Is MRA ideology anti feminist?

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2021-05-11T03:21:12+00:00

Once again I am making this an announcement temporarily so that /u/InfinitySky1999 can get some decent answers.

They're coming here from /r/feminismuncensored in presumably good faith to have a discussion. And I think that having these discussions is important.

But as such. Please do not consider the opinions espoused here to be endorsed by the sub.

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2021-05-11T03:57:25+00:00

TO answer myself, Yes. Because it's necessary.

The Welcome Among Us post in our sidebar gives a pretty good explanation.

Many here once identified as feminists, but dared to question some aspects of how it is practiced, mainly by big institutions/associations, and were pretty much shamed and rejected for it. Since then, through actually looking at what is done under the banner, many have come to think of feminism, as is practiced, as something radically different from the nice sounding "movement for equality", and more as something pushing all sorts ormf really harmful things on society, men in particular, but that also has all sorts of negative impacts on women.

you might be familiar with it if you've ever read anything about people who escaped from cults. someone who discovers that they have been lied to their whole life, but finally discover the truth, and gets pissed at people they perceive as being still in the cult and propagating its harmful effects on others. And so they lash out in anger at those they perceive as trying to pull them or other back into the cult.

Of course, people who enter a cult also think that they are the ones who have discovered the truth, and that those outside are the ones standing in the way of salvation and harming others, and are angry at them.

I would suggest that a good way to determine on which side you're on is to look for which side will allow for people to openly question things and disagree, and which side will try to use shame, social aggression, ostracism, and, on social media, banning and silencing tactics to avoid dissent.

Know that people here take feminism to mean "the collection of actions and beliefs pushed by groups and academics and agencies who call themselves feminists", and not "the equality of men and women" or "women's rights". That's something key to keep in mind when reading here. Like you've been told already, people here are generally egalitarian, but perceive the various things undertaken under the name of feminism to be detrimental to men, and very often women.

MeatyElfThighs · 2021-05-11T07:13:02+00:00

I'm pro-female advocacy but anti-feminist because feminist groups seek a monopoly on advocacy in general, to the extent that they aggressively push male advocacy onto the fringes of society.

Basically I think everyone should self-advocate and groups that have attempted to remove the voices of others in direct fashion have tainted a good thing and should be destroyed.

LettuceBeGrateful · 2021-05-11T15:02:34+00:00

I know you're being downvoted, but every time I see this asked I feel compelled to say it's a great question. People have different perceptions about what feminism even is, let alone what it's done, so why do we make blanket statements about feminism, instead of merely zeroing in on the bad ones?

The simple answer is that it's the "slave-owning" feminists who have increasingly controlled the narrative, and perhaps more importantly, policy. The so-called "bad ones" are in charge. For example:

Women's advocacy groups, including feminists, fought against the Equal Rights Amendment a generation ago, in part on the basis that women would lose special entitlements if held to an equal standard. Due to the lack of protection which would have been afforded under the ERA, men are specifically excluded from having the legal right to genital integrity, and only men are obligated to sign up for the Selective Service.
Genital mutilation continues to be needlessly gendered in both law and everyday discourse. For example, Equality Now published an official pamphlet stating that male genital mutilation does not damage the male genitals. A major feminist magazine published an op-ed calling FGM "radically separate" from male circumcision, which ironically, can only be done by ignoring the large number of FGM survivors who are victims of less destructive procedures. Blaming FGM on feminism's patriarchy theory misdiagnoses the problem: "female genital surgery should not be blamed on men or on patriarchy." This gives FGM advocates ammunition to continue the practice.
Mary P. Koss, one of the most decorated feminists of the past few decades, published seminal research on rape that resulted in the current legal definition of rape: forced penetration. (Here she is in 2015, at timestamp 8:30, claiming that a man is not raped, even if drugged and physically forced into sex. She considers it merely "unwanted contact.") As a result of this definition, multiple American government agencies do not account for female-on-male rape, and false statistics are still published to this day saying that the vast majority of rape victims are women. In reality half of rape victims are men.
The Duluth model, an explicitly feminist paradigm and the most common DV-intervention program in the USA, assumes that "domestic violence is the result of patriarchal ideology in which men are encouraged and expected to control their partners." This results in male abuse victims being more likely than their abusers to be arrested.
The National Organization for Women has torpedoed alimony and child support reform which had both popular and bipartisan support. (They also tweeted last year that men who are suing schools for unjust expulsion are bullies and rapists, which is an alarming disregard for the men's presumption of innocence.)

I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that at the individual level, there are tons of people who self-identify as feminists and practice what they preach re. equality. My first therapist was a self-identified feminist, and she was one of the most pro-man people I've ever met.

The problem is that when we start talking about things at an institutional level, the good feminists fade into the background and become irrelevant. It's pointless to define an ideology based on the inconsequential feelings of the well-intentioned while the malicious bigots are the ones affecting society.

McNultyLikesJameson · 2021-05-11T11:25:23+00:00

I'm opposed to most forms of feminism. I'd support a form of feminism that was simply advocating for women's issues, as long as it didn't mean pushing men's issues to the fringes of society.

The clue is in the name - "feminism". You can't have a movement that is about gender equality, if it approaches it from the pre-determined standpoint that women are the ones affected by it.

It leads to an automatic removal of focus on male victims of things like domestic violence, sexual abuse, harassment, poverty, violence etc. There's also a lot of ideology woven into the fabric of feminism that portrays men as oppressors.

It's gotten to the point where there's an abhorrent amount of misandry in mainstream society that is tolerated.

See the furore around Sarah Everard's murder. There was another murder recently (Julia James) and it was treated exactly like I thought Sarah's would - "Oh, that's horrible; I hope they catch whoever did it". No mass outrage or moral panic.

Conversely, Everard's murder was treated as an excuse to bash men and portray us as problematic.

LacklustreFriend · 2021-05-11T10:51:37+00:00

What is 'MRA ideology'? Can you define it? Can you refer to any sources? I'm not talking about what some random nobody has commented online. I'm talking about something that is widely read and accepted.

It's easy to see what feminist ideology is. There's literally an entire academic field built around it. Feminism ideology is fundamentally build around 'patriarchy theory' or that society, current and historic, can best be described as an oppressive patriarchy, or in other words society is structured (by men) to oppress and exploit women. This you find in all manner of feminist texts. You find it in Kate Millet's Sexual Politics. You find it in bell hook's Feminism is for Everybody. You find the underlying sentiment in the earliest elements of 'protofeminism' such as the 1848 Seneca Falls Convention. And of course, you find it embedded in the cultural zeitgeist. Such an idea is not only wrong and a misrepresentation of the relationship between the sexes, but is actively making society worse.

This is the defining feature of feminism. Any would be branch of feminism that does not agree with patriarchy theory does not exist, or has been stamped out. Self described feminists who disagree with patriarchy theory such as Camille Paglia have been completely ostracized from the feminist movement. The largest divide that currently exists within feminism is between the intersectional feminists and the TERFs. Guess what? They're still both firm believers in patriarchy.

The vast majority of criticism and disagreement from within the feminism movement often amounts to 50 Stalins criticism. That is, most criticism of feminism from within feminism amounts to 'that's not feminist enough'. There is no disagreement about the underlying premises of feminism. They are treated as fact, not just by feminism itself, but increasingly by the wider culture which feminism has a monopoly on.

Also, just to be clear, feminism is not the same thing as women, or women's rights. Feminism is an ideology.

Oncefa2 · 2021-05-11T11:54:31+00:00

I'm opposed to radial feminism.

Which is,

the belief that society functions as a patriarchy in which men oppress women

That is the dictionary definition of radical feminism.

And I do not think this ideology is helpful.

I don't have a problem with the dictionary definition "equality of the sexes" feminism. But most feminists I run into end up being the radical kind.

Phantombiceps · 2021-05-11T08:00:22+00:00

You can be against feminism without being against all feminists. Eventually you will need to enter into coalitions with them on a certain single issue, around which they may be doing good work. Bernie Sanders and some “libertarians” would probably enter a coalition to oppose a next Iraq war-for example.

Feminism itself is mistaken at core because all versions of it tie liberation of the sexes to an analogy with class exploitation or of resistance to imperialism. But unlike these, the existence of sexes are not something that vary from epoch to epoch or society to society.

iainmf · 2021-05-11T07:13:53+00:00

Technically most MRAs have liberal feminist beliefs but don't identify as feminists.

A movement can be judge by its actions and effects. The feminist movement consistently opposes, hinders, and undermines men's human rights. Parts of the movement that support men's human rights are negated by the more influential and larger parts of the movement that don't.

For example, the vast majority of feminist and feminist-influenced organisations see gender equality as 'women's equality'. Men's inequalities are ignored. EG

The United Nations entity for gender equality is UN Women
The Sustainable Development Goal for gender equality only mentions women and girls.
The WEF Gender Gap Index explicitly ignores men’s inequalities.

The feminists that do support men's human rights are shunned by the movement. See Cathy Young, Camille Paglia, Christina Hoff Summers, etc. These feminists get much more support from MRAs.

SomethingRand00m998 · 2021-05-11T03:05:25+00:00

Because they refuse to police their own kind. The non-slave owning feminist are complict in the crimes by the ones who do own slaves.

SuspicousEggSmell · 2021-05-11T09:43:20+00:00

As well as other criticisms here, it’s an innately female centric movement. That’s not a problem in and of itself but it is an issue when it has become the default of gender issues to the point where men’s issues are still female centric

DistrictAccurate · 2021-05-11T10:43:04+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/lec134/re_do_you_guys_hate_feminism/

WanabeInflatable · 2021-05-15T14:49:11+00:00

I understand you. For a few years I led a community in VK dedicated to be a neutral ground between feminists and masculists (kind of MRA), we even have a policy against vague/generalization attacks against feminists. I.e. feminists can be bad and do awful things, but let's not generalize, because there are good one that actually support us (while still call themselves feminists).

But here I see different picture - I.e. no good examples of enough feminists sympathetic to MRA cause. Feminists tend to twist things and portray MRA as misogynists, pretend to pursue equality, but oppose equality when it is beneficial for women.

So... is it MRA who is anti feminists or it is feminists who are mostly anti-MRA?

Feminists tend to dismiss misandry as not an issue, portray discrimination of men as mens fault.

Hate is bidirectional. Is it fair to accuse MRA of being antifeminist, while feminists are antiMRM?

a-man-from-earth · 2021-05-11T09:52:53+00:00

Also, there is no MRA ideology. We are simply advocating for equal rights. There is no set of beliefs that we share and promote, other than egalitarianism. And even that isn't shared among all MRAs (unfortunately).

bobbybobsonday · 2021-05-11T06:05:35+00:00

Talking about individual feminists is a waste of time because every movement has its good and bad actors. I'd rather come at this by looking at the fundamental beliefs of all feminists.

In my view the feminist world view rests on this idea of the "oppressive patriarchy". That men are privileged and women are oppressed. Not just today, but through all of history.

MRAs don't have this view of the world and so it's "anti-feminist" by default.

You either subscribe to the male privileged / female oppressed worldview or you don't.

IMO almost any outlook that places one group into "oppressed" and another group into "oppressor" categories... it's toxic, it doesn't help and it only serves to destroy relations between the two groups.

RStonePT · 2021-05-11T17:44:28+00:00

Lol. Why even ask instead of just telling everyone what you think of them?

Save the hassle of pretending it's a discussion

Singdancetypethings · 2021-05-11T19:38:56+00:00

For me, I am not anti-feminist, I am anti-feminism. Similar to how I don't hate the rank-and-file Jehovah's Witnesses or the rank-and-file Scientologists, the ones who were sold a lie, I don't hate the people who genuinely believe the movement they've joined is a movement for good and who can't see the contradictions in the positions they hold. I hate the movement that coerces them into being there and holds them hostage with various vague threats of what happens to apostates.

a-man-from-earth · 2021-05-11T04:08:20+00:00

Just like feminism is a broad spectrum, so is the MRM. Not every men's rights activist or male advocate is attacking feminism.

But yes, many MRAs do, because we see that many feminists, and especially those in positions of power and influence, attack men.

And the stories of Erin Pizzey, Earl Silverman, and Cassie Jaye are too common to give feminism at large the benefit of the doubt. Individual feminists, sure. But they'll need to show they are critical of the core misandrist ideas common in their movement.

MelissaMiranti · 2021-05-11T03:52:08+00:00

No, not inherently. There are certain things where the aims of MRAs are necessarily against feminist aims, but only in those areas where feminists fight to exacerbate existing inequalities, such as in schools. But as long as feminists fight to make things actually equal, there's no problem.

ninja_deli · 2021-05-17T19:45:56+00:00

I don't think it's theoretically anti feminist but ends up looking like it is. That is because modern feminism is an attack on men. MRA's biggest hurdle to getting men's issues heard is the constant attacks on men. So right now they are at odds, but theoretically solving men's and women's issues can co exist.

Blauwpetje · 2021-05-12T19:26:47+00:00

Many problems men as men have in the modern world are due to the omnipresent influence of mainstream feminism. We can talk a lot about men failing at the workplace, in education, in relationships, getting addicted etc., but if we want to make the MRM political and not just some kind of social work or self-help, at least 60% of the time we'll end up looking at feminist ideology and actions, which are inaccurate for our interests at best and harmful at worst.

MILFBucket · 2021-05-11T19:26:23+00:00

I've always thought they could coexist as competing interests, you know, much like political parties, one for each sex.

InfiniteDials · 2021-05-11T19:51:20+00:00

A lot of MRAs hate feminists. As you said, some of them like to generalize the entire movement based on its worst members. I don’t know if the ideology itself is anti-feminist, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of it was.

purebredginger_ · 2021-05-12T03:54:28+00:00

No. I'm pro both.

pottawacommie · 2021-05-15T23:03:56+00:00

I’d consider myself an egalitarian.

I advocate for women’s rights, sure, but I advocate much louder for men’s rights, as our perspective is underrepresented and often goes undiscussed.

I’m opposed to the underlying tenets of feminism because at its core I view patriarchy theory to be harmful, bioessentialist, and sexist overall.

billsull_02842 · 2021-05-16T06:15:43+00:00

are feminists for men rights?

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