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[–]lalicat213 points 12 years ago [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link
I hate this double standard. My dad went to prison when I was very young and I was raised by my mother while he was in prison. We were dirt poor and I spent most of my youth in homeless women's shelters. Eventually when I was 11 years old I stood up to my mom's new abusive boyfriend and was beaten severely. My dad was released from prison and I ran away to live with him. We were dirt poor once again because he was a felon. He had made some contacts in prison who dealt in real estate. He kept in touch and gambled everything on a business venture when I was in 9th grade. I was always being picked on for not having new clothes and couldn't identify with anyone because I didn't have any video game systems or anything the other children had. I lived off of top ramen and packaged meals as it was all we could afford. My dad's real estate business took off like a rocket and by 1999 we had gone from dirt poor to millions in a period of 3 months. It happened so quick, my dad came home drunk one night and happier than I'd ever seen him. He had stopped to buy groceries and he cooked me a full meal with steak and eggs and was so giddy. He told me we'd finally made it and we were moving out of this shit hole next week. Don't bother packing anything we're getting all new stuff. I couldn't believe it.
When I tell people that no matter how poor you were raised you can still make it they tell me it's because I'm white, because I'm a male .. because society gave me a leg up and a black man would never have that chance ... it's bullshit I saw my dad go to work every morning and save money, we had nothing for Christmas, nothing for birthdays ... he worked like a dog to pay off this massive loan he'd taken out to invest in his real estate startup and when it finally paid off we made it. My dad isn't even white, he's half Italian half Palestinian and darker than most Mexicans. I look white so people assume he is too .. it's like nothing we achieved means anything because 'privilege' ... fuck that.
[–]OtisJay 21 points22 points23 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Your story just made me do this. Your dad is a badass for sticking though life's shit, and fighting for a better life for both of you.
[–][deleted] 50 points51 points52 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
You did well because your dad made some good contacts, worked hard and got lucky. It could have easily gone south. That said, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Lucky or unlucky, I doubt any of it had to do with you being white however.
I also grew up extremely poor, and I was on my own and homeless from the ages of fourteen through eighteen. I have struggled most of my life, and while I am very far from rich, I am an engineer making a respectable living.
While it's possible I avoided institutionalization because I am white, I also never burglarized or hurt anyone to get by. I did a lot of things that weren't dignified in order to survive and stay out of the horrible local foster care system, but I didn't victimize innocent people.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I live my life by quite a few mottos because of the influence of my father. If nothing is ventured nothing is gained so I must seize the day. It's not who will let me but who will stop me. I have a hundred sayings I tell people everyday. It's better to ask forgiveness than permission ... just do it! I recently made half a million dollars on bitcoin ... life is silly that way. When you see a chance, take it. I'm very well off for someone who only earned their GED. It's the attitude more than anything that counts. My old man taught me to be that audacious asshole that asks and demands more than I was born into and I live a damn good life because of it. It's not so much about luck as taking every single opportunity that presents itself and one of them will pay off eventually. It's about persistence. Life is going to throw you a haymaker every now and then. You have to get up and say 'I'm still here, what the fuck else you got?'. My dad taught me that and that's why I will fight for a strong male influence for children until the day I die because it helps people succeed.
I'm going to run for office when I retire from the military with all of the money I've made from bitcoin. I want to be president one day, what's stopping me?
Thanks dad.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I never had a father (that I knew), only an extremely abusive mother.
I admit that I am jealous of your awesome father. I work hard to instill a sense of self reliance and self discipline in my children. I give them choice, even when it would be easier to remove choice, so that they can learn to resist impulse and make difficult decisions, because I know it will only get more difficult.
[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It has nothing to do with being white, it's basic capitalism. You risk some money, you have a chance of making a return on the investment. If you plan well, your risk is low and return is potentially high.
[–]iongantas 26 points27 points28 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think that was his point.
[–]tygamer15 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thanks for sharing that story. No matter what race you are, with a little wit, you can make it. At least in some countries
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Contact Hollywood right away, your story is heartwarming.
[–]Sagemanx 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I grew up dirt poor. My father half black half white and my mother native american back in a time when people still didn't like interracial marriages. My grandparents on my mothers side disowned her, my grandparents on my fathers side disowned him for marrying a native american. I didn't have cousins or aunts and uncles growing up because of it. The tribe I was from didn't have anything to do with my family but a tribe where I grew up took me in and adopted me as one of their own.
My parents were poor. I remember one year getting an nintendo for xmas and my parents having to return it a week later so we would have food. My father ran a lawncare business because he too was a felon, having been in prison for beating up a racist cop in a bar fight, he spent 5 years in jail because the guy wouldn't let him out of the bar and stood there berating him. He finally had enough and beat him half to death.
My father was one of the smartest men I have known. He would read two to three books a day. He read faster than anyone I've ever met. Not only was he able to read that fast but he retained almost everything he read. My mother was kind of a dead beat she took my two sisters who were lilly white and ran off to the west coast to live with her sister, leaving my father with three boys to raise. To this day no one thinks my sisters and brothers and I are related. The boy's all look Native American the girls all look white, don't have any idea why that is.
Anyways my dad busted his ass to raise us till he had a stroke when he was 52, he had to take me out of high school in the 9th grade to help run the lawncare business. My fathers girlfriend helped take care of the house and my other brothers all stayed in school and graduated. My parents had deemed I would be the one best able to succeed with out a high school diploma. One of my teachers wouldn't accept that and she made sure she stopped by my house twice a week to help tutor me and enrolled me in a night school course for my GED. Once I got that she made sure I was enrolled in the local college taking 12 to 15 credits a semester. In fact by the time by the time my siblings graduated I was only a few months from having earned my first bachelors degree.
The degree didn't do much, all my sisters graduated from college as well, so did my twin brother my older brother joined the military/ My sisters went on to successful careers and married successful men. My twin brother is a writer but barely scrapes by, only publishing anything when his cupboard is bare. My other brother managed to start his own online store and make a ton of money. I have been unemployed for the past two years working with a temp agency. Mostly because the area in PNW I'm in is extremely racist against Native Americans. There's a lot of resentment because white people tend to think that they are given a free ride and living the high life. Those white people have never been to the rez ever. The last job I had I was fired because the women all said they found me intimidating as their boss. The only thing intimidating about me is I'm not white.
In short I hear what your saying about being able to succeed even if you're not white but that's not the case for most people. My father busted his ass to make enough to pay the rent and keep us kids from starving and the only kids that have managed to succeed in the traditional corporate structure are my lilly white sisters. I love my sisters and I'm not being bigoted I have no problem with white people in fact most of my friends are white so I say that just because it's funny when people see the family together. In fact people would come up when we were teens and ask my sisters if they were alright because they thought us injuns were hanging around with some of their people. Anyway it still happens today in fact one person accused my sister of lying when she met my mother, she thought she was playing a joke, though I don't get the humor in having a parent that doesn't look like you.
Alright I'm done rambling, your story hit a nerve with me and I empathized and started rambling.
tl;dr: I grew up poor to but not looking white I know how hard it can be sometimes and how thick racism can be even in the most tolerant areas.
[–]dakru 100 points101 points102 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
The problem is that a clean, easy, black-and-white analysis of a problem like sexism or racism where you can identify a villain (men! white people!) and a victim (women! black people!) has a ton of appeal to people. This is awful not just because it's usually inaccurate as an analysis, but also because it colours your perception of everything you see. Everything has to fit into your black-and-white schema of "these people are victims, and those people are villains". You see someone in the "villains" group doing something bad? "Ah, this is exactly what I was talking about!". You see someone in the "victims" group doing something bad? "Well that's, uh, that's different because, well, it's just different". It doesn't matter if the bad thing they did was the exact same thing, "it's different" because it doesn't fit into your narrow analysis (in this case the narrow analysis that sexism is something that men do to women).
[–]borizz 47 points48 points49 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
People like groups and labels. It saves time and does not require thinking.
Unfortunately.
[–]TracyMorganFreeman 26 points27 points28 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Groups and labels are useful. Words are a means to convey ideas.
They're not infinitely useful though.
[–]sulfura321 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
Groups, labels and stereotypes are natural. It's our evolutionary brain's way of simplifying things to identify possible threats ASAP.
According to Daniel Kahneman's "Thinking, fast and slow" (and if I understood it correctly), our "fast-thinking brain" uses a ton of shortcuts to assess a situation ASAP. One of those shortcuts are stereotypes. Accuracy is not the goal, quickness is. We can't avoid it, it's like a reflex. Our "slow-thinking brain" has to correct after the fact the stereotype is made. That's usually the phase where we realise that we applied a stereotype.
What we as a society consider as bad is when we act upon the stereotype without giving the person the benefit of the doubt to prove the stereotype wrong.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The problem is that most people do not even seem to have "slow-thinking brain".
[–]borizz 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I have that book. It's a great read. Highy recommended.
[–]ramboost007 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
They think everything in the world can be put in little boxes. You can't. The whole world is a gray area.
[–]LuciferRatcliffe 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You're obviously a rape apologist.
[–]highphive 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ironically, that's the exact same cause of racism/sexism/stereotypes in the first place.
[–]iongantas 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"Analysis" is a generous word to use here.
[–]TracyMorganFreeman 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's not just appealing because it's simple. It's also appealing because it helps give legitimacy things that otherwise wouldn't have it.
[–]stemgang 31 points32 points33 points 12 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
Because the law has established 'protected classes,' and it is a crime to hurt their feelings. However you are in an unprotected class, so there are less consequences for targeting you.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
While the protected classes are technically "race" not "any race beside white people" no one follows it.
[–]stemgang 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Naw, race is not the only criterion for a protected class.
All of those so-called "protected classes" are groups that have claimed victimhood to gain special legal privileges. Every one of those classes that you DO NOT belong to sets you further behind as an "unprotected" and legally disadvantaged group member.
It is the logical result of class warfare, that we further divide ourselves into tribes, with the gov't pitting all of us against each other in a squabble for spoils.
That was a example.
[+]Grapeban -35 points-34 points-33 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Welcome to our universe traveller! Clearly you come from an entirely different world, because what you describe in no way reflects reality.
[–][deleted] 21 points22 points23 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
Says the person who is probably in one of those "protected" classes.... dare I say "privileged".
[+]Grapeban -24 points-23 points-22 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
You're right, when that person threatened to rape me for being trans, the police instantly burst in, arrested him and gave me a million pounds!
Oh, wait, no, instead I just walked away and felt scared.
[–]CanadaMRA 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
when that person threatened to rape me for being trans
I call bullshit on this being the actual sole reason somebody would rape a trans person.
[+]Grapeban -10 points-9 points-8 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I apologise for not taking the time to cross-examine the motives behind the person threatening me, perhaps next time he tries to intimidate me I'll be sure to get a more detailed picture of why exactly he hates me.
[–]CanadaMRA 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Or perhaps next time you can just say you were threatened with rape instead of adding on the assumption that it was because of a certain personality trait.
[–][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
And when I was sexually abused by my mom I was ignored because I was male and should learn to "get over it" because I want actually raped. Unlike you, I actually contacted the police, you seem to have this false notion that being a protected class means that police instantly come to protect you, and not that you are actually protected more under US law than a straight white male.
10 years later, I still have to deal with the attitude that I should just get over it.
If I was female and it was my father, do you think I would have been taken more seriously? I think so. Even with my mom, my sister's got taken more seriously than me and were given more psychological help than me.
[–]bobes_momo 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Get a lawyer and sue the district. You will win
It wouldn't bring me any peace to do that, I'll stick to therapy and building my own life, spinning my wheels to get justice wouldn't be healthy for me right now.
[+]Grapeban -9 points-8 points-7 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Unlike you, I actually contacted the police, you seem to have this false notion that being a protected class means that police instantly come to protect you
I didn't expect the police to instantly protect me, in fact I knew that the police would almost certainly not protect me, hence why I didn't go to them.
He said you were in a protected class (LGBT is a protected class in the US, not sure where you live) and your sarcastic response was that he was right (that you are part or a protected class) and because of this the police responded instantly (your irony implying that the opposite was true, that you are not a protected class and the police didn't come).
Then you clarified that that did not in fact happen, the police did not intervene.
You are still part of a protected class.
Hence why I pointed out that you have a false notion of what a protected class is if you are asserting you are somehow not in a protected class because the police didn't help you.
TBH, if you don't utilize your own personal agency to get police help, they aren't going to help you, because they can't. Agency comes hand in hand with responsibility. You aren't responsible for being threatened by some asshat on the street, but you sure as hell are responsible to yourself and every potential future victim to report the crime after it does happen. Nobody else can help you with that.
You didn't do that because you assumed the police would ignore you. So the fuck what? That's not an excuse, that's a cop-out. At least go to the police and get ignored every time rather than coming here and kvetching that the police probably wouldn't help you anyways, its' a harmful and defeatist attitude. You have NO excuse.
[–]CanadaMRA 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Do you not have anything better to do than troll a subreddit consisting of people you hate talking about ideologies you don't agree with? It's one thing to come in and offer a counter argument as discussion fodder but its another to come in and act like a whiny asshat.
Get a life.
[–]tjmburns 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Being trans really doesn't get you any kind of protection. I'm sorry, that's something that needs work, but I'm glad you're here, because feminism surely won't do anything about it.
[–]VortexCortex 20 points21 points22 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Well, I'm not saying the offended caused the offensive words, but we could teach people how to reduce their chances being offended as a preventative measure.
Teach folks not to give a fuck.
[–]TracyMorganFreeman 14 points15 points16 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Confirmed. Learned to not give a fuck in high school. Body image issues vanished overnight. Suddenly I was bullied less too.
Agency is more empowering than being coddled.
[–]LuciferRatcliffe 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Amen.
[–]Yojimara 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
r/howtonotgiveafuck
[–]asdfgasdfg312 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Yes, this, so much this. If you get offended, you're the weak one, you're the one that should fuck right off in the other direction. I'm so fucking tired of this reversed natural selection where the strong have to bend to the weak once just because they cry the hardest. If you can't handle being at the top of the food chain, why don't you go get yourself eaten.
[–]shadowed_stranger 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You've probably seen this one before but if not, enjoy. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b48_1305790944
[–]asdfgasdfg312 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I've missed that one, it was both hilarious and awfully true. I wish more people could reason like that.
[–]TheEthicalMan 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
If you get offended, you're the weak one
I'm sorry, but that's so ridiculous. That's a middle school, who-can-care-the-least standard of character and moral assessment and it's really, really stupid.
Edit: added 2 words.
[–]asdfgasdfg312 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Well go around getting offended then if you like, I couldn't care less. You're the one who has to walk around crying and feeling bad. Personally I rather not give a shit about you and feel good. It's not like your opinion affects me in the smallest possible way...
[–]PassifloraCaerulea 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
So what you're saying is caring = weakness? Sounds sociopathic, frankly. We lose our humanity and civilization if we stop taking care of the weaker among us.
[–]JakeDDrake 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
We lose our humanity and civilization if we stop taking care of the weaker among us.
I'd say that applies only to an extent. Taking care of the weaker among us, in this case, would mean preventing the "stronger" among us from saying things that would offend the weaker ones.
I feel that being too weak to live in a society that espouses all of its citizens the right to voice their potentially offensive opinion without penalty or some strange sense of recourse or reprisal is in and of itself a problem, and one that I believe lies in the realm of self-entitlement.
That't not what I said, caring about what makes you weak and not doing anything about it besides crying and try get others to do something for you, makes you weak. And it comes to a point where caring to much about something, like being offended(Which absolutely means nothing besides you feeling bad and making your own day shitty) will set you aside from evolving through the food chain. We are were we are today because of natural selection you know.
It's not like you will die if someones offends you, the only thing that will happen when someone offends you is that you will feel bad. You wont feel better if they didn't offend you, you wont loose your job or your house if someone does. Absolutely nothing besides your own loss. Frankly the offender might even feel better about it.
And since being offended is quite relative how the fuck to you expect a society to work with everyone being completely non offended all the time? And if someone would be offended by that how would you handle that in you humanitarian and civilized ways? Offer him milk and cookies until everyone else dies of old age?
[–]Alzael 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Very true. Open debate, honest discussion, and free speech become impossible the moment you start worrying about offending someone. Because at that point the most easily offended are the ones who gain all the control over the dialogue.
[–]kencabbit 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
This is somewhat simplistic, I think. Sometimes people cry sexism and racism when it's just a plain old insult. But sometimes there really is racism or sexism behind it. Telling a black person they are worthless isn't necessarily racist.
Telling a black person they are worthless based on your own prejudices against their skin colour and ethnicity, or referring to black people in general as worthless. Obviously that would be racism. I'm sure the author knows this and isn't intending to deny it. But the way this is presented makes it really easy to think otherwise.
The sexism example is more on point, I feel. I say that because people will claim it's a joke and not sexism, even if the girl is referring to all men when she says "you boys are stupid." There's a much clearer double standard in this scenario.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
But sometimes there really is racism or sexism behind it.
I think an overarching point was that sexism and racism are really just words used to make insults targeting a specific race or sex seem worse than insults which target people for other features, even though they really aren't in any rational way. It wasn't to point out that sexism and racism don't exist at all, just that they shouldn't be considered worse than other kinds of speech that is intended to hurt someone, because ideas of racism and sexism coming only from "privileged" people is in itself racist and sexist. In addition, all insults can target specific features of the person being insulted, so why are only some of the characteristics (race, sex, etc.) considered more special than other characteristics you can insult, when they have the same potential to hurt the person?
I say that because people will claim it's a joke and not sexism, even if the girl is referring to all men when she says "you boys are stupid." There's a much clearer double standard in this scenario.
Very good point, this one is more about the double standard rather than an irrational way of valuing the severity of speech, which I think made the message of the image a bit equivocal.
A more clear example: If you call a skinny white girl in grade school a "fat ugly bitch" she's going to be pretty hurt IMO. Why does it matter the gender of who said it? If this is comes from the mouth of a man is it any worse than from the mouth of a woman? Should one instance be labeled sexist and therefore worse than the other?
Telling a black person they are worthless based on your own prejudices against their skin colour and ethnicity, or referring to black people in general as worthless. Obviously that would be racism.
I think it's important to point out that people can have prejudices against their own skin color and ethnicity too, and that would make them racist as well. You are right that it's still racism.
Ex: If you call a black person in HS a "poor piece of shit" it's not a nice thing to say at all and may hurt the kid, who perhaps doesn't have much money. If this comes from the mouth of a white person is it any worse than if it comes from the mouth of a Mexican person or black person? Should one instance be labeled racist and therefore worse than the other? Even if you said "black piece of shit" is it any worse than saying "stupid piece of shit" or "poor piece of shit?"
Notice in both examples I was purposefully ambiguous, because "bitch" and "piece of shit" could be construed as sexual and racial slurs, or just insults, I intended to point out that it doesn't really matter whether or not it is racist or sexist, or who actually said the insult, they should be taken with the same gravity as other insults.
While racism, sexism, and vitriolic insults against people that didn't earn them are all wrong, I don't think anything short of a credible threat or harassment, which are already illegal, should be taken any more seriously than other kinds of speech.
TLDR: Racism and sexism exist, but racist or sexist insults shouldn't be taken more seriously under the law than other kinds of hateful insults, only things like threats or harassment should be taken more seriously.
[–]ladut -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree that threats and harassment should be taken more seriously than some off-hand insult, however I think that the social/historical context of offense against certain groups should be considered before dismissing an insult as being equal to any other.
Some insults like "ginger," or "fat ass," might be harmful and offensive, but the discrimination faced by the insultees are generally of a non-violent nature; and the people insulting are typically less invested in their belief than the next examples. To be clear, I'm not dismissing these types of offenses as being no big deal, they are. I also agree that in this example, the demographic status of the insulter should be irrelevant. The next, however, is different.
While most people who discriminate against blacks, gays, Jews, Muslims, Hispanics (in the US), etc. aren't card-carrying open racists willing to commit violence for their cause, some are. Furthermore, unlike the first example, discrimination against these groups has been institutionalized (the KKK being a perfect example), and has a long, bloody history. While discrimination can come from within a group (color hierarchy, not being radical enough a feminist, social pressure to be "black enough," or to not "cheat on your own race"), it lacks much of the historical and institutional context that discrimination from outside groups does.
Does this mean that, in all cases, if a white person says "nigger," it's worse than a black man saying it? No. But say said white person was, in fact, a card-carrying KKK member and really did believe that black people were sub-human. In that case, due to the historical prevalence of race-based violence and the insulter's deeply held beliefs, I would say that that offense is more serious (due to the plausibility of future violence and a propagation of a fundamentally violent ideology), and that the insultee has every right to be more insulted.
Effectively, it is the context and the intent of the insult that determines it's severity. Admittedly, determining the motivations of the insulter is difficult to do and insulters are often falsely accused of having intent that isn't there (and yes, white males are most often the victims of those assumptions). If a white person says "nigger," it could be that they're just making some bad joke, or it could be that they're actually a white supremacist, the latter being more severe because that person is advocating for a violent ideology, which can and does harm the insultee in more direct and tangible ways than someone calling someone else a fat ass. On the other hand, if a black person says "nigger," the second possibility is far less likely (unless that black person is Clayton Bigsby I guess). Non-discriminatory use of the insult "nigger," by any race does not have the same impact and severity as discriminatory use of the word. There certainly is something to be said about black on black racism here, but that's a topic worth discussing in full and my post is already dragging on.
TL;DR: context does matter. Who is doing the insulting and their motivations can make the difference between "Fuck you, I don't like you," and "Fuck you, you're less of a person than I."
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If we do that my tax dollars might be used to fix real problems. Then what will the professional gievance industy do?
[–]TracyMorganFreeman 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Actually help actual victims I would imagine.
[–]JoshtheAspie 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
And shrink in size by at least a factor of 10.
[–]einexile 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What gets me is that they fret so hard about someone they don't know potentially having an anxiety attack; but they are perfectly okay with attempting outright to cause breakdowns in people they do know, often for what they're fully aware was a lapse of judgment or simple ignorance.
Like badgering a kind soul to suicide?
His name was Earl Silverman.
[–]MrMudcrab 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I just really hate double standards no matter the situation..
[–]OldZippo 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It depends on the context.
If the white person is calling the black person (or vice versa) worthless because they believe they are innately worthless because of their race, it's racist.
Same goes for the gender thing. It's sexist if you believe that the entire sex is innately stupid because of the bits they were born with.
[–]ILoveHate 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Obviously the "patriarchy" is feeling the pressure and wants us all to go back to the "good old days". Keep fighting the good fight feminists! This is proof that we're winning! /s
[+]johnny_gunn -11 points-10 points-9 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Sarcasm should be banned from this subreddit.
Christ these comments are annoying.
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
[–]Hurikane211 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The realist of talk.
[–]Reddit1990 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, the label that gets applied has to do with intentions and preconceived notions.. but I do get your point. Its situational and sometimes a person isn't sexist for calling a woman stupid, etc.
I think the first one is useless without context. I could tell someone black that they're worthless, or I could tell someone black they're worthless because they're black. Racism and sexism are both motive-relevant ideas
[–]Sugarspy 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I have a friend that loves to talk about women's rights, gay rights, etc etc, but doesn't realize at all when he's being rude to his friends. Like, saying that we should be more accepting of others a sentence before saying that my opinion on a topic is wrong and I should recant. He was super abused when he was a kid, so I try to be nice, but it's fucking hard when he's being belligerent.
So I totally sympathize with the above comic. I really just want everyone to treat people, as individuals, with love and respect.
[–]Highspeed_Lowdrag 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Blame the patriarchy
[–]August-West 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A black guy can be as useless as a white guy. It's only racist if hes saying he is racist because hes black.
[–]TheEthicalMan 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The solution isn't to toss out considerations of racism and sexism. The solution is to not be racist and not be sexist, and to call it out when it occurs, in whatever direction.
[–]I_Am_Okonkwo 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is our agenda in one image
[–]RoyalKai 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I've actually been trying to get to the bottom of this for awhile now.
Turns out we've all been talking about two different things.
The real meaning of racism is to think or act against another person because of their race. Sexism is the same because of their sex.
But that's not what the "OMG dat's racist/sexist/homophobic/islamaphobic/anti-whatever" crowd is referring to. What they are really getting at is the majority vs the minority. But even that goes a little bit deeper because its not purely about numbers in any given location. What really bothers them is the group of people that control the status quo.
They feel that because this group can determine among themselves what is normal and what is expected, other cultures, genders, beliefs, etc are forced to either assimilate or be ostracized. This is the mentality that leads to the discomfort they feel when they observe a negative remark from the 'controlling' group to the 'subordinate' group.
Now whether you like it or not, if you're in that group (say a white male) you receive the benefits of being in that group even if you disagree. And therefore should volunteer to step back and allow the less privileged groups to take the opportunities that wouldn't have been available to them if you took them.
Obviously this mentality is wrong. But it's important to understand where they are coming from if we hope to advance this conversation any further than "You're racist!"; "No, YOU'RE racist!!!!"
[–]McSwaghetti 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thank you for posting this the 100th time
[–]Twitcher77 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If race, gender, religion, or sexuality is a factor in determining the worth of a human being, you are a bigot. If race, gender, religion, or sexuality is a factor in determining the worth of someone’s opinion, you are a bigot and a moron.
[–]Hmwcompton 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I would for a second like to point out that, the top part isn't racist unless the person calling the other man worthless is because of the fact that he is black which is not indicated by the comic making it simply not racism.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Obama has made it his job to divide the country. When he said "change" he meant it
[–]LuciferRatcliffe -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Obviously you don't remember the Bush Administration.
real original. bring up bush. its 2014 yo
[+]tsunade202 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
america is inherently and systemically racist. if you cannot admit that to yourself. then i have no words for you
More white people use drugs but Black people are sent to jail for drugs at 10 times the rate that white people are
Black people receive much harsher sentencing than white people for the same crimes
White people literally can not associate positive words with Black faces because of racism
The Silent Genocide - Facts about the Deepening Plight of Black Men in America
Saudi student is literally surrounded by FBI for cooking rice under terrorist suspicions
I'd trade harsher sentences for drug offenses in return for an enormous leg up in graduate school admissions. This trade is clever on my part because I don't sell, buy or take illegal drugs.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]kinyutaka 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
To be fair to the Idiot-in-Chief, the country was doing this long before he came on the scene.
[–]Parintachin 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Oh gawd, again!? Boy it must be nice to have such a ready scapegoat. This is OUR country, OUR government, OUR responsibility. If the country is divided it's OUR fault, not some ridiculous figurehead who's only been around for the last few years.
dont blame me. I didnt vote for the guy
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes saying be good to people without regards to skin color or sex is such a horrible straw man and no one should ever do that, excellent point and valuable contribution /s
[–]C0ltFury 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Could you please elaborate? I see absolutely nothing anti-woman about this image. It's stating a pretty simple concept. Don't be an asshole to anyone at all, and these imbalances wouldn't exist.
[–]tjmburns 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why does this have upvotes? Trolls, man. Disgusting.
Don't feed the troll guys
[–]joedude -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
cringe
[+][deleted] -14 points-13 points-12 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Annnnnnd unsubscribe
[–]huisme 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why?
[–]andreasvastolorde -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Agreed. But the reason bring that sort of thing up isn't because they don't understand that it's to point out someone's privilege to them. Silly thing, I know.
[+]CosmicKeys -12 points-11 points-10 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
If you think comparing men to whites is a good idea, you've already swallowed a bad frame hook line and sinker.
[–]TracyMorganFreeman 18 points19 points20 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The comparison is not men to whites, but that criticism of an individual is perceived differently if the two parties are not of the same demographic.
[+]CosmicKeys -10 points-9 points-8 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Except you're leaving out the critical point which everyone else implicitly reads, which is that the two parties are clearly thought of as having different levels of societal power. Which not coincidentally will be the first thing a feminist says in response to both of the two questions. This power fantasy about men is critical to how men are stomped on by society.
I wrote about this more extensively here
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wouldn't the best way to address this be to treat everyone well without regards to skin color or sex? I don't understand how someone being less likely to experience discrimination excuses said discrimination.
[+]harryballsagna -9 points-8 points-7 points 12 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
The fact that you even own the software to make this shows your privilege. I can't even....
EDIT: Really? You need a sarcasm tag for something this obvious?
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
That makes absolutely no sense. I could just as easily say that your ability to access the internet shows your privilege and probably clouds your judgement of what "privilege" actually is.
[–]just_an_ordinary_guy 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Alas, the problem of the SJW, and they're blind to it.
[–]harryballsagna -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Sorry, I was using my sarcasm privilege, shitlord.
Yes. We really need a sarcasm tag for something like that. When talking about racism and sexism, its actually rather difficult to tell when someone is just THAT far out there to actually believe something like what you wrote. The -8 karma you have for that comment suggests that I wasn't the only one who thought that.... shitlord
[–]ZorbaTHut 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You can get all the software needed to make that image for free.
[–]huisme 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
ITT
[+]tsunade202 -23 points-22 points-21 points 12 years ago* (20 children) | Copy Link
now tell me what was the constant in every hypothetical situation? they were all white males. white males are the dominant standard in western societies. a man obviously has it better society obviously when it comes to job opportunities and such and you are white which gives you privileges a person of any other color does not have.
so when a person that has both of these privileges chooses to say something to a black person or a women that can be considered insensitive or demeaning even when it may not be racially motivated. It will be perceived as such because it comes from a person in a position of privilege. that's all that matters. if it comes from a person who is perceived to be as "dominant" you are just susceptible of more backlashes and rightly so imo.
you have better chances of success than other people. so you gotta understand the privilege white males have compared to everybody else and then decide from an objective empathic level if you are being insensitive and maybe unfair . This is coming from a black guy who frequents this sub a lot.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
My experience is that black people who work hard and smart can be successful. Black people who don't, aren't successful. The same is true of white people. White people are the majority in our society, so of course it is the default. As an atheist in our society, I am part of a small demographic. 90% of people in the US believe in God in one form or another. Do I bitch about how oppressive it is that I have to deal with religion in almost every facet of our society? No. I just deal with it because I understand that religious belief is the "norm" or default.
The same principle applies to race.
[+]tsunade202 -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link
im not saying a person can't be successful because of their color. im just saying the favor of success is slightly better for a white male than all other groups. also your atheist reference is somewhat irrelevant because if anybody passed you by the street how would they know you were atheist or catholic or whatever? a person's race is apparent and can't be hidden. thats the difference. honestly man im just trying to say how white males alot of the times forgot the postiion they are in. whether they believe it or not. maybe a little more research on the injustices of other groups will help you reach a better understanding.
this video pretty much sums up the systemic injustices other groups go through
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWtDMPaRD8#t=770
im just saying the favor of success is slightly better for a white male than all other groups.
So I can get a scholarship for being white? Good to know.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I would speculate that most of those "injustices" are self perpetuated though. African Americans, in particular, love to hold onto their "culture".... which is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. What I do take exception to is the perpetuation of a victim mentality within that culture and the ridicule that one receives when they do try and make something better of themselves and get up off the streets. "What? You think you betta than us!? Betta than da streets?!" It's that mentality, mixed with the dogmatic view that white people are the source of all their strife, that "keeps da brotha man down" because it gives the person a convenient excuse when they choose to play the victim and not work hard to improve themselves.
Obviously, this doesn't apply to the entire race of people. This is mostly a statement towards the urban "ghetto" culture that seems to perpetuate most of the race issues in the US today.
[–]Sidearm22 -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Culture is in quotes, like it isn't really a culture. +5 points
"get up off the streets" +10 points
purposeful incorrect grammar +10 points
"keeps the brotha man down" + 5 points
"What? You think you betta than us!? Betta than da streets?!" +20 points, where did this idea start?
that disclaimer
"Obviously, this doesn't apply to an entire race", but it is worth noting that it applies to every race.
So... do you have anything meaningful to contribute?
[–]Sidearm22 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Between the lines you actually make a decent point, but peppering your post with these gems takes away from that.
Yeah. Its something I've never been too good at. I keep forgetting that, in order to persuade someone of your argument, you need to not only have your ethos in order, but your pathos needs to be spot on as well. Its that second one I always seem to have a problem with.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
I agree that black people are more likely to be discriminated against than white people, but I don't understand how that's relevant to the message that everyone should treat eachother with dignity and respect without regards to skin color and sex/gender.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
I think the difference is the result of the words. Yes, saying that you hate white people is shitty and mean. But at the end of the day what's the result? It hurt your feelings. Which sucks, I agree. But that's it.
But saying that you hate black people is more than that. The result is more than just hurt feelings, it's an entire culture of racism. The result is slavery, sitting at the back of the bus, separate water fountains, etc.
Are the both shitty? Yes. Are they the same thing? Not even close.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I'm afraid I disagree with the whole "institutionalized prejudice is the only kind that matters" mentality. Think about it- that prejudice had to exist in a racist or sexist person before they made it into authority in the first place for it to become institutionalized.
It's not the act of becoming mayor that might make an individual proclaim "welp, time to kill the jews!" That mentality always existed in that person, and that is exactly the sort of prejudice I'm against. If a person is biased against traits a person is born with, it creates exactly the sort of barbaric mentality that perpetuates institutionalized racism and sexism in existence.
Hating on any individual as a result of characteristics they are born with is always wrong, and that root behavior is what needs addressing.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I never said that it's the only kind that matters. I said that institutionalized prejudice is different, and much more severe, than non-institutionalized. Both are shitty, but institutionalized is by definition more severe.
Very few people hate jews/blacks/men/women/whites/etc. naturally. Most of it is learned through culture and socialization. I mean there are people that come to the conclusions themselves, don't get me wrong, but most of it is learned. Your example about a person becoming mayor doesn't really apply here. Right now, in America (you can substitute whatever group is the sociological minority for wherever), blacks are largely discriminated against. More so than whites. Most of the discrimination was perpetuated by whites. We're talking culturally not on an individual level.
Hating on any individual as a result of characteristics they are born with is always wrong
Agreed.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I appreciate your replying in good faith. I'm fairly certain we are on the same page as far as guiding our personal moral compass, and while we might disagee in terms of severity I believe now that our disagreement occours because we are looking from two seperate perspectives.
I agree that black people have faced and continue to face far more racial adversity in western cultures, but I also believe that in order to convince society at large to abandon its prejudice against them it must be done in an egalitarian manner. Everyone should feel safe from racial profiling, without regard to who it currently hurts more. I think this is attainable through framing all acts of racism and sexism as equally destructive, because they honestly will be in the long run.
Honestly though, I'm glad you agree that judging people off of characteristics they are born with is wrong. I've legitimately argued with radicals who would try to tell me that because men or whites do not suffer on the same scale as blacks or women, it is okay to judge them negatively due to characteristics they had no choice in attaining.
Edit for clarification: I do not think women suffer more than men in western cultures, personally, but that was their stance and I was merely granting it for purposes of debate.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I appreciate your replying in good faith.
Of course. But it IS the internet so I see your point. :p
Everyone should feel safe from racial profiling, without regard to who it currently hurts more.
Of course everyone should feel safe from profiling. I'm just arguing that discrimination against blacks is not the same as discrimination against whites. They both suck. They both should be stopped. But it is not the same thing.
No matter what the belief is, there is someone that holds it. What's scary is when they get together.
I'm just arguing that discrimination against blacks is not the same as discrimination against whites. They both suck. They both should be stopped. But it is not the same thing.
Agreed, but I believe that despite them not being the same they should be frowned upon with equal severity. I understand systematic racism has disadvantaged black people more severely than anyone else in western cultures, but in order to enact widespread cultural change everyone must feel as though they are being equally represented. If we send the message that all prejudice against anyone without regard to skin color (or sex/gender) is always horrible, far more people should (in theory, granted) find that to be a reasonable sentiment. I honestly believe it would be the fastest way in convincing people to drop prejudiced opinions in favor of a more sensible worldview.
The longer we treat races as separate entities, the longer it will draw out this unnecessary racial divide in western cultures. It might be a dream, but I still believe we can overcome this through fair and equal humane treatment towards everyone.
Very valid point.
This is precisely the perpetuation of racism that I'm talking about. My maintaining that African Americans are a different people who ought to be treated differently because of the color of their skin... you are actually the ones perpetuating this race game.
you are actually the ones
Who are actually the ones?
My maintaining that African Americans are a different people who ought to be treated differently because of the color of their skin
This sounds like what Colbert makes fun of when he says "I don't see race". You can't deny that there has been historically a culture of discrimination against blacks. I never said that they should be treated differently. I'm just saying that there's a difference between getting your feelings hurt and institutionalized racism.
People like you who use either use race as an excuse to be a victim, or who patronize those people by buying into their excuses.
You can't deny that there has been historically a culture of discrimination against blacks.
Yes historically being the key word there. African Americans in this generation really have nothing to complain about. They have the same opportunities as everyone else. Hell, they are even given a leg up in most cases (college admissions, affirmative action, more financial aid opportunities, etc.)
I'm just saying that there's a difference between getting your feelings hurt and institutionalized racism.
Yes. A lot of people seem to confuse the two. Insulting a person is not institutionalized racism. Forcing them to sit in the back of buses? Yes. Slavery? Yes. Segregated Schools? Yes. Petty name calling? No. That's just a person being a dick.
People like you snip
Talk to me, not "people like me". You immediately jumped to conclusions about who I am and what I think.
African Americans in this generation really have nothing to complain about. They have the same opportunities as everyone else. Hell, they are even given a leg up in most cases (college admissions, affirmative action, more financial aid opportunities, etc.)
This is simply ignorant and offensive. There are people alive TODAY that had to use separate drinking fountains. You can talk to someone this very day that sat at the back of the bus. That kinda stuff doesn't just disappear.
When saying "black people suck", the result is the institutionalized racism we saw and continue to see. When saying "white people suck", the result is someone being a dick. There's a difference.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's not true. It all depends on where you live. Where I live, white people are the minority. My friend has been beaten up for being white and I used to experience some bullying for the same reason.
A few years ago, I worked at McDonalds after consistently sending in resumes, and going to job fairs. I was one of three white people on the staff. Some people got in because they were cousins with the manager or had another connection.
So saying that white people always have better chances of success is not true. Maybe where you live, but definitely not everywhere.
[+]Lolworth -10 points-9 points-8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
+fedoratip 100.00 fedoras
Merry Christmas!
[–]xXxCREECHERxXx -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Black men and women are equally worthless. ;)
[+][deleted] -9 points-8 points-7 points 12 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link
If you have to argue about it being sexist/racist than its not. Sexism and racism are the most obvious things in the world.
[–]C0ltFury 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link
I think the point is that sexism and racism are a one way thing, when it should be a NO way thing.
[+]supersaddy -16 points-15 points-14 points 12 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link
Racism implies both prejudice AND power, so yes it is a "one way thing" in that sense. Only white people can be racist. Obviously everyone should treat each other equally no matter what race or sexuality but trying to "ignore" colour or gender is not helping the issue. The reason why a white male is considered racist or sexist when calling the other worthless is because they have oppressed them for hundreds of years. As a white male myself, I'm embarrassed reading most of the stuff that is circulated in this subreddit. If you want to stop being "unkind" then you first must recognize not only your white privilege but also the ubiquitous structural racism and sexism that still occurs today, which puts you in a place of structural dominance in opposition to the 'other' (non-whites/non-males). At that point hopefully you will understand why when white men say it, it's racist and sexist and not simply a joke or opinion.
[–]C0ltFury 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Why should I be blamed for past injustices because I happen to be white? I don't blame my German friends for the Holocaust. It had nothing to do with them, it's just a coincidence that they share certain traits with people who are unanimously agreed on as being evil.
[+]supersaddy -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
In no way is anyone blaming the currently living white male population for the atrocities of their ancestors. It is, however important to recognize that the past injustices have put white men in the place we are today that allows us to be what we consider racist and feminist. The domination of the 'other' by whites in the past has placed us "innocent" white men in a socio-economic position that benefits us often unknowingly from day-to-day, which is important to consider when arguing about human equality.
[–]C0ltFury 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's important to consider, but also important to not let it be the trump card when a white male raises an issue that affects them. Which is what I think this sub is predominantly focused on.
[–]Jiral 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I just have a problem with your first sentence. Racism is discrimination based on race. Plain and simple. Sociology and feminism don't get to change the basic definition of the word.
For that matter, to redefine the term with the stipulation that white people can't experience racism because they're in power is racist in itself.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Yay, the color of my skin and the actions of other people that share only that with me is what's important. Good to know I'm the racist.
[+]supersaddy -8 points-7 points-6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
This is why it's such a difficult topic to discuss. I'm sure you're a nice person, and in no way am I calling you a racist. Just simply stating that if you are white, then you are benefitting from structural racism.
You are calling him a racist by implicating him in benefiting and promoting structural racism by being white.
You realize that's racist as hell right?
[–]Kropotsmoke -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No it actually isn't. Decided to dig back through your post history because I figured within a single page you'd show your amazing ignorance on race issues too. My prediction was spot fucking on.
Most people who "don't get" womens issues "don't get" the issues of racial minorities either. What you need to get is that you need to listen to other people to understand the plethora of social phenomena in this country. Being who you are doesn't expose you to every social avenue.
Racism is institutionalized discrimination. White people do benefit from institutionalized / structural racism. Suggesting otherwise is either ignorant or the conscious attempt of a racist to run interference for his comrades.
It's truly amazing how often people cannot look outside of their own experiences and cannot, for the life of them, imagine an experience with contours other than the ones they're used to.
[–]ladut -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I don't think that's what he's saying. Think of it like this: say you're fortunate enough to be born into some wealth - you will, for your entire life (probably), have opportunities that many others will not. Is it your fault? No. Should you feel guilty? No, but you should acknowledge that you got the lucky draw in an unequal system, and understand that others are suffering for want of what you have. You don't need to give it away, you don't need to apologize, but be humbled that you got lucky.
Being white and being male also have their advantages: as a group we never had to fight for the right to vote or the right to own land. We never had to fight for the right to be educated or be considered a full person. As individuals, yes, we have had to fight other forms of discrimination, based on nationality or socioeconomic status, but that doesn't make null and void the advantages we were born with.
Furthermore, though we were born with a net set of advantages, that doesn't invalidate or make any less important the disadvantages we face: parental rights, false rape accusations, social expectations of masculinity, etc. We have every right to fight for equality, but don't ignore the inequalities other groups are also fighting against, and we are on the beneficiary side of many of those inequalities.
Having said all that, I disagree with /u/supersaddy in his definition of racism, I feel that it is outdated and hypersimplistic. I'll respond to his post in a minute if you want to know why.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Even that is nonsense though. What people refer to as white privilege is majority privilege. Had I been born white in an Asian country I would have been constantly viewed as a foreigner and subject to institutional racism for not being of oriental descent. Being white has nothing to do with it.
[–]ladut -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I would agree, majority privilege is probably more appropriate, but in the US whites are the majority, and males do make up the majority of politicians, business owners, and other positions of power. Whether we call our privilege "white," or "male," or "majority," is irrelevant; the fact of the matter is that it exists, and it's consequences are the same regardless of name.
in the US whites are the majority, and males do make up the majority of politicians, business owners, and other positions of power.
As a lower class white male I can tell you those people in positions of power will lend a lot more privilege and have much more in common with an upper class person of colour. Class divisions are much more prevalent, and because white families in NA are the majority of ones with ancestral wealth, people this privilege with being white.
There are certainly small cultural advantages to white skin, but only in regards to peoples shallow snap judgements, while not being white gives you tangible legal benefits, and being born into upper class gives a true advantage from birth.
You should read the reply I made to /u/supersaddy, as it addresses socioeconomic status somewhat. Context is important here, amongst people of the same SES, race and gender play a significant role. Perhaps the role of race and gender are incorrectly overemphasized in comparison to SES in parts of society, but it would also be fallacy to underestimate their impact.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
You do realize it's sexist and racist to imply that currently living white males are somehow responsible for the actions of any other white males right?
Tldr: keep toeing the feminist party line, it's doing so much good for your mind, obviously.
Edit: and b the whole v prejudice+ power thing was made up by feminists so that only white men can be racist or sexist.
It's a lie, racism is prejudice against a race, sexism is prejudice against a sex. A minority or LGBT person can be racist and sexist, the amount of power they have had no bearing on the content and intent of their speech.
Of course you've already bought info the white male shaming party and drank the punch. I wish you luck breaking out of that train of thought and realizing it's just another form of social oppression.
[+]supersaddy -7 points-6 points-5 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I don't think you understand what feminism is but I appreciate your reply, have a good holiday.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
are you denying that the prejudice+ power lie is promoted by feminists, even though they didn't invent it?
[+]supersaddy -7 points-6 points-5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I am simply using the prejudice + power "lie" to explain that generations of prejudice and power brought on by white colonial males has put white anti-racists in a position of power today still, whether we recognize it or not. A feminist is simply someone who promotes the equality of women and men. (Is that not what OP's post is yearning for?). As a white guy myself, growing up I always had a skewed idea of what a feminist is (probably like many others in this sub), assuming they are emotional, hairy women who call all men pigs, but after educating myself, realized how ignorant I was. I am not arguing the true definitions or origins of racism and sexism, I'm just throwing out some ideas about recognizing white privilege and bias in the hopes of promoting acceptance and open-mindedness (in a subreddit that appears to be supporting the opposite).
A feminist is simply someone who promotes the equality of women and men.
You are thinking of an egalitarian, feminism is much more nuanced than that and has multiple faces, not simple at all. Some feminists are egalitarians as well, some are not. Example: if you don't think being made to penetrate is rape, you aren't an egalitarian, but you could be a feminist. If you think that there should be more female CEOs, but not more female construction workers, you could be a feminist, but not an egalitarian. Maybe you;d fall under the less egalitarian forms of feminism, but you;d still be a feminist.
I am simply using the prejudice + power "lie" to explain that generations of prejudice and power brought on by white colonial males has put white anti-racists in a position of power today still, whether we recognize it or not.
It's a lie because racism and sexism aren't "prejudice + power" they are just prejudice. Adding the power aspect is a way of making sure that only white men are blamed for these things, it's underhanded. You seem to have bought into that yourself, which is sexist and racist. You could be a poor black lesbian, if you think that only white men with power can be sexist and racist, you are a sexist, racist, and delusional.
Explain to me how the fact that only some wealthy white males 200+ years ago had all the power, but most men and women had no power, means that only white men can be racist or sexist?
You realize that's absolute idiocy right?
I'll propose this scenario to you: I'm a 5th generation eastern-European immigrant, does that mean I can't be racist or sexist because my ancestors didn't have any power in colonial america and weren't originally considered white?
Fuck no, that's absolutely idiotic to think.
If a black woman calls me a "white pig" is she not being racist?
I could go on, but TLDR: you are fucking delusional, I wish you best of luck breaking out of that mindset.
[–]CAMYtheCOCONUT 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
"Only white people can be racist."
Idiot.
[–]ladut 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The unidirectional definition of racism you put forth has some problems. Due to the heterogeneity of the US and the world (if you're not from the US then I apologize, but my criticisms apply elsewhere), power isn't always unidirectional, and isn't equally concentrated among all areas. Furthermore, other stratifying forces (chiefly socioeconomic status) can have a much greater influence on power structure than race or gender in certain areas.
First of all, power does not originate from any single status, rather it is a culmination of economic, local demographic, social, and religious conditions and one's place within them that give them power. All other conditions being the same, being white in a predominately black neighborhood grants much less power than being in a white neighborhood, even though the nation is predominately white. Being Christian in a Muslim community does not grant you power when, say, running for local political office. Being straight grants you much less power in an LGBT-friendly community than it does in a more homophobic one. Power is a complex, nuanced concept that varies considerably based on relative surrounding conditions.
This means that a white male isn't always in a position of power, and can be discriminated against based on race or sex. The belief that racism and sexism are unidirectional becomes strained when you consider that the same person can be discriminated against and not be racist in one community, but can go 20 miles away and suddenly their same exact sentiments are racist.
Unidirectional racism also doesn't hold up well when a very rich black man (who has more power) can have the same opinion as a very poor white man (who has little), and the latter be considered racist and not the former, despite the black man having much more power.
200 years ago, white males unquestionably had great power over blacks and women, but the qualities that entail power are different today, and the heterogeneous world we live in ensures that power is not universally given to any one group. How then, can a definition of racism/sexism reliant on homogeneity and a different definition of power reliably be used today to describe race/sex relations? Many have already proposed a more appropriate definition of the words, based on intent rather than majority status. This definition circumvents the issues of the old definition without making the words obsolete.
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