Utilitarianism, N count, and TRP

belletaco · 2016-02-08T16:37:38+00:00

So you're just going to ignore the fact that many of their contributors actually hate women?

midnightvulpine · 2016-02-08T17:19:07+00:00

The path to happiness is more than hose two phrases. How you max one and reduce the other matters. I've also seen no evidence on how TRP effects female happiness. What do you base that assessment on?

GaiusScaevolus · 2016-02-08T17:38:27+00:00

It seems like you're just rephrasing the question "so whats wrong with TRP?" which is already gone over in most other threads in this sub.

Adding "...under utilitarianism" doesen't really change the central disagreement- whether or not there is something wrong/harmful about TRP.

If there is something harmful about it, then its wrong under utilitarianism, if there isn't then it isn't. The utilitarian lens doesen't add much.

BiggerDthanYou · 2016-02-08T16:53:34+00:00

D: Men who apply RP teachings usually claim an increase in sexual/romantic success.

While at the same time minimizing happiness and maximizing pain for all the women they interact with. See A.

Or indeed anything that teaches men how to successfully have more (consensual) sex?

Yeah of course, but why do you need TRP for that? All the things that actually help one to get laid can be found in the mainstream.

You can improve yourself, your mental health, your appearance and start flirting with women without becoming a misogynist and without resorting to abusive and manipulative tricks.

[deleted] · 2016-02-09T00:50:44+00:00

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appencapn · 2016-02-08T17:42:16+00:00

Men who apply RP teachings usually claim an increase in sexual/romantic success.

This is the claim. The reality is that TRP doesn't do much for the men that subscribe to it unless they take something out of it. Even TRP posters have said the sub is often dominated by omega men and incels who will eventually become MGTOW. The sub also has a huge overlap with incel subs and forums like Sluthate, PUA hate based on x posting. The men who take something from TRP I feel would be just as successful if they used any other self help strategy or even "snake oil" lies. Success in TRP has more to do with personal motivation than teachings and that is witness in the number of bitter, mangry posts that never seem to stop coming into the sub. I even watched as frequenters of an incel sub on reddit gradually switched to redpill, didn't work for them, then gradually switched back keeping their redpill ideology and using it more to justify their anger and frustration than actually improve. TRP and its blogs does not demand improvement, it just demands subscriptions and in the case of some of the main bloggers and posters, money to buy their merchandise.

The other point is that TRP is fundamentally detrimental to women, many minorities, and poor people. Many TRP threads advocate the inherent inferiority of minorities and of certain groups of women (i.e. any woman who does not agree with them, but particularly mothers and divorcees.) You may deny that the racism part is as prominent o the reddit subs but some endorsed bloggers admittedly see many minority groups as inferior and do not want them in the West. Just as well TRP has a huge cross over with the alt and far right which also promote racism and negative social policies towards the poor.

anacrassis · 2016-02-08T18:23:43+00:00

As has been said many times: most of us wouldn't have an issue with TRP if it wasn't hugely misogynistic. There's nothing wrong with teaching men what women like.

[deleted] · 2016-02-08T18:24:48+00:00

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DevilDwarv · 2016-02-08T16:38:58+00:00

If the only thing TRP was doing was making men have more sex with fully consenting women, I'd be okay with that.

But they do a heck of a lot more. They constantly try to rationalize why women can't make rational decisions, why no doesn't have to mean no, why women are dishonest etc etc. If enough people internalize these teachings, that will lead to unhappiness in women. Therefore BP opposes TRP.

Besides, some threads on asktrp, or mrp are people who describe a marriage where nothing was wrong until they found TRP and suddenly they became unhappy, used trp and their wife became unhappy. That's also a negative effect from TRP.

And finally, a lot of the things that TRP teaches men to do (especially "never show emotions", but also the implication that your value is dependent on how many women you bed), are causing a lot of the problems that MRA's fight against (high male suicide etc).

wtknight · 2016-02-08T18:08:33+00:00

Most utilitarian Blue Pillers believe that the harm that TRP does to women is greater than the happiness that it gives to men.

ehwut · 2016-02-08T18:04:56+00:00

TRP casts a wide net addressing men's issues, so when its advice is paired with the wrong person, it can be a bad thing. Consider the outcome when a man misdiagnoses the source of his problems, and consequently overcompensates the wrong way.

Under such circumstances, TRP can be an enabler for unethical, immoral, amoral, and possibly even illicit conduct. Regarding that last one, see comments on this page about how TRP blurs the lines where consent is concerned.

Wrong is wrong, and it can not be negotiated. But TRP provides many means to attempt it anyway, through rationalization and justification. And that's the problem. It teaches everything except honor.

Honor absolutely is a component of masculinity when it comes to sex and relationships because it is a component of fatherhood. Bottom line, the reason we're instinctively and emotionally compelled to couple is propagation of our genes. Anything that increases the success rate of conception while decreasing the success rate of healthy and honorable child-rearing will ultimately be contentious.

There is an alternative to training men for fatherhood at the same time as training men to be sexually desirable, and that is to emphasize responsibility to prevent unplanned conception. TRP also neglects that approach. So, however these observations are regarded, it should not be a surprise that red pill philosophies are contended with.

Remember that the difference between a genuine alpha and a douchenozzle posing as one is, always has been, and always will be honor. Not white-knighting, m'lady baloney, but an actual moral and ethical compass and a demeanor of masculine authority to encourage the same among others.

GoldPilot · 2016-02-08T16:42:28+00:00

It's not as simple as "maximize pleasure." Purely utilitarian methods are often socially obtuse.

The ends in TRP, in terms of social interaction, often don't justify the means.

PostModernismKills · 2016-02-09T20:48:43+00:00

I don't get your premises, they don't logically follow.

Many BPers take a roughly utilitarian approach to ethics (Maximize happiness, minimize pain)

If they don't support your premise then that means that this would be categorically false. I assume that what you call "utilitarianism" isn't essential to whatever is the position of "BPers," therefor they may easily reject your premises and whatever you call "utilitarianism".

B: Many BPers believe that a girls partner count does not matter/affect her ability to find long term happiness.

Ah, but there you qualify your beginning premise - sneaky! "long-term happiness" ≠ "happiness." Perhaps a person's "partner count" may not matter for "long-term happiness" but it is possible that there's short-term unhappiness, especially if they're sleeping with someone because they like them but it turns out not to work.

C: There are many men whose happiness would increase from having sex/ having sex more frequently.

That's an assumption. There are many men who might believe that their short-term happiness will increase (at least post-ejaculation with all those hormones) but surely having lots of sex without a consistent emotional connection to someone would make some men feel bad in the long term.

D: Men who apply RP teachings usually claim an increase in sexual/romantic success.

Men who are "applying RP teachings" are much more likely to report their successes than their failures.

Given these premises, Shouldn't BP/utilitarian folks support TRP?

Well, you didn't support your premises so no.

Utilitarianism, N count, and TRP

Comments

badphilosophy

Title	Utilitarianism, N count, and TRP
Author	GaiusScaevolus
Upvotes	3
Comments	106
Date	February 8, 2016 4:23 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/44rmqh/utilitarianism_n_count_and_trp/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/utilitarianism-n-count-and-trp.276377 https://theredarchive.com/post/276377