What is masculinity?

drok007 · 2016-06-16T15:15:25+00:00

Masculinity is aggressiveness and strength. That's why masculine thought ties in with competition, free market capitalism, and fascism. It also aligns with individualism and freedom over safety. It's also decisive action over communication, thinking and efficiency over feelings and empathy.

That's why feminist thought on the other end of the spectrum like feminism ties in with socialism and communism. It also aligns with collectivism and safety over freedom. And the other inverses from above.

c_in_macn · 2016-06-16T15:20:03+00:00

Basically what it comes down to is that feminists believe toxic masculinity is testosterone.

GridReXX · 2016-06-16T16:31:05+00:00

It is my understanding that masculinity is a combination of having a purpose in life and having skill with the opposite sex.

dis me.

but most wouldn't call me masculine at first sight. i think it's the boobs and lipstick.

midnightvulpine · 2016-06-16T16:26:07+00:00

Masculinity is a cultural construct that is based on what a particular society sees as traits men should have. There are common elements.

Toxic masculinity is when those traits are prized to the exclusion of all else and the lack of such traits is treated with scorn and ridicule. It is also the taking of these traits to an unhealthy extreme.

There is nothing wrong with being masculine. But when it is used as an excuse for bad behavior, that is wrong. When men who don't meet that standard are ridiculed, it is wrong. When men are made to believe they have to be this thing by society it is wrong.

citrusdrink76 · 2016-06-16T17:30:38+00:00

This is a bit like all the 'what is alpha?' questions on this sub. To some extent, we're all going to have our own ideas about masculinity is. That said, I think most people would generally agree. It's either a quite good or quite bad place, here, to have this discussion, because I find both RP and BP (BP as in heavily feminist) ideas of masculinity skewed and/or cartoonish. So I guess I'll just say what I personally think it is.

I think masculinity is both biological and cultural. There are some innately masculine traits. There are some that are culturally determined. I do not think masculinity is about political or religious stance. Very religious men AND atheists can be masculine (or not). Conservatives AND communists can be masculine (or not). Hell, women can be masculine. But most masculine people are men. Masculinity itself can be good or bad. It can definitely tip over into toxic masculinity, but it isn't inherently bad at all. A world without masculinity is unthinkable, it's one of the main forces in human society, imo.

The maybe-easy part is the physical. Most of us would pick 'muscular Navy SEAL' over 'androgynous skinny boy with Bieber hair' as the more masculine. But even with physical traits there are some issues. Muscularity and physical capability are masculine, yes. The Navy SEAL is masculine because he is strong and physically capable and because he earned his muscles. Jersey Shore muscles (built with steroids and many hours standing in front of am mirror at the gym, followed by a spray-tan) are not. In fact that latter sometimes reads distinctly feminine to me.

What else? These are some of the traits I would associate with masculinity (in no particular order):

tough (physical, yes, but also head-based)
self-disciplined
honourable
protective
direct
risk-taking
courageous
thumos - this is from Harvey Mansfield (who I keep wanting to start a thread on but then don't because I know probably no one here has read his 'Manliness' book): 'thumos' (i.e. "The Greeks used the term thumos to denote the bristling, spirited element shared by human beings and animals that makes them fight back when threatened. It causes dogs to defend their turf; it makes human beings stand up for their kin, their religion, their country, their principles. Just as a dog defends its master, so the doggish part of the human soul defends human ends higher than itself.")

I do not, in general, find Red Pill or Blue Pill to be either particularly masculine or encouraging of masculinity.

daveofmars · 2016-06-17T13:49:47+00:00

If you were to read letters from 200 years ago that husbands wrote to wives, you'd see such heartfelt and beautiful prose that by today's standards would seem over emotional and even vulnerable. But these man, at the time, were either soldiers or prospectors and even cowboys. Real "men among men".

Our standard of masculine traits are all coming from a present day bias, a bias that is conditioned by our modern world, our media, etc. It's hard to discern what is truly masculine and what is branding.

TBP is right in many respects when it comes to critiquing modern visions of masculinity, but they also don't know what masculinity ought to be because they're stuck in egalitarian thinking, or they want to pander to women's sensibilities. For TBP, masculinity is anything that men can do as men that doesn't offend women. "Masculinity" needs to have feminine traits, or it needs to be accepting of others, or whatever PC directive is currently in vogue. They've fallen into the same trap as the beer commercials.

Until you can take away the media's branding and conditioning, as well as TBP's pandering to women, completely out of the equation then you'll never understand masculinity.

BaadKitteh · 2016-06-16T15:30:35+00:00

Please cite for me a single instance of any post on The Blue Pill that states men should not desire women for sex nor seek competition with one another. If you can do that, I'll address your post.

dakru · 2016-06-16T15:12:29+00:00

Masculinity is having characteristics that are typically associated with men. This includes characteristics that are associated with men for biological reasons (being tall, having large amounts of muscle mass edit: having larger amounts of muscle mass, I should say) but also more arbitrary characteristics that are associated with men for cultural reasons (like having short hair).

It is my understanding that masculinity is a combination of having a purpose in life and having skill with the opposite sex.

Plenty of women who most people would judge to be feminine would count as masculine under this definition.

Leinadro · 2016-06-16T16:03:39+00:00

I wouldnr say thats the harm of blue pill and feminism.

I would say that the harm comes from viewing practicioners of masculinity through a specific lense that starts with base assumptions like privilege and that oppression of men isnt real or that things that harm men are rooted in hatred of women.

From there its no wonder that most of their examinations of what toxic masculinity is and how to fix it are from the perspecitve of how women are affected by masculinity (or at least to them how masculinity affects women is top and maybe only priority).

But im curious. What makes red pill toxic masculinity. You give no explanation just assertion. You at least try to say why blue pill/feminism is harmful.

UA_Hammer · 2016-06-16T16:25:17+00:00

Competition, aggressiveness, perseverance, discipline, competence.

tiposk · 2016-06-16T16:58:51+00:00

Except feminism has an agenda to go beyond we are equal and denounce things that are inherently male. Men are aggressive. Men desire women for sex; do not look at women as sex objects. These two things are bad. Do not be aggressive, do not desire women for sex.

The key problems with this assumption with this assumption is that only males objectify or are aggressive and only male traits can be considered toxic.

Sexual desire is natural to both men and women and although women are less likely to see casual sex as good, they are also likely to see as a sexual object a guy they don't desire for anything else. Difference is that women are less receptive to sexual advances thus more likely to feel offended when those are unwanted. I've seen cases where women are the ones pursuing men for sex, and most males also get annoyed.

Generally I don't think the problem with most people is that women are seen as sexually desirable, but the fact that some men (and women) show these desires in a desperate and pushy manner. There is a big difference between a man that starts a normal conversation with a woman and backs off if he sees she's not interested and one that comes to her looking at her tits, making sexual comments about her and refuses to stop when she shows rejection towards him.

The same can be said of aggressiveness. For obvious reasons, women are less likely to manifest it physically. For this reason, when women are being aggressive it's less likely to be harmful, but it's still considered inappropriate. In any case, intensity and context matter. There are guys that might get aggressive to defend themselves an there are other that display great aggressiveness in any case, even when it's not needed. This is what people, men and women dislike.

Also, there are certain aspects of stereotypical femininity that are also constantly shamed: being a gold-digger, manipulative, constantly helpless and vain.

What is masculinity?

Masculinity and femininity are part of the same continuum so it's hard to define the point a certain characteristic stops being masculine. I guess that any type of stereotypically masculine behavior that's not excessive and harmful, is good. Most importantly, people should be aspire to be the best of themselves instead of masculine or feminine. Fact is that the average person's brain is a mix of masculine and feminine traits, less than 10% are 100% masculine or feminine, which means that aspiring to be one or the other is in itself harmful to many people because it's not natural.

OfSpock · 2016-06-16T20:57:20+00:00

I thought toxic masculinity was when the societal limits of masculinity were enforced to the detriment of the man eg. a man won't seek therapy because it's not manly and is depressed/commits suicide.

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alreadyredschool · 2016-06-16T15:37:20+00:00

What is masculinity?

ifelsedowhile · 2016-06-17T02:26:31+00:00

the article includes the usual retarded inphographic that equates accusation of rape with certified rapist and dishonestly inflates the number with unreported rape estimates.

shoup88 · 2016-06-16T16:49:10+00:00

If you think that the blue pill stance is "do not desire women for sex" then you are greatly misinformed. I would suggest engaging with more blue pillers and making an effort to understand them if you'd like to improve your theory.

Koffing · 2016-06-16T15:22:43+00:00

Owning a penis and acting in your own interests.

BluePiller1776 · 2016-06-16T19:21:46+00:00

Men are aggressive. Men desire women for sex; do not look at women as sex objects. These two things are bad. Do not be aggressive, do not desire women for sex.

No one is saying that you can never be aggressive or to not desire sex with women.

You can still do an aggressive sales pitch, you can play an aggressive game of hockey, those are all fine. Its physical aggression that the problem.

You can still desire women for sex, every straight feminist still has a sex drive. Women do not want to be treated as solely sexual object. They dont want to be harrased walking down the street. They dont want to have to get messaged like these. They dont want to have their entire worth determined by how much you want to fuck them.

Those are toxic masculine qualities.

What is masculinity?

My definition of masculinity

What is Toxic Masculinity

An example of toxic masculinity at work

The Red Pill is Toxic Masculinity

The Blue Pill is just as harmful

What is masculinity?

Comments

Title	What is masculinity?
Author	jc_reddit
Upvotes	10
Comments	109
Date	June 16, 2016 11:11 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4ocsmc/what_is_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-is-masculinity.274316 https://theredarchive.com/post/274316