Questions about MRA/MRM

deeryey · 2016-02-11T22:20:27+00:00

Watch Karen Straughan's video "Why do MRAs attack feminism?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2k86AaMfAY

RealitySucksGrowUp · 2016-02-11T21:06:06+00:00

Why do the majority of MRA/MRM posts on male issues focus so much on feminism instead of the issues that need to be solved?

Because feminism is the root cause of many of the issues that are trying to be solved here.

In order to solve the issue, you need to address the problem. The problem that has caused so many mens rights issues is feminism.

Think of third-wave feminism as oxygen to the fire. You can fight the flames themselves and you may be successful, or you may not be. But if you suffocate the flames by eliminating the oxygen, then the flames have 0 chance to persist.

KrisK_lvin · 2016-02-11T21:34:50+00:00

Why do the majority of MRA/MRM posts on male issues focus so much on feminism instead of the issues that need to be solved?

You seem confident that the majority of posts on this subreddit are in fact about Feminism - certainly, many of them are as it is a relevant issue, but the majority? How have you decided that it’s the majority? Have you been counting? Over what time period? What criteria are you using to decide whether or not such-and-such a post does or does not involve a criticism of Feminism?

I’m not trying to give you a hard time necessarily, I’m just trying to point out that you are asking a question which is based on an unquestioned assumption based on a perception and not actuality.

By the same token, I could very easily ask you (or someone else):

Why do the majority of Feminist posts on female issues focus so much on men instead of the issues that need to be solved?

You see how that works?

But there’s a second point, which is worthwhile understanding, and which I repeat below from an answer I gave to someone else recently who asked a very similar question:

I think there’s a point you have to remember about that particular subreddit that is fairly crucial - r/MensRights has 114,852 subscribers - OK, so what, you might think?

Well, /r/Feminism has 52,777 and /r/AskFeminists only 8,227 readers. So even combined, those two have roughly only half the number signed up to /r/MensRights.

Do you really think for a minute that that difference in any way reflects the relative popularity or the relative appeal of Feminists and MRAs?

This is not my suggesting that everyone who comes here is a troll (although there are plenty of those as well), but that it is reasonable to assume that the number of subscribers and posters here is considerably greater than people that you could actually genuinely call either an MRA or someone who is supportive of the MRM.

In other words, plenty of posters come here specifically to vent about Feminism because they think this is the place to do that - which in turn encourages others to do the same and so the cycle continues.

That said, there are absolutely ‘flash points’ if you like between Feminism and the MRM and so those members who are more committed do absolutely make frequent and cogently argued points against it (as opposed to just outbursts of frustration and anger), but this should not confuse someone into thinking that issues concerning e.g. divorce, child custody, suicide, employment practices amongst many other issues are not just as if not more of a concern to the core members of this subreddit.

azazelcrowley · 2016-02-11T22:52:33+00:00

How about this for a start:

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf

It's a hate movement, and that's why we oppose it. There's lots of reasons why, ideologicallly, the feminist lens predisposes someone toward acting very sexist. It'd take a long time to explain why. But here is one of the results of the feminist lens, and they're pretty much all like that when men are targetted.

You've also got college kangaroo courts, the demonization of mens sexuality, derailing and suppression of discussing mens issues, rampant gynocentrism, consistent double standards and hypocrisy, etc.

cozmickid80 · 2016-02-11T21:57:55+00:00

You are correct that many issues facing men and boys existed before feminism, because feminism is really best described as gynocentrism on steroids, the result of old attitudes meant to protect and focus on women, even if it only truly infantilizes them. That is more complex than I am going to go into. But to give you an example as to why feminism is often the target of the mrm:

The organization NOW has, for years, aggressively fought men's and father's rights groups attempts to gain equal custody of children as the default standard. They do so by alleging this will be dangerous to women, and fight tooth and nail not only to rob men of equal access to their own children, but to label equal access as an attack on women. This is a zero sum strategy that champions women and demonizes men.

To fix or even address most issues, the mrm must often fight or discredit the feminist ideology that is the status quo.

2016-02-11T22:11:32+00:00

I completely understand the need for a space for men (and women) to discuss issues that pertain to men

Women don't.

Every single time men try to find venues to talk about their problems, women shut it down. Usually very vocally, very angrily, and with lots of violence and swear words and words like "patriarchy", "pig" and "rape culture".

I understand why feminism may not appeal or seem to offer a safe space for men to have these conversations.

Men have NO place in feminism. Not one.

As well, that there are systems and situations that work against men in our current society.

Because of? (drum roll please) feminists.

192873982 · 2016-02-12T01:04:52+00:00

The MRA is about mens rights, that one should be obvious.

We can divide mens disadvantages into the categories legal and societal, of couse the legal one is more important here, but societal disadvantages are also a topic here.

So what are some legal issues? And how does feminism oppose the solution of these issues?

1) Fathers rights

The fathers are usually at the mercy of the mother, when it comes to his own children. In case of a divorce, she gets the children. This means men can't file a divorce without a high risk of losing access to their children. This is an unfair dependency. Also when divorced, women get child support and alimony without any rights in return. Alimony is only fair for a short time for her to find a job, and child support is only fair if it's actually his child and he has access to the child (shared parenting). All together, this is basically slavery and feminism has pushed for it. The only way to avoid this slavery for sure is to not get married and not have sex with a woman. But many men do want to have a family, because it can also be beautiful. So we want fairness. Marriage should be a win-win-situation for the spouses, not only a win for the woman.

2) Double standards

Women are allowed to wear any mens clothes without much judgement, but men are not. Many men are okay with that, but they are not okay with feminists claiming that this somehow oppresses women, because it clearly doesn't. Also a woman beating a man is perceived as funny, while a man beating a woman is perceived as worse than Hitler. Also men are shown in the media as idiots (especially white men), while the same portrayal of women would cause outrage.

3) Criminalization of men

Some feminists claim all men are potential rapists and pedophiles, that should be locked up. Also domestic violence is seen as a crime comitted by men against women, despite the fact that statistics proves otherwise.

4) Reproductive rights

Women have a multitude of methods for contraception, while men have basically two, condoms and vasectomy. When a woman gets pregnant, she has the morning-after pill. If she missed the deadline for that, she has the option to have an abortion. If she decides to give birth, but doesn't want the child, she can anonymously get rid of it, letting the community pay for her child. She can even non-anonymously give it up for adoption and doesn't have to pay anything. And even if she keeps the child, she can in 90% of the cases force a man to pay child support. When someone has the opinion that women shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion, because "she did have sex, she should face the consequences", a person is seen as misogynic and outright evil. When women say basically the same thing to men ("shouldn't have had sex if he didn't want a child"), it's normal. There are even extreme (but rare) cases, where male minors were raped by women and later were forced to pay child support.

5) False accusations

Innocent until proven guilty has been challenged by feminist organisations. Because of this shit, some young intelligent men have been kicked out of universities.

6) Women-only programs by the government, funded by taxpayers

Homeless shelter for women only, battered women shelter, and so on all pushed by feminists and all lacking an appropriate amount of equivalents for men. When the MRA demands such programs for men, womens organisations (feminists) oppose it with the argument that it would use up money that could be "better" used for womens programs...

7) Boys education

Feminist organisations have pushed to change the whole education system in favour of girls. Also because of the criminalization of men, the percentage of male teacher has dropped to an alarmingly low number. This, together with the rise of single mothers, has caused that many boys today grow up without any access to a male person to look up to. Also note that typical male behaviour is increasingly seen as bad, which means the school actually tries to indoctrinate boys to adapt a life style that makes them unhappy in the long term.

Even when I didn't write it for all cases, most often it was feminists who fought against men getting fairness, and in some cases they fought even for the implementation of more unfairness against men. I haven't included links to examples, but it should be easy to find all that.

hmlaasanen · 2016-02-11T21:16:52+00:00

"Why do the majority of MRA/MRM posts on male issues focus so much on feminism instead of the issues that need to be solved?"

Here are some reasons from long time men's equality activist in Finland....

I have written multiple times about every men's issue there is. I have been in media etc. Nothing happens. Men's issues are not important for the power elite or for the average men. So I criticize feminists of their weekly doings instead of repeating myself with men's issues over and over again.
If you are a blogger, you want to write about something current. And most of time current topics are produced by feminists, because they have all the power in the media and in the equality administration. So the only possibility is to be reactive to the feminist propaganda.
Feminist have all the power in the field of equality - at least here in Finland. The only possibility is to attack that hegemony with writings and to correct their propaganda. Should I just stay silent and let feminist lie and manipulate without interruption?

Juan_Golt · 2016-02-12T02:11:01+00:00

Why do the majority of MRA/MRM posts on male issues focus so much on feminism instead of the issues that need to be solved?

There are three general reasons you will see opposition to feminism here:

Direct causes. Many of the issues men face are supported by feminist advocacy. Specifically issues surrounding divorce, child custody, and domestic violence. These are direct reasons to challenge certain areas of feminism because policies driven by feminists harm men. Feminists continue to oppose shared parenting, while pushing gendered domestic violence programs.
Defensive positions. Feminism often creates false narratives about the state of the world (currently and historically). Many "problematic gendered issues" have been created whole cloth. The wage gap, campus rape culture, workplace violence, etc... We challenge the scope of these issues because they often have proposed solutions that would create another direct issue for men.
Finally we often must respond to people who do not believe men's groups have a right to exist. Feminists will organize in groups to shut down talks by Warren Farrel and Janice Fiamengo. Even KC Johnson at the George Washington forum.

In any political/social/cultural group, pay attention to what policies and doctrines they push for; Not merely what they claim as their noble values. None of us has a problem with the idea of equality, simply feminism's implementation of it is flawed.

blueXcat · 2016-02-12T09:17:38+00:00

I'm a woman anti feminist mra.

I have a problem with feminism because every time something comes up about men, they go to a witch hunt to keep the monopole of victim hood.

Like when they tried to shut down a men's shelter in Toronto.

In my social work class on sex and gender, my feminist professor was not only biased with the material she provided, but also wouldn't talk about men issues. At all. Even said that shared custody is anti-women.

I'm tired of the victimhood feminism only associate with women

AlwaysABride · 2016-02-11T21:34:08+00:00

For the same reason the 1960's civil rights movement spent so much energy and effort dismissing, denigrating and outright attacking the KKK.

Tedesche · 2016-02-12T01:29:55+00:00

I think the answer to your question might be to consider what it's like to fight for men's rights in this country, and who your primary opponents constantly wind up being.

I don't know if you would agree or not, but most MRAs are very aware of the ways in which feminists actively block, dismiss, and disparage people who advocate for men's rights. A lot of moderate feminists voice support for men's issues, but don't really spend that much time on them. Then there are the less-moderate ones who actively oppose any attention being given to them.

Then there's the fact that a lot of MRAs are men who grew up as boys in an educational and social environment in which they were promised by feminists that feminism was about men's rights too, even as they were being demonized by feminist rhetoric on fairly regular basis. Feminists have not taken responsibility for the ways in which many (but not all) in their movement have gone too far and engaged in actual sexism against men (misandry).

Again, I think it's going to take you doing a bit of empathy work here for you to really understand why antifeminism is so prevalent in the MRM. Feminism has mistreated men for decades, and the MRM is largely composed of men who are sick of it.

Also, your perception that the majority of posts here are about antifeminism is, I think, a bias on your part. Take a look again and see how many posts are actually about men's issues, regardless of whether or not they mention feminist opposition. Most of the posts I see are legitimately about men's issues, but they're often about the state of those issues in society, which feminists often have either a direct or indirect part in diminishing. Criticism of feminism is, in many ways, unavoidable when discussing men's issues, because sooner or later you're going to encounter feminist criticism of/opposition to said issues being addressed.

Remember that the suffragettes were reviled in society initially and consider what that means about the MRM. The suffragettes bucked the status quo, and they encountered strong resistance from societal institutions of the time. In the MRM's case, feminism is the establishment, and feminists are acting exactly like those who opposed the suffragettes all those years ago. This is about power and societal influence, and feminists do not want to share.

omegaphallic · 2016-02-12T03:07:40+00:00

Feminsm isn't the only issue I attack, I have pushed back against Neo Liberalism, I have pushed back against general corruption, I have pushed back agianst Socons, I have even pushed back against fellow MRAs when I think they're in the wrong. So feminism is a major focus yes, but I'm not exclusive.

These issues are directly caused or supported by feminism.

Unequality in the Courts. Unequality in dealing with forgiegn aid money and support. Male Disposiblity Devaluing Fathers False Rape Culture/Witch Hunting Wage Gap Mythology Anti Male Discrimination in the work place Female Qoutas, which invovles ignoring merit Acting as a Cancer in the leftwing politics Poisoning the Education System with lies and poor research Censorship

Things that are not feminisms fault, but which feminism seems to ignore or defend.

Male Suicide Rates (okay some things feminists support contributes to that, but they're far from the only source.) Military Slavery (can't blame feminism for that one, with the exception of the white feather campaign) Male Homelessness (feminists like to ignore the implication of male disposaliblity that this shows, but its mostly the fault of the rightwing neoliberals)

So yes sometimes the other players and causes get ignored, but the MRM issues that are less influence by feminists are in the minority.

v573v · 2016-02-12T08:29:55+00:00

rather than discuss the actual issues at hand.

Interesting. Did you know that if I posted a thread like yours in the feminism sub here on reddit i'd be banned from it? Did you know that women who identify as feminists protest men's groups whenever they meet by pulling fire alarms or blocking entrances or shouting over the speakers? Are you aware that news media will hold panels about MRA but will not invite an MRA to be on the panel? Did you know that multiple student unions across the western world prohibit mens groups from forming on school campus? Did you know that there is currently a lawsuit because, when asked, a woman simply voiced her opinion on feminism and her booth was removed from a pop culture convention? Isn't mansplaining just an attempt to silence an opposing view? Do feminists hold the view that feminist theory is sacrosanct and therefor not open to criticism and isn't that why you are here complaining that we are too critical of feminism?

Discussion? It would seem that the last thing you folks want is a discussion and you can't see that any of the above things are a problem?

Arby01 · 2016-02-12T19:27:12+00:00

However, I keep running into an issue over and over and that issue is the rampant antifeminism in the Mens Rights area.

Feminist opposition to shared parenting.
Feminist opposition to men's shelters for domestic abuse.
Feminist opposition to lectures about the problems for men and boys.
Feminist pressure to increase female enrollment in university when women are already a majority
Feminist pressure to remove due process rights from men accused of sexual assault.
Feminist social science garbage studies that "prove" men are everything that's wrong in the world.
etc.
etc.
etc.

People aren't "anti-feminist", they are "Anti-what feminists actually do in the world". Since what feminists actually do in the world cause direct harm to men and boys, well, it seems like being anti-what feminists do is pretty necessary.

iongantas · 2016-02-14T03:53:12+00:00

Because feminists are actively opposing solutions to those problems.

el_chief · 2016-02-11T23:30:37+00:00

Feminism is the enemy. I want it destroyed. Its leaders jailed for hate crimes. Your entire world view is flawed. You must be depressed.

TheDude41 · 2016-02-12T04:19:44+00:00

This question has been asked here, and answered, like a thousand times.

PotatoScallops · 2016-02-12T10:35:49+00:00

Can't you feminists fuck off and stick to TwoX?

vanitypridelust · 2016-02-12T18:44:39+00:00

Update: So this blew up a bit in the time since I was last able to look at it. Instead of responding individually I would like to respond collectively:

Get your bingo cards out boys

I came here in good faith

(crosses off martyr complex: "I was just asking questions!")

I do find MRA postings more inaccessible when they immediately devolve into feminist bashing

(crosses off tone policing (you'll attract more flies with honey!))

Especially because, prior to this discussion, I did not understand where the vitriol was coming from if both sides are genuinely seeking to improve rights for their respective factions

(crosses off assumptive close that "feminism is seeking equal rights")

I also feel the need to point out that I'm not okay with bashing on either side.

(goes to cross off tone policing, finds it crossed out already)

I think that the "feminists" who spout hatred and sexism are terrible people who shouldn't call themselves feminists

(crosses out "strawman feminist/no true feminist")

There are good feminists out there.

(crosses out "NAWALT")

BINGO!!!!!

I think the most important thing for both men and women is to unite and seek a better system for themselves as well as for each other. I am not confident in Feminism to do that, but I am not particularly confident in any group to do that as of yet

(Note: poster immediately goes back to "AskFeminists", as her goal of teaching all the troglodytes that REAL feminism is actually in men's interest, NO TRUE FEMINIST blah blah blah didn't turn you into feminists...)

Title	Questions about MRA/MRM
Author	vanitypridelust
Upvotes	14
Comments	100
Date	February 11, 2016 8:51 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/45b0fl/questions_about_mramrm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/questions-about-mramrm.956344 https://theredarchive.com/post/956344

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