What Event of Modern Feminism can MGTOW and/or Redpill reference to help "Blue Pilled" people understand its contribution to the "decline" better?

wtknight · 2021-09-06T17:02:50+00:00

Flaired Q4RP because this question seems to only address those who are red-pilled.

WerewolfPleasant · 2021-09-06T17:48:19+00:00

I think such a view is a misapprehension of men going their own way. Just like there are illegitimate feminists who basically treat it more like a women's clubhouse, typically on the internet, there's men who don't really choose to walk off the beaten path and just write the occasional screed in their internet clubhouse.

You could read through this if you're really interested in what some feel are feminists who did harm.

At the end of the day I think you'll find that men who actually walk away don't blame anyone for how things are. If there's blame they probably accept that they suffered as a result of their own choices and elect to make different choices which will lead to different outcomes. Pointing fingers? That's a waste of time. They just feel life is too short for things that don't turn out well and instead focus on the things that tend to do.

Stevefr0mYellowstone · 2021-09-06T22:04:39+00:00

Men aren't being oppressed by women, and neither are women being oppressed by men in modern times (Well, at least in the west. Obviously women are being oppressed in places like the Taliban-run Afghanistan). The better way to look at it would be to look at how feminism espouses for equality, when the fact is that women in the west have more than exceeded that, they have numerous advantages over men that they don't want to admit. There is no purpose in modern feminism in the west if its about equality. Feminism is these days more catering towards giving women more and more advantages over men in a society in which they already have advantages. Now that isn't feminism or said women "oppressing" men. It doesn't mean it isn't wrong and that men shouldn't fight against it.

If you want specific examples:

Family courts are massively biased towards women with respect to child custody, child support, alimony, etc...
Men are more harshly punished for crimes than women are for the same offense
Men are far more likely to be murdered, physically assaulted, accidentally killed on the job, etc...
Women can easily destroy men's lives with false rape accusations. Men who try to make rape accusations are typically laughed at, shamed and not believed. There's a "Believe All Women" saying but no "Believe All Men" saying
If a woman wants to abort, but the man wants to keep the child, he has no say. And likewise, if a woman wants to keep the child and the man wants to abort, the man has no say.
Women are exceedingly favored by colleges, government programs, etc...
Suicides and rates of homelessness are far higher for men than women
Women inherently have a massive advantage over men in the sexual market place from the time they are teenagers until 35 - 40 or so, arguably older. A top 15 - 20% man will absolutely hit a point where he has more value in the sexual marketplace than a woman of the same age, but for most men the woman will always have the advantage

Glarkin42 · 2021-09-06T20:55:09+00:00

So I have personally watched women of marginal competence be helped by an army of simps both individually and at institutional levels and be hired on the grounds of basically being fuckable while still trying to argue they are disadvantaged.

Ultimately women will shamelessly exploit male thirst for their own benefit. They will take help from people they will never offer anything in return to but smugly argue you should be satisfied with platonic appreciation yet they would never offer anything remotely at the level of effort themselves(either to a platonic or even non platonic individual).

goneaway2thewind · 2021-09-06T18:24:32+00:00

Well men aren't oppressed by feminism, this wave of women simply disenfranchised men from establishing a sustaining relationships.

I don't think men even hate feminism or women's equality, they hate the effect it's had. It's easy to demonize it when truly it's the natural thing for women to do. Women create the lives they want for themselves, and men can't provide enough to keep them around.

.

Paliant · 2021-09-06T21:48:04+00:00

Lets do a small economic breakdown demographically of the USA based on taxes.

Women overwhelmingly are the beneficiaries of government programs
In the USA, woman as a gender as a WHOLE(plenty of women do work hard and pay taxes) do not pay a net profit into said tax system.
Men pay a net profit in taxes. (pay more in taxes than they use in programs) Men have taxes taken out of their money from their personal labor, at the threat of imprisonment, confrontation by the state (law enforcement), and at the threat of force / violence. Also tax evasion is super illegal so that’s not an option. The only way to avoid paying into this is to work under the table. Now, since most men cannot work for just cash, they are forced to produce and send some of that value as tax revenue to perpetuate the cycle.

Part of this is also because there are not nearly as many bureaucratic government programs designed for men. Before I get flooded with comments about, “WELL WHAT ABOUT THE WOMENS WHO PAY TAXES TOO?” Yes they suffer, but based on the disparity in program availability, they could easily become a net drain on the tax system. Idk if I’d call the cycle “oppressive” but it is non-consensual.

FuckWhatYallThink · 2021-09-06T18:26:31+00:00

Women do not “oppress” men, they emotionally manipulate us.

Oppression = do as I say or I put you to death. Direct, violent, aggressive, male.

Manipulation = waaa, life is so hard for women, you are oppressing us if you dont fight the patriarchy and give us more societal/economic/legal support. Do as I say or you are a bad person. Indirect, shame based, passive aggressive, female

Women already have equality (or better) to men, outearn men, get more degrees than men, control more wealth than men, suffer less violent crime/rape than men, less workplace fatalities than men and live longer than men. Women are net tax consumers, they siphon resources from men, get less harsh sentencing than men… the list goes on

Nevertheless: waaa, life is hard for women, give us more stuff

Honestly just framing it as “point to where women oppressed you” is already biased towards women. Because oppression is not even in the female toolkit. They dont need it when they have manipulation

back_in_blyat · 2021-09-06T18:11:56+00:00

I think you asked a lot of different questions, but I will offer my two cents on one aspect. If you say anything that criticizes feminism, even if it is true, good faith, and well intentioned, you will become demonized. I have found that with any hot button issue, not even necessarily political, women act far more as a hive mind than men. Then you have the very significant portion of pathetic men who will white knight with the same absence of thought, and you end up with a culture where if you dare to speak up or raise any objections you make yourself a target.

As far as what those specific objections are than men are oppressed by - I would say that no one of any demographic is "oPpReSsED" in modern times, but some things still suck, like the family court being completely rigged against you, having no say in keeping a child if you want keep it but the mother can abort it with zero consideration for you, and the inverse if you aren't ready for a child one can be forced into the world and you become a financial slave for the next two decades once again with no consideration for your wellbeing or desire. False rape or otherwise damning allegations are far more common than people realize, and I still have psychological damage from when it happened to me, and there is zero recourse for this. While many "feminists" on reddit will claim they may even agree with some of my points, when theory becomes practice this will never be addressed because no one in any position of power within the movement actually wants equality more than they just want power and outrage.

cunningcaring · 2021-09-06T22:26:42+00:00

There is no decline. Violent crime has fallen in half in the last 25 years. Serial killers have decreased by 85% in the last twenty years. For most of the human population like has never been better.

Playful_Art_5364 · 2021-09-07T00:30:00+00:00

Men aren’t oppressed by women. At best their oppressed by a system mostly run by other men. The family courts in the US

Perseus_the_Bold · 2021-09-09T03:03:10+00:00

You are asking the wrong question.

We do not subscribe to the idea that we are oppressed. We are not participants in the Oppression Olympics. We believe we are free agents asserting our free will upon the world and making no apology for our existence.

We are simply fed up, done, tired, do not give a shit anymore, we are out of this jam becuase we are sick and tired of the Clown World's BS and giving no fucks about the consequences on our way out. That is what going our own way means: We no longer play the game.

This includes their Oppression Olympics and all notions of participation in any system that would rather that didn't think of our own best interests. We reject the rat race, we are escaping The Plantation. We're out!

or at least what events caused you to opt out of society and "enjoy the decline" instead of fight it."

The realization of the futility of action in a world where everything we do is only as meaningful as it affects our own existence. Therefore, it is clownish to participate in anything that is not conducive towards our own well being. Feminism is only a catalyst and an accelerant that precipitates men's waking realization about the greater truth of life: That it is all meaningless. Therefore it is up to us and us alone to create our own meaning separately and independently of both women and society. This is how we discover our true masculine nature because it is within masculine nature to forge meaning and craft our own pathways in life. It is therefore no coincidence that the symbol for MGTOW is a road sign, or sometimes the image of a man on the road, or just the road itself.

A man is most alive when he is in full control of his own life. A man has to be the architect of his own destiny or else he is just a puppet for someone else's designs. This is the underlying truth about masculine nature: We build ourselves. This is how a man is most alive.

Not to subscribe to any conspiracy theories here but since MGTOW is very heavy on metaphor, imagery, and symbolism and since the message has been on the ether for a decade now it is safe to say that the spirit of MGTOW and it's many symbols have spread further than the message. Exhibit A. Exhibit B. Exhibit C. Just to point out a few.

But our True Life begins with changing ourselves, with accepting reality. As the song that I previously linked says: the exit is inside our heads, and it looks like the MGTOW symbol.

So one of the major pillars of Redpill/MGTOW is Feminism's weakening of men through feminization and converting society to be more gynocentric.

This is dead wrong: One of the fundamental pillars of MGTOW is that you and you alone have the power to dictate what the meaning of your life should be. As I explained above, feminism is only a catalyst, a smack on the face that wakes men up to this realization. Feminism is therefore a Red Pill, it is what causes men to wake up.

Many seem to either resent that fact that western women believe they are oppressed at all, or resent that men cannot describe them selves as oppressed as well."

This is totally irrelevant to MGTOW: We simply don't care. Why in hell would we want to subscribe to the slavish idea that we are oppressed?

but I want to understand how people of the Manosphere believe Feminism specifically has oppressed men to a degree comparable to women by men.

We don't believe such a thing, there is your answer.

From my understanding, being oppressed is something you don't have the option to just walk away from."

Exactly, which is why we do not believe such BS. We are walking away, therefore, we are NOT oppressed and no self-respecting man going his won way has ever said that we are.

The verbiage we use concerning feminism is that Feminism is Cancer. What that means is that we believe that feminism is an abhorrently sexist ideology and a political/social movement that undermines men's essential freedoms to manifest our masculine nature. They strive to suppress our masculine expressions by creating all these legal and cultural eggshells in which we have to dance around in order to stay politically correct. MGTOW is simply a middle finger to all of that. It is the refusal to apologize for hurting their feewings and the attitude that they need to grow the fuck up and act like adults.

We say that Feminism is Cancer because it is an intellectual poison that suppresses Critical Thought and encourages the worst aspects of female nature by shrouding it in cultural and especially legal permissions that remove the consequences of their malicious behavior. One example is the "Believe all Women" campaign which in truth is a political maneuver that makes all men instantly guilty upon accusation and is therefore guilty till proven innocent. It facilitates women attacking individual men's characters for political and financial gains or even for something as petty as simply having spite against a guy and maliciously want to hurt him.

This is a debate sub for both sides, so I don't really see the point of having it if one side believes its beliefs are hard coded to men of the manosphere anyway.

That's because our male spaces within the manosphere are the only place where we can truly speak freely without censure. If you've noticed, I am holding back a lot here and censuring about 95% of what I truly have to say. This is not the place to discuss such things. This place is more concerned with the petty adolescent issues of dating. Genuine discussions of this nature are not really welcome on reddit because of the reasons I explained above concerning Feminists controlling the narrative.

AWALT is not an absolutism, it's a guideline. A rule of thumb that has predictive qualities but is not meant to be mathematically accurate because of the existence of outliers. AWALT accounts for the pattern in women's behavior but it is not mean to predict any individual women's individual actions in any given circumstance 100% of the time. AWALT means all women have the potential to do what falls under the category of female nature. It's a guideline, NOT a rule book. Human nature is very complex and it would be stupid of us to pretend like all women are the same.

Lounly · 2021-09-06T19:05:06+00:00

Good times favor women, bad times favor men. It is what it is. EU used to hand out these subsidies for businesses in regions. To qualify one has collect a certain score of points. Points are given for age (younger gets more), region (more unemployed people in the region, more points), disability, bunch of other stuff and , suprise surprise, gender. Last time I check disability gave 5 points and being a women gave 5. At first I thought what a shame and inequality. But then you think about it for two minutes and realise this is the biggest insult a woman could receive, if they like to be treated like that, so be it.

IndependenceSoft3250 · 2021-09-06T19:23:27+00:00

It's not really all feminism, the big players in pill politics recognize that. It's the versions of feminism that feminist like Christina Hoff Somers are always worried about.

The problem with pill culture is that there are disturbed, and vulnerable men, and women, seeking belonging, and genuine advice, where there is only bad advice, bitching, whining, and politics.

EstablishmentKooky50 · 2021-09-07T00:39:53+00:00

You are rarely going to find something as obvious as flatout oppression, the nature of the thing is far more covert and sneaky than that, therefore more dangerous. Men are not oppressed, definitely not by feminism per se, it's rather the system is biased in favor of women, men are referred to in negative contexts (like evil rapists, toxic or bumbling idiots) eg. demonized, while women are referred to as victims, way too often. The general claim is that the cause of most issues in society is patriarchy, eg. men. That masculinity is something that is toxic, and men should behave more like women. That something is wrong with James, because he can't sit still like Jess. That women want equal share of the cake, but for less effort in the baking. And a plathora of similar, binary "observations" that resuces othervise very complex issues into men=bad women=good (gynacentrism).

This binary resuctionism applies to how we look at history. Even you in your OP, when you brought up the voting rights for instance.. Fact is, that voting was a privilege and a burden in the same time, for those who had more skin in the game. Women were the last group, demanding woting right, and when they did it, they got it, but without thw burden of having to sign up for military duty! Another good example is that women weren't allowed to walk alone. Sure enough, the chaperones are real. Now they are more then welcome to do so, so they walk alone in fear of being raped. History was cruel to both genders, yet its always only women's suffering that is mentioned, and always in the context of blaming men and/or patriarchy. When men bring up something, we are always being told off and stamped mysogenists by some "oppressed victim". Known men (and women), who speak up for mens rights (dr. Warren Farrell) are being dragged trough the mud, and there is always a vicious smear campaign going on against them.

Tl;dr men's issues can not be real or valid and men can not be right, because we are the oppressors.

AccomplishedShow5105 · 2021-09-07T13:10:31+00:00

The truth is woman have all the power aka laws in their favor.Majority men are weak and submissive and won't try to get their power back.#BlackPill

Starter91 · 2021-09-07T14:19:26+00:00

I think best thing to do right now for male is participate as little as one can in society and see what happens in next 5 years because it feels we will have one fun ride ahead of us.

SuperSupremeKai · 2021-09-06T18:42:48+00:00

#MeToo, the sudden meteoric rise of OnlyFans, the rampant cheating, the decreasing happiness in the female population, the increase in usage of both alcohol and antidepressants...

Should I go on?

Kaisha001 · 2021-09-06T20:32:53+00:00

For most women, it is easy to point to events in history to show where governing bodies of men have quite clearly restricted their freedoms (Voting Rights) and leveraged their safety for exploitative purposes (Laws accommodating Marital Rape).

Vague, broad, misleading, and lacking nuance.

I can imagine many ways men are exploited, but I want to understand how people of the Manosphere believe Feminism specifically has oppressed men to a degree comparable to women by men. Often I see comments that dance around these topics, but this makes it sound like a conspiracy theory, so I wanted to ask about specific events that can be referenced.

Then asks for specifics.

Here's the problem. If we give specifics (and I've seen MANY examples) given in the past/other threads, it's dismissed as not applying broadly enough (it was just that 1 instance, it was just 1 guy, that rarely happens). Then of course when broad examples are discussed the response is 'be specific'.

Bottom line, the narrative fed by feminists is a lie. The examples given are either cherry picked, or lacking context/nuance (ie. women were denied the vote only because the idea of forcing conscription on them/sending them into battle was inconceivable by both genders).

Imagine if feminists were held to the same standard of proof as the 'manosphere'...

Ziogatto · 2021-09-06T19:26:05+00:00

Some guy figured this out thousands of years ago.

“Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny.” - Aristotle

Brilliant-Hornet1916 · 2021-09-07T23:18:17+00:00

Feminism claims to be an equality movement but really it's just a trade union for women, they want the best deal possible for women in all areas.

- Feminists think it's imperative that women have at least 50% representation in certain male dominated fields like engineering for example - however they've no interest in pushing for men to have 50% representation in female dominated fields. Feminists also have no interest in having equal representation in anything they deem undesirable like sewage workers or trash collectors which are almost exclusively male - it really demonstrates that equality is of no interest to them, it's just getting the best deal for the sisterhood.

- Feminists completely misuse statistics to push a false narrative e.g. wage gap which doesn't take into account hours worked, time spent on leave, education, experience etc.

- Feminists have no interest in addressing actual systemic bias like men receiving harsher sentences than women for the same crime. Also no interest in addressing the bias towards women in family court.

- Feminists have a problem whenever there's a gap that favours men, but they have no problem when there's a gap that favours women - e.g. homelessness being predominantly male, suicide being predominantly male (and rising). They've no problem when almost all workplace accidents and deaths are male. They have no problem that women outnumber men at university nearly 2:1 in the US. They have no problem that boys are doing worse in school as each decade passes they fall further and further behind.

- Feminists silences male victims of abuse at the hands of women by labelling men as "privileged oppressors" and women as "oppressed" - when men are constantly told they are the oppressors and they are privileged it's no wonder men don't feel comfortable reporting domestic violence and rape at the hands of their female partners. And the ones that do report, they're not taken seriously because of the feminist narrative that women are the victims in this world. They then have the audacity to claim men don't report because of patriarchal standards of toxic masculinity, feminism is one giant gaslighting experiment.

- Feminists have often protested and tried to shut down men's rights events that deal with issues like male suicide.

- Feminists have removed due process from the world and now a man's trial is done at the hands of the public and his guilt is assumed whenever an accusation is thrown his way.

- Feminists mis-represent where gender expectations come from by pushing a false "patriarchy" narrative. For example they always claim that men can't express their emotions because of the patriarchy and their toxic masculinity to effectively blame men for their own suffering. Completely ignoring that men being shamed for emotional weakness is derived from women's mate preferences for mentally strong and stable men. It absolves women of any responsibility for the shaming they do of men, feminists drink from mugs that say "male tears" and mock men for expressing their opinions with "awww, did the poor men get his feelings hurt?"

- Feminists are complete hypocrites on many issues. Body shaming being one. You get into a debate with any feminist and her first instinct will be to suggest the man is short, or has small genitals. They complain about toxic masculinity but then shame men by labelling them virgins or incels for having an opinion different to their own.

calfshrug · 2021-09-06T17:12:37+00:00

Society is a popularity contest based on the superficial, the reactionary, trifling, and sexual or hedonistic pleasure. Society is able to be a like this because of immense suffering that was borne by people in the past, many of whom were men. Women have always held a crucial role in all of this, but for most of history, that role was exclusively child-rearing, and there are some huge growing pains with that shift

MrShakedown1 · 2021-09-06T17:45:47+00:00

Put higher taxes on their work and give higher benefits not working people.

Plopolok · 2021-09-07T02:53:26+00:00

Here's a funny anecdote: this post, titled Why do men take such interest in avoiding child support, but so little interest in avoiding pregnancy? almost frames the issue of the absence of male-side contraception as a flaw of men. Men are asked to justify why they don't do more, why they leave the burden to women. Now, imagine if for some reason scientists had discovered a male pill but not a female pill. Bluepillers would then complain that it's so unfair, that it is due to the misogyny of patriarchal scientists who don't want to give any agency to women, that good men should use their contraceptive options only to benefit women, etc.

If you want a more "real" example, you could read this, about the laws against domestic violence in Spain. It's only in Spain, but I suppose a lot of feminists around the world would want the same in their country.

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LMM-GT02 · 2021-09-06T20:26:15+00:00

Hegelian dialectics, or social and political alchemy.

Shoutout to James Lindsay

Goodthingstartssmall · 2021-09-06T23:28:03+00:00

Case Kachelmann and Case Gina Lisa Lohfink did the start.

And basically every public known rape case.

It wasn't the result in itself that bothered me but the fact that basically all people are instantly shooting at the guy as he is one hundred percent guilty. If you saw the movie "Prisoners" with Hugh Jackman. Imagine what he is doing to Paul Danos character and imagine he is doing this in public and people are cheering for him.

Blackagar59 · 2021-09-10T07:12:53+00:00

It's mostly because modern feminism lack self critique, yeah, theoretically feminism wants equallity between men and women, in practise only cares about women's rights.

For example there's a ratio of almost 2 females for each man in the university, yet universitary males make on average more money because women then to specialise in social studies and men in engineering.

To a feminist the problem is men make more money, because women are not encouraged to study engineering.

To me the problem is there a 2/1 ratio and peoples personal choice of career is not of anyones concern.

Also there's plenty of issues where feminists are spot on, specially most things related to sex, but that's off topic egarding the question.

Title	What Event of Modern Feminism can MGTOW and/or Redpill reference to help "Blue Pilled" people understand its contribution to the "decline" better?
Author	WerewolfPleasant
Upvotes	5
Comments	93
Date	September 6, 2021 1:43 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/pizoef/what_event_of_modern_feminism_can_mgtow_andor/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-event-of-modern-feminism-can-mgtow-andor.1067715 https://theredarchive.com/post/1067715

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