Is it better to reject the labels, or reclaim them?

a-man-from-earth · 2022-11-14T16:43:10+00:00

I think we need to fight against the stereotypes, especially the false ones. We need to say: I am a man, but we need more modern interpretations of what it means to be a man.

Women were (largely) liberated from traditional expectations, now it's the turn of men to be liberated too.

SpicyMarshmellow · 2022-11-14T18:03:10+00:00

I'm just like you on the gender identity front. Being 39, I grew up identifying as male based on my anatomy, and whatever people think of as being masculine has never been important to me or had any conscious effect on my behavior. I grew my hair down to the middle of my back in college and was mistaken for a girl nearly every time I went out in public. I didn't care, and didn't even bother to correct people most of the time. I just thought it was funny.

In today's discourse, I think that would make me nonbinary/agender. But I continue to identify as male. Because I can be whoever I want to be, be male, and there's nothing wrong with it.

If we both accept the gender as social construct concept, and assert that the social construct for masculinity is primarily toxic traits. Then we've constructed a framework where you're either toxic or not a man. By definition. And that's supposed to be the progressive thing now? Fuck that. It's abhorrent. I protest. I'll identify as male while exhibiting none of those traits.

Also, we don't need a new model or re-definition of masculinity. We don't need a script. People are individuals. We can be and are capable of being whoever we want to be, and should all do nothing less or more than what works for us. We need to divorce preconceptions and expectations from either gender. Personal traits are personal, and to be assessed as to whether they're contextually healthy and/or understandable for that individual, their environment, and their personal history, period, with zero regard for whether it has anything to do with their gender.

I don't need to identify as something else. I need to not be judged for my identity.

Edit: Besides, it won't actually do much for the consequences of misandry that anyone who looks like a man faces in everyday life. If you identify as non-binary, that's not going to stop a Karen from calling the cops when you take your own kids to the park.

echonian · 2022-11-14T17:33:31+00:00

If the label is stupid, we can reject it.

If the label is a basic descriptor though that has no reasonable substitute, then we should 100% use it properly and not allow others to act like it's some kind of slur.

The idea that the word "male" is a bad word is laughable from any reasonable perspective.

Male after all is a term applied to biological sex in a scientific sense by definition - it is based on your genitals and genetics, and has nothing to do with gender identity (which you could argue being a "man" might, but that's another discussion). Calling yourself "nonbinary" in short has nothing to do with whether or not you are "male," though it might make it so you are not a "man" in a sense.

But I think that's beside the point. Men and women, males and females, and so on are all free to act however we want regardless of stereotypes regarding our sex or gender. So if you don't feel like you associate with typical men in terms of personality, well - that's true of tons of men, and doesn't mean you need to identify as trans or nonbinary or whatever unless you personally want to.

"I'm male and I'm not like that"

That's something you should never have to say. You don't own an explanation to anyone for how you're not like someone's stereotype of billions of people world-wide, because anybody who is stereotyping you in that way isn't likely to care about your reasoning in the first place.

Ultimately I think you're free to identify as you want in terms of gender. But if people are comfortable to attack millions of people as a group, the problem I think lies with their prejudice rather than with your use of labels. You can attempt to convince them of where they are wrong, or approach things in a way less likely to get you personally attacked, but that's up to you.

Edit: So in short, I would argue you should use the words that describe yourself properly, "reclaiming" them rather than switching your labels for convenience. I think you should only switch how you identify if you truly feel that identity switch matches how you want to live your life, rather than being done because it makes things easier.

Kuato2012 · 2022-11-14T22:42:46+00:00

I reclaim the labels in everyday life. I'm quite comfortable identifying as a man even though I possess a mix of male and female stereotypes. I'll wrench on my motorcycle one minute and have a girly drink the next. That just means the label "man" need not be so restrictive and confining.

Never identify as male on any sort of form other than medical forms though. On job applications or similar, I always choose nonbinary or "prefer not to answer." If people who actually identify as nonbinary find that upsetting, tough... I refuse to truthfully answer a question whose only purpose is to discriminate against me.

rbrockway · 2022-11-15T06:22:42+00:00

And, by the same token, a non-binary trans person is all the more likely to be taken seriously talking about gender issues by virtue of not being male.

Which is a big part of the problem. A person's physical characteristics ought not to matter as to whether they should be taken seriously or not. That's the direction Western Civilisation was moving until the rise of identity politics.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." -- Martin Luther King Jr.

Delicious-Tea-6718 · 2022-11-16T21:50:54+00:00

Men don't know what it's like to lack reproductive autonomy.

They seem to assume that we don't know what it's like to be a woman while simultaneously think they know exactly what it's like to be a man. They have infinitely more reproductive autonomy than a man has. A man has none

hshsgdve · 2022-11-14T16:57:35+00:00

Men are men. Period.

Most men follow typically masculine traits.

Doesn’t mean you have to follow those traits in order to be a man.

It’s just that 90% of men are most fulfilled being this way.

But 90% of men like pussy. Doesn’t mean the 10% who like dick aren’t men. Gay men just divert from the most common / norm of men on that particular trend point.

Martijngamer · 2022-11-14T17:08:24+00:00

Reclaim them. By rejecting them, you are giving the power to these bigots to define what is a man, and you are giving into the idea that we should find it acceptable that bigots abuse a medical condition to make up for their lack of a personality.

By rejecting the label of who you are, you are giving into the idea that being a man is something bad. Now, I understand the difficulty in dealing with bigots, but from the perspective of advocativing, do not give in to bigotry. That's like telling a black American in the 1800s to advocate for being seen as white.

To be transgender is a medical condition. And people with that medical condition deserve all the help that they can reasonably get. But transtrenders who abuse a real medical condition to make themselves seem more interesting, can go [censored]. To equate actually feeling like you're in the wrong body, with having a personality that is not 100% in line with traditional stereotypes, is absolutely disgusting in my book. Just because I sometimes wear pink t-shirts and don't like football doesn't mean I'm non-binary. By adepting the term non-binary, not only are you showing acceptance of bigots who think there is something wrong with being a man, you are also showing acceptance of bigots who abuse medical conditions for their own selfish ego.

thepogopogo · 2022-11-15T00:46:05+00:00

If people think that being male inherently comes with certain stereotypical attributes and attitudes that is a problem with their perception of reality, not a problem for my maleness. If I encounter any of those assumptions in the wild then I do my reasonable best to enlighten, but some people aren't for turning, regardless of the evidence they'll never change their minds.

I am a man, I like some stereotypical "manly" things, and not others. I don't think masculinity is inherently toxic, and as I find joy in being what I am I'll stick to advocating from a position of maleness.

Alataire · 2022-11-14T17:01:59+00:00

There is no point arguing with people who are bigoted and refuse to change their mind. If they refuse at all to change their view or come to a common understanding, end the discussion and either avoid the subject or the person. Alternately if you enjoy it you can start arguing in the same way about how women are "X", where you talk about "bad women' and not "all women".

As for other situations: If it is practical, you can always exploit the modern nonsense, state you identify as a nonbinary/trans and get that diversity position. If it doesn't benefit you, you can always stick to your gun and be unapologetically a man. You being you and not caring about all the bullshit around you is somewhere between the stereotypes of being a man.

frackingfaxer · 2022-11-15T03:12:32+00:00

On the one hand, saying "That's not me so I must not be male" feels like a cop-out. It feels like a concession to those who slander people based on their gender.

On the other hand, "I'm male and I'm not like that" seems to carry zero weight as an argument. It's always met with "That's exactly what you'd say if you were like that" or else, "obviously I don't mean you, when I say 'men' I'm using it as a synecdoche for 'bad men', not 'all men'--and before you ask, no, I don't hear the shocking sexism in this statement and no amount of argument will change that."

And, by the same token, a non-binary trans person is all the more likely to be taken seriously talking about gender issues by virtue of not being male.

So...which is preferable: to attempt to advocate from a position of maleness, or non-maleness?

Now that is a tricky one.

Yes, you will definitely be taken more seriously in discussions about gender issues. However, that's only because you now qualify as a "non-man" and your words, therefore, carry more weight by virtue of the fewer privileges and additional oppressions you face in the intersectional game of oppression Olympics. I have definitely noticed a lot more women able to say things, either supportive of men's issues or critical of aspects of feminism, that they probably wouldn't be able to get away with if they were a man. I'm fairly certain if Camille Paglia had been a man, she'd have been lynched by a mob decades ago.

It seems like a low blow to stoop to such tactics, but then again, considering what we're up against and how hopeless our cause feels sometimes, maybe? I don't know. Do whatever you're comfortable with, whatever feels authentic to you.

I'm inclined to say that you don't sound very authentically non-binary, just apathetic about the whole notion of gender, but then I realize that's not really a topic I have any expertise with. Perhaps our resident AMAB non-binary mod u/2717192619192 would like to chime in?

BloomingBrains · 2022-11-15T08:06:31+00:00

In my opinion, the only correct way to answer "what is a man" is with "whatever the fuck he wants to be." Its literally just a question asked at the intersection of biology and identity.

I'm a man, but I identify with almost no aspects of traditional masculinity. I'm a man, but I'm also a femboy who likes wearing dresses and looking cute. I'm not competitive or aggressive or macho at all, etc. I wouldn't want to be described as "manly", but I would be offended, though, at being called "not a man". Its just funny how identity works like that sometimes, I guess.

You should call yourself whatever you want to call yourself. The tactical benefits to your arguments are not something really worth considering, IMO.

EricAllonde · 2022-11-15T00:37:11+00:00

Personally I think there’s only one worthwhile way to respond to misandrists/feminists (sorry for the tautology) when they smear men: “Get fucked”.

I’m done tolerating bigotry that would be entirely socially unacceptable if directed at any other demographic group other than men. I’m perfectly happy to forcefully tell those feminists what I think of them and cut them out of my life. I make sure that I never spend money on any film, music, product or service produced by feminist artists or companies. We all need to cut off the flow of money that’s funding misandry.

It’s time to go hardcore.

Ballblamburglurblrbl · 2022-11-15T02:15:31+00:00

I like the labels of "man" and "masculine." I feel like there must be some internal experience men have that makes us feel like men, to the point where people who don't feel it are increasingly starting to identity as trans or non-binary. I like the idea of having not just one script for masculinity, but many, to the point that it encompasses basically anyone who truly feels like they are a man.

So...which is preferable: to attempt to advocate from a position of maleness, or non-maleness?

Morally speaking, I feel like as long as there's advocacy it doesn't really matter. Your gender doesn't make you better or worse than anyone else.

On a practical level, though - I feel like it would depend a lot on the situation. Being a man probably does carry more weight when discussing men's issues in most spaces. At the same time, there's something heart-warming about seeing a woman actively advocating for men's issues; within circles that might be resistant to discussion of men's issues, I can see how that could be more productive.

On the one hand, saying "That's not me so I must not be male" feels like a cop-out. It feels like a concession to those who slander people based on their gender.

I feel like it's pretty weird to consider what the people you disagree with would say when trying to figure out stuff about your gender. Like, your personal, internally experienced gender identity has nothing to do with them.

Valzemodeus · 2022-11-15T02:51:16+00:00

First of all, many of those arguments and stereo types come from what I would consider positions of staggering ignorance or wilful dishonesty.

"Men not understanding a lack of reproductive autonomy" alone is just skewed so badly.

\steeples fingers**

I am going to attempt to respond to your question with another series of questions.

Should you choose to designate yourself non-binary, will anything actually change about you?

Will you not then have to go through the process of crafting and destroying whole new stereotypes? Because stereotypes of what it means to be someone who identifies as non-binary will happen. For the most part, they already have.

Will you be able to control other people who identify as non-binary? Because you will have to dispel any perceptions that you don't like, which they create regarding what non-binary means.

Will you be happier addressing those stereotypes instead?

You are you.

No matter what you wear or how you present yourself, people will have preconceptions. Your hair is (color). People will have opinions on it. You have a (genital). People will have preconceptions about how you are expected to behave.

My understanding is that the whole concept of gender is in fact meant to address how some people do not fit into normal biological sexual expectations of behavior. A way to separate the biological aspects of sex from the social aspects in an effort to better understand norms and deviations in behavior.

You will find that no matter what you call yourself, you are likely encounter stereotypes.

I consider your question, and it makes me think of how a friend of mine once described how they perceived someone else's outlook.

"I'm me. You're you. And?"

To me, that is at times the perfect answer in regards to other people's perceptions.

crz8956 · 2022-11-15T07:53:36+00:00

I'm told what men are on a regular basis.

Also to be a man is to decide yourself what man should be. You know, dirty patriarchal privilege of not giving a fuck about what other people say.

griii2 · 2022-11-15T09:19:15+00:00

I feel you man. I read this today, sometimes it just weights me down.

https://www.thecollegefix.com/tired-of-white-cis-men-event-draws-bias-complaints-at-gettysburg-college/

Blauwpetje · 2022-11-16T21:29:27+00:00

Don’t confuse (negative) stereotypes with real differences between men and women. Reclaim being a man, admit that it comes with advantages and disadvantages, fight against stereotypes.

rbrockway · 2022-11-15T01:43:19+00:00

Men are violent.

I think the evidence says otherwise. Think back to the last time you saw a person strike another person. In real life, on Netflix, whatever. There's a very high probability you witnessed a woman striking a man.

Men do more damage when they are violent. Perhaps because of this most men tend to be quite reserved in their use of violence.

Skirt_Douglas · 2022-11-14T17:11:19+00:00

I think we need to do both or either depending on what label we are specifically taking about. Negative stereotypes against men in general need to be called out and fought, however there are some things that should be reclaimed. One of feminism’s main propaganda strategies is to taking a positive masculine trait, and then inverting it into something negative, then repackaging it with a new label, usually just attaching “man” to the beginning of the word. One example of this is mansplaining. An explanation is a moral good, it is the communication of useful information. Humans would never have left the forest if we didn’t communicate. If men get an extra enjoyment out of explaining things to people (which we might, I certainly do), this is a blessing, it is a peer of what makes humans successful. The desire to teach is the desire to contribute and I society. I have been in situation where I felt I didn’t need a teaching, or where I felt the person explaining didn’t respect what I already know and was treating me like I know nothing. I completely understand how bad it feels to be condescended to, however condescension in an explanation is neither gendered, nor common. The vast majority of the times when a feminist or non-feminist lashes out at a man explaining, he isn’t being condescending, he is doing his best to help. If a man is trying to help you and you can help but interpret it negatively, it is your insecurity that is the problem. To lash out because a man tried to help you is a sign of social disfunction, not victimhood.

The desire to explain is good, as are many other masculine traits that get slandered, these should be reclaimed.

Interesting_Doubt_17 · 2022-11-14T22:13:04+00:00

As far as I know, there is a difference between identifying with a certain gender identity and rejecting a label because other people are stereotyping you in a negative way or in any other way.

Amazing-Bit6140 · 2022-11-14T20:57:48+00:00

Reject.

Every community that has "claimed" the labels has only "claimed" enacting the discrimination against themselves, instead of diminishing it.

CzechoslovakianJesus · 2022-11-14T21:27:08+00:00

When attempting to divorce gender from, sex manhood and womanhood were reduced to nothing more than cheap stereotypes. "Blue is for boys and pink is for girls, so if you like blue you're a boy and if you like pink you're a girl. And if you don't like either you're non-binary."

imnotworkingnow · 2022-11-14T17:49:04+00:00

I do like whiskey...

devasiaachayan · 2022-11-15T00:18:23+00:00

In my case, I can't take any other label except "man" Because of where I live. But it's always better to never label yourself bec labels always carry baggages

CosimaX999 · 2022-11-15T14:55:12+00:00

I don’t fit hardly any gender assumptions and norms for a male Other than looking masculine and being biologically a male. What I mean is that I don’t provide for anyone even at my age of 36 years. Instead my family provides for me. I don’t work or make any money myself as my money comes from family and government social security disability. So I’m a taker not a provider. I have no wife or girlfriend or children I take care of and don’t plan for any. I’m single and do not want women and children in my life period. I dont care anything about guns and I’m not violent and do not ever vote republican but libertarian. I’m a homemaker because I don’t work any job And haven’t gone to a job in over 6 years. Ive never had alcohol In my life. I don’t think about abortion and don’t care. I’ve never even thought of sexually harassing a female or even thought sexually about a female period because im exclusively attracted to other males only, im a homosexual male. Only sexual harassment experience was where I was the victim of a girl who kept touching my hair and saying sexual things to me In high school. I’ve never been in the military or war because I don’t trust governments and their reasons for war, I think warfare is just an immoral crime. So I don’t fit any of the male gender assumptions you mentioned.

lingdingwhoopy · 2022-11-16T17:56:02+00:00

I'm still struggling with the fact the deck is so stacked against good faith discussion on men's issues that merely advocating for it instantly makes you an incel, sexist, misogynist, etc who disregards and downplays women's issues.

Even people I greatly respect and agree with 98% of the time still fail to simply acknowledge men's issues. And if they do it's backhanded and dismissive.

I believe in intersectionality. I believe, and can openly observe, how power structures have disadvantaged certain demographics over others and in different ways.

I'm also old enough to know people, to know humanity. I've known misogynist, abusive men. But I've also known misandrist, abusive women.

PEOPLE fucking suck.

StatisticianBig6210 · 2022-11-17T00:15:52+00:00

I'm going to fill in a third option as advocate from a position of addressing the issues themselves, and caring about men as fellow humans. The more you concern yourself with the optics, the harder it is to be transparent when needed, and if there's anything men's advocacy doesn't need more of, it's lack of transparency.

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