Has the pay gap been completely debunked?

Nayko214 · 2022-03-09T21:19:53+00:00

Its a few different factors. The first is as already mentioned the disproportionate amount of men in CEO, president, board, etc. positions that make way too much money for what they do and thus skew the average really hard. Second, the 'low skill' jobs favor men pay wise, mostly for being dirty and dangerous. Jobs like construction, garbage collection, etc. all pay higher due inherently to health risks and other factors; meanwhile the 'low skill' jobs for women tend to be things like cleaning, child care, or secretarial. Far safer/less risky jobs. Thirdly, whether its societal pressure or just desire to, more women take time off/work less hours due to taking time with the kids if they have any. Less hours worked means less pay.

Obviously each business is gonna be its own thing, and no one situation is gonna be the same everywhere. But I imagine on average if a woman is in the same position as a man and working the same hours they're gonna be paid more or less the same.

Background-Anybody32 · 2022-03-09T23:28:36+00:00

There are even studies which show a reverse effect

Vandechoz · 2022-03-09T21:53:26+00:00

I believe there was still a 1-3% pay gap unaccounted for after controlling for other factors, from what I remember off the top of my head.

It makes sense to me, personally, for at least that much of the percentage of the gap to be due to discrimination. There are a lot of really old, very highly paid dudes way up at the top of the corporate ladder, and they grew up in a far less egalitarian environment than I did. So even if there were zero discrimination against women my age right now, that wouldn't change what happened half a century ago that got those men to where they are.

It's possible that those men even account for a larger percentage of the wage gap, but today men are being discriminated against, which is why it drops down to only 1-3%.

I want to emphasize that I provided no sources in this comment.

Maldevinine · 2022-03-09T23:24:35+00:00

It's worth pointing out that gender pay gaps are not evenly distributed across industries. Male prostitutes and porn stars earn less, where female sportspeople are paid less. I believe law and accounting have particular problems as well.

Beltox2pointO · 2022-03-10T00:02:02+00:00

It's very difficult to "debunk" the claim of a pay gap.

The figure of men's earnings vs women's earnings is about 80% before taking variables into account.

So depending on which bullets they bites which variables they're willing to entertain etc, you'll have a large variance of success convincing someone it doesn't exist.

The more important discussion truly lies in why it exists, what we can do to improve it or if we need to at all.

A simple example I try to lead with is;

It's already illegal to discriminate based on sex or gender. So if a man and woman doing the same job are paid differently, first look at other reasons, experience, qualifications, hell even asking for a raise can make the difference. From that point I simply lead them into agreeing that we should have open wage discussion with co-workers and focus on more important employee/employer problems.

Blauwpetje · 2022-03-10T20:04:08+00:00

If I could choose between work I really like with a reasonable income, and soulless hard work with twice as much money, I'd choose the former. Very often women have much more choice in this, if only because they make sure their partner's income is big enough for that, while most men either (traditionally) prefer being the main breadwinner or (more modern) totally disregard their partner's income.

cromulent_weasel · 2022-03-10T00:49:44+00:00

I think it depends on what you mean. I think that when men and women have the same qualifications, the same job experience, and the same job, whatever pay gap there is shrinks down to about 2% on average. So it's still a thing, but a far cry from 30% or whatever.

But, there's definitely a 'parenting penalty' when one partner takes a flexi-job so the main breadwinner can advance their career, or one partner has to work fewer hours to deal with the kids before and after school. And THAT is a burden that still falls disproportionately on women.

Is that part of the pay gap? Not in a strictly technical sense I think but perhaps a lot of people when talking about the pay gap are including this in their thinking.

over348 · 2022-03-10T02:39:09+00:00

There's more evidence for a pay gap showing that taller men make more than shorter men vs men making more than woman

GodHelpUz · 2022-03-09T22:48:09+00:00

For under 40s in Western Europe women earn more or a tiny bit less as average pay for full time employment. I know the statistics are readily available on gov.uk but that's UK only. Others cant be bothered to link rn as I'm on mobile

janearcade · 2022-03-10T04:14:53+00:00

I feel like the wage gap is similar to the discussion around why men don't (usually) get custody after divorce, and the interplay between "choice" and social pressure.

MealReadytoEat_ · 2022-03-10T17:28:08+00:00

It's a maternal pay gap, basically every other effect is being drowned out by women's higher educational achievement.

Adjal · 2022-03-13T00:00:31+00:00

The biggest disparity is the pay gap between mothers and non-mothers. Women without children make close to the same as men who do or don't have children. If paternity leave were forced, this would close the gender pay gap, but would likely increase the parent/non-parent pay gap.

Jonathanese · 2022-03-13T04:25:56+00:00

I don't think it has been completely debunked. But I would say it certainly has been reduced to a level that broad accusations of misogyny don't quite work. And in many fields or demographics, women out-earn men. So a unilateral approach would be misguided.

For instance, one factor to remember is that while women largely choose fields that pay less, we can't be too sure about the cause and effect between these fields being low paying and women occupying them. One feminist counterargument I have heard, for instance, is that because women occupy a field, it's possible that field as a whole is valued less.

That could certainly be a factor and we should keep an eye on it. But I also notice men go more towards hard-numbers production-oriented fields like engineering and construction. Women-dominated fields are often things like teachers, nurses, social work, and psychological fields like therapy, whose effect is valuable, but whose effects are harder quantify in terms of money. My sister works with children who have learning disabilities. Some of her work has been life-changing for these children. But as far as the CFO or CEO is concerned, "Life-changing" isn't a dollar figure.

Since businesses try to minimize labor costs as much as possible, it is easier to cut or stagnate wages on these fields due to their hard-to-quantify effect. Or rather, it is hard to cut pay for engineers or construction workers when you have a specific number for exactly how much money they have made for the company.

I think teachers especially are incredibly under-served, and that is a very female-dominated field. Though I know many men who consider being teachers are uneasy about the fact that parents aren't usually as comfortable leaving their children with men.

And THEN there's the question of "to what extent should we try to equalize these choices?". I believe it should be about teaching children they can be anything, and giving them a shot at it, but let them choose how they will.

The idea that women are "forced" into certain roles does a disservice to women who wanted to be in these roles, which are the majority. Telling a teacher she "should have been an engineer" isn't a good call. Even if she wants to be a teacher because of gender roles, the fact remains that she still wants to be in that field.

Another might have to do with how issues of women in tech are taught. Like, my mom faced a lot of issues in the 80's and 90's working in computers. But if you were to teach girls that "when working in computers, you will face dismissal or harassment because men don't want you there", that doesn't exactly inspire a lot of women to want to go into these fields. We should be taught to look for sexism so we know how to react to it, not be proactively told it is already there, even if she might not experience it.

As an engineer, most project managers I have worked under have been women, and are greatly admired by their teams. Whether by nature or nurture, they have great leadership skills, and we could use that in this field. I don't think telling women that these fields are fundamentally sexist helps much with that, and our focus should be helping them if they do experience it, rather than scaring them away from the profession before they even try.

Ausiwandilaz · 2022-03-16T11:17:35+00:00

Just another statement to disract us so mainstream media can take the rest of the gap

Better yet, is there a gap in my pocket or am I just paying for cable?

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