Physical Fitness Standards Lowered for Female Marines as not Enough Met Them

troll-ol-ol-ol-ol · 2013-12-27T16:47:13+00:00

Former Marine here, I had a female Marine attached to our unit. A lot of guys didn't want to have her with us because of the stereo type. I ensured she could do the same job (we were firefighters). Later in my career I was integrated with the infantry. I got my ass kicked trying to get up to their standards. They didn't lower their standards, I had to rise to their's because it wasn't a matter of "hey let's everybody in" but a matter of life and death. These standards have been put in place for a reason for one reason. Mission accomplishment.

silly_vasily · 2013-12-27T18:48:41+00:00

as a member of the Canadian armed forces (infantry) we allow girls in combat for a long time now, but problem is that their entry exams are easier and once on course most do keep up, but in certain cases i have seen and been involved in situations where a girl could not carry her stuff and some poor shmuck had to do it for her because on certain courses (leadership) they cannot fail. and even if they do graduate from Infantry school i have seen no women in active combat in Afghanistan because they all get tasked or chose a desk job or some other secondary tasks and none of them complain about it. i say it unfair

Space_Ninja · 2013-12-27T20:18:07+00:00

How do you fail three pull ups? I haven't done pull ups in 15 years, and I'm confident I could do at least 3. Jesus.

Coincidently, I have a pull up bar coming in the mail so I'll be eating my words very soon.

helloiisclay · 2013-12-27T23:35:17+00:00

Former US Coast Guard here...

When I was in, we had the standard physical fitness test of 1.5 mile run, push-ups, and sit-ups. The times/numbers were different for women than men, but that can be and was/is attributed to differences in physiology and muscle mass.

The problem I did have was the second fitness test. I was stationed at a small-boat station that primarily did search and rescue. To be a boat-crew member, we had to pass a second "practical" fitness test. A requirement of the job was being a crew member, so everyone had to also pass this test as well. The test simulated some of the things that might be encountered during a SAR operation. For males, the test basically consisted this:

Put on a dry-suit in the locker room and get to the end of the pier.
Carry Oscar (the man-overboard dummy) 50 yards.
Carry a ~60 pound water pump 100 yards.
1/4 mile run/sprint in gear.

Each stage had a pass/fail time, and if one section was failed, the entire test was failed. For women, the test consisted of just numbers 1 & 4. I never understood why women were allowed to skip 2 & 3, as they were a test of basically (2) hauling somebody out of the water, or (3) moving a pump into position if a vessel was on fire or taking on water (pump served both uses - spray water onto boat on fire, or a giant bilge pump spraying water overboard). Both of those functions were essential for a boat-crew member in my eyes. I made a few waves about it, but there's not much a junior enlisted can do within the chain of command to change things.

That was basically my eye-opener for Men's Rights. Why were men treated that differently, while occupying the same job? Anyways, sorry to ramble on...

ENTP · 2013-12-27T15:57:17+00:00

Women are physically weaker than men.

Is that controversial? Or common fucking sense?

dungone · 2013-12-27T16:15:14+00:00

Soldier here.

Firstly, yes, Women have significantly lower upper body strength then men. Secondly, Pullups are a useless and irrelevent test to determine fitness for duty.

The current training model for fitness in place by most militaries uses a large amount of pushups, pullups, situps, and distance runs. These provide something to measure when annual fitness test time comes around but they have little to do with ones abilities to perform their duties. Things like weighted carries, casuality drags, sandbag carries, and sprints are a much better way to train as they simulate much closer the real conditions soldiers experience.

Canada used to use the standard pushup/situp/ run test until it chaged this year (we havent done pullups in a very long time). This test had multiple standards based on age/sex...Meaning that a perfect "exempt" score for a 35 year old woman was lower then a bare pass for a 22 year old man.

Recently we moved to a test that has weighted sandbag carry, picking up sandbags for time, casualty drag, and burpees and sprints (to simulate pepper potting). This new test has one pass standard that all people have to meet. More importantly it has shifted training emphasis because most units "train for the test". Now instead of doing endless pushups we are doing useful stuff like squats under heavy loads, hill sprints, and farmers carries.

It is true that women will never average out to the same strength as men but when you are testing things like the squat strength and anerobic work capacity (rather then upper body strength and V02 max) they are actually much closer.

Here in Canada we have women in direct fire combat positions. Infantry unit PT standards are much higher then the universal test requirements and women are meeting them just fine. Those that dont are punted to other trades (just like the men that dont). Contrary to popular belief you dont have to be super-human fit to be in the military. You just have to put a little effort in and work hard

Space_Ninja · 2013-12-27T17:21:01+00:00

so marines don't have to be strong, and they can be women.

paashpointo · 2013-12-28T01:12:21+00:00

As I read through this thread, I saw people meandering around the issue by saying pull ups arent representative and so on. But the bottom line is if we are kicking men out of the military for not being able to do them I see no reason why women should not be held to the same standard.

Let's make it going over a wall with X amount of gear. Do we think magically the same women that couldnt do 1 pull up compared to the 3 the men have to do will be able to somehow perform at the same level as men all of a sudden.

I am all for equal opportunity. Everyone has the opportunity to try out for a job, but unless there is a bona fide reason to have separate standards for men and women in an area then they should have the same standard. No one to the best I can tell has ever explained why it makes sense for women to be able to run slower. Just think about that for a moment. If running x miles means anything it means the basic ability for endurance. Why do women need less of it?

Are enemies slower when chasing women? Do they slow down when women are running towards them? Do buildings getting cleared by women slower on average by women not matter(assuming speed is the goal).

We need to look at the big picture. Ask yourself if there would be a shitstorm if blacks had different standards than whites in fitness or if gays had diffferent standards than straight people or if christians had different standards than atheists. That would be absurd. I agree. Why should it be any different for men and women? Please give me a good reason.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2013-12-27T19:09:43+00:00

I'm quite skeptical of Jacob's claim that all the women were capable of doing that many pullups since the ones left at the end were the ones who didn't wash out. He's playing fast and loose with statistics there.

Camp Lejeune is not boot camp, but a training facility for already graduated Marines, and most of the training there is of combat roles, and he only reference his female instructors; I'm skeptical of how many women are on that base at all. Either he or the article is making it seem like there are a ton of female marines right off the bus and are just held back by the Marine Corps in some way in meeting the standard, when the comparison to minimum standard than women in boot camp aren't meeting is an entire different pool of individuals.

termd · 2013-12-28T00:24:49+00:00

The amusing part of all of this is that half the women can't even do 3 pullups. People don't seem to realize that if you do the bare minimum, you're a worthless piece of shit in combat arms.

travo5100 · 2013-12-27T23:39:55+00:00

Former Marine infantryman here. If I had done only 3 pull-ups at any point in my 4 year infantry career, it would have been a bad scene. 10 is considered extremely poor. 20 pull-ups was the gold standard and any less was considered sub-par.

I am no longer in the Marines and can no longer do 20 pull-ups. I would not consider myself in nearly the same shape I was when I could do 20. Someone that can do that many pull-ups is most likely in pretty good shape. The same as the rest of the events in the Marine PFT. Being in shape enough to get a perfect (or close to) PFT, allows you to be able to train to perform the specialty training that the infantry performs. These tasks may include running with full gear on, long gear laden hikes, climbing over objects, carrying ammo, filling and hauling sandbags, and many other physically demanding tasks.

Another thing is that Marine infantry personell have typically brutish type personalities and do not tolerate other marines who cannot pull their own weight (women or men). Once branded as weak, it is very hard to shed that brand.

Cell phone submission, be kind.

iopq · 2013-12-28T01:18:23+00:00

Within six months, all of the women in his company were doing eight to 12 pullups, he says

.... six months to do 8 pull ups? I remember when I was fat and in grade school I could hit at least that.

Also, shameful statistics.

It took these women 6 months to be competitive with the top 15% of adolescent boys, in 1985.

I'm all for equality, but changing the rules for women isn't equality. Its literally going to get good people killed, when they blatantly can't physically perform but are out there anyway. I would hope any soldier who gets the short end of this political stick nopes the fuck out of it.

Nomenimion · 2013-12-28T13:43:18+00:00

The standards need to be exactly the same, and when no women meet them it means no more female marines. Let's cut the bullshit.

2013-12-28T16:44:24+00:00

Equality is the goal, right? Maybe we should start drafting women until we get an equal amount of women passing the test. Equal rights means equal responsibility.

2013-12-27T22:36:42+00:00

I got out just in time.

troll-ol-ol-ol-ol · 2013-12-27T23:16:03+00:00

I whole heartedly agree with argument against 3 minimum pullups being a measure of job performance. I don't think I made that clear. What I have a problem is with the standards for the job being lowered. Not the physical fitness test.

Tusse · 2013-12-28T00:53:39+00:00

Sounds like being a marine no longer is a smart choice for smart people.

Meistermalkav · 2013-12-28T12:09:00+00:00

That is just so sad, I mean, what really makes me wonder is what happens to those females that can?

Heck, I have seen females who can drag grown ass men by their neck at speeds that I could not even run. I would trust these females with my life.

I would not trust a female that was just added to the thing because she "was required to be the quota girl to make the numbers right".

I have seen females suceed. I have seen them get up to male standarts, and even kick mans asses.

Every time you lower the standarts, every time you go and are all "But we need more women in our group", you devalue these brave and very capable womens accomplishments, just to appease some armchair feminists.

MaxJohnson15 · 2013-12-27T22:23:43+00:00

They should be offered less benefits at the percentage they drop the standards

YoHomeToBellair · 2013-12-28T01:43:45+00:00

Why aren't women fighting in combat as much as men huh? Women are equal too!

Why doesn't Afghanistan come with mountains and combat zones for WOMEN huh? That's sooooo sexists.

Hey wait why are more women dying in combat than men huh? THE PATRIARCHY WINS AGAIN.

Clauderoughly · 2013-12-27T17:10:55+00:00

FUCKING CALLED IT !

PJkeeh · 2013-12-27T23:34:21+00:00

This is relevant to men's rights how? Never miss an opportunity to bitch about women do you. At least they want to fight. If they didn't lower the standards you'd be complaining about them not fighting.

DrunkNFunky · 2013-12-27T22:10:25+00:00

Lol.. "canadian military"

SpikeNLB · 2013-12-27T21:20:18+00:00

Just a matter of perspective. My half sister, when she was in the Army, when the PT test came and she failed it, she would ask the ranking officer overseeing the test if when his wife goes into labor, will it matter to him if she was able to get over the wall or do however many sit-ups, pull-ups, ect. Yep, she was an obstetrician. Always passed the test after that. Just saying.

Title	Physical Fitness Standards Lowered for Female Marines as not Enough Met Them
Author	BigDisc
Upvotes	371
Comments	265
Date	December 27, 2013 3:40 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1tt76w/physical_fitness_standards_lowered_for_female/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/physical-fitness-standards-lowered-for-female.1155080 https://theredarchive.com/post/1155080

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