A rebuttal to "Hark! A Vagrant"'s Strawfeminism argument. (Bonus: Guess the protest I'm alluding to!)

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The point of the Hark A Vagrant comic is that strawfeminists are used as bogey men to scare people; thus the 'monster in the kids' closet' theme. Note the over-the-top phrases they use.

It is not saying there are no shitty radical feminists. Certainly feminists themselves don't think this, in fact there is a lot of criticism levelled at certain first and second wave radical feminists who are seen as classist, transphobic and racist in the way they fought for the rights of only a select few women. These women are called 'radscum' or 'TERFs' (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists). There are plenty of these, including possibly some professors and union leaders, if the situation in your comic actually happened.

So basically you misunderstood the comic you're 'rebutting', and said something really obvious. Everyone knows that any given group of human beings will include some dipshits.

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[–]johnmarkley 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

The point of the Hark A Vagrant comic is that strawfeminists are used as bogey men to scare people; thus the 'monster in the kids' closet' theme.

Therein lies the dishonesty: Monsters in kids' closets aren't real. They're the product of a frightened child's imagination.

Misandrist feminists actually exist, no matter how much you try to sweep that fact under the rug when it's inconvenient. Calling them "strawfeminists" is just gaslighting. They're as flesh-and-blood as you are.

It is not saying there are no shitty radical feminists. Certainly feminists themselves don't think this, in fact there is a lot of criticism levelled at certain first and second wave radical feminists who are seen as classist, transphobic and racist in the way they fought for the rights of only a select few women.

Yes, but- as you yourself admit by omission- what feminists typically do not criticize them for is their misandry, which was the relevant issue in the comic and the real event it was based on, the University of Toronto protests.

[+]nofelix -8 points-7 points-6 points 13 years ago (43 children) | Copy Link

Therein lies the dishonesty: Monsters in kids' closets aren't real. They're the product of a frightened child's imagination. Misandrist feminists actually exist,

It's not dishonesty; the Hark author is talking about a different thing. What you're doing is akin to defending scaremongering about terrorism by saying terrorists exist. We know they exist; scaremongering can still be criticized.

feminists typically do not criticize them for is their misandry

Why would it be feminists' responsibility to criticise people for hating men? That's like saying MRAs are responsible for men that hate women. Anyway, you can't prove a negative, so how do you know what criticism is out there? I can say 'their misandry is bad' right now.

I'm watching this video of the protest right now. Seems boring. Where's the misandry? They're just saying 'fuck Warren Farrell'.

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directly relates to the perception of feminism itself. If I am to believe that they are for equality, I want to see it demonstrated.

Why should feminists care what you believe about them? Its validity doesn't depend on you or anyone else having a positive view of it.

Citing 'no true scotsman' arguments doesn't work here, because there is no such thing as a 'true feminist' in the first place. Anyone can call themselves a feminist.

For a recent example of feminists talking about male issues see this post which tackles virgin shaming of men. This response is typical of the feminist view on such issues: "Virgin shaming is one of those magical ways in which men are disadvantaged by the patriarchy. It's real. It's a problem". So the problem is acknowledged and criticised, and people are aware of it. Notice there are a variety of responses, ranging from "yes this is awful" to "it's bad but women have it worse", but no denying that it's a problem, except for one downvoted comment.

[–]AlexReynard 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Why should feminists care what you believe about them?

Why wouldn't they care?

because there is no such thing as a 'true feminist' in the first place. Anyone can call themselves a feminist.

So then why do so many feminists, when I point out bad behavior in their circles, tell me that those people aren't really what feminism is? Is there a 'true' feminism or isn't there? Because if, like you say, there isn't one, I should be able to respond to those people by saying that they're no more a true feminist than the jerks they're excusing.

For a recent example of feminists talking about male issues see this post which tackles virgin shaming of men.

I would be more impressed by that if I had ever in my life heard the term 'virgin shaming' before you mentioned it. Nor of feminists condemning it. But I have heard them, many many times, insist that misandry doesn't exist and that the men's rights movement is a hate group. That outweighs your point considerably.

[–]nofelix 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Why wouldn't they care?

I already said, feminism's validity doesn't rest on your belief in it, that's why they wouldn't care.

So then why do so many feminists, when I point out bad behavior in their circles, tell me that those people aren't really what feminism is?

Yes you've caught them in an effective rhetorical trap. They gave the wrong answer.

I would be more impressed by that if I had ever in my life heard the term 'virgin shaming' before you mentioned it.

But you've heard of the actual thing, right? Men being shamed for being virgins? Or men being judged by how much sex they have? That's really common, even though the term 'virgin shaming' is not.

insist that misandry doesn't exist

The non-existence of misandry is widely misunderstood by MRAs. They think it means that men don't experience discrimination, or that men aren't disadvantaged in any way by society. It doesn't mean that. What it means is that the discrimination men face is not oppressive; it's a technical distinction really. It's a difficult point to get. I had a three hour argument about conscription with a patient feminist before I understood it. But the important part to know is that the non-existence of misandry doesn't equal the non-existence of male problems. Generally problems like men being expected to be tough, or being incapable of looking after children, these are acknowledged by feminists as real and wrong.

the men's rights movement is a hate group

This is something we agree on. While I've definitely seen hateful things within the MRM I don't think it's fair to call the whole thing a hate group. As far as I know, only one organization has actually come close to saying the MRM is a hate group; the Southern Poverty Law Centre. You can see their response here:

We wrote about the subreddit Mens Rights, but we did not list it as a hate group ... In almost all cases, we list hate groups at the end of each calendar year when we publish lists. I very much doubt we would ever list the Reddit [r/MensRights] in question—it's a diverse group, which certainly does include some misogynists—but I don't think that's [its basic] purpose.

Some people have taken the leap to label the whole MRM as a hate group and they're wrong to do so. I don't think it's defensible, and just comes from wishful thinking.

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It's not dishonesty; the Hark author is talking about a different thing. What you're doing is akin to defending scaremongering about terrorism by saying terrorists exist. We know they exist; scaremongering can still be criticized.

Except no one is accused of "scaremongering" for merely mentioning that terrorists actually exist and occasionally have an effect on the world, while that is precisely what brings out accusations of attacking "straw feminists." Geek Feminism Wiki (highest Google result for the term that's actually a feminist source as opposed to a general interest site like Wisegeek or TVTropes), for instance, defines a straw feminist as "a made-up version of a feminist that doesn't really exist." The Hark comic says strawfeminists "aren't real." This is not out of line with how the term is typically used.

Why would it be feminists' responsibility to criticize people for hating men?

I didn't say it was. The OP said- paraphrasing crudely- that it sucks that feminists not only don't criticize hatred of men in their own ranks, they often try to deny that such haters even exist. You replied by pointing out that feminists often do criticize other feminists for things such as racism, classism, and transphobia. Presumably you thought that this was actually relevant to the discussion you posted it in, and weren't just wandering around Reddit posting random trivia. So I pointed out that it does not refute the OPs point to say that feminist disapprove of other forms of bigotry. If anything it emphasizes it, since- as you pointed out- feminists are not at all shy about attacking other feminists for bigotry if it's a form of bigotry they disapprove of.

As to the question of why it would be feminists' responsibility to criticize people for hating men in general: It depends on the feminist. If you advocate the view that feminism rightly understood is solely concerned with the way gender norms harm women, and is not concerned one way or the other with how they might affect men, it isn't. However, this would require denying that things like male rape victims, homophobia against gay men, harms suffered by men for failing to conform to traditional masculine ideals, etc. fall under feminism's purview or are things a feminist holds any opinion on qua feminist, and the only feminists who actually do so with any regularity overlap to a considerable extent with the feminists you derided as "radscum."

However, a great many feminists claim that feminism is the movement for gender equality in general, that if gender roles negatively affect men than feminism is the solution, and that consequently trying to address men's issues without explicitly aligning yourself with feminism is at best pointless and more likely a cover for something sinister.

Feminists in that group have themselves claimed it as feminists' responsibility to oppose hatred of men for being men, so if the idea that hatred of men is feminism's problem bothers you I suggest you take it up with them. I'd be delighted if mainstream feminists openly and explicitly disavowed any concern for men's well-being and became a movement that could, without hypocrisy, simply ignore hatred of men in its own ranks as irrelevant to its purpose one way or the other, so I'd be rooting for you.

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It actually amazes me how fucking stupid people are when they say shit like this.

I mean, even IF you want to somehow accept the "no true scotsman" argument... you'd have to expect them to be at least a little bit peeved that people are doing all of this terrible shit in their name. But it's never like that... it's just "Oh, yeah, they aren't feminists"... and that's it. They never say "How dare they tarnish the name of this group that is supposed to be about equal rights for all", and they never do anything to stop it.

I guess the real answer is actually quite simple... most of them agree with it. Sure they are too chicken shit to maybe do what these "not real feminists" are doing... but they definitely agree with the "why" they are doing it. I really don't think there's another explanation that doesn't require you to jump through about a billion fucking hoops to make it make sense

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Except we largely do. We downvote, call people out directly, disavow, etc. We've called out JtO when we feel he's gone too far.

The fact they troll us with people to make us look bad is telling that they some think they have to resort to dishonest tactics to "win".

The problem is what they call misogyny is usually just disagreeing with someone's opinion, but since their opinion is motivated by equality, they think any opposition or disagreement implies inequality, and it's easy to convince people such an erroneous conclusion.

It's either outright ignorance of fundamentals of logic, or exploiting the general ignorance of it in favor of audience swaying rhetoric. In either case, such accusations cannot stand up to genuine scrutiny.

It's funny how every time I see people accusing /MR or the MRM of misogyny I ask for examples of it that is well supported by the community, and thus far I've gotten null. In the political realm it isn't about what is right or wrong to many people, but what is the most convenient argument to sway people. Politically active feminism exploits this to a great degree; it's not unique to feminism, but that doesn't excuse such grade school tactics.

[–]giegerwasright -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Who's JtO?

It's either outright ignorance of fundamentals of logic, or exploiting the general ignorance of it in favor of audience swaying rhetoric. In either case, such accusations cannot stand up to genuine scrutiny.

It's both. Sometimes simultaneously, sometimes not. Most of the time it is done with little to no comprehension. It is a reflexive thinking pattern learned from watching their mothers cow their fathers into giving them what they want so that they'll shut the fuck up.

The problem is, it takes way too much intelligence to comprehend what they are doing, so when you point it out to others, the most you'll get is a blank stare and a "I can't agree with you. I ain't no sexist/racist/homophobe."

Most people are just too fucking stupid to recognize and admit how they're being manipulated and why they should resist it.

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he only point she might've been trying to get across was that not everyone belongs to the extreme,

Which while not incorrect... is a completely moot point.

If you share the same label as someone who is committing what can only be described as hate... then you either a) have to do something about it, or b) differentiate yourself or c) just drop the label (aka a form of b).

If you don't try to do A, then you are supporting them whether you like it or not.

If you fail to do A after trying, then it's pretty obvious that what you think your "label" represents isn't actually the mainstream view.

And if you don't do B or C, then again, whether you like it or not, you are lending social support to people who will use the social power that comes with calling yourself a feminist to do hateful things.

So either "man up" to it, do something about it, or gtfo.

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Wow, I'm pretty shocked that was your experience.

When I took my first and only women's studies class, I had a very tolerant feminist professor. She encouraged us to think critically and at the end of the semester to eventually decide on if we bought into feminism or not. Every time a men's issue was brought up, she would agree and elaborate more on it. It was really refreshing. But I suppose I'm lucky enough to be at a university where the women's studies professors are like that.

Anyways, I challenged feminism in various papers and though she called me rebellious, she respected me for it and graded me fairly. Her only condition was that if we argued for or against anything in the classroom, we have to back it up.

Really shocked your university's womens studies professor was there and wasn't even trying to hide the fact she was behind such a ridiculous protest...

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Well if I currently support mens rights and am currently participating in this subreddit then I would say she was actually tolerant, and I wasn't brainwashed.

That isn't even the standard when it comes to female professors.

Ehh, I would say that's going too far and even villifying. Female does not automatically equal feminist. I don't feel any sort of "feminist aura" or "girl power" coming from any of my female professors (and that would be in calculus, journalism, and physics). They are just there to teach whatever subject they're there for and I don't know how you would even squeeze in some girl power into a lesson on integrals.

They love using that girl power network for career opportunism, but that can only be used if you sing the national anthem of feminism "it's all men's fault, we're all perfect, give us free shit, but tell us that we earned it!"

That seems to insinuate that most female professors did not work their way up to their positions like all the other male professors did.

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Title	A rebuttal to "Hark! A Vagrant"'s Strawfeminism argument. (Bonus: Guess the protest I'm alluding to!)
Author	MRMThrowaway00
Upvotes	391
Comments	161
Date	December 30, 2012 4:06 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/15ocmg/a_rebuttal_to_hark_a_vagrants_strawfeminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-rebuttal-to-hark-a-vagrants-strawfeminism.1005433 https://theredarchive.com/post/1005433

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