That same old hypocrisy!!

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It's not like there's a shortage of breasts, especially given the internet, so you can't really say that they are just sexualized because they are covered up(ignoring that women typically also wear bras for support/comfort or that men's chest are typically hidden just as much) or because people don't see enough of them. By this definition, women's feet which are more often than not covered, would also be universally accepted as sexual and sandals would be deemed obscene/inappropriate for sexual reasons. It really doesn't make any sense to say that breasts are sexual just because they are covered up for being sexual. It's circular logic. You might be able to say that it creates a greater sense of excitement, or taboo, because they are hidden(the same way you might be able to say about pectorals) but not that it affects their sexual nature.

As far as what is or isn't natural, well, I think you're barking up the wrong tree there. I mean, technically every single part of our bodies are natural... dicks, balls, vaginas and asses are all natural and are still expected to be covered because they are considered obscene, innapropriate or sexualy explicit. Not to mention that, as far as "fake" goes, breasts are pretty much at the top for esthetical surgeries or artificial enhancements.

Even if every woman you knew was topless everyday and everywhere, and this was the way of life, their breasts would still be considered inherently sexual and there would still be a major difference between the way breasts and male pectorals are perceived... this is something that is consistent throughout human history/cultures.

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No, I'm not. The point of the argument is to try to equate boobs with genitals, just because people think they're sexy. Boobs are a secondary sex characteristic. A more accurate comparison would be beards, body hair, Adam's apples.

Actually, a more accurate comparison would be about hair in a lot of Muslim communities. Hair a pretty attractive attribute, so women have to cover it, but somehow men often don't.

Shirtless men are sexy, too (given that they're attractive--and remember, there are plenty of people who bitch about fat women being topless at demonstrations, so no, not all boobs are attractive to everyone). It's very straight-male-centric to say that women shouldn't be shirtless just because straight men think boobs are hot. It's just a taboo. The same taboo has been overturned before, back when women's legs were too sexy to be seen even in pants, much less shorts or short skirts.

No one can go pantsless. That's equality. But men can go shirtless. Even fat men, whose also have boobs. Hell, a woman could walk around with pasties over her nipples, but somehow, nipples (which both genders have) are illegal for women to show in a lot of places. That is straight up discrimination.

[–]ExpendableOne -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

An adam's apple isn't used in the reproduction process, it isn't used to nurture a baby and it isn't universally sexualized by men and women. In this manner it is no different than a lower muscle mass or less hair growth.

It also doesn't really matter than some find men's chest sexy, the same way they would find abs or back muscles sexy(which kind of reaffirms my point more than yours), there's still a fundamental difference between the way breasts are viewed, by both men and women.

It also really doesn't matter that not everyone appreciates or likes breasts, especially on older people. A lot of people don't like to see saggy vaginas or decrepit dicks, a lot of people also feel very offended by the sight of dicks and, in some cases, vaginas. The same "taboo" that applies to breasts, applies to penises, testicles and vaginas. You make the differentiation based on petty semantics and your own predispositions on the matter.

Nipples(which are inert in men) are physically different to women's and viewed differently as well. It doesn't really matter that we, as a society, have managed to bend the rules as much as possible to see more breasts. This is a cognitive dissonance in of itself that is actually pretty irrelevant to the matter at hand. At the end of the day, they are still breasts and they are still sexual in nature(if not inherently sexual).

It isn't discrimination to legally expect women to hide breasts in public, the same way anyone else would be expected to hide any other sexual part of their body, because laws are built on social predispositions and, even if we didn't live in a world where breasts were universally sexualized, we still live in a society that does actively sexualize breasts. The male and female bodies are also physically different and it isn't discrimination to recognize those physical differences and sexual traits. Either people accept sexual traits, and breasts are okay in public just like any other sexual trait/organ, or they don't and nothing none of them are acceptable being displayed in public but, either way, it's not discrimination to stay consistent within either of these predispositions.

By your definition, men should also be free to walk around with their balls out. After all, they are only protruding gonads whose only function is to produce sperm long before the act itself, they aren't really used in the act itself and they aren't even sexualized by everyone, yet are still considered obscene, offensive and sexual in nature. Is that discrimination as well?

The fact is, either people are willing to accept human sexuality, and the human body, in a mature way or they're not. Either accept it all or accept none of it, there's no middle ground. Pretending like breasts aren't sexual traits, and playing semantics to get more women topless in public, might make a lot of men, and some women, happy but it doesn't actually solve the base issue at hand.

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You can normalize toplessness, but you'll never sexualize it.

Human female breasts evolved as a sexual attractor toward men. No other field denies this, only gender studies. You don't find zoologists or biologists or even sociologists pretending otherwise -- they know what mammary structures look like in most animals, and they know that ours are nothing like that. They don't inflate only when lactating (ours simply expand, and not even that much). They don't consist almost entirely of mammary and muscle tissue, but of fat meant to fill the empty spaces out.

You're wasting your time if you ever expect men not to be attracted to female breasts.

And really, you have no right. You have no right to dictate what it is about you than men find attractive -- that is the purview of those men themselves.

In short, on that part, grow the fuck up. If you don't accept men as men, then you simply hate us. Wanting us to be something else is hating us.

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I am defending the straw feminist in the comic, because the two issues are very different. Even assuming the same person would be concerned about both things, it wouldn't make them a hypocrite.

I don't have a problem sharing my opinions on porn publicly, but I'd have to write a book to cover it all because there are just so many different kinds and so many different ways to look at it. Since this is a subreddit about gender issues, I guess the most relevant thing I can say is that some of it is pretty exploitative and...um... disturbing. But, from an ideological standpoint, I approve of much of the porn found on the internet because it shows a diverse array of real women with real flaws. Some of the high budget stuff, though, does the same thing that the mainstream media does, which is to portray a false image of women.

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the two issues are very different. Even assuming the same person would be concerned about both things, it wouldn't make them a hypocrite.

This is technically correct - and I would agree with you - but the problem IMO is the perception issue - if you don't explain to people why having a topless calendar is bad in your opinion, it doesn't actually change anything. That is what I get out of it anyways. Without our higher context (that is, you and I know better), it appears on the surface as a hypocritical stance. But I digress, now I am genuinely curious about your stance on pornography - this topic has been coming up more and more (I suppose that Ellen Page feminists AMA had something to do with it).

I guess the most relevant thing I can say is that some of it is pretty exploitative and...um... disturbing.

Example? This is what I am curious about; many feminist positions are that all pornography is exploitative.

Some of the high budget stuff, though, does the same thing that the mainstream media does, which is to portray a false image of women.

The biggest difference is that the primary point of pornography is to objectify people - you are supposed to get your rocks or socks off, not sit there and wonder what the actors' favorite color is (mine is green btw (right now anyways - I'm weird like that) ;p)

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Example? This is what I am curious about; many feminist positions are that all pornography is exploitative.

Yeah, not all feminists are sex positive, and at the same time, not all are sex negative. I fall somewhere in the middle, personally. For example, I have some issues with rape porn. Now this does make me a hypocrite, because I enjoy porn with rapey themes, but I think it helps to contribute to a certain mind set (you can call it rape culture if you want, but I don't like the term, myself) that normalizes, and even encourages, non-consensual dominance.

It's really murky water, though, because then you get into issues with BDSM and violent fantasies that most people accept as being okay--including many feminists. If any other feminists in the sub want to step in and explain this better, I'd encourage you to do so so that I'm not taken as speaking for all feminists, because I know there's a lot of disagreement about it. I find it pretty confusing, and I don't really have a solid stance on it. Most of my thoughts on it revolve around how it affects kids and couples, not women specifically.

[–]Neurotikitty 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

For example, I have some issues with rape porn. Now this does make me a hypocrite, because I enjoy porn with rapey themes, but I think it helps to contribute to a certain mind set (you can call it rape culture if you want, but I don't like the term, myself) that normalizes, and even encourages, non-consensual dominance.

Do you feel the same way about video game violence?

I'm not trying to be an ass, but it seems like a similar parallel to me. I enjoy shooting things in video games. I also enjoy shooting guns at shooting ranges. I would never, however, shoot another human being unless my life was in imminent danger.

Similarly, I love sexual fantasies with violent themes (even simulated non-con). Sometimes I like to act those out with a consenting partner. But never in a million years would I be okay with raping someone else or getting raped.

I just want to know where the line is drawn with media "normalizing" a certain mindset. Do you really think people lose their moral compass in some way after engaging in a simulated fantasy of a taboo behavior?

[–]KRosen333 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

For example, I have some issues with rape porn. Now this does make me a hypocrite, because I enjoy porn with rapey themes, but I think it helps to contribute to a certain mind set (you can call it rape culture if you want, but I don't like the term, myself) that normalizes, and even encourages, non-consensual dominance.

Lol this is extremely hypocritical. No offense, I am glad you do not run the porn industry - <3 no hate intended - I know more than one gal who has a rape fetish (which always seems to surprise the hell out of me actually...)

Most of my thoughts on it revolve around how it affects kids and couples, not women specifically.

Kids should not be exposed to hardcore pornography, and couples should be consenting adults.

but I think it helps to contribute to a certain mind set (you can call it rape culture if you want, but I don't like the term, myself)

What mindset? <-- this is the important question, so please answer this one :p

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[–]KRosen333 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The mindset that women are meant to be used and controlled.

AHHH I KNEW YOU WERE GONNA PULL THAT ONE!

Who really has this mindset? Who in their right mind?

I find this 'straw man' to be damn near mythical.

It's the ones where the girl is sleeping, or gets too drunk and passes out, or the ones showing underage girls (or at least that's the "storyline"). There are relatively normal people out there who genuinely think those things are okay, and I think seeing those things in porn probably reinforces the idea to them.

This is like the one woman (from jezebel maybe?) who tried to say rape jokes reinforce rape - I reject your argument on the grounds that reasonable human beings can see the difference between something fictional and something in reality.

Remember, a lot of those things exist because they are a fetish. Not because people want to normalize them, but because it turns them on.

Likewise, I find it interesting (and I apologize in advance for ... well, trying to analyze you - I don't intend ill meaning) that you use the word "abstain" - as in, it is something you want, but something you refuse to oblige for your own reasons.

I have a hypothetical for you:

If I told you that dominant women turn me on, would that make me hypocritical, in your opinion, since I am a Mens Rights Movement Advocate and reject feminism for its female supremacy ways (in my opinion, which you know I am willing to back up :p (and again, I don't want to focus on what I think of feminism, but rather if you think those two things can be reconciled))?

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Title	That same old hypocrisy!!
Author	LasherDeviance
Upvotes	173
Comments	164
Date	June 27, 2013 1:09 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1h5cah/that_same_old_hypocrisy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/that-same-old-hypocrisy.1170094 https://theredarchive.com/post/1170094

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