Pushing boundaries, or what can make a nice guy or an asshole

OfSpock · 2017-09-17T01:08:21+00:00

You're supposed to start with a small touch like a hand, wait until she reciprocates then advance slowly. If you touch a woman's fingers and she uses her napkin to wipe your touch off, then you're not going to get anywhere no matter how much further groping you do.

Battle-Scars · 2017-09-17T01:06:50+00:00

I've never been called an asshole by a woman for escalating properly and making it clear what my intentions are. This assumes mutual attraction though.

notworthmuch20xx · 2017-09-17T01:36:06+00:00

So, is the guy who presses forward confidently an asshole for not asking first?

i guess it depends on his manner and what exactly he's doing, but by this statement alone, i wouldn't think so. if he doesn't stop when it's clear it's unwanted (really, really clear), then an automatic yes to him being an asshole.

Is the demure guy nice or a loser for not doing so?

similar to the above, based on just the info in this OP alone, no, i don't think so. there's definitely a loser/weird way to do this, though. admittedly, it is easier for a guy to be weird by asking than to be an asshole by just being 'confident'. think, touching someone's arm or hand vs. asking if you can do so (while trying to get a hookup). demure guy would probably have more success with relationships rather than hookups, this way.

Is what separates a confident guy and an asshole not their actions, but merely that one is attractive and one is not?

well, yeah, in a way at least. returning to something mentioned in my first message... it depends on his way of doing it, which is also tied into whether or not the guy's attractive to me. since attraction isn't physical only, his behavior also affects that, and if he's gross or rude about his approach or can't/doesn't take clear signals that i'm not into it, he'll be an asshole. if he's not being super handsy and is making conversation in a normal-but-friendly way, then i'm less likely to think of him as a dick.

(some of this stuff is hard to articulate since there's really no other reason or place for me to do so; will try to clarify if questions are asked.)

despisedlove2 · 2017-09-17T02:29:08+00:00

You are missing the point.

If you are attractive to her, you will come across as confident.

If you aren't, you will come across as a creep.

Sniveling_Cur · 2017-09-17T04:21:44+00:00

I see the hamster wheel of "NiceGuy(tm)" never stops spinning. Apparently now "NiceGuys(tm)" are hanging out in bars, using intrusive PUA tactics to pick up chicks.

Where will the wheel take us next? I can't wait!

rulenumber303 · 2017-09-17T15:46:20+00:00

Back in the eighties I worked with a very pretty and sociable blonde girl called Lara who carried a balisong because guys didn't know how to back off. If you have trouble focusing on whether what you are doing is acceptable, just ask yourself... is Lara there getting ready to stab you?

snailypop · 2017-09-17T02:36:03+00:00

Most of character labels (asshole, misogynist, creep, etc..) are describing some internal motivation of the person being labeled. Asshole, for instance, means that the person doesn't care much about the feelings or well-being of others. Since we can't see into another person's brain, often times this label is mistakenly (or even maliciously) attributed to someone who doesn't deserve the label.

However, we can reasonably infer whether or not a person is an asshole based on their actions. The more the girl asserts her desire to not have sex, and the more the guy pushes through this, the more likely he just doesn't care if she's comfortable with it or not. His actions only determine his character in as much as they reflect his internal motivations.

If you don't know whether or not the girl wants it or not, then obviously you are not an asshole for merely attempting to make it happen. You are allowed to promote for your wants, and this doesn't make you an asshole.

Entropy-7 · 2017-09-17T03:03:45+00:00

On a first meeting, I don't ask to touch her hand or shoulder or hair.

However with my last girlfriend, we get naked and I ask "Do you want me to be gentle or rough?"

I will leave it to you to figure out her answer.

pinkgoldrose · 2017-09-17T17:47:54+00:00

Consider the common advice on TRP for making hookups happen.

Don't listen to TRP advice.

The man is advised to start making physical contact with the girl, to move things further physically given the opportunity, and to try and set up the circumstances for sex to happen.

Makes my skin crawl just reading about it.

So, is the guy who presses forward confidently an asshole for not asking first?

Yes. He's also an asshole for not stopping when the girl says stop. Happens all the time. They keep trying. You can literally tell a guy "I'm 100% sure that I don't want to sleep with you nor do anything sexual with you and that's a condition for us to hang out together" and he will fain being okay with it but then he will bloody try to escalate all night. It doesn't matter if the guy is attractive, it's annoying as hell.

On the subject of escalation, I've done things with guys (but nothing involving their penis) that I didn't want to do just because they kept pressuring me even if I repeatedly said absolutely no. If my guard is up 99% of the time, but he tries 100 times that night, maybe eventually he'll wear me down. Is that a victory? Only if you're a psychopath.

If a woman wants to sleep with you, she'll tell you. There should be no pleasure in tricking her.

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blackedoutfast · 2017-09-18T00:53:18+00:00

yes it does mostly come down to attractiveness vs unattractiveness, but there's a huge aspect of it that a lot of people (especially the incels and autistics) don't seem to understand: male attractiveness is NOT entirely based on physical appearance. a physically ugly/short/bald/whatever guy who is confident and socially competent and fun enough can escalate all the way to sex without being called creepy. it happens every single day.

but as a practical matter, the biggest mistake most guys make in terms of kino and physical escalation (other than awkwardly avoiding all physical contact) is that they don't gradually increase the level of intimacy while making sure the girl is ok with it.

dudes without a lot of experience get excited as soon as a girl starts showing some positive interest and jump straight to groping tits or ass wayyyy too soon. that's when they get screamed at or have a drink dumped on them or whatever.

if that same guy had started with something relatively harmless like a handshake, then slowly moved from there through more and more intimate levels of kino, it's easier to tell if you're starting to go too far. you can stop escalating and drop back to what she is comfortable with instead of going straight to "unwanted ass grabbing" levels of creepy.

seriously, if you're a guy who has issues with this type of stuff, just google "discarlo escalation ladder" and read it.

and definitely ignore all the comments made by women (especially the borderline autistic women who like to shitpost on reddit), their advice regarding kino and physical escalation is just as counterproductive as all the "you're a nice guy, just be yourself and one day you'll find the right girl" bullshit.

mgtownigga · 2017-09-18T02:25:41+00:00

It really sucks because if you're unattractive, you really have to play a different game. Attractive ass dudes can get away with a lot, especially when it comes to physical contact. I find that average and unattractive guys have to strike a greater balance and be very mindful of how they come across. Timing is really important.

Basically, you can't really get away with being extremely bold, at least not at the outset

PracticedPrick · 2017-09-22T05:54:23+00:00

Nice guy puts more importance in her opinion. Asshole puts more importance in his.

Nice guy a better person. Asshole a sexier person.

Which is the utterly logical reason the former make better eventual boyfriends and the latter better lovers.

RockinSocksII · 2017-09-17T02:11:26+00:00

Someone is only an asshole for pushing past boundaries they know are there.

Love8Death · 2017-09-17T17:23:02+00:00

I like pushing boundaries so here's my take.

There's a clear difference between 'not ready yet' and 'you went too far omfg'. The former usually makes them shy and maybe surprised, the latter pisses them off and confuses them.

The former is generally good or fine, the latter I call 'fucking up'. But unless a guy fucks up and pushes forward as strongly again he probably won't be seen as an asshole, unless maybe he went really too far to begin with.

Practice makes perfect. Go read about kino and escalation, and then go practice.

Kino is very effective for making people like you, wrt all sexes really.

TheBookOfSeil · 2017-09-17T04:24:49+00:00

So, is the guy who presses forward confidently an asshole for not asking first?

No. He just has a different style/method of doing things, just like everyone else.

Is the demure guy nice or a loser for not doing so?

No. He just has a different style/method of doing things, just like everyone else.

Is what separates a confident guy and an asshole not their actions, but merely that one is attractive and one is not?

Neither. What separates the two is the perspective of the person on the receiving end of the behavior.

eatthemenu · 2017-09-17T23:49:45+00:00

I'm going to stay clear of terms like "asshole" because I don't think it's productive.

This is really a conversation about consent and what consent looks like. To TRP, consent is generally non-verbal (e.g. If she touches you back, she wants you). The problem with this view is that non-verbal communication is indirect and hard to interpret correctly. A feminist view of consent is that "yes means yes" meaning that you have to hear a "yes" before you engage with someone physically and anything else could be considered assault. Personally, I think that innocent physical contact like touching someone's arm once is usually not big deal (unless their reaction is really negative) but grabbing a strangers ass or giving them a shoulder rub they didn't ask for is not okay.

If you don't go by an affirmative consent approach to sexual contact then you are in potentially dangerous territory. Women often fear saying "no" to a mans advances because sometimes saying "no" has violent consiquences. If you are a stranger, there really is no way of knowing what kind of response you will have to rejection and most women have had very frightening experiences with this. Furthermore, if you don't get an actual "yes" then you might find that while a sexual encounter seemed consensual to you, your partner may have a completely different interpretation of the same encounter.

So, to answer your questions:

Is the guy who presses forward confidently an asshole for not asking first?

Not necessarily but he could be looking at assault/rape accusations because consent is not given. If you are someone who is worried about false rape accusations it's much easier to avoid such accusations if you get affirmative consent throughout your sexual encounter.

Is the demure guy nice or a loser for not doing so?

Not at all. You don't have to meakly ask for consent. You can do so confidently and in a super sexy way (whispering "do you want me to fuck you" in someone's ear before sex is super hot, imho). You can probably stick to trying to read non-verbal communication for smaller stuff (if someone flinches or pulls away when you touch them they probably don't wanna be touched) but overt sexual contact should start with consent if you want to avoid a potentially bad situation. And remember: Consenting to one activity (like kissing) does not mean you have consent for other activities (like sex).

Is what separates a confident guy and an asshole not their actions, but merely that one is attractive and one is not?

Consent is what separates them and the best way to get unambiguous consent is to just ask. The goal should be for everyone to walk away from this having had a good time. If one person is unsure or not totally into it then it's best to just hold off for the moment.

Title	Pushing boundaries, or what can make a nice guy or an asshole
Author	notworthmuch20xx
Upvotes	4
Comments	155
Date	September 17, 2017 1:00 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/70kmt5/pushing_boundaries_or_what_can_make_a_nice_guy_or/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/pushing-boundaries-or-what-can-make-a-nice-guy-or.266045 https://theredarchive.com/post/266045

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