Female Privilege. | MensRights

[+]TweeSpam 14 years ago* [recovered] (47 children) | Copy Link

Some context.

The white feather as a symbol of cowardice.

In August 1914, at the start of the First World War, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather with support from the prominent author Mrs Humphrey Ward. The organisation aimed to coerce men to enlist in the British Army by persuading women to present them with a white feather if they were not wearing a uniform.

It's all too easy to be able to guilt people to do their 'duty' and put their life on the line when you have no such obligations and absolutely no such danger yourself.

When presented with a white feather by a woman, "Check your privilege" would have probably have been the most appropriate response.

[–]jesusandhisbeard 15 points16 points17 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

it wasn't JUST the first world war.

I had a grand father in the second world war who completed several years fighting through france,belgium,holland and germany to be sent back home as his mother was dying (by this point it was mid 1944) he flew back to Canterbury via a Lancaster bomber. My Granddad after being let with leave for a few days to watch his mother pass he left the barracks in Canterbury and changed back into his "Civvies" (non military uniform), my dad told me that my granddad stopped off at a little cafe in town after visiting his mother on her death bed to stop for tea, half way through drinking his first cup a lady walks over to where my granddad was sitting sipping his tea and placed a white feather upon his table whilst scowling at my granddad believing he hadn't joined the army like all the other men. He looks straight down at the feather that had rested on top of his table and burst into tears. Little did that woman know that out of my granddads regiment of 1000 men, 3 came back.. Including my granddad. He would have been aged 23 when this happened. from 19 joining the army to 25 when he left.

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I believe the modern term for these are 'vaginas'

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It's not a fallacy. raptor said that soceital influences on evolution is what has created the physiological differneces (size) in men and women. I don't buy that. I think males were bigger all the way back before we had "society."

Sexual selection plays a prominent role in evolution.

Anyway the real argument here should be "Women should be drafted too," it should be that the draft is unconstitutional, and no one should be forced into conscription. Pissing and moaning about how women get a free pass on the draft only legitimizes this form of slavery.

Perhaps, but personally I'd be happier that either both are drafted or neither, as opposed to just one. Whether both or neither is preferred among those two is the bigger fish to fry, but it's also a lot harder. I think we can start with drafting both. If anything it might motivate the large voting bloc of women to realize "oh, this shit sucks, we should put a stop to it".

[–]Pwag 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Drafting both only legimitizes the turn of American citizens into slaves.

And according to the defense department's reasoning, the only reason women aren't drafted is because they can't be used in front line positions, which is what the draft has normally be used to fill. They can't be put into front line positions becuase they are barred from those jobs.

But we're seeing this change more and more. You can thank Clinton for that in 1994. Women are on the front lines now, attached to groups. But they still can't be "infantry." That'll change too, and when that does, what you'll see is the draft go into full bloom. And the pissing and moaning about it will not be just from women, but from everyone at all levels of the socioeconomic scale saying women shouldn't be put in harms way, they can't do the job, they're the fairer sex.

This isn't a just a MRA issue. There's women out there who want to go out and kill shit and who are capable of doing their part. But they aren't allowed. They are barred from those duties.

Remove that barring and you'll see the draft go both ways. And if/when they do this, you won't see an outcry from women en bloc because the fact that they are on a draft list is a far different reality from actually being drafted.

My issue is with the draft list itself and it's existence. But you know that.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women are on the front lines now, attached to groups. But they still can't be "infantry."

Or armor, artillery, or special forces.

And the pissing and moaning about it will not be just from women, but from everyone at all levels of the socioeconomic scale saying women shouldn't be put in harms way, they can't do the job, they're the fairer sex.

There is that, but in my experience in the military there are simply far fewer women capable of doing those jobs, and the military coddles women so many women who are capable don't stand up to the challenge-because they don't have to.

My issue is with the draft list itself and it's existence. But you know that.

I think my only reason for not opposing the draft entirely is that it is at the very least a necessary contingency plan in the case of full fledged war.

[–]Pwag2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Slavery is never an option.

There is that, but in my experience in the military there are simply far fewer women capable of doing those jobs, and the military coddles women so many women who are capable don't stand up to the challenge-because they don't have to.

That right there is what reinforces the "no women in the draft" mentaility, the r/mensrights is bitching about. Either they can do the job and should, or the can't and shouldn't be included.

As it is now, even if the woman is a rockstar, John Rambo reincartnated with a vagina, she cannot enter "front line" positions.

Never mind statistics and how many women won't pass the tests, the ones can pass it, and can do the job, aren't even allowed to try. And that coddling you're seeing? It's coming from men who don't think they should be there in the first place.

Men who think you should "man up" and be there instead. Feminists and women aren't the enemy of the MRA movement. They're allies. What you're dealing with is some left over male urges from some land wandering hunter gatherer days that needs to go the fuck away.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Never mind statistics and how many women won't pass the tests, the ones can pass it, and can do the job, aren't even allowed to try

Yes and never mind the men who can work out alongside women without objectifying them, but they aren't allowed to apply to Curves.

Something to consider is the increased logistical costs for mixed gender groups. Whether you have 5 qualified women or just 1, you'll also need female medic, all because everyone is so fucking squeamish even in the military. Those 5 women or that one woman will need their own shower and own tent, etc. If there aren't enough qualified women to justify the logistical cost, why should they open the job? You could argue "it shouldn't matter how many qualify it's sexist", but then again you could use that reasoning to get paraplegics in too. Afterall, there are surely a handful of paraplegics that can drive tanks, all it would take is a few modifications. By not accommodating them you're being ableist, right?

And that coddling you're seeing? It's coming from men who don't think they should be there in the first place.

Or it's men not wanting to deal with mere accusations of sexual harassment or favoritism of men.

Feminists and women aren't the enemy of the MRA movement. They're allies.

I'd like to think so but feminists are the ones labeling the MRA movement as misogynistic, and women are following their lead.

[–]Pwag1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]altmehere1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

First, the draft is unfair because women don't get drafted because they can't be used on the front lines and now the bitching is about how if women are allowed in the front lines voluntarily, it'd be too expensive so they shouldn't be allowed and they shouldn't be accommodated.

That's called economies of scale. If there have to be particular resources available for women on the front lines, that makes sense if there are going to be a lot of women (their "5 qualified women") versus very few (their "1"). In the case of a draft, there certainly would be enough women. If more women volunteered, that would also be the case. The draft is still unfair regardless of this situation.

There is a misogynistic thread running through r/mensrights. Some of you hate women and it shows, and it's too bad, because all that does is undo any good you might be able to accomplish.

If there is a thread running through /r/mensrights lately, it's concern trolling.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

First, the draft is unfair because women don't get drafted because they can't be used on the front lines and now the bitching is about how if women are allowed in the front lines voluntarily, it'd be too expensive so they shouldn't be allowed and they shouldn't be accommodated.

Make up your mind.

Um, we can put women in combat roles that aren't infantry like armor and artillery. Also I never said women shouldn't be disbarred from combat at all, but that increased logistics costs would be a justifiable reason if that was the decision.

Secondly there's other options you haven't considered: Keep women out of an obligation to combat, and hell even keep the lower fitness standard, but the pay them less. That wouldn't go over so well politically though.

So here's what I think should be done:

Universal fitness standard across the board and branches. Women must now run as fast as men, and do as many pushups as men, and in the case of some Armed Forces do as many pull-ups as men. Body fat standards and flexibility standards are irrelevant if you can run and lift so both are thrown out.
No more gender segregated berthings, bathrooms, or showers. No requirement for each gender medical personnel for each gender stationed with that unit. If you can shoot people and blow people up, who sees you in your underwear or naked shouldn't be a big deal. This I believe is the majority of logistical cost differences.
Now anyone who can meet the fitness standards can go in, and in jobs where there are even higher fitness standards same applies, and now which ever decision regarding the draft or selective service applies to both genders.

Equal opportunity. Equal responsibility.

There is a misogynistic thread running through r/mensrights. Some of you hate women and it shows, and it's too bad, because all that does is undo any good you might be able to accomplish.

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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I don't entirely understand your first sentence, so I wont respond to that.

The answer to your second point is gender norms. I'm not saying women didn't benefit from being in a caretaker role, and they still benefit today from less societal pressure to perform, as evidenced in suicide rates, and workplace accident rates, etc, but they also had limited rights as imposed by said position. Many women and men use the privileges they gain through gender norms imposed on them in order to get ahead in life, but they should be considered on a case by case basis, while the norms themselves should be squashed. My point was that, during world war 1, it would be silly to bring a woman to a recruitment office to try to get her to enlist in order to exercise equality, because you would be laughed out of the establishment. Women couldn't vote, and the women's right movement was half a decade away. No one would think of asking women to enlist at that time

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That's specifically from a Anglo-American perspective though.

On another note, there are several countries in the world that still has conscription. Such as Finland. You either join the Army, do double the time working in the civil service, or you go to prison. If you're a woman, you can sign up, but you're not obligated to, and certainly don't go to prison. Exactly the same for Germany. And possibly the same for Switzerland.

While the men have to serve their country either in the Army or Civil service or face prosecution, their female peers can get a head start and go straight to university before their male classmates.

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The reason the White Feather campaign was so "successful" is because it played on the ~~patriarchal~~ gynocentric culture of "Weak delicate women must be protected by the big tough men!"

The protection of women, and the sacrifice of men. It's a recurring theme throughout history.

While it's true women were privileged not to have to join the war, the reason for this privilege wasn't because women were valued more than men, it's because they were considered not competant enough to fight in the army.

This 'theory' of yours explains why the killings of women in war-zones outrage us more than the killing of men in war-zones is pretty much a non-matter. Heck, the rapes of women in war-zones outrage us far more than the rapes and subsequent killings of men in war-zones. And why war propaganda (another attempt at getting men to enlist) focused on the killings of women whether they were the targets or not. Wait a minute, no it doesn't...

Note: Not saying the White Feather Campaign was a good idea.

Still it was better than what followed in 1916: Conscription; or slavery, as I prefer to call it.

[–]Grapeban 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Still it was better than what followed in 1916: Conscription; or slavery, as I prefer to call it.

Agreed.

The protection of women, and the sacrifice of men. It's a recurring theme throughout history.

Yes, the theme that women were weak and men were strong, and the associated duties and responsibilities that went along with that.

This 'theory' of yours explains why the killings of women in war-zones outrage us more than the killing of men in war-zones is pretty much a non-matter. Heck, the rapes of women in war-zones outrage us far more than the rapes and subsequent killings of men in war-zones. And why war propaganda (another attempt at getting men to enlist) focused on the killings of women whether they were the targets or not. Wait a minute, no it doesn't...

Alright, I didn't tell the whole story, women were not only considered non-competent, but also too weak to take part in warfare. As I said, they needed protecting. This is why our society is so outraged when women are killed and why propaganda focused on the death of women, they are/were seen as innocents who could not protect themselves. They are treated in much the same way as children are treated.

You haven't really disagreed with me here, in actual fact you've helped me make my point rather well. Was that your intention?

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It seems kind of ludicrous to say that a false assumption that sends men to be slaughtered in the most horrible conflict ever witnessed on the planet is "patriarchal." The definition of that word is pretty flexible, but it's pretty consistent that patriarchal policies are supposed to benefit men, which this clearly doesn't. It is not inconceivable that an oppressed class could be convinced of how lucky they are to be sent off to labor camps while the upper class is "forced" to stay behind and live a life of leisure. About how the upper class are all marginalized because they aren't allowed to work the mines, and how being treated like children too weak to work is bad for their self-esteem. But at the end of the day, the class of people who are forced into a more horrible fate is still the oppressed class, no matter how much noise the other class of people might make about how society values them more.

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Title	Female Privilege.
Author	TweeSpam
Upvotes	258
Comments	159
Date	May 27, 2012 6:32 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/u7jjx/female_privilege/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/female-privilege.1020981 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020981

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