Graduating with a Mrs degree

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There's no reason women, whether STEM or not, can't earn their own way. My daughter is doing it, no engineering degree unfortunately but she's still doing much better than any of her male friends. She also is well aware that we would have serious words if I ever detect any MRS vibes from her. I innoculated her against that bullshit since she could talk. At the same time she really laments how so many (all?) of her age group are doing exactly what the women in this photo are hopefully mocking- they are all looking for wall-street types to carry them off. Meanwhile, my daughter is actually a wall street type and finds that the firm completely discourages makeup, objectification, etc and instead even have a program where a senior executive brings them out to talk about the need for them to be self-reliant and aggressive. I was not happy, initially, about her getting involved where she is but on hearing this I was delighted. How ironic that the very industry so many woman dream of marrying into actively discourages the women who actually work in it from thinking and acting that way.

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Concisely she's self-reliant enough that she isn't bound by hypergamy to marry up in terms of professional success.

She isn't economically dependent on "marrying up," but the vast majority of women (even successful ones) are still hardwired to not be satisfied with "marrying down."

In other words, she could be turned on by the "bad boy" construction worker, but she is highly unlikely to want to marry the guy and start a family with him.

I don't even really know what to say about her being un-feminine. We don't really know anything about her to be making those calls unless you describe any woman who supports herself as un-feminine.

Her father wrote approvingly of this:

Meanwhile, my daughter is actually a wall street type and finds that the firm completely discourages makeup, objectification, etc and instead even have a program where a senior executive brings them out to talk about the need for them to be self-reliant and aggressive.

These are not feminine traits. They are masculine ones.

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*Incidentally, I hate the term "divorce rape." Adding "rape" to anything you consider bad erodes the real meaning of "rape" as "forced sex," and is a common feminist tactic.

I see your point for sure. However, the reason "divorce rape" is such an apt term is because it is the theft of a currency from a man that a woman wants (that is his continued provisioning/money).

Conversely, "rape" as we traditionally think of it is the theft of a currency from a woman that a man wants (sex).

I don't know the particulars, but I would imagine the term "divorce rape" was popularized by men in order to counter the blatant absurdity of the whole "rape culture" paradigm. Given it was such a common "feminist tactic," I would imagine some men wanted to throw it back in their face. Again, not sure, but that is exactly what I would have done.

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This is true.

If you don't want kids, then more power to you - spin those plates until you're childless and old and let your line die out. It's a personal decision that you must weigh out priorities in order to reach a conclusion on. For many of us, we still want to have children and as of now you can't do that without a woman participating.

There are good women out there. Quite a few on /r/RedPillWomen for instance. If a TRP man marries someone with that mindset and it doesn't work out, then that's a bummer and all of my sympathy goes towards them. If some man marries a career-minded, "independent woman", who has feminist ideals and wears the pants in the relationship then that man gets no sympathy from me. He was an idiot for marrying someone like that in the first place.

I think there's really two coexisting ideologies present here. Men who want to game women and men who want to create a family the smart way. I have no issue with either camp but the goals and ideals of the two don't usually coincide.

The bottom line is that marriage isn't always a bad idea and having kids isn't always a bad idea either. It's entirely dependent on the type of man and the type of woman involved. It can still work provided that both are decent people with a relationship that is at least somewhat traditional in nature.

[–]harkrank 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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I suppose it could mean different things to different people. At the very least, the common denominator is acknowledgment of the fundamental differences between the behavior, desires, and motivations of men and women.

In this case I was specifically referring to the type of women in the /r/RedPillWomen community. They are red pill in that they see through the feminist rhetoric that the media pushes on women these days. Many of them are making the conscious decision to lead a traditional lifestyle. That usually means that they accept a supportive role in a family unit with the husband/father taking up the roles of leader and provider.

Opinions differ, I'm sure, but that is the type of woman I'd consider to be a RPW. I suppose a woman who is aware of the truths that RP men consider to be self-evident is red pill as well, regardless of whether that influences her opinion on how to live her own life.

[–]major_tom38 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Pubesauce 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So basically a woman who wants to be a housewife?

I didn't say anything about her having to be a housewife. She can choose to be a housewife or not. That isn't the biggest factor in determining if she is a RPW. The relationship is red pill if the man is seen as protector, provider, and leader. The details about how that is arranged is open to interpretation based on the preferences of that particular couple.

Is there no middle ground between feminazi's and women who are completely submissive?

A RPW is aware of her situation and is making a conscious decision to engage in that lifestyle. It isn't the same as being born into an oppressive culture and put into an arranged marriage at 14. The difference is that the RPW chooses to live that way. That isn't oppression and there is no injustice in it. A woman can choose to be a housewife who is submissive to her husband just as she can choose to be a childless career woman.

I have no problem with women choosing to take care of kids but I don't think I could respect a woman who just bows down to her husband and lets him control her life.

You're portraying this lifestyle as something inherently negative. That is the propaganda talking. It's only negative if the woman doesn't want to be a part of it but is forced anyways. Many women enjoy the role of being a submissive, supportive wife and mother.

Why does one have to have significantly more power than the other?

They don't necessarily have to. However many women actually prefer to have a man lead them through life. They admire their husbands and trust their judgment. There's nothing immoral about that. They've chosen that way of life and you should respect that.

Submission does not necessarily equal oppression. For many, submission brings with it a release from neurosis and worry. Most women (though not all) are more comfortable in a supportive role. Many women even feel this way deep down (and subconsciously seek leadership traits out in mates) yet deny it because they feel ashamed that it doesn't line up with feminist rhetoric. They experience cognitive dissonance in that they want to fulfill both the role of the submissive wife and mother and the empowered independent woman. They're stuck in a state of confusion and self-loathing because of it. The media pulls them one way and their instincts pull them another way. A RPW is a woman who decides to follow her instincts rather than the media.

[–]1Zackcid 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]billiegoad2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Pubesauce 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

If a man is going to get married he should marry a 'career-minded, "independent woman", who has feminist ideals and wears the pants in the relationship' and then quit his job and be a stay at home dad.

Good luck finding a decent woman who will go for this. And have fun dealing with the shame that will be heaped upon you by others for not providing for your family. Also, enjoy thinking about your career wife enjoying alpha cocks on business trips.

There's been so many stories passed around TRP about what tends to happen when a woman out earns a man. Hypergamy kicks into high gear and she's gone before you know it.

Then when she no longer fancies his average sized reproductive appendage after pushing out a few kids, and wants the over sized alpha male which is now a better fit, he can take her to divorce court and get paid ! I supported a lazy ass baby breeder for 20 years and lost my ass in family court. Prostitution is alive and well with the pimps working out of your local family courts.

All of this just sounds like bitter frustration. I'm sorry your marriage didn't work out for you. That doesn't mean that it can't work out for others. And you're doing this sub no favors by playing right into the stereotype of us all being bitter divorcees whose wives took us to the cleaners. You ended up with a shitty wife, that is all.

50% of marriages fail - that is an oft repeated statistic around here. What many people forget is that the other 50% succeed. You picked poorly and reaped the consequences of that poor choice.

[–]billiegoad1 points 12 years ago [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

But if 6 in 10 marriages fail, why should any earner take a chance? That's just silly to say that I just made a poor choice. Relationships fizzle and that's why marriages end up in divorce. (from dictionary.com) FAMILIARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT The better we know people, the more likely we are to find fault with them. Long experience of someone or something can make one so aware of the faults as to be scornful. For example, Ten years at the same job and now he hates it familiarity breeds contempt . The idea is much older, but the first recorded use of this expression was in Chaucer's Tale of Melibee (c. 1386).

So divorce happens. Since my divorce I'm quite content to have 18 to 30 month relationships. You run out of shit to talk about and do. The sex gets stale. No woman is going to fuck me out of my income and assets a second time. I won't be that fool 50 and broke going through divorce #4. Suckers. See /r/killmarriage Funny thing is, the guy my ex dumped me for cheated on her after about 2 years and still refuses to marry her. Ha ha.

[–]Pubesauce 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

But if 6 in 10 marriages fail, why should any earner take a chance?

Because if you want a family that is what you have to do. Very few decent women are willing to cohabitate and produce children for you without a solid commitment (which usually means marriage).

So divorce happens. Since my divorce I'm quite content to have 18 to 30 month relationships. You run out of shit to talk about and do. The sex gets stale. No woman is going to fuck me out of my income and assets a second time.

I think maybe you're misunderstanding what I said. I wasn't trying to convince anyone that they had to get married and have kids to be RP. Plate-spinners and family men are both equally RP - just different paths using the same understanding of human nature. If you want to spin plates and dabble in casual sex then go for it man. I see nothing wrong with that. What I was disagreeing with was the blanket statement that ALL men who marry or have kids are retarded. That's just not true. There are many healthy, functioning marriages between people who are RP (whether they know it or not) that go on to live long, happy lives together raising kids they are proud of. Maybe in your area that isn't true, but in midwest suburbia I see it every day. Happy traditional families everywhere out here.

Funny thing is, the guy my ex dumped me for cheated on her after about 2 years and still refuses to marry her. Ha ha.

Stop being bitter, man. It's ugly. You're speaking like the male equivalent of a crusty old spinster who blames men for her ending up as a lonely cat lady.

Let the anger go. Realize that women act out of instinct. Understand that instinct and react accordingly to get what you want. There's no reason to carry on with this deep resentment towards women that you have. There are certainly disgusting women out there who will destroy your life if they get the chance - I acknowledge that, but seeing women solely through a resentful lens will only bring more unhappiness to your life. They're neither inherently good or evil, same as us. Just learn to understand why they do what they do and adjust your appearance/behavior/demeanor to benefit from interacting with them.

[–]billiegoad1 points 12 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Midwest ! hah ! I'm in the midwest. And I see the statistic play out over and over. 6 in 10 marriages fizzle. I don't hate women. I'm exposing the scam that is marriage, job security for divorce lawyers. I have a bud who is married for the 5th time. What is he trying to accomplish please tell me? Is he like a dog pissing on a tree trying to mark his territory? How did man kind manage to evolve over millions of years without it? lol

Relationships fizzle and that's why marriages end up in divorce. (from dictionary.com) FAMILIARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT The better we know people, the more likely we are to find fault with them. Long experience of someone or something can make one so aware of the faults as to be scornful. For example, Ten years at the same job and now he hates it familiarity breeds contempt . The idea is much older, but the first recorded use of this expression was in Chaucer's Tale of Melibee (c. 1386).

[–]Pubesauce1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]billiegoad1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pubesauce1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh so upper class marriages are immune from divorce? Ha !

Better educated, and higher earning couples tend to get divorced less often, yes.

Check out the celeb track records.

Because anomalies disprove a trend? Celebrities are so negligible in number that they are irrelevant to the trend at large.

You never answered my question. Why get married in the first place? Can't love just keep us together? Why does it have to be a legal binding contract which is pretty much a license for the government's pimps to redistribute your income and assets at a future date?

If you can convince a decent woman to live with you and help raise children then go for it. Nothing wrong with that. However, I've met very few RP-minded women who would tolerate such an arrangement. They tend to believe in tradition and part of that is marriage.

[–]billiegoad1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And why do you think no woman is likely to go for the non marriage route? Because they are smarter than dumb young men. As well the knuckle heads who go back for divorce 2 3 4 and 5. Why do you think Oprah doesn't get married. Dumb Tiger did. Let's see if he's dumb enough to get married a second time. A woman who says I won't have sex with you indefinitely unless we're married is baiting the hook.

And I'm not so sure about your class theory making marriage more ever lasting. This still applies to rich as well as poor: Relationships fizzle and that's why marriages end up in divorce. (from dictionary.com) FAMILIARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT The better we know people, the more likely we are to find fault with them. Long experience of someone or something can make one so aware of the faults as to be scornful. For example, Ten years at the same job and now he hates it familiarity breeds contempt . The idea is much older, but the first recorded use of this expression was in Chaucer's Tale of Melibee (c. 1386).

Let me guess, you think our armed forces are fighting for you freedom?

[–]Pubesauce1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And why do you think no woman is likely to go for the non marriage route?

Because they desire a sense of stability and security. But again, if you can find a woman who is okay with making a family without marriage then go for it. Family court will likely still consider you common-law married though.

And I'm not so sure about your class theory making marriage more ever lasting.

Well, you are free to look it up. I'm on my phone right now so I'm not feeling inclined to do the leg work.

Relationships fizzle and that's why marriages end up in divorce. (from dictionary.com) FAMILIARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT The better we know people, the more likely we are to find fault with them. Long experience of someone or something can make one so aware of the faults as to be scornful. For example, Ten years at the same job and now he hates it familiarity breeds contempt . The idea is much older, but the first recorded use of this expression was in Chaucer's Tale of Melibee (c. 1386).

Why do you keep posting this? You frequently repost other things you've said as well. Its not a groundbreaking concept. We're all familiar with it.

Anyways, I'm off to bed now. Just focus on doing what makes you happy in life. Let go of the anger. Women can't stand bitter, resentful men.

Let me guess, you think our armed forces are fighting for you freedom?

This has been a long, weird tangent filled conversation...

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Eh, they'll get thrown out of court if it seems "unfair" to the woman actually. So prenups are pretty unreliable unless you have an extremely competent legal team and she has a shitty one.

It's a risk. It comes down to being a risk you take or don't. Some people find the payoff (a wife and kids to experience life with) to be worth the risk and some don't. I don't look down on those who are unwilling to take that risk because I understand why they're hesitant, but at the same time I think saying that anyone who gets married or has kids is retarded is taking it a bit far.

It's all about finding a woman who is aware of herself and accepts traditional gender roles. Vapid idiot women who are status obsessed are not marriage material, regardless of the man. I think TRP forgets sometimes that there are some decent women out there who haven't bought into the bullshit from the media.

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[–]Lord_Varys 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

What an ignorant world view. Marrying has many benefits. Someone to cook and clean and maintain your temple. Steady sex when you want it. Someone to raise your children so that when you're old and falling apart, you have a family to take care of you. I don't know about you, but family is the most important thing in my life. There can be no families if men don't marry women.

Just cohabitate, you say? The good women who will do all the things I listed won't put up with that. They'll find another man who's willing to commit. If she's a good girl, she cares about what her dad has to say. And a good traditional father won't put up with their girls cohabitating with men for their whole lives.

The pool of LTR-material, TRP-compatible women is already small enough. Refuse to commit and you'd better have male-model looks and lots of money, because that pool shrinks to a small puddle if that's how you want to play.

Don't want kids? Fine. Don't want the benefits of a monogamous relationship? Good on you, spin plates till you die.

But if you want a family, just do it the right way, vetting the girl closely, and understand the risk.

[–]bassivemalls 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]major_tom38 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lord_Varys 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

How can you ever be 100% sure, though.

You can't. But that's the point. It's risk/reward. You don't avoid casinos because you can never be 100% sure you'll make money. But if you value / desire the unique benefits, you do what you can to minimize the risk and then take it.

Every divorced guy I've talked to said that the woman they divorced was not the woman they married. She used to be sweet and affectionate and as soon as they got married she turned into a manipulative venomous bitch who would constantly nag them.

So you're at this casino, and you wait until you get pocket queens or higher, and once you do, you commit to a big pot. These hands will lose sometimes, yeah. But because a bunch of guys get a bad beat on pocket rockets doesn't mean you don't play that hand. It's still a good bet -- playing conservative and waiting for a big one.

Look, I'm with you. Marriage changes women, some to far greater degrees than others. But if you exercise TRP truths leading up to the marriage, and maintain your frame afterwards, she's not going to be a venemous bitch that constantly nags you. If she does turn into that woman, you've proven yourself to be a pretty poor judge of character, or inept when practicing TRP truths, and have no one but yourself to blame.

I understand in some marriages the couple lives happily ever after, but it just seems like a crap shoot to me. I'd want nothing more than to be married to a wonderful woman, but the thought of losing half my net worth to a vindictive bitch just scares the hell out of me. I just can't take that chance.

Again, I'd say it's less of the craps table and more of the poker table. You can control your odds better than any there. There probably isn't a "sure bet" out there, and most guys can wait around for 30 years, waiting on those pocket rockets, and still not find the right cards to play. It is about risk/reward, you're right. But the guy I was replying to was trying to say there's absolutely no reward involved. To him, maybe not -- it is subjective. But no rational person can say that someone who values family above all would realize no benefits from a marriage.

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Self-actualization is a never-ending Journey reserved only to a few of us, generally males. Recently, I took a biology course and was saddened by how deeply beta this fucking teacher was. He'd go as far as make a fool of himself just so the class would laugh and give him validation. Absolutely pathetic.

I then thought to myself...damn, this guys' almost 40 years old. It fucking SUCKS that he's achieved so little self-actualization in all these years. I'm a little over half his age and I've already surpassed him in many aspects. I'm guessing he must have stayed within his comfort zone his entire life, rather than constantly seeking to challenge himself and grow.

Two men I can think of who are on the right path of Self-Actualization are Owen Cook (RSD Tyler) and Elliott Hulse. All growing boys should look up to their examples, especially Elliott.

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Stop bluepilling this shit up. Not everything of one group is same, we all know that but statistically speaking you're relationship and your woman are not going to be the exception. Your marriage is likely to end in divorce, you're likely to lose and pay a disproportionate amount in alimony and child support, you're likely to lose equal custody of your kid. That's why we say don't marry. You're not playing the odds, friend.

You're woman isn't going to be a unicorn. She is going to fall to the same inherent biological and societal imperatives. She's going to shit test you, lose interest if you're too beta or after four years, going to branch swing if something good enough comes along, she's going to say everything counter to what she actually wants or thinks, she' going to prioritize emotion over reason.

Once you understand these things and stop treating each female as the one, you will no longer fall into these likely-to-fail situations. You won't marry anyone, or live together for long enough to get common law-ed, or have kids and get your finances.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Statistically? So you make all your choices on the average statistics of a population? You must not be very ambitious. I've worked hard and managed to consistently get into top schools and jobs. Why would I suddenly go for an average women?

Statistically speaking, a bit under half of people experience divorce, whereas more than half of marriages end in divorce. They are different. Moreover, divorce rates vary by demographic. Well educated white urban couples who marry after age 25 have far far far lower divorce rates than the average. So, in that case, you are less likely to have a relationship fail. Not to mention that individuals have idiosnycratic risk factors that are not measured by census data. If two individuals work very hard it is not at all uncommon for them to have a successful marriage, it happens all the time. Don't deny reality just because it clashes against your biases. There ARE happy successful couples, there are demographics with lower divorce rates, and there are women who are generally great and wonderful people. And if you would rather not go for that life because you don't think you have the ability to find, woo, or pick the right women, that's fine. But it's incorrect to say others must be 'bluepill' for not agreeing with you on that point.

I find it strange people here always talk about self-improvement and trying to be your best, then say "Oh we only ever talk about the average women, no point talking about anything else."

[–]Sufferix 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It is a fallacy to believe that any person is able to evaluate another person better than simply guessing they are the average of a population?

So if you see a decrepit prostitute and a kind and pretty 24 year old, you just assume each is average? Obviously you do not. But to push that further it's not absurd to imagine that some people have the ability to evaluate the character of another based on their actions, personality, and family. Nothing in life is riskless, of course. So then you do your best to evaluate what you think is a high quality female, and then date her for some time. Over that time you can get a strong belief for the type of person she is or is not.

Of course, you never live for her. You live for yourself and your own ambitions, so if things go wrong you aren't left with nothing.

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The women in elite colleges are playing a different game. Most of them came from upper-middle class or higher backgrounds. They have family wealth, so they are not burdened with college debt, and they only marry among themselves (other upper-middle or higher with elite educations) and have very low divorce rates. With the type of money that two adults with elite educations pull, they don't have to work many years before the woman can choose to stop working. It doesn't make any sense for her to work anyways giving how taxes work, the second worker in the household is only bringing home ~50 cents on the dollar after taxes. Most of their wealth is built through capital gains. And they have substantial estates from their wealthy parents. By the time kids come into play, the child's grandparents are in the phase of their life where they are doing significant estate planning and have likely started distributing assets already. It actually makes far more sense for the woman to focus all her efforts onto raising her child right rather than working. Nobody gets rich from W-2 income.

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[–]TRP VanguardWhisper 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

"If you listen to the tone of the conversation, it has improved over the last 30 years. First, the underlying tone of the articles/conversations were 'everyone isn't that way' and then it transitioned to 'I'm not that way' then 'I'm only that way because I was taught it, but I'm working on changing it' (etc, etc)

Listening to the "wisdom" of 19 year olds is a dubious proposition at best, but this is worth looking at because it helps us notice the major problem with feminism.

The third statement implies, perhaps even contains, the a priori assumption that there are some ways we should and shouldn't be, and that these are so obvious they don't bear talking about.

In other words, feminism is a prescriptive school of thought. It deals out directives rather than observations, and does so from a moral rather than an objective standpoint.

However, you can't get "ought" from "is". Nor can you get "is" from "ought". Which makes answering the inevitable "why" that follows the "should" very difficult indeed.

Feminism clearly takes the stand that women should prefer the diploma to the ring. What it fails to answer is why.

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[–]michael981184 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The article that you cite links off to a contradictory page: http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/12/gender-wage-gap-in-obamas-white-house-female-staffers-earn-less-than-87-cents-on-the-dollar-compared-to-men/

Here's an article that debunks the debunk: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/21/wage-gap-myth-reasons-to-believe-its-real_n_3478606.html

With so much confusing, contradictory data out there, which side do we end up on? I find that people end up believing what they already believed and are just looking for data to confirm it.

I've hired and fired over 50 people while building a company over the last 6 years. I can confirm that I pay women less. Know why? Every. single. man. negotiates and asks for raises. Women don't. It's real from my perspective because I've lived it.

Women like to sit back and let the data speak for themselves. Men like to push and ask for more. I give to those who ask for it.

[–]michael98118-2 points 12 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kaelteth -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh for fucks sake, you're going to cite as evidence against me a "study" that takes nothing but the median earnings of white house staffers as comparison? One that doesn't even touch seniority levels, overtime rates, and what pay grid people are on based on the job they do.

Oh, and your anecdote is wonderful. I've hired many people in both the public and private sectors, and in my case they were put into the corresponding pay grid based on the position, experience, education, and negotiation, and I have some men that make more than women, and I have some women that make more than men. Cool story tho bro, about as useless in a debate as my story.

Sorry man, but I call bullshit.

You're plugged in.

I'm married - over 20 years. I actually believe in egalitarianism. I have my "unicorn" - a good woman that was an amazing mother to our kids, and now has a great career in Early Childhood Education. I share RP knowledge with her, and she pretty much agrees 100% with everything taught on this sub. I'm not a plate spinner, I don't give a fuck about the game, but I'm still the fucking man of the house too...something you need to learn.

I hope your girl succeeds in her choice of career...good on her for being smart as nails. But that doesn't mean shit about fuck when it comes to RP Theory.

[–]fairies_wear_boots -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

He should respect you just based on your age since he thinks he has so much more experience than her since he's ten or so years older than her. He sounds (and this is totally a guess based on the rubbish shit he's spouting here, we all make judgement off what we have infront of us right?) that he has had a rather sheltered life, if he hadn't I am pretty sure he wouldn't be saying the things he has on here.. So therefore based off what he's said you must be right anyway. I can't STAND feminists and I'm a chick. Oh wow, hard done by little girls don't earn as much money as men? Then they are doing it wrong. I'm 100% sure that the only reason women wouldn't earn as much as a man is because they are not doing as good a job as they are or they have a sexist boss, which doesn't say that the whole word does not treat women and men equally... There are PLENTLY of sexist females out there who do not treat men as equals. Fact is the feminists I have come across in my life time only want to go into bat for women, where if they really want equality, they should be going into bat for both men and women who are not treated fairly. Ugh it disgusts me.

Edit: words... On phone and have a horrific headache so don't have my brain in check tonight.

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[–]michael98118-2 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (14 children) | Copy Link

Better for whom?

Society is coming closer to a gender neutral balance. The pay gap is closing and awareness is increasing. For example, gays are accepted in society (in general) instead of rejected.

Things have not improved for family-minded males.

This has not been my experience. Sure, girls that are "Tens" are having a ton of fun being the center of attention, though for every one of them there are many other women who would prefer to find something long term. If you're having a hard time finding someone to stay around, maybe you're not up to par? (I find that humans like to complain about 'how things are' externally rather than improve themselves internally).

ideological stance is firmly opposed to your own.

I enjoy the conflict, as it challenges my world views and makes me evaluate/defend my beliefs. My strength is not challenged by her strength. If anything, we influence each other. We mellow each other out. (You are the average of your 5 closest friends).

A story comes to mind.

(She's a strong woman who values her intellect above emotion). She came across my computer with Facebook open and a former FWB girl that I dated had messaged me, asking how OkCupid was going (I'm no longer a member). I walked in on her in the shower to find her eyes red. She says: "I'm a mess right now and you shouldn't look at me. I'm crazy."

"What's wrong?" I say.

"I saw your gf message you on fb, you had some porn left open on your computer (you know I hate it that you watch it), and your friend XXX (the one that told you not to date me) had posted something anti-woman on FB again. I'm going crazy and I want time alone"

I smile at her warmly. "It's ok. Keep talking. I can take it." I step into the shower and give her a bear hug.

She gives me her diatribe. (You shouldn't watch porn. You shouldn't be FB friends with your ex's. You shouldn't be friends with XXX since he bad mouths women).

I hug her and smile. (I understand how you feel. You'll want me to be your FB friend when we break up. My friends are free to think how they will).

If she wants to go crazy and break up with me over X, Y, or Z difference of opinions, then so be it. I'll be sorry to see her go. We're both in the relationship because we love it.

She can act/feel how she desires. I will do the same. I'm not threatened by it.

My personal interpretation of TRP is to lead by being strong and having the better answers. (As opposed to finding a woman that will follow me because I have a penis).

[–]butter1rum 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]p3ndulum 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Right. Women with children can't realistically be compared to men because they take more time off of work so have less income to report.

Would you suggest that, in order to eliminate the income gap, women with children who work on farms be paid more than the average man (across the board)?

The alleged pay gap mostly exists because when you total up all of the women and all of the men together, you are including women who work less and retire earlier, so of course it'll show that they are pulling fewer wages.

What this report is meant to illustrate is that when men and women are the same age and neither of them have children ("equal"), women are being paid more than men are.

A lot of that has to do with how the education is designed to favour women, mostly taught by female teachers, and also how many more "affirmative action" programs there are to help women get things like scholarships and internships.

There are only exactly two ways to close the income gap. The first is to pay women more than men, and the second is to reset all wages and lock them in. Since you're never going to get an agreement to reset wages, the only practical strategy is to find a way to make it more difficult to men to find employment ("check your privilege, shit lord") and/or start women off at higher wages.

[–]dlmedn 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]michael981180 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't think the goal is (or should be) the same pay. Income should be an accurate measure of value. Feminists claim (maybe correctly or incorrectly, who really knows) that income is not an accurate measure of value. Instead, they claim that women have more (or at least equal) value and are unfairly paid less just because they are a woman.

Feminists believe that men and women are of equal skill and the pay gap is due to sexism. TRP believe that the pay gap is due to a skill/experience gap and that the system works. (Or even further, that the pay gap is a lie designed to further an agenda).

Who's right? Honestly I think it's impossible to prove either way. There's data that supports both claims. People spend a lot of time mis-citing various "studies" that prove each side of the debate. Debunking the debunk.

I take the stance of the spoon doesn't exist (as opposed to 'it's bent' or 'it's straight'). I think it's very plausible that gender X has a "slight disadvantage" within the context of Y. But if you zoom out to other contexts, the situation reverses. So at the end of the day stop bitching about the world and start learning to play the game

For example. Let's say that my gf starts bitching about how unfair it is that women have to bleed every month. I suggest that it must be nice to have your sexual value displayed externally, so you don't have to worry about internal value. At the end of the day, each ~~World of Warcraft race~~ gender has their own benefits and it's all a wash anyway. It's human nature to bitch and moan about the world rather than get better at it.

[–]p3ndulum 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Regardless of the reason for the gap, this is a game that will never end.

Like I mentioned, in order to eliminate it (the gap), you have to either pay women more or men less, or reset wages.

Or, to get a more accurate measurement of how things are changing, only collect data from identical groups like in the link, instead of comparing all working men against all working women.

If you include men who have been working for 20+ years and also women who are the same age, of course it'll show that there is a gap. And if you keep including those older salaries, which are being adjusted (raises/overtime, etc) all of the time, the gap will never close.

The only way to close it is to stop giving men raises or start them at lower salaries than women in their peer group. And then what will eventually happen is the gap will flip, and then the cycle starts all over again but with th roles reversed.

Like, say that a man and a woman started working 20 years ago, and maybe the started out at the same wage and maybe they didn't, today it would maybe show that he is making more than her. All feminists want to talk about is the difference, but don't really want to hear about how she probably took time off because she got pregnant or maybe because he worked more hours or was more effective at his job or negotiating a higher salary. They'll plug their ears and la la la.

All they want, regardless of how it happens, is that, when the report comes in, the numbers are identical - but that will never happen, regardless of who gets paid what and why.

[–]michael981181 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]dlmedn -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]michael981180 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thanks for citing that. I read something about this recently. It's very interesting.

I heard on NPR news (sorry for lack of citation) that over the last 80 years, students were tracked through their education. Across the board, women tend to do better than men. The gap of grades grows over time.

They attributed this to the way that boys approach the world. Boys do better at tests (short bursts of attention/effort) whereas women do better at actually learning the material. The conclusion of the study is that education needs to cater better towards boys. They suggest doing this by making learning a competition, since boys react strongly/positively to competitive activities.

It's an interesting thought. Is it accurate? I have no idea, I heard it on the radio. To truly know, one must investigate deeply.

I suggest that the entire debate is an effort of "mankind" to complain about the world. Too much effort is spent proving inequality. (Maybe my apathy on the topic proves I have no future in sociology).

[–]Pubesauce -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Society is coming closer to a gender neutral balance. The pay gap is closing and awareness is increasing. For example, gays are accepted in society (in general) instead of rejected.

Did you get lost? This isn't /r/MensRights - we aren't trying to advance politically correct egalitarianism.

I enjoy the conflict, as it challenges my world views and makes me evaluate/defend my beliefs.

I suppose that you are entitled to whatever lifestyle you find enjoyable. I wouldn't find that enjoyable. Women are free to hold whatever beliefs they find appropriate - I just would prefer to be with a like-minded person.

(As opposed to finding a woman that will follow me because I have a penis).

I don't think anyone here was advocating that to begin with. You have to produce a valid reason for a woman to follow you. That doesn't mean that because she's following you that she is somehow oppressed.

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Title	Graduating with a Mrs degree
Author	ButterMyBiscuit
Upvotes	155
Comments	230
Date	May 12, 2014 5:33 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/25dhw0/graduating_with_a_mrs_degree/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/graduating-with-a-mrs-degree.15323 https://theredarchive.com/post/15323

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