2X here, just curious

Chamoflage · 2011-04-06T16:25:40+00:00

My thoughts on the matter:

There are regular men, and then there are rapists. Except in bizarre cultural conditions like Sparta, rapists are fundamentally different from regular men. This doesn't necessarily mean they're pure evil, but it does mean that their priorities are significantly different from that of a normal man. When I hear people saying that women should avoid dressing in ways that would draw the attention of a rapist, I react the same way as when I hear people saying that men should avoid dressing in ways that would draw the attention of a mugger: It's sensible advice that will decrease the odds that you will be the victim of a violent crime.

2011-04-07T01:43:46+00:00

I think that telling women not to "dress like sluts" is as contemptuous towards men (and oppressive to women) as the insistence in many Muslim cultures that women submit to the hijab or the burqa. Both are rooted in the same vile assumption: that a man who sees an attractive woman cannot control himself.

pcarvious · 2011-04-06T17:23:25+00:00

Two things on rape versus rapists. Rape is a hard subject to really define because it has been expanded in definition and scope. A person can be raped regardless of their gender. Most of the time targets aren't selected based on their clothing. They're selected because they're easy targets. A woman that's walking home alone, at night, in an ill lit area is going to be targeted much more easily than a woman in a well lit area. Does that mean that they are safe? No.

A rapist is a person that intentionally looks to rape someone. Those people that spike drinks with date rape drugs are rapists. The ones that are getting girls drunk off their ass so they can sleep with them are rapists. I differentiate those though with the guys that are drunk themselves at the time because both parties are similarly inhibited. A lot of cases that have come to light recently are of what is referred to on this sub as regret rape which has to do with slut shaming and social reactions to sexual liaisons.

barbadosslim · 2011-04-06T16:58:41+00:00

I think the idea that a woman more or less asks to be raped by her choices in attire

But noone says that. Absolutely noone. It's a strawman that keeps getting built just so the argument can be made. Really, noone says that.

relies on the basic assumption that all men are primitive animals who cannot control their sexual appetites.

No, just like that if you left your wallet at your table in a pub, not everyone is going to steal it. But if a habitual thief walks by and sees your wallet completely unattended, the thief might steal it. Because one thief might steal your wallet that you left unattended doesn't mean that all men[sic] are thieves, just like that one person having the potential to commit rape doesn't make all men[sic] rapists.

jelliedbabies · 2011-04-06T17:07:36+00:00

I said pretty much the same thing In 2XC and got downvoted . Shame womens rights organisations take the exact opposite view blaming men who are falsely accused of rape for putting themselves into a situation where they can be accused of such.

Kuonji · 2011-04-06T16:38:32+00:00

Your comparisons aren't quite correct.

If someone were to leave their doors unlocked, they would be chided for making it more likely to get robbed.

Same way with certain behaviors a woman might do that might more likely attract a rapist.

In the first example, it doesn't mean every single person is a robber. It just means those people who are robbers are more likely going to target your house than someone who locked their doors.

So someone who gets plastered, acts flirty, and passes out in a room full of meatheads is more likely to attract a rapist than someone who doesn't do those things. It doesn't mean all guys are uncontrollable animals, it means that those people who are uncontrollable animals (hint:rapists) are going to have an easier time making a target out of you if you do those things.

2011-04-06T16:59:15+00:00

I think you're right. Its like saying a man can't control himself and simply thinks with his dick, and given the chance he will rape. Most people who have rape aren't quite right in the head. It is not solely a crime of opportunity.

If dressing like a slut increases the odds of getting raped through drawing attention to yourself, it has little to do with dressing like a slut. A bright neon green jumpsuit would have the same effect.

The main argument about if rape has to do with power or sex as the primary age group of people who are raped is younger, but this could simply be from the fact that people below the age of 30 are more likely to be out in the middle of the night and partying.

This leads to point number 2, which is if you are dressing like a slut you will gather attention, and you will get hit on. Especially in a situation like a party. Then if you get a little tipsy, and if you regret it (depending on who you ask) it qualifies as rape. This just makes things more unclear because "if she wasn't dressed provocatively then she wouldnt have been hit on and gotten drunk...."

pakmanishere · 2011-04-06T17:03:55+00:00

There was never any inference that "a woman more or less asks to be raped by her choices in attire".

It's projection.

ignatiusloyola · 2011-04-08T15:36:05+00:00

It is a ridiculous assumption to think that anyone truly believes that victims cause their attack.

That being said, people are idiots if they don't protect themselves.

And if they have protected themselves, then no one is going to make any kind of comment.

Anecdote: I once went to a bar that was having a dance competition. The winner was a female who got up on the stage, put her leg up on the railing - showing her unclothed vagina - and started gyrating. The free peep show led to her win. Outside, afterwards, she had a group of guys around her, her now-semi-returned underwear around her ankles, and the guys had their hands under her skirt. Now, if she told the guys after some time to stop and they didn't, I would agree it was a sexual assault, but I would also think that she was f*ing retarded for getting into that situation in the first place.

chavelah · 2011-04-06T18:34:44+00:00

My thought: why are the cops so constantly worked up about stranger rape, when it's such a small subset of the rape problem as a whole?

Obviously, anybody should be able to dress any way they want and not be assaulted on the street. But even beyond that, once you multiply the chance that your rapist will be a stranger plus the chance that he will be triggered by your sexxee outfit plus the chance that he will be able to separate you from your friends and grab you on the night he sees you walking sluttily along the street... it's just not a reasonable aspect to focus on. Focus on not being drunk and alone at parties and clubs. Focus on not having casual social relationships with guys who ping your creep radar.

A lot of sex workers, dressed provocatively AND alone AND under the influence, are targeted for sexual assault by strangers. But something tels me the cops were aiming their advice at girls going clubbing, not pros working a corner.

ExpendableOne · 2011-04-06T21:23:50+00:00

I think the idea that a woman more or less asks to be raped by her choices in attire relies on the basic assumption that all men are primitive animals who cannot control their sexual appetites.

No, it doesn't. It relies on the idea that there are men and women out there who are capable of rape and that dressing provocatively increases your odds of gaining their attention(or, depending those individuals, actually provoke). Just like saying that going out with a hundred dollars in your hand and waiving it around, while yelling "hey everyone! I have 100 dollars! Who wants a 100 dollars!", will increase your odds of being robbed doesn't rely on the fact that everyone are primitive animals who cannot control their own avarice; it relies on the fact that there are people out there who will have no issues taking that money from you and that going out of your way to stand out to those individuals will increase your odds of being robbed.

Another point on this: giving out common sense advice to decrease your odds of being a victim is not the same thing as "blaming the victim". The person doing the crime is still solely responsible for the actual crime. Rapists don't just "get off scot-free" or "get off easy" for their crimes, they will still face consequences to the full extent of the law(and then some) when convicted.

mean0dean0 · 2011-04-06T21:56:01+00:00

My only response would be to quote my now passed grandmother, upon seeing Miley Cyrus on Entertainment Tonight--"does that girl have no shame?"

The whole issue with the "slut walk" is it just seems like the hypersexualization train chugging along; just like facebook posts ostensibly about breast cancer--"I like it on the kitchen table"... wha? You like cancer... on the table...? Your purse? You like your purse... to have cancer... on the tab... whaaaa???"

One cop makes a shameful statement (that is nowhere near the vitriol women are comfortable slewing on other women), and suddenly it's a chance for a party with lots of heels, skin, and very little shame. It's a shame, really, because the clothes do make the man--or woman, in this case.

Liverotto · 2011-04-07T23:56:07+00:00

This might help you understand why you shouldn't advertise your female merchandise in public.

thetrollking · 2011-04-09T11:15:56+00:00

Imma just gonna put this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K1KHqi9bXc

XFDRaven · 2011-04-06T16:54:32+00:00

Guys who dress certain ways are called fags or metrosexuals. It isn't just women, that's simply ignoring the male variant. Instead of rape, its assault.

Both excuses are bullshit.

Scott2508 · 2011-04-06T17:25:44+00:00

ok , 1 men never deny that some ( very small percentage of men ) rape , much in the same way that women can rape we just take offence at all being regarded as de facto rapists because we have a penis .

2, men have to be carefull on the street to avoid the risks of violent attacks etc , that means if we are high or intoxicated we are at greater risk , i have seen gay men in danger from men and women ( actually in this case the women were more vicious ) because of how they dress.

3, the officer was trying to point out that dressing in some ways has a greater risk than others and women know that dressing in this way has the potential for risk albeit small , if cutting back on drinking and being more aware protects them in the case of risking assault then thats a win all round, sometimes stuff left to the imagination is far sexier anyway.

Hamakua · 2011-04-06T17:41:55+00:00

My thoughts?

I want you to imagine two parents, a father and a mother, who, on most evenings, at about 10 o'clock, when it is very dark, send their 11 year old daughter off to the local shop to buy a packet of cigarettes. The journey to the shop and back involves walking along a deserted pathway through heavy woodland. The daughter usually wears a mini-skirt and has a bare tummy.

One evening, the daughter is sexually assaulted by a dysfunctional, slightly sub-normal, drunken male of 18.

QUESTION: Do the parents bear any responsibility at all for this incident? Should they be chastised or criticized in any way at all?

pakmanishere · 2011-04-06T17:06:40+00:00

IMO, the slut walk was insulting to women.

It used women's sexuality to get public attention and donations...more like whore walk.

zyk0s · 2011-04-06T22:56:17+00:00

Here's my 2 cents. From what I've read, what the officer said was much more mitigated than that (It had to be, otherwise he would have already been shot by an angry crowd... ok, I kid). He talked about clothes, and he is a little misguided in that. Instead of talking about clothes, he should have talked about attitude: a loud, pretty girl who acts provocatively may very well attract the unwanted attention of a passing rapist. We have to be careful here:

1) rape statistics show stranger rape is extremely uncommon, that scenario is not that much more likely than stumbling upon a serial killer

2) chances are that if a rapist has a target in mind, the attitude of said target will have little influence on the outcome

3) there are many other factors that will have an impact on the chances of getting raped

So dressing provocatively will increase the likelihood of someone getting raped, statistically speaking, because it may excite a rapist and has no immediate countering effects (unless, by some stretch of logic, dressing more provocatively will attract more guys, which means the girl is less likely to be alone). Still statistically speaking, it's important to acknowledge how little of an increase it may create.

So if you look at this whole thing logically, women shouldn't be offended by the statement of this officer. I also don't particularly advise them to follow his advice, since as I just argued, it won't make much of a difference. So how about the following list, in order of how much they will actually decrease your chances of getting rapes: * Don't dress provocatively * Don't act provocatively * Don't give a man mixed signals * Don't give a drunken man mixed signals * Don't stay alone or walk back alone ... (leap in importance) * Don't drink til you pass out (yes, a lot of "spiked drinks" are actually women drinking too much. First step to avoiding trouble is being responsible

These are all objective measures, and each human being, by taking certain actions takes with them a certain amount of responsibility. It belongs to every person to make a judgement based on risk. My personal opinion: follow the last two points.

MisandryIsPoop · 2011-04-06T17:42:52+00:00

Post less, read more.

thetrollking · 2011-04-06T18:30:16+00:00

Women dressing "slutty" is creating a hostile and sexualized environment and it should be considered sexual harassment.

I should have the right to not get distracted by some attention whore trying to make all the other girls in class jealous while I am taking a exam or notes or studying in the library. If they want to dress that way, then there are places for it....hooters comes to mind.

At the office, in school, and other places it shouldn't be allowed in my opinion. I have come to the conclusion that women have different sexual triggers but with men it does cause your mind to short circuit for a moment.

Now this usually isn't anything more than arousing to minldy irriating to confusing to depressing because it is a element of female control and subjugation of men and usually isn't that big of a deal if you are just out on the street and a regular type of guy.

The thing is that not all guys are regular joes...some, usually due to fucked up abusive mothers that probably raped them as little boys or maybe female guards at their juvenile facilities or whatever, are not decent and normal guys.

Men are not born as potential rapists and even if we were we are trained 1000x more in civility than the average female and we are not likely to rape.

Let me put it this way. I can wave a steak in front of my dog and it won't bite me and steal the steak. I have conditioned it this way. But I wouldn't go to the junkyard and wave a steak infront of a rabid junkyard dog and not expect to get bitten. If I walk downt he street eating a burger then I have some reason to believe that most people walking their dogs aren't going to bite me, but I don't have that guarantee and it seems especially stupid to go to the dog park and walk around with a steak in my hand.

Maybe that is a bad analogy but there is a difference between dressing slutty and going to a open and public place and being responsible v. dressing slutty for your bf v. dressing slutty and hanging out in the hood shitfaced at 2am.

I wouldn't go down to the pound and pick up a hungry dog that I didn't know and then taunt it with a steak. That is effectively what you do when you hook up with guys that you don't know or flaunt and tease guys that you do know when they are drunk and you have some reason to suspect they have a crush on you.

On a different note. What the fuck is up with you women thinkin you can tease men like crazy. Really, I have seen so many women get off on it like it is a power trip and I suspect it is. Guys don't want to be teased to anywhere near the point you women do, if we did we wouldn't bitch about blueballs all the time. It is one thing to tease a guy for five minutes to build up tension or something but damn. What is with the power trip women get from flaunting their sex appeal over men? Are you really surprised that some unstable men might snap after teasing him for hours?

Before some 2xer wants to call me a rapist or something, I have never snapped and done anything like sexual assault but I have had gfs give me a lap day, for ex, and after 45 minutes of being teased and not fucked finally said fuck this and left and went home to some porn. At that point I rationalized that getting a release was worth the hours of bitching afterwards.

Lovekraft · 2011-04-06T20:55:24+00:00

It is COMMON SENSE.

If a guy walks down a street at night waving twenty dollar bills around then gets jumped, who is to blame?

Title	2X here, just curious
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	14
Comments	131
Date	April 6, 2011 4:19 PM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/gjzzw/2x_here_just_curious/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/2x-here-just-curious.1041310 https://theredarchive.com/post/1041310

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