

When they start saying things about shit women clearly experience and men don't on such a scale, I cite other issues that are unintended consequences of asserting "equality" for one sex and not the other (i.e., the concept of disposable males and men being treated like inferior beings any time they try and express vulnerable emotion or shame).

Anyways, long story short, I am fed up with a refusal of the few to approach issues from an egalitarian standpoint, giving a bad name to the many who merely think they are doing everything they can to advance equality --- on both sides.

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It revolves around one issue, so while everybody here has an interest in promoting awareness of discrimination and men's issues that are ignored by society at large, that's often the only viewpoint that's common.

So you're going to get a wide variety of people with different political views and lifestyles squabbling over everything else.

Case in point, AVFM is highly respected by some users here, while I think it's far too vitriolic and harmful to men's rights overall, despite drawing attention to it. Seriously, it's like the Dworkin of the MRM, providing an easy way to discredit it.

But hey, that's my opinion, it doesn't mean I don't think the MRM is important or invalid, just that I think it should be gone about another way. If it really starts to bother me, I'll start my own damn subreddit.

Well, all that and the lack of moderation since this is an actual safe space where you can say your opinion without fear of it being censored - just be aware that you'll also have to defend it, or suffer your jimmies being all rustled by random people on the internet (oh noes!)

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No, but there is a distinct problem of the most vocal Feminists being the ones who are also the craziest.

I feel that Feminists, Feminist theory, and Feminism as a political movement are all very different things at this point in time. While most Feminists don't identify with Dworkin is a position I find reasonable, I have to say that the political movement side has a large amount of self-interest in perpetuating women as victims and demonizing the MRM.

See the recent protest against Mr. Farrell (although I'm sure you're sick of hearing that by now). It's notable because it was organized by the students union, and is comparable to other actions taken by Feminist societies in Universities across North America in regards to starting up Men's societies, or Male safe spaces.

How about the political history of NOW in regards to paternity?

The language used in VAWA?

The legal definition of rape, and the abandonment of "Innocent until proven guilty" in the cases of rape - heavily influenced to be discriminatory against men by Feminist politics and lobbyist groups.

I'm just hitting the softballs here, too. There's also the concept of "The Patriarchy", "Benevolent Sexism" or discrimination against men by any other name. Unless you want to call being expected to be the main breadwinner "Benevolent Sexism" against men.

Worst of all, I find, is the fact that whenever the MRM tries to apply the viewpoints Feminism gave them the tools to use, Feminists step in and say "No, you can only do it through our lens, through our experience with discrimination as women". How do you think Feminists would react if men said "Wow, you're right, you face these problems. Better let the men step in and fix it for you, no, you can't do it yourself."

It's like the "Good Men Project", where they talk about male issues and then the recommendation to fixing them is to get women involved, sit down, and listen to them.

Fuck that noise, how about we do some real shit like changing discriminatory legislature, allocating more resources for helping homeless and abused men, and admitting that men CAN be raped, or assaulted by women. Shit, there are real changes we could be making, but instead we get spoonfed that shit?

Well, I'm going to stop here. That good men project site really, really, really pisses me off. At least AVFM isn't so condescending.

Edit: Hopefully, the MRM can learn from the mistakes of Feminists and not be represented by dogmatic extremists. But I honestly fear it's getting less and less likely, probably it'll be the people who feel strongest about it first, it will gain traction, moderates will come in, some changes will be made, most moderates will drop out except for lip service as it's no longer as relevant of an issue, and it'll just be the crazies left behind. So, pretty much the same way Feminism went.

It's a problem with people and ideologies.

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The argument is about which aspects of gender we're talking about and how much of it can be explained by biology rather than society.

I can't speak for MRAs, but I persoanlly think gender differentiation and gender roles are more of a result of biology, rather than society. As society evolves, the way the different sexes express themselves evolves as well. But there's always a difference, men and women are different, you seem to accept this to some degree.

The way the OP is phrased like it is. Is because many things that feminists say is society's fault, might actually be more explained by biology, or AT LEAST personal choice.

For example, some feminists might say that a woman's choice to be a stay at home wife/mother is "internalized misogyny", a result of society and false gender roles. But it's this woman's natural ability to nurture children that makes her PREDISPOSED to taking on those gender roles. Men are PREDISPOSED to doing physically demanding jobs and competitiveness is a good motivator among these groups.

No one is saying that women can't be strong, no one is saying guys shouldn't take care of children. The MRM and feminism are in agreement that society should allow for those who don't fit the paradigm.

But most gender roles will always be gendered, due to differing biology between the sexes.

[–]Nerites 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

The way the OP is phrased like it is. Is because many things that feminists say is society's fault, might actually be more explained by biology, or AT LEAST personal choice.

Oh, so people are only allowed to generalize feminism when you agree with them.

For example, some feminists might say that a woman's choice to be a stay at home wife/mother is "internalized misogyny", a result of society and false gender roles.

And some feminists would say that a woman's choice to be a stay at home wife/mother is made more valuable by the fact that she has a choice at all.

But it's this woman's natural ability to nurture children that makes her PREDISPOSED to taking on those gender roles.

Wait, but what about all those great single fathers who get child custody taken away from them because people agree with you on this point?

The MRM and feminism are in agreement that society should allow for those who don't fit the paradigm.

But most gender roles will always be gendered, due to differing biology between the sexes.

Keeping roles gendered makes life harder for people who don't fit the paradigm! Child custody law is one example of this, and the gender disparity in leadership positions and STEM occupations is another. There are historical reasons for gender roles existing, but we society and technology has brought us to a point where we don't need those anymore! Why keep around something that does so much harm to so many people?

No one is saying that women can't be strong, no one is saying guys shouldn't take care of children.

You say this as if affirming a certain gender for a certain role does not automatically marginalize the opposite gender for that role.

As for biological influences on gender expression, I'm of the opinion that individual differences combined with social conditioning are more significant whatever effects a person's assigned sex may have.

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And you don't seem to understand that gender expression is primarily influenced by your biological sex.

primarily

I mean, I understand why you think this way, but I've really yet to see proof that most women are feminine because they're ~born that way~ rather than because society sets feminine ideals for women.

Either way, it's important to acknowledge that gender expression can manifest contrary to gender identity or assigned sex, and to create an environment that fosters expression as a measure of individuality, not as a measure of gender.

Men and women alike face societal pressures to behave a certain way. Do you really think those pressures are necessary?

I don't understand why MRAs would be particularly attached to gender essentialism, since it's basically the source of the ideology that says "all men are rapists!" and "men are bad at caring for children!.

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[–]Nerites1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I just don't see the point in this 'acknowledgement' that you seem to value so highly! If these trends are truly based in natural inclinations, then they will perpetuate themselves regardless of whether or not you say "hey this sure is a thing that happens". However, if they are NOT based in natural inclinations, then the effect of making that acknowledgement is to perpetuate archaic stereotypes. Which would be fine, because one person citing a statistic isn't actually going to make a big difference on everyone's personal preferences! However, you have to consider that we live in a culture that not only 'acknowledges' these trends, but enforces them, and makes life harder for anyone who tries to shake them! Because of this, you're not presenting any new info in your 'acknowledgements'- rather, you're looking at a movement that says "IT'S OKAY TO STEP OUT OF THE BOX!", and saying, "but actually most people fall into that box", which at best, seems like an irrelevant statement of fact, and at worst, sounds like you're implying "no, you actually shouldn't step out of the box".

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If these trends are truly based in natural inclinations, then they will perpetuate themselves regardless of whether or not you say "hey this sure is a thing that happens"

Exactly.

makes life harder for anyone who tries to shake them!

Don't talk to me like I don't support women's right's... I'm probably more "progressive" than you.

I'm a stay at home dad caring for a baby girl. Maybe somewhere there's some vague notion that I can't care for a baby from certain morons out there. But on the internet, among me and my wife's friends and family, we're basically getting praised for making it work so well.

What you don't understand is that we've been shunning these "archaic stereotypes" for decades now... IF ANYTHING we're seeing more pressure on women to work than men. This is why women are earning more college degrees than men at a 60/40 ratio. And among working people with degrees... more of them are women.

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/05/stunning-college-degree-gap-women-have-earned-almost-10-million-more-college-degrees-than-men-since-1982/

It's "archaic" to continue focusing on a battle that's already been won. Women have the choice to do whatever they work hard enough to earn. Women make up 51% of the voting body, so when the right woman come's along, hopefully not Hillary Clinton as she's a corporation shill and of course not a republican like Sarah Palin, she will become president. It will probably be Elizabeth Warren because of the typical, "revolutionary but within the system" type rhetoric that Obama used.

Anyway, my position is to not forsake the role of stay at home parents and caretakers just to get two taxhorses out of households while the system raises the children.

Consider Sweden, arguably one of the most feminist nations on the planet, still has strong gender divides between professions like nursing, engineering, childcare, trashcollector... in fact, the gender divide has widened in some of these after years of closing.

Now that women have choice, I believe more in strengthening typically female roles instead of pressuring women to move into typically male roles. Essentially, women are getting less happy as they've been forced into bread winning situations... To me, this says that the pressure has been on women to do things they don't want to do more than men.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w14969

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/high-octane-women/201109/survey-reveals-unhappy-person-profile-shes-42-single-and-working

I'm the type of feminist who wants to make women happy, not brainwash households into giving more money to the military industrial complex and letting other people raise your children.

[–]Nerites1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ohh that's what you think is happening! Well I'm happy to say that there's a newer movement within feminism that is combating the vilification of traditional femininity, and working in support of women's choices, regardless of whether or not they subvert gender norms. Okay, I can't be certain that it's 'new', but it sure seems that way since all the feminists at my college subscribe to this version of feminism, a version which seems to contradict the perception of feminism that you hold.

As for the battle being 'won', it sure as hell isn't! Women are still underrepresented and underestimated in STEM fields thanks to those stereotypes, regardless of their actual qualifications or performance. Even though it's out of style to put biased beliefs into words, people still hold them, those biases are worth correcting!

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well I'm happy to say that there's a newer movement within feminism that is combating the vilification of traditional femininity....

Oh dear lord, everyone and their division conducive "movements"... No, I don't have to call myself a feminist because my views might vaguely be described by some certain feminist sect (out of dozens of different sects). That's like saying " oh you believe in a notion of the collective energy of the universe and you think it's wrong to kill and steal? You must be a Christian!"

No, I'm a human, there's about 7,000,000,000 of us and we all have different beliefs and ideologies. Instead of trying to label me and pigeon hole me into an ideology so you can more easily come to terms with the notion that there's someone who thinks differently from you...

Okay, I can't be certain that it's 'new', but it sure seems that way since all the feminists at my college subscribe to this version of feminism, a version which seems to contradict the perception of feminism that you hold.

You can't simultaneously try and erase gender roles while also trying to strengthen certain gender roles. It's starting to sound like you don't really know what you believe and you're just morphing your definition of feminism and saying that's what the entire movement is about. Typical for a feminist.

Yeah, you've contradicted yourself a few times now.... I swear it really is like debating a religious ideologue...

Even though it's out of style to put biased beliefs into words, people still hold them, those biases are worth correcting!

I don't see why... if two people are exactly the same, what's wrong with hiring based on personal preference?

If these scientists (men and women mind you) base their bias on previous experiences working with women, than that's understandable to me. Making decisions based on ideologies that aren't based on their own experiences isn't really a scientist's style.

It's about proving yourself despite the trend. And if you're ANOTHER college feminist talking about how there should be more women in stem and you aren't in stem, you're not fighting the trend sister.

[–]Nerites1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Instead of trying to label me and pigeon hole me into an ideology so you can more easily come to terms with the notion that there's someone who thinks differently from you...

Getting a bit presumptuous there! All I'm saying is that there are feminists who don't fit your generalization of feminism. As for why I identify as feminist, it's 'cause I'm sick to hell of everyone acting like feminism is a bad word and a bad movement made for irrational female-supremacists (and thus dismissing the idea that women's causes are worth fighting for). I don the label to reclaim it.

You can't simultaneously try and erase gender roles while also trying to strengthen certain gender roles.

You're right, it's not about strengthening gender roles, it's about giving women the validation and freedom to choose. And I believe in order to enable free choice, we MUST remove pressures to conform to a certain mold- we MUST remove gender roles. Strictly natural gender trends will persist regardless of whether you enforce them, so just remove the enforcement.

I'm not contradicting myself; my beliefs are set in stone. We're just communicating past each other, and while I follow you, I don't think you're following me.

If these scientists (men and women mind you) base their bias on previous experiences working with women, than that's understandable to me.

You're making an assumption here that this bias is based on previous experiences common to all scientists tested, rather than biases instilled by a culture that the scientists have in common.

It's about proving yourself despite the trend.

So you're saying you're okay with women having to work harder than men, despite equal qualification, in order to get the same reward?

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All I'm saying is that there are feminists who don't fit your generalization of feminism.

LOL! You literally said "all the feminists at my college subscribe to this version of feminism"...

Of course there aren't feminists that match the general feminist stereotype.... there's literally dozens of sects that differ and contradict eachother.... You're not breaking that stereotype though, most feminists I talk to on reddit fit the stereotype...

You're right, it's not about strengthening gender roles, it's about giving women the validation and freedom to choose.

Which they already have the power to do...

And I believe in order to enable free choice, we MUST remove pressures to conform to a certain mold- we MUST remove gender roles.

Men and women are different, the gender roles will always be there, because men and women are predisposed to certain fields.

You say feminism is about equal opportunity but then you imply it's about equal outcome. You can't have both.

Strictly natural gender trends will persist regardless of whether you enforce them, so just remove the enforcement.

Perceived societal pressure resulting from trends that MIGHT have something to do with sexual dimorphism isn't "enforcement". Get real sister, stop with the bullshit rhetoric desperately trying to attain that emotional appeal. Words have real meaning, don't use hyperbole...

I'm not contradicting myself; my beliefs are set in stone.

You mean you're an idealogue... my beliefs adapt as I come across new information and convincing arguments.

I don't think you're following me.

Because you keep insisting that there's no biological basis for why certain roles and professions appeal to certain genders, you don't think that years of continuous estrogen and testosterone pumping through our system might have an effect on who we are.

You're making an assumption here that this bias is based on previous experiences common to all scientists tested, rather than biases instilled by a culture that the scientists have in common.

That's not how scientists do things....

So you're saying you're okay with women having to work harder than men, despite equal qualification, in order to get the same reward?

I'm not saying I'm ok with it, I'm saying that in order to get hired it's better to to have qualifications over your rivals.... instead of just being equal to them...

My wife is a native American,, and she gets pissed when she feels like she's getting special treatment in her uni, I tell her to take advantage of it, but people who are actually proud of and want to advance their knowledge do so for more complex reasons than "rewards".

[–]Nerites1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You literally said "all the feminists at my college subscribe to this version of feminism"...

Whoops, shame on me for getting lazy about my words. All the feminists that I've -met- are pro-femininity, and this clearly breaks your generalization of feminism.

You're not breaking that stereotype though, most feminists I talk to on reddit fit the stereotype...

You say that like I have something to prove to you!

but then you imply it's about equal outcome.

I really don't! Once again, when I speak of gender roles, I'm speaking of outside pressures influencing people towards a certain archetype, whether or not it goes against their natural inclination. You seem to be speaking of pure stats, how many women do what- You're the one focusing on the 'outcome'.

Get real sister, stop with the bullshit rhetoric desperately trying to attain that emotional appeal. Words have real meaning, don't use hyperbole...

What does that even mean? I'm not striving for emotional appeal, you're the one saying 'LOL!' and 'bullshit' and 'Get real sister'- way to assume I'm a girl, by the way!

Perceived societal pressure resulting from trends that MIGHT have something to do with sexual dimorphism isn't "enforcement".

Then I'm not talking about "perceived societal blahblahblah". The enforcement is there (why don't you clean your room? what kind of a girl are you?), and just because you don't realize it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You mean you're an idealogue... my beliefs adapt as I come across new information and convincing arguments.

I've gotten a lot of new info from this discussion with you and many others, and my outlook has become more refined as a result, but the main ideals- that you shouldn't force people to behave a certain way because of their genitals- are constant, and I really don't think "people should be treated like people" is a dangerous constant to have.

Because you keep insisting that there's no biological basis for why certain roles and professions appeal to certain genders, you don't think that years of continuous estrogen and testosterone pumping through our system might have an effect on who we are.

Another miscommunication, as evidenced by your perception of my beliefs being entirely contrary to my actual beliefs. See, when I say that "cultural gender norms are unnecessary and harmful!" you hear "biology isn't real and hormones have no effect!", when what I mean is "stop the culturally-enforced stereotypes and let people do what they want!"

That's not how scientists do things....

Because having the title 'scientist' makes you a robot incapable of subconscious bias and Being Wrong Ever.

I'm not saying I'm ok with it, I'm saying that in order to get hired it's better to to have qualifications over your rivals.... instead of just being equal to them...

So you're okay with sex (something that the individual has limited control over) basically acting as a 'qualification'?

My wife is a native American,, and she gets pissed when she feels like she's getting special treatment in her uni, I tell her to take advantage of it, but people who are actually proud of and want to advance their knowledge do so for more complex reasons than "rewards".

Your wife sounds like a cool person! I didn't mean to imply that people only do things for 'reward', just that in a just system, equally qualified people will receive equal compensation for their qualifications.

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You try to subvert whatever you want. AAA gaming will always be a male dominated market. STEM will always Have more men than women.

There's actually a fairly equal amount of people who play video games in one form or another. It's the type of game and gaming habits themselves that are gendered.

AAA shooters will always be considered guy things simply because guys spend their money on them, while dance central, tetris and farmville are more girl oriented games... they like quick puzzle stuff to pass the time rather than games where you spend hours to get another gun. Just another example of people mistaking gender difference for social factors.

You don't have to agree with me, you can think whatever you want because this is my last comment here;

Guys tend to work with things, girls tend to work with people. I realize there's exceptions and you may yet again perceive this simple observation for a "stereotype", but it's something you might come to understand as you get older and see more of the world.

Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, and if we have to deny reality to "subvert" something that isn't even wrong. Then fuck that, I will never become an ideologue.

Have a good night, buddy.

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I am really not getting how your distinction between gender identity and expression allows you to justify your belief that gender behavior is not primarily due to biology, especially in the light of people like david reimer.

Maybe try to rephrase it in a clearer way?

The overriding message should be "do what you want!" not "do what girls/boys do!"

Yea, sure. The problem arises when people assume any gender difference in behavior is due to people being told the second, which leads to them trying to force them to do things other than what boys and girls typically want to do.

I think generally people are being told the first message, and the few remaining places where gender is socially enforced are unavoidable consequences of having the majority of people like one thing. For example, if the majority of women like someone who earns a lot men have to earn a lot if they want a lot of female attention. Also, people unavoidable will generalize from experience to some degree. I think these things are the effects of people's free choices, rather than the primary reason people choose in a particular way.

[–]Nerites 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

My bad, I just assumed people would know what I meant by gender expression. What I mean by gender expression is- how long do you wear your hair? How tight do you wear your clothes? Do you wear make-up? How do (or don't) you conform to gender norms?

For example, a 'butch' lesbian has a female gender identity, but expresses gender in a way that would traditionally be seen as masculine. Intentional 'traps' have male gender identity, but an almost entirely female gender expression.

And here is the obligatory acknowledgement that gender expression, like gender identity and sexuality, exists on a spectrum and should not be dichotimized as strictly male/female.

Also, people unavoidable will generalize from experience to some degree. I think these things are the effects of people's free choices, rather than the primary reason people choose in a particular way.

I think that those generalizations play a bigger role than a lot of people realize in how people choose, and I think it's possible to make generalizations without incorporating them into our culture to a degree that affects people negatively.

[–]themountaingoat0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't really see the point in dividing things up into gender and genedder expression. It just seems to muddy the waters.

What determines if a trait is a gender trait or not a gender trait? It seems to me that what you are really just referring to is behavior.

And of course behavior is not solely determined by biology, it is determined jointly by biology and the situations we find ourselves in.

And here is the obligatory acknowledgement that gender expression, like gender identity and sexuality, exists on a spectrum and should not be dichotimized as strictly male/female.

To me it seems like you have to decide strictly what are "male" and "female" traits in order for this whole spectrum to even exist. I have problems with that, because I think the only thing that can determine what traits are male or female is whether men and women typically display them, there isn't any more to it than that.

To me, the whole concept seems like it is just dressing up really commonplace things in jargon in order to confuse the issue and allow people to pretend things about the sexes that aren't really true. But perhaps you will be able to answer me questions in a way that will clarify things.

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Recent studies highlight a long-held suspicion about the brains of males and females. They're not the same. So how does the brain of a female look and function differently from a male's brain, and what accounts for these differences?

Disparities Start Early in Life

Scientists now know that sex hormones begin to exert their influence during development of the fetus. A recent study by Israeli researchers that examined male and female brains found distinct differences in the developing fetus at just 26 weeks of pregnancy. The disparities could be seen when using an ultrasound scanner. The corpus callosum -- the bridge of nerve tissue that connects the right and left sides of the brain -- had a thicker measurement in female fetuses than in male fetuses.

Observations of adult brains show that this area may remain stronger in females. "Females seem to have language functioning in both sides of the brain," says Martha Bridge Denckla, PhD, a research scientist at Kennedy Krieger Institute.

Consider these recent findings. Researchers, using brain imaging technology that captures blood flow to "working" parts of the brain, analyzed how men and women process language. All subjects listened to a novel. When males listened, only the left hemisphere of their brains was activated. The brains of female subjects, however, showed activity on both the left and right hemispheres.

This activity across both hemispheres of the brain may result in the strong language skills typically displayed by females. "If there's more area dedicated to a set of skills, it follows that the skills will be more refined," says David Geary, PhD, professor of psychological sciences at the University of Missouri.

As a whole, girls outperform boys in the use of language and fine motor skills until puberty, notes Denckla. Boys also fall prey to learning disabilities more frequently than girls. "Clinics see a preponderance of boys with dyslexia," Denckla tells WebMD. ADHD also strikes more boys than girls. The symptoms displayed by girls and boys with ADHD differ, too. Girls with ADHD usually exhibit inattention, while affected boys are prone to lack of impulse control. But not all differences favor girls.

Boys generally demonstrate superiority over female peers in areas of the brain involved in math and geometry. These areas of the brain mature about four years earlier in boys than in girls, according to a recent study that measured brain development in more than 500 children. Researchers concluded that when it comes to math, the brain of a 12-year-old girl resembles that of an 8-year-old boy. Conversely, the same researchers found that areas of the brain involved in language and fine motor skills (such as handwriting) mature about six years earlier in girls than in boys

[–]Nerites0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Zeddikus2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My guess on the authors bit is that half of the readership is male, and thus, seeing that women overwhelming write romance/interpersonal relationship/self help and communicative, whereas men write spy/adventure/science fiction/fantasy and some romance... The majority of men and women like the type of things men write about, whereas most men do not like what women write about. Thus, it is more about audience.

As to journalism, it breaks down the same as all industries that require a lot of travel/hours away from family. When given the choice, women overwhelmingly look at the lifestyle such a job requires and find that lifestyle unattractive. It is not that women can't or wouldn't do just as well or better even (Plenty of the top journalists in the US are women) but given a choice of a career that consumes all of your time or a career that allows much more flexible free time, they choose the path that is far healthier.

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Actually, Gender is almost always analogous to biology due to a great many factors including androgens like testosterone and estrogen (both of which have profound behavioral effects)

Study after study shows that there are biological differences in the brains of transsexuals just like there's differences between cis men and women and differences between gay and straight people.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/imp/jcs/2008/00000015/00000001/art00001?token=003d1297496720297d7634777023792f7a417b59386b6d3f4e4b253e25e4d

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.UnFG-_lwp8E

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16140461

http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811909003176

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16870186

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11826131

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289

I'm not saying that people aren't unique or that there isn't a whole spectrum of different types of people, but the connection between biology and gender is undeniable, ESPECIALLY when we consider that every trans* person is basically a case study against the argument that gender is a social construct.

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Yes, the environment plays a role in how the different genders express themselves. I'm not arguing against this. I'm arguing that the reason the genders express themselves differently is because of biological factors.

Can you admit there's obvious evidence that men and women exhibit differing trends in psychology and behavior? Can you admit that this difference might PARTLY be the result of biological factors, most notably, testosterone and estrogen?

In trans* people, not all biological aspects that determine sex are in agreement. Whether it's the genitalia, the chromosomes, the hormones, or the way the brain is wired (at least the aspects influenced by prenatal androgen exposure), something is out of sync.

If you think that the brain is that malleable that it can experience gender dysphoria despite society, your family, and often times yourself passively or actively molding it the other way, than you're crazy. Even many trans* people themselves tried to be the sex they aren't before they came to terms with their inherent gender. There's no way people would choose gender dysphoria. It's something that comes from within.

Studies suggest it's biological since societal influence is ruled out in the case of most trans* people. Where did it come from if not from either biology or societal factors? The soul?

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Secondly, the brain is not purely "hardwired"; while there are many lower functions that evolved due to specific environmental and social pressures, the brain itself is highly malleable and adaptable to both socialization and biological pressures throughout a persons life.

The claim that is being made when people say that gender is biological is that when exposed to the same stimuli male and female brains will react differently. Not that socialization and upbringing have nothing to do with how people turn out.

It is quite possible we could make men and women the same by hooking them up to machines that shock them if they display behavior typical for their gender, but this would do nothing to demonstrate that the sexes are the same. Increasingly, artificial means to make the genders similar to the above are being used.

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You don't think that evolution can have complex effects and that instead brains are somehow immune from influence of the genes that form them?

Obviously evolution can have yada yada, but where is the evidence that it has had this effect or that? That's the problem, assuming that just because it might have, it has had.

You don't think that since procreation is of prime importance to genetic survival that genes wouldn't evolve to give males an instinctual preference for physically protecting females and children, and females for nurturing children?

I think such genes might evolve, but there is no evidence that they have. And since you are so concerned with procreation, shouldn't women have evolved genes to make them protective of men? You know, the people without whom they can't procreate? That doesn't seem to have happened.Then there's the fact that in most societies throughout time it has been every man and woman for themselves, if men have genes telling us to protect the wominz we usually do a bloody good job of ignoring them! As for nurturing children, if procreation is that important shouldn't evolution "give" men a preference for nurturing children, rather than leaving it all up to the frailer sex?

If you don't think this is more than possible, or that evidence doesn't bear this out, then you need to re-evaluate your life.

Nice attempt at jumping from possible to probable (that's what more than possible is called, probable) and claiming that evidence supports your assertions while suspiciously failing to provide said evidence,but i am not that dumb. As for needing to re-evaluate my life due to the irrational blitherings of some guy on the 'net, that is the most stupid thing i have read since the last stupid thing i read.

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It doesn't do so directly, but I think it is highly likely that testosterone makes men like video games more because it is a means of faking aggression, risk taking and competition.

Like I said to someone else, not all games are competitive/aggressive/etc. (Zelda, Final Fantasy, Portal, Metal Gear Solid...), and even the ones that are have other draws (The single player campaign in CoD4 was pretty great, the characters in League of Legends are visually appealing, you can have a fulfilling WoW career without ever PvPing). What makes more sense to you, girls not gaming because overpowering waves of estrogen drive them away from competition, or because gaming communities are generally awful towards women?

In the same way women shave their legs because it is a means of looking pretty and young, a preferences which I think could be innate in women.

I think a more reasonable explanation would be that everyone wants to be loved, and appearance is a much bigger criterion for women than it is for men, in terms of deciding eligibility for finding a mate.

[–]themountaingoat 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

Like I said to someone else, not all games are competitive/aggressive/etc. (Zelda, Final Fantasy, Portal, Metal Gear Solid...), and even the ones that are have other draws (The single player campaign in CoD4 was pretty great, the characters in League of Legends are visually appealing, you can have a fulfilling WoW career without ever PvPing).

Who says competition simulation has to be against other people? Almost all of these games involve killing people or competing against them in other ways, even if they are NPC's.

Men's bodies are built to be far better at violence and other tasks like hunting than women's, so it only stands to reason that men's minds would display a matching trait.

because gaming communities are generally awful towards women?

Gaming communities are "awful" to everyone. Women just can't take it because they are treated so much better in real life.

If you have examples of this "aweful" treatment we can discuss this further.

I think a more reasonable explanation would be that everyone wants to be loved, and appearance is a much bigger criterion for women than it is for men, in terms of deciding eligibility for finding a mate.

Well why are shaved legs supposed to look good on women and not on men? There are biological reasons for what we are attracted too as well.

I think a more reasonable explanation would be that everyone wants to be loved,

I don't think there is any conscious connection between wanting to be pretty and wanting to be a hero type person and wanting to attract a mate. Even very young children display these tendencies at an age earlier than I would expect them to be consciously thinking about finding a mate.

[–]Nerites -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Who says competition simulation has to be against other people? Almost all of these games involve killing people or competing against them in other ways, even if they are NPC's.

I would argue that the puzzle/exploration/world immersion/story aspect of most of those games are more significant than the click-to-kill combat system.

If you have examples of this "aweful" treatment we can discuss this further.

First, an anecdote. My friend presents androgynously online, so she's totally fine most of the time- up until somebody begins suspecting her gender. It starts with the "are you a girl?" questions. Sometimes it doesn't proceed any further, because she doesn't answer. But god forbid she perform poorly in any way, because then, it's not just "wow you really suck at this", it's "wow girls really suck at games", sometimes accompanied with some choice selections from the arsenal of misogynistic slurs provided us by the English language.

Second, a generalization. Have you seen how people react to female streamers vs. male streamers? Or cosplayers, whatever, I'm referring to the variety of people who dare show their faces amidst a sea of anonymity. Dudes can take for granted that they'll just be seen as "another one of us", whereas girls can count on having their appearance put on trial, and being automatically judged an attention whore.

Even very young children display these tendencies at an age earlier than I would expect them to be consciously thinking about finding a mate.

What kind of toys do they have to play with? Action figures and Barbie dolls express very different ideals.

[–]SchalaZeal01 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

First, an anecdote. My friend presents androgynously online, so she's totally fine most of the time- up until somebody begins suspecting her gender. It starts with the "are you a girl?" questions. Sometimes it doesn't proceed any further, because she doesn't answer. But god forbid she perform poorly in any way, because then, it's not just "wow you really suck at this", it's "wow girls really suck at games", sometimes accompanied with some choice selections from the arsenal of misogynistic slurs provided us by the English language.

Tell your friend to stop engaging with people with less than 2 years mental age. They are EASY to avoid.

I have NEVER had the issue. Why? I don't hang around super immature players. I avoid them like the plague. You don't HAVE to hang around "asl, wanna cyber??" trolls to play games online.

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on top of the generic hate ("gay talk", as you say) from people who aren't aware of her sex.

You must mean instead. Because the amount of hate is the same.

No one hates them more BECAUSE they are women. I would know, I play games (well, a game at once), all my awake time. Got no problem at all. I only play with people who have a brain screwed on, and only attempt to engage with trolls if I feel like having a shouting match or venting. It's very easy to avoid them.

And get that, the trolls would easily find out reason to hate me:

I'm trans, I'm non-conforming enough to possibly be noticed, I'm geeky, I'm somewhat nerdy (because being aspie), I'm aspie, I'm really bad (and uninterested) at social stuff, I hate elitism, I'm extremely leftist, I'm for true social justice not "I got mine, screw you" ism.

All reasons I could be bashed for. The one reason I tend to be bashed for is for having a very opinionated point of view about certain things (like voice chat, or the place of crafting in endgame, the using of multi-clienting, exploiting ingame "legal" mechanics for personal gains). It's almost as if I don't discuss with trolls.

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In real life, it's more the opposite though.

The 60% of girls who like princesses, the 30% of boys who do, and who can't EVER do anything about it without a sense of shame instilled in them - even in their own home playing dress-up with their sister's stash of dress-up clothes.

And the 40% of girls who are 'meh' about princesses are forced to have a super-pink super-frilly princess phase or they don't think they "qualify enough" as girls. Society is a bit too obsessive about who is what sex - kids don't care as much.

Boys have to deny any sense of expression, have shortish hair and a uniform of clothing that has very little variation. If they go against this as toddlers, little will happen to them...but they probably can't voice the preference. If they go against this at early school years, they'll be taunted, beaten and humiliated the most possible. If they go against this in adulthood, welcome to homelessness, unless they're artists able to live on their art.

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If anyone is really interested in this case, I suggest reading the book "As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl". I read the book myself and noted are few things:

1) This was not a 40 year experiment. This was at most a 14 year experiment after which David found out he had been born a boy and chose to live as one.

2) The psychologist, Dr. Money, who "treated" David and Brian Reimer was a sick idiot. He had some stupid ideas regarding gender identity including sex play between children which he thought was healthy. When I read that, it made me want to gag.

3) Even after David decided to live as a boy, Dr. Money was telling the scientific community that David has successfully transferred to a girl. These lies lead to wrong beliefs regarding intersex people.

4) There was a lot of other factors affecting David Reimer including his family, his environment, and where he was being raised. However, the worst part of this story is how much the scientific and medical community put on what is an ancedotal situation.

http://www.amazon.ca/As-Nature-Made-Him-Raised/dp/0061120561

[–]Imthere 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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I mentioned this in the original thread but this is not new and this is certainly not the only piece of evidence.

Just over a decade ago it was common practice for doctors to choose which genitalia to keep based on appearance (for babies born with both sexual organs). These children were then raised as whichever sex the doctor had arbitrarily chosen. In a great number of cases once these children hit puberty (in many cases even before that) they basically went through a gender crisis and felt the need to live as the opposite gender. This practice has ended in most western countries but it caused a lot of problems for those who experienced it.

The argument could be made that gender roles are the culprit in this case, but that doesn't explain the comfort most of us feel in our own skin regardless of society's imposed gender roles.

This is not an endorsement of rigid gender roles by any means, but certainly there are some things that are biological and not a result of the society we've built for ourselves.

[+]salehalt 12 years ago* [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

You're misinterpreting sex as gender, OP. Gender is widely agreed upon to be a social construct by sociologists, while sex is biological.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

This is showing just how closely the two are related though... in fact just about every trans* person is a case study proving as much. They're socialized as one gender for much of their lives, and despite that, they know that they identify more with the opposite gender, and hence the opposite sex. This is all due to inherent biological traits.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/imp/jcs/2008/00000015/00000001/art00001?token=003d1297496720297d7634777023792f7a417b59386b6d3f4e4b253e25e4d

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.UnFG-_lwp8E

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16140461

http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811909003176

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16870186

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11826131

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289

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[–]cypher197 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What issue would you ever declare solved based on one person's actions?

An issue related to a specific person.
An issue where an entire group is described as "necessarily X", and then a counterexample comes up. Usually when there's one counterexample, there's more.

In this case, it's being argued that gender identity is purely socially constructed. If we raised a boy as a girl, he'd effectively be, and act like, a girl.

But if someone were to be born a boy, raised as a girl, and then reject that socialization to the point of extreme mental trauma, that would be a very strong indicator that the hypothesis "gender identity is purely socially constructed" is inaccurate.

The very existence of transgender individuals, and the improvements in their mental health following some form of treatment (transitioning, etc) strongly counter-suggests that gender identity (or behavior) is purely socially constructed.

It by no means rules out social construction having an influence, it just means that it's not the only influence. Biology influences behavior, too.

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