CMV : Most Marriage is based Fish Love

Scurvemuch · 2017-03-24T18:32:31+00:00

There is a video online of a Rabbi explaining what we usually mean when we say we love someone. Goes like this: " I love Fish!" " No you do not...

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there is a distinction between loving someone and being in love with someone.

What distinction? On first blush without really understanding what you're referring to here, I'd say I'd rather have my spouse be "in love with me." "Loving someone" can mean non-romantic love, I'd rather mine experience romantic love but I'm not sure if that's the distinction you are making.

Of course. If a man loves your being(non-romantic) doesn't really matter to you as long as he's in love with you(romantic love).

Getting a man's romantic love is one of the end goals of girl game and relationships as it typically leads to marriage.

Absolutely, I call that lust.

Well whatever you call it, this is what happens when men "love women" prior to a relationship. I call it infatuation myself. Whatever it is, it is most certainly based upon "feelings" not just observations of behavior.

It is your typical crush or infatuation, yes. But it usually includes loving her being too, like how she laughs and flips her hair.

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That makes no sense. When you are "in love" with someone you are "loving someone" in a romantic way.

Haha I don't know how else to put it.

You only basically care about how the man makes you feel.

Men care about how the woman makes him feel and how the woman herself is irrespective of how she makes him feel.

To you, how the man himself is is just details. Cool and nice, but ultimately, whatever, as long as he still makes you feel a similar way you couldn't care much about the details that make the man himself.

Like you mentioned, you care about his inner world, and that is figured out based on how he makes you feel, not the actual specific details of himself.

You could even say you mostly only care about the details as far as how they make you feel about him and not the details themselves beyond that.

How do you know that? Why is loving someone for their innate qualities/personality less in-depth and shallow compared to loving someone for the way they smile and toss their hair?

I wouldn't say it's really about depth.

Its just different. Love based on feelings and love based on appreciation/understanding of how someone is.

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OK, but those mannerisms, expressions, manner of speaking, emotional expressions, nuances etc. are having no emotional effect on you? They aren't making you feel a certain way?

Sure they do, especially if I let them.

Are you just as likely to fall in love with a woman whose speech, expressions and mannerisms are masculine, crass and off-putting as you are a woman who is feminine, cute and charming?

I'm guessing no. Why not?

There's two different things going on here.

No I won't fall in love with a masculine feeling woman probably, especially not as much as the feminine feeling woman. But I can still love the more masculine woman's being even though I am not actually attracted to her, or even repulsed.

Maybe it'd make more sense if you see that I do this with men too. I'll love a man's being, but almost never am I going to fall in love or be attracted to him.

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"Selfless" love exist between mother and child in the sense that she risks everything and is willing to give all resources to a completely helpless, shrivelled, screaming parasite without getting any immediate reward for it. The basis for this is the extremely high dose of oxytocin released during pegnancy, birth and nursing which leads to a very strong bond (in most cases, excluding various mental illnesses.) The same hormone is released in relationships during sex, cuddeling, etc. just in smaller doses. So yeah this "true" as in hormone-induced love does exist but it is never as strong as that between mother and child, it only develops with lots of close contact over a long period of time (so you have to be able to keep the relationship alive through "superficial reasons" in the first place) and it can also go away again if that contact is decreased of overshadowed by negative emotions etc.

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routinely as in cases of mental illness. That is not the norm and not the mechanism working as intended. The whole point is for the offspring to survive - that is what the entire human apparatus has evolved to achieve. It's complex and fails sometimes but in most cases it works to create the bond required - the cases where it doesn't work are evolutionary dead ends by killing their own lineage. It is "Selfless" as in it has not tangible reward for the individual the way that a man giving you resources has for example - it is selfish for the genes, not the individual and that is how it is supposed to work. You saccrifice yourself for your own offspring to ensure the survival of your genes. In the same way a pair bond beween lovers is selfish for the genes - they are to stay together to ensure the survival of their offspring together since two adults provide better than one.

As I understand it, that is exactly what TRP dreamers call "selfless" love - aka the type of love they received from their mother. It's all biological imperative to ensure the gene's survival obviously but they romanticize it

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Yes, I love men in recognition of their virtues, character and specific attributes THEY display. is that somehow related to the nonsense assertion of "selfless" love?

" Love, friendship, respect, admiration are the emotional response of one man to the virtues of another, the spiritual payment given in exchange for the personal, selfish pleasure which one man derives from the virtues of another man’s character. Only a brute or an altruist would claim that the appreciation of another person’s virtues is an act of selflessness, that as far as one’s own selfish interest and pleasure are concerned, it makes no difference whether one deals with a genius or a fool, whether one meets a hero or a thug, whether one marries an ideal woman or a slut."

Keep your cryptochristian mystical collectivist altruistic evil reified concepts to yourself, I don't admire them

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, I love men in recognition of their virtues, character and specific attributes THEY display. is that somehow related to the nonsense assertion of "selfless" love?

" Love, friendship, respect, admiration are the emotional response of one man to the virtues of another, the spiritual payment given in exchange for the personal, selfish pleasure which one man derives from the virtues of another man’s character. Only a brute or an altruist would claim that the appreciation of another person’s virtues is an act of selflessness, that as far as one’s own selfish interest and pleasure are concerned, it makes no difference whether one deals with a genius or a fool, whether one meets a hero or a thug, whether one marries an ideal woman or a slut."

I'd still call that loving him for how he makes you feel. Unless you'd love him regardless of if you agreed with their virtue, character, displayed attributes.

Keep your cryptochristian mystical collectivist altruistic evil reified concepts to yourself, I don't admire them

But I need your approval :(

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Can't say because I never saw the movie so idk what happens to Dory. One thing I do see tho is that often your ECs at MRP say things like "be pleasant, feed me, drain me" (ugh!) 😆 or something something like that and it's all you have to do.

Guys have a high sex drive. Life feels a lot better when our sex drive isn't acting up. When a girlfriend is so attracted(Chad) to the guy that she wants sex all the time, the guy not only has his self-esteem soaring high, but he feels that she is truly sexually attracted to him because she's having sex with him so much.

Idk if it is that simple because even if you get that right, it seems like there is some kind of unhappiness or dissatisfaction that can never go away.

Oh, that's because the guy knows sooner or later the Bigger, better deal will come along and the girl will cheat on him or dump him.

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[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

Yeah this video came up on my Facebook wall too. What I took away from it was that fish love is a selfish love, it's the fleeting rush of emotion, how can you make me feel good, love. "True love" is selfless love, to do what is best for the fish even if you would prefer something different. Pretty much it's the old saying that love is a choice, not a feeling. So yes, I agree most marriages are fish love.

What I disagree with is the conclusion you (and others in this thread) came to about it having to do with loving someone's esscense vs loving them for what they do. You can love someone for what they do in a fish way or an a true way. But I agree with GinSmoke that there is no such thing as loving someone for their essence. Even if you could, it seems like a really stupid way to pick who to love.

PS. Let me know if I should move this to automod since I agree with the title.

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It's like loving something objectively. My feelings and opinions of the person has nothing to do with me loving it or not.

I love the person for being the person. Not filtered through my subjective lens and what I get out of, how they make me feel, if I'm attracted sexually or romantically, etc.

Does not compute.

What is a person if not what you perceive through a subjective lens? Like, what else is there? How do you know if what you love about them is even there if it does not alter your reality in anyway?

How do love something if you hate (or at least don't love) the way it is?

I mean, women can love a guy for the way he is. Objectively. He is tall and handsome, hardworking, smart, whatever. He would continue to be those things in her eyes with or without her love, but those are the traits that make her want to love him. Is that what you are describing?

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

It's like loving something objectively. My feelings and opinions of the person has nothing to do with me loving it or not.

I love the person for being the person. Not filtered through my subjective lens and what I get out of, how they make me feel, if I'm attracted sexually or romantically, etc.

Does not compute.

What is a person if not what you perceive through a subjective lens? Like, what else is there? How do you know if what you love about them is even there if it does not alter your reality in anyway?

How do you figure out anything objective while you're always a subjective being?

The best way I can put it is that I attempt to take myself out of it as much as possible first.

Once I figure it out objectively, then I analyze it through my various lenses of subjectivity.

How do love something if you hate (or at least don't love) the way it is?

I love it itself, then I personally hate it.

I mean, women can love a guy for the way he is. Objectively. He is tall and handsome, hardworking, smart, whatever. He would continue to be those things in her eyes with or without her love,

If she loves him for these things themselves without caring about how it affects her, then that's loving him objectively, or true love.

But these are vague characteristics as opposed to more specific details. However I think women do generally focus on more vague characteristics over specific details so I don't find your choice here random.

but those are the traits that make her want to love him. Is that what you are describing?

Which is what she would be romantically in love with him for how these characteristics make her feel.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

How do you figure out anything objective while you're always a subjective being?

You measure it. Number of love letters, kisses, amount of sex had, sacrifices made, ocurrances of inside jokes, frequency of secrets shared. Essentially, the things they do. That's how you measure something objectively while being a subjective being. Are you sure you don't mean that men love subjectively and women love objectively observable things?

I love it itself, then I personally hate it.

That sounds like an oxymoron to me. Why chose to love a thing if you personally hate it?

If she loves him for these things themselves without caring about how it affects her, then that's loving him objectively, or true love.

But they do effect her if she is in a relationship with him, regardless of whether she cares about it effecting her or not. Why could she love those things if they did not effect her? Like, say he is hard working and eventually gets a promotion, she is effected by that. If he does not get a promotion, is he really not hard working, so she cannot love that aspect of him.

But these are vague characteristics as opposed to more specific details. However I think women do generally focus on more vague characteristics over specific details so I don't find your choice here random.

Well I was just making an example, not about anything specific.

Which is what she would be romantically in love with him for how these characteristics make her feel.

Yes. Do guys not feel romantic love?

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You measure it. Number of love letters, kisses, amount of sex had, sacrifices made, ocurrances of inside jokes, frequency of secrets shared. Essentially, the things they do. That's how you measure something objectively while being a subjective being.

Sure, though I was more paraphrasing you.

Are you sure you don't mean that men love subjectively and women love objectively observable things?

If anything, men love objectively and subjectively, women love subjectively. The subject love is about how the person makes someone feel.

I love it itself, then I personally hate it.

That sounds like an oxymoron to me. Why chose to love a thing if you personally hate it?

I don't choose really. At least not these days. If I get to know someone well enough I'm pretty guaranteed to truly love them.

I have rather extreme beliefs, if I let my opinion of people cloud seeing them truly it'd really throw me off. Like just because I hate someone or something doesn't mean I'll necessarily express it or act on it, make it known.

But they do effect her if she is in a relationship with him, regardless of whether she cares about it effecting her or not. Why could she love those things if they did not effect her? Like, say he is hard working and eventually gets a promotion, she is effected by that. If he does not get a promotion, is he really not hard working, so she cannot love that aspect of him.

Yes they do affect her, but if she's caring about those feelings then it's not part of true love.

She could love those things for the fact that he has those characteristics, not for herself.

Two forms of love, two different requirements. Romantic love is self centered, true love is not.

Yes. Do guys not feel romantic love?

Yes they do, but not only romantic love, they also experience true love.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If anything, men love objectively and subjectively, women love subjectively. The subject love is about how the person makes someone feel.

I had to Google exact definitions for this:

Objective: (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

It seems as if you are saying male love is more subjective, because it just happens. There is no reason behind it. You love a thing regardless of rhyme or reason. You just take a liking to it and that's that. You feel like you should love her and so it happens, you are attached.

A woman's love is more objective, it's not influenced by an over arching feeling love, but by measurable acts. Fact: I love when a guy sends me flowers, action: send flowers, reaction: love is strengthened. There is no feeling for the guy himself (as you are arguing). It's just a cause and effect.

I don't choose really. At least not these days. If I get to know someone well enough I'm pretty guaranteed to truly love them.

But you choose who you get to know well enough, no? Don't you choose the people most useful to get to know?

I have rather extreme beliefs, if I let my opinion of people cloud seeing them truly it'd really throw me off. Like just because I hate someone or something doesn't mean I'll necessarily express it or act on it, make it known.

I am trying very hard to understand your POV. But it's honestly like another language. How do you form an opinion about someone if not based off of what you truely see them as.

The second part I understand, and agree. I am very well versed in not acting on how I feel about certain people. I'm pretty sure most adults are capable of having a polite conversation with someone they hate.

Yes they do affect her, but if she's caring about those feelings then it's not part of true love.

How separate caring for yourself and caring for your partner? I want my partner to get a promotion for himself, because he has been working very hard towards it and sacrificing many nights with me for it. Is that selfless because I want him to relax or is it selfish because I want to have more time to have more time with me? If he wants to have more time to spend with me too, does my wish for him become less selfish?

She could love those things for the fact that he has those characteristics, not for herself.

What good are those characteristics if not for herself? What would make any one characteristic more worthy of love than another if not for the benefit to her, her family, and society. Also, you have yet to convince me that men don't also love in this way.

Two forms of love, two different requirements. Romantic love is self centered, true love is not.

Yes they do, but not only romantic love, they also experience true love.

Whoa. Hold on, what's the difference between true love and romantic love?

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I had to Google exact definitions for this:

Objective: (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

It seems as if you are saying male love is more subjective, because it just happens. There is no reason behind it. You love a thing regardless of rhyme or reason. You just take a liking to it and that's that. You feel like you should love her and so it happens, you are attached.

A woman's love is more objective, it's not influenced by an over arching feeling love, but by measurable acts. Fact: I love when a guy sends me flowers, action: send flowers, reaction: love is strengthened. There is no feeling for the guy himself (as you are arguing). It's just a cause and effect.

Lol it's funny how you basically just flipped it on its head.

Subjective love cares about how the self is made to feel by the person they love, it is self centered(I do not mean selfish). How they are made to feel is created by the person they love's actions.

What you're calling women's love above is subjective, not objective. Where is the focus? On how a guy sending you flowers makes you feel, it makes you feel good or loved even, so your love for him grows. Yes his action itself is objective, but if him sending you flowers made you feel bad then it would decrease your love for him probably, which is why this form of love is subjective, it depends on how the action makes you feel.

Men do this too btw, and how women love is the basis of romantic love that both sexes have.

The love that you called subjective, happening without rhyme or reason, because it happens without rhyme or reason is what makes it objective. What is rhyme or reason? It's something the person uses to compel or justify something, and this is subjective.

Whereas without rhyme or reason, it is merely the understanding, appreciating, and acceptance of the person that creates the love for that person, which is objective, there's no judgement(rhyme or reason) from the person doing the loving.

But you choose who you get to know well enough, no? Don't you choose the people most useful to get to know?

To some degree, if I keep getting to know someone and see people more than once then that's definitely me choosing to be friends.

I am trying very hard to understand your POV. But it's honestly like another language. How do you form an opinion about someone if not based off of what you truely see them as.

My current beliefs form my opinions, but when trying to figure out how they truly are I attempt to separate my opinion and judgement from how I believe they truly are.

The second part I understand, and agree. I am very well versed in not acting on how I feel about certain people. I'm pretty sure most adults are capable of having a polite conversation with someone they hate.

Yeah for sure.

How separate caring for yourself and caring for your partner? I want my partner to get a promotion for himself, because he has been working very hard towards it and sacrificing many nights with me for it. Is that selfless because I want him to relax or is it selfish because I want to have more time to have more time with me? If he wants to have more time to spend with me too, does my wish for him become less selfish?

It's both selfish and selfless.

She could love those things for the fact that he has those characteristics, not for herself.

What good are those characteristics if not for herself? What would make any one characteristic more worthy of love than another if not for the benefit to her, her family, and society. Also, you have yet to convince me that men don't also love in this way.

Two forms of love, two different requirements. Romantic love is self centered, true love is not.

Yes they do, but not only romantic love, they also experience true love.

Whoa. Hold on, what's the difference between true love and romantic love?

True love involves loving the characteristics of a person or anything really without regards for yourself! Men do that plus romantic love, and when they love a woman they have both forms of love tied together.

[–]OncleJulian 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]OncleJulian 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I don't see how men could love something that wasn't a benefit to them,

huh

But by this time Dante had fallen in love with another, Beatrice Portinari (known also as Bice), whom he first met when he was only nine. Years after his marriage to Gemma he claims to have met Beatrice again; he wrote several sonnets to Beatrice but never mentioned Gemma in any of his poems. The exact date of his marriage is not known: the only certain information is that, before his exile in 1301, he had three children (Pietro, Jacopo and Antonia).[4]

Betaaaaaa

Beatrice "Bice" di Folco Portinari[1] (pronounced Italian: [be.aˈtriːtʃe], 1266 – 8 June 1290) was a Florentine woman who has been commonly identified as the principal inspiration for Dante Alighieri's Vita Nuova, and is also commonly identified with the Beatrice who appears as one of his guides in the Divine Comedy (La Divina Commedia) in the last book, Paradiso, and in the last four cantos of Purgatorio. There she takes over as guide from the Latin poet Virgil because, as a pagan, Virgil cannot enter Paradise and because, being the incarnation of beatific love, as her name implies, it is Beatrice who leads into the Beatific vision.

oooh

Dante claims to have met a "Beatrice" only twice, on occasions separated by nine years, but was so affected by the meetings that he carried his love for her throughout his life.

yeah..

if even just a pretty thing to make their more lives joyful.

haha. Touché.

When I was 14 I was in love with a girl in my school. She would have class inside the classroom right in front of my own, and I'd see her sometimes where we'd all have lunch. I'd look at her for a couple of seconds, marvel at how beautiful she was and I'd go back to my life.

I never met her. I didn't even know her name. She was beautiful and she made my day better and for that 14-year-old me loved her.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]OncleJulian 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

But men want to be with beautiful women because it benefits them. They get the status of having secured a high value mate, a good breeder, plus something nice to stick their dick into. It's a selfish love.

No, it doesn't lol. Men want to be with beautiful women because we know we are going to be cheated on, that we are going to be used and manipulated by women. If we are going to have to go through that why not pick a beautiful woman?

At least the pain and the misery we are going to feel when the chick's done with us and branch-swings will at least impress our friends.

Look at the European Kings. You think their wives were loyal to them? lol. A lot of those who were born to Kings weren't their own sons, I bet. And besides, being powerful and being ''Alpha'' doesn't mean much without the Chad looks, which means the women these guys were married to - even if the chicks were plain - were not attracted to them.

It's a selfish love.

What do you mean by a selfish love?

Setconsumer. Have you not been following the conversation at all?

I think you meant to type /u/setconsumer

?

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[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

You have a really interesting view on this, in your opinion what makes you love a person?

Clarifying the form of love is important. English really fucks us up with only one word for love.

True love is loving something's for itself, loving its very being, and not how it makes you feel, what you get out of it.

For romantic love for men it's something like

Lust + Loving her being + Sexual Attraction to her being + Motherly enough + Attachment

If you don't love a person because of their traits, their looks, their behaviors, their personality, their "essence", why do you love them?

Well that's everything so you can't love someone without some of these.

What about the people you love makes them different from the people you don't love? What aspect differentiates them.

I'm assuming you mean romantically, which for me most importantly is her energy, followed by her being, followed by her beauty.

Which what I like or prefer more in those regards will mostly have to do with what feels best according to my beliefs, values, primary perspective atm.

[–]lurflyDevil's Advocate5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

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True love is loving something's for itself, loving its very being, and not how it makes you feel, what you get out of it.

and yet you've just said that you love someone because of how they make you feel.

When I love someone romantically, yes of course, loving someone romantically must include how they make you feel.

But when I love them romantically I'll also love them for who they are too, not just how they make me feel.

Romantic love and true love.

I think you're confusing why you love someone and how you love someone.

Because the person I love makes me feel good (thats why I love them - its selfish), I want to do things that make them feel good (thats how I love them - its selfless, in a way).

That's not what I'm saying. You're basically saying you have romantic love and making them feel good is how you show your love. Which is a lot of it, you expect to be loved how you love, which is based on how they make you feel and you make them feel. The feelings are everything.

Most people that I have true love for I don't have romantic love for. That'd be really bad lol.

[–]lurflyDevil's Advocate1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–]lurfly2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SetConsumes1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

appreciating

That is a feeling.

Logical appreciation. Like recognizing the way something is and seeing the good in it or what is valuable in it.

If I love PersonA but not PersonB, then I must not know PersonB well enough to form enough of a conception of them to love.

So if you know someone well enough, you love them? Even if you meet a bad person or a person that is mean to you, as long as you get to know them you will love them?

I will begin to yes. It's like a certain bar must be passed to call it loving them, and then as more is understood the level or intensity of love continues to rise.

And yes to your second question. I'm not good even though I'm benevolent so 'bad people' are still fine in my book. How good are they at being bad is what I'd want to know haha.

If someone's mean to me I can still love them, and even respect how they were mean if it was a skilled demonstration of being mean.

When you really begin to see a psychopathic murderer for who they are, you begin to truly love them?

Lol yeah.

I don't mean to come off as inflammatory in this comment, I just want to get a clear picture of what you mean. Your word choice is vague and I'm taking advantage of that vagueness to push you to be more specific, not to be rude. I doubt you actually love murderers.

I don't mind your questions at all, this has been fun.

Yes I can love murders and serial killers and respect really good and creative ones. Not that I've met any (yet) in person to my knowledge. But I have met several violent criminals(like armed robbery sort) and some of them I love how they are quite a lot.

[–]lurfly2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Like recognizing the way something is and seeing the good in it or what is valuable in it.

If you recognize the good or value in "who someone is" that is an emotional response/feeling as far as I can tell. Can you give me an example of how you would logically appreciate a person?

I think I understand how you define love now though and I do think you are using the wrong word. I respect that you feel the way you do, but I think you are wrong in describing it as love. While love is ambiguously defined, it certainly does not mean simply intimately understanding someone.

Just to make sure I'm understanding properly though, I'd like to ask a hypothetical. Somehow magically you are able to spend 10 years getting to know every single person that has ever lived (you spend 10 years with one person getting to know them, then you spend 10 years with the next person and so on until you know every person who has ever existed). After you have completed this process and you know everyone on an extremely intimate level, would you now love every person who has ever existed?

[–]SetConsumes1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Like recognizing the way something is and seeing the good in it or what is valuable in it.

If you recognize the good or value in "who someone is" that is an emotional response/feeling as far as I can tell. Can you give me an example of how you would logically appreciate a person?

So I met a dude the other day that's a pretty humble guy from some small town in Texas. Kind hearted, liked to make people have a good time, plays the guitar in a country band that just got signed to a label. He's a stoner and feels weird smoking by himself, he loves to share, thinks it's wrong not to. He's pretty smart too, he helps get his band booked for shows, uses social media for advertising, told me about a pretty complex problem he wanted to hire a programmer for.

Those are all facts about him. Obviously not necessarily concretely accurate facts, but from his story and talking to him I know all these traits he has with some reasonable certainty. By understanding him sufficiently and why he is the way he is, it allows me to appreciate the way he is, which lets me accept the way he is, and love him as he is.

I think I understand how you define love now though and I do think you are using the wrong word. I respect that you feel the way you do, but I think you are wrong in describing it as love. While love is ambiguously defined, it certainly does not mean simply intimately understanding someone.

Just to make sure I'm understanding properly though, I'd like to ask a hypothetical. Somehow magically you are able to spend 10 years getting to know every single person that has ever lived (you spend 10 years with one person getting to know them, then you spend 10 years with the next person and so on until you know every person who has ever existed). After you have completed this process and you know everyone on an extremely intimate level, would you now love every person who has ever existed?

Yeah, I would. I suppose it's love based on appreciating and accepting people as they are.

[–]lurfly2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SetConsumes1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]SetConsumes1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I guess I can make myself appreciate it too

Is it really love if you have to force yourself to do it?

I think so. Everyone has some default judgement, going outside of that judgement requires effort but doesn't make it any less real.

Through doing that I can have compassion for someone that stupid.

Does anything elicit strong emotions of any sort in you? I know you have already mentioned weakness and stupidity (then again you also said you could appreciate them so hate is probably the wrong word).

Oh for sure. I can feel very deeply and intensely, I love music especially because of how well it makes me feel.

I simultaneously love and hate many or maybe even most things which may seem confusing, but most things are grey giving you aspects to love and hate.

Typical happy moments can like people genuinely enjoying themselves or seeing people falling in love, as well as sadness like at funerals or people betraying each other. But, if I don't think about what's going on logically then I probably won't feel much if at all.

Have you seen The Neon Demon?

I have not seen The Neon Demon but I watched the trailer, it looks very interesting. Do you love this movie in the same way that you love people or is there an example of the way you love people contained within the movie? Not quite sure how it relates to this conversation.

I both love the movie itself and how it makes me feel, but it's not romantic love here haha. That movie questions what beauty is.

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If he agrees to a marriage these days, he is.

But you don't even know what that means, so how could you test for it? And if you could test for it, you might like the thought consciously, but as soon as you got the test results back showing a positive, you'd suddenly develop this inexplicable feeling that he's not really the right guy for you because he doesn't quite turn you on enough.

Of course, you might just let that slide as a temporary feeling, say nothing about it, and marry him anyway. Everything would be fine, you'd have a child or two, and then lose your libido - because, you know, babies & child-rearing are oh so tiring and you can't really get in the mood when you're tired.

Couple of years later and he's out in the garage in quiet desperation posting on r/DeadBedrooms while you're busy lounging in the master bath tub swiping left on your burner phone during "Mommy's Bath Time."

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I think they're trying to say/imply/argue? that men's love is purer/better because they can love the essence of a woman (whatever that is) whereas women's love is baser because we love via usage/utility.

That's exactly what they're doing, but I've tried many many MANY times on this sub and no one has ever been able to explain to me how you love someone's "essence". I personally do not believe this is possible except maybe in parent/child love. I think anyone who thinks they love their partner's "essence" irrespective of their behavior is lying to themselves, but maybe I'm just a bitch.

Moreover, I don't think loving someone's behavior, actions, mannerisms is "using" them, I think that implication is ludicrous. I don't think you can meaningfully separate those things from who a person is. Which is what makes this concept so maddeningly stupid to me.

Edit: Apparently we're wrong, apparently the point of the metaphor is "Relationships are bad when one person takes and doesn't give anything in return." Eye-opening stuff.

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men want to be loved for who they are, not only how they make women feel

so unconditional mother/child love? that's the only love that's irrespective of actions (mostly).

Why the idea that romantic love is conditional is so damaging to some men, I don't know. Do they want replacement mommy's that have sex with them?

I'm not trying to be facetious, but everything in a romantic context is a quid pro quo. I do this, you do that, we're both happy.

My husband loves me, but I know he'll stop loving me if I cease triggering his love hormones via shitty behavior, slovenly appearance, abuse, disrespect, etc.

If he continues to 'love' me despite the cessation of behaviors that trigger love hormones, is it truly love or merely co-dependence, sunk cost fallacy, reverence for memories, and inertia?

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

men want to be loved for who they are, not only how they make women feel

so unconditional mother/child love? that's the only love that's irrespective of actions (mostly).

Your mostly there is important because mother child love is not unconditional, but for women it is as close as it gets, especially if the woman is motherly and not completely ruthless with mostly unchecked hypergamy.

But no. My mother doesn't know me. She loves the idea of her son and how her son makes her feel. She doesn't have an inkling who her son is really...it doesn't matter for her love.

Why the idea that romantic love is conditional is so damaging to some men, I don't know. Do they want replacement mommy's that have sex with them?

Because it feels so so fake once you see it.

Sigh.

I just act some way and the woman loves me. Great. Nothing to do with me myself truly, just how I was able to make her feel.

I'm not trying to be facetious, but everything in a romantic context is a quid pro quo. I do this, you do that, we're both happy.

My husband loves me, but I know he'll stop loving me if I cease triggering his love hormones via shitty behavior, slovenly appearance, abuse, disrespect, etc.

If he continues to 'love' me despite the cessation of behaviors that trigger love hormones, is it truly love or merely co-dependence, sunk cost fallacy, reverence for memories, and inertia?

He may stop being attracted to you but I doubt he will ever stop loving you yourself, at least while he has memories of you.

Staying with you despite the poor treatment(and loss of attraction) would be more indicative of the latter.

[–]DemonConsulting4" Dragon4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DemonConsulting4" Dragon1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

An actual difference in the "feeling" of love would still require a difference in hormone levels though or their reaction to it. As far as I know both men and women produce oxytocin upon physical touch and intimacy, resulting in a pair bond (although I am petty sure there is quite a variance of amount released/receptiveness between individuals) - unless one sex releases more or reacts stronger to it than the other, their bond should be equally strong.

What I think is far more important are availability of options and the natural sex drive. If a woman is not very attracted to their husband and they avoid physical contact/sex then oxytocin won't be released as much on both sides and the pair bond won't grow. (Mental illness or stress can also overshadow whatever emotional connection you have) The average woman just has far more options if she chooses to leave and the man has far more to loose with both a higher sex drive and less options. Men cheat too after all and when they have the chance they also trade in their women for better models - most just don't have those options. Now I believe there are people who form stronger connections than others but as a whole humans are not strictly monogmous like prairie voles for example and unless there is evidence against it, I believe this goes for both men and women in the same way. It shows itself in different ways in society for the sexes based on differences we already know very well (sex drive and respective sexual strategy/ one sided selection) - no mythical "pure love" and fairie tale explenation needed

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[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DemonConsulting4" Dragon1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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Title	CMV : Most Marriage is based Fish Love
Author	Scurvemuch
Upvotes	12
Comments	340
Date	March 24, 2017 6:32 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/61apwr/cmv_most_marriage_is_based_fish_love/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-most-marriage-is-based-fish-love.269295 https://theredarchive.com/post/269295

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