Q4BP: can't you technically phrase any interaction between humans as 'manipulative'?

coratoad · 2016-05-08T19:42:49+00:00

Not without stretching the language far beyond it original meaning. In order for something to be manipulative, it needs to be deceitful. It is easy to judge whether or not something is deceitful. All you need to do is state your intentions and actions explicitly to the potentially 'manipulated' person.

For an example, I can comfortably tell a guy that I wear make-up. He won't be mad, or even surprised. However, if I use an extremely enhanced profile picture, then he likely would be a little peeved when he finds out that I look nothing like advertised. Thus the latter example is manipulative, but the former is not.

TheChemist158 · 2016-05-08T17:57:15+00:00

If you look hard enough, can't you find 'manipulation' in any sexual/ romantic relationship?

That is the nature of language. Manipulation is defined as

Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the behavior or perception of others through abusive, deceptive or underhanded tactics.

It's true that we try to convince people to change their behavior or perception all the time. I tried to convince my roommate that salsa and mayo are great mixed together. I'll try to convince my boyfriend to have Indian food for lunch, and the list goes on. The idea is that you convinced them through bad means, and bad is a subjective word. But people arguing over this kind of stuff is as old as language itself. Just because it doesn't have a rigid definition doesn't mean the term is meaningless.

[deleted] · Sun May 8 21:36:43 2016 UTC

[permanently deleted]

EmilyCharland · 2016-05-08T18:07:52+00:00

Idk, I normally don't view interaction as manipulative. I don't approach interactions with the thought to manipulate someone into doing what I want. Even if I want something from someone, I don't ever actively think 'if I say this, then I'll get them to do what I want' or 'oh, if I flirt with the waiter then I'll make my bf jealous.' I don't know who thinks like that other than terpers.

funchy · 2016-05-09T03:03:09+00:00

If a guy asks a girl out and takes her to a nice dinner and makes her laugh and he then hooks up with her at the end of the night, didn't the man 'manipulate' her?

Manipulation implies coercion or deception.

If he went out with her cause it was fun to hang out with her, and later sex happened, he did not "manipulate" her. The sex just happened as an organic thing when the time was right.

A manipulator would spend a little time reading a woman to find her insecurities. He would chat with her at that dinner out, whittling away at her self esteem with little comments intended to weaken her. At the same time he'd tell her how special she was. Find out what she wants in a man and FAKE being that man just long enough to get in her pants. Then the moment the deed is done walk out of her place, and log into reddit TRP to declare oneself an "alpha" tonight.

A less sophisticated way to manipulate some women is to flatter them and convince them the man is having special feelings for them. Perhaps even go so far as to say falling for her. Of course the manipulator only views this woman as another notch in his bedpost.

Alternatively, say the woman just really wanted a nice dinner at a fancy restaurant for the Instagram pics, and in exchange let's him have sex with her, didn't she just manipulate him into doing something?

If she is just using him to get one fancy dinner why bother having sex that night?

If you look hard enough, can't you find 'manipulation' in any sexual/ romantic relationship?

No! Good relationships are built on respect, honest intentions, good communication. One person doesn't see the other as merely a means to an end.

I feel bad for those who buy into the TRP philosophy because they cannot see women as equals. And until they have the ability to date someone they see as an equal, they will always be unfilled.

i_have_a_semicolon · 2016-05-08T17:41:17+00:00

This is easy.

Manipulation isn't telling someone something that ends up making them want to sleep with you / be with you etc. Manipulation is telling someone lies, white or otherwise, to get them to be with you. Lies by omission also count here. How true to yourself are you when you interact with the other person? How true to them?

Also, regardless of the inherent selfishness in almost all interactions, manipulative actions are almost always 100% in the selfs interest, where as non-manipulative ones usually take the other person's interests at heart. This is honor + integrity in your communication processes rather than selfishness + lies to get what you want. Big difference.

You be honest and you will not be manipulating, you take her interests at heart and you wont be manipulating. But this often doesn't do one justice in the dating market, because honesty / selflessness can be a "turn off" to some women who would more easily want to have sex with you. They prefer to be manipulated over being spoken to frankly. Well, not all girls are like that honestly, but if you're only looking for a plate manipulation is a successful tactic to getting laid.

MissPearl · 2016-05-09T12:22:55+00:00

can't you technically phrase any interaction between humans as 'manipulative'?

You could, but you would be disingenuous to what people mean when they call TRP "manipulative".

FalkorD · 2016-05-09T14:03:33+00:00

The feeling I get from BPers is that manipulation is abuse if male to female and it's just communication if it's female to male.

Entropy-7 · 2016-05-09T14:17:33+00:00

"Manipulative" as a word has 3 qualities to it:

the manipulated person's actions benefit the manipulator
there is some element of dishonesty involved
the manipulated person's actions are against their own interest or at least do not advance their own interests.

So no, certainly not any sexual/romantic relationship will be "manipulative" because there is mutual benefit, or benefit solely for the influenced party, or benefit solely for the influencer but where everything is above board.

(also note, in terms of dictionary definitions, "manipulative" is defined in terms of "clever or deceptive" or "artful or dishonest" or some such formulation, but we are looking at the latter - and there is the possibility of being clever enough to manipulate an unscrupulous person into a reverse sting which has a moral tone all its own.)

For TRP, we are obviously assuming that sex will benefit the guy, but how would it compromise the girl's interests if there is no deception involved?

And what exactly is deceptive about TRP? Is one obligated to offer up other people's lame criticisms of yourself to every potential sex partner out of some moral obligation to keep everything above board?

And even if there is merit to those criticisms, what is wrong with keeping that hidden if the other person has a great time of it with no compromise to their long term interests?

But isn't marriage the most manipulative transaction of all when a woman's pledge of fidelity, support and allegiance can be withdrawn for any reason or no reason whatsoever while a man's pledge of material support continues even after the divorce?

YouDislikeMyOpinion · 2016-05-10T00:09:38+00:00

I will explain how I operate. People can do absolutely whatever the fuck they want, I don't impose on their right or freedom. At the same time, I can absolutely do whatever the fuck I want and no one can impose on my right or freedom.

I don't moderate people's behavior. I simply modify my own behavior to serve in my self-interest. If they choose to modify their own behavior, that's completely up to them. What else am I supposed to do? Modify my own behavior to be detrimental to my self-interest?

Lolachick · 2016-05-10T22:48:14+00:00

"If you look hard enough, can't you find 'manipulation' in any sexual/ romantic relationship?"

By Randian school of thought, yes. Every human interaction is based on selfishness and manipulation is just an inherent part of the equation.

AutoModerator · 2016-05-08T17:32:25+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair, just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Title	Q4BP: can't you technically phrase any interaction between humans as 'manipulative'?
Author	prodigy2throw
Upvotes	18
Comments	167
Date	May 8, 2016 5:32 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4ifgbz/q4bp_cant_you_technically_phrase_any_interaction/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4bp-cant-you-technically-phrase-any-interaction.274757 https://theredarchive.com/post/274757

Comments