Questions from a feminist

Neurotikitty · 2013-07-30T19:32:13+00:00

I'd like to believe that you want a legitimate discussion and are not being a troll, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt:

Oppression is a loaded term, and I don't like it . Men are generally no more "oppressed" than women are in Western society. Mainly, you'll find that they are hindered by restrictive gender roles (just like women), and are subject to certain legal inequalities, which include: longer sentences for the same crimes (compared to women), unequal treatment in custody battles and divorce court, and an obligation to sign up for selective service (whereas women are not). That's just a sample of issues.
I don't dislike most feminists. The average person who identifies as a feminist is usually a good person who just wants gender equality (though plenty of people are hindered by societal double standards when they try to picture what real equality looks like). What I dislike, however, is Patriarchy theory, which many feminists rely on to inform their entire worldview. I do not subscribe to the idea that androcentric gender roles primarily oppress women and benefit men. I see the problem as a systematic, culturally enforced set of gender roles that hinder both men and women, and provide some unfortunate privileges to both men and women. Men are not primarily responsible for the suffering of women, and women are not primarily responsible for the suffering of men. I do think women's rights activists are necessary, but both MRAs and WRAs should operate from a framework of egalitarianism.
I don't understand this question. Ideally men and women should have equal rights and responsibilities in all legal and social circumstances. In terms of what has changed, I think we've moved closer to gender equality in the past several decades than we have really been in all of Western history, but there is much progress to be made. It doesn't help that the concerns of men are often brushed aside in favor of focus on women's issues.
That's really what this entire sub is meant to discuss, so I don't think it's really helpful to try and name every issue or potential solution right here.

KRosen333 · 2013-07-30T19:39:44+00:00

Males are affected by the patriarchy as well. But moving on.

I reject the notion of patriarchy.

Do you truly believe that men are oppressed anywhere? What is the evidence for this oppression? Who, in your mind, causes men to be oppressed?

Are you a man? If yes, have you ever been molested by a woman? If yes, have you ever told anybody about it and been told that "You clearly wanted it" ? Has anybody ever thought you were gay because you didn't want to have sex with a particular girl? Have you ever felt discriminated against because of that? Many of these are instances in which men are... well, I wouldn't use the word oppressed, but I know feminists would.

This is ONE area. Has anybody ever thrown you out of a store for being 'creepy' ? How about because you were with your niece at the store?

For those of you who dislike feminists, why? What do you think is wrong with feminism? Do you think feminism is necessary or not?If not, why? Do you have any questions about feminism or something you dont understand about it?

There are 2 forms - academic and real world lobby.

Academic - Male privilege and patriarchy; these two things dictate to us that "Men are bad, girls are good". Anything men accomplish are because of male privilege, anything that is bad for men is because of patriarchy. It drains every female of any wrongdoing towards men, and even turns male victims into the criminals in many circumstances.

Real World - this can be seen by looking at femnist lobbies, especially ones that fight against classifying female on male rape as rape (right now it is only an elevated sexual assault charge), or enforcing custody rights for fathers. (there are more but my time is limited today)

In an ideal world in your eyes as an MRA, what are the conditions for men and women? What has changed?

This is a complex topic that needs a thread of its own.

What are the biggest male issues, and what can be done to solve them?

Bringing attention to them. The fact that today, more and more people, even feminists who hate men, can acknowledge that women CAN rape men, is a step in the right direction. Feminism could choose to stop playing the victim card and start fighting for everybody - that would be a huge step in the right direction for feminism.

I would really like some answers to better understand this movement, so please at least answer some of my questions if possible.

I will refine these answers if you are interested in a conversation on them, but alas, it will have to wait until a bit later, as I said I am short on time.

:) welcome to mens rights, if you have any actual issues (this is not feminism, so note our rules are very different and much more relaxed), contact the mods over there --->

saint2e · 2013-07-30T19:38:02+00:00

1) Honestly, I feel like the only time men are oppressed is when dealing in family courts. Child Support is a classic examples of this. We've got men paying money for kids that they a) didn't want in the first place, b) were tricked into conceiving, or c) don't realize aren't even their kids. I don't believe there's a "Who" who is responsible, more so the legal system around marriage/divorce/child support. Certainly feminist lobbyist groups have also helped develop the system as it is, so I feel that there is some "blame" there, as well.

2) I dislike hypocrites and liars. A lot of feminists happen to fall into these categories. The reason is that feminists (not the whole group, but individuals claiming to be feminists) will wave the flag of equality in one breath, and spout some pretty vitriolic hypocrisy in the next. I dislike the Feminism is supposedly the only organization you can support with regards to gender equality, especially given that time and time again, men's issues are not being addressed in a meaningful way. It's touted as a one-stop shop, but unfortunately only sells products for one gender.

3) In an ideal world, people would have equal rights and equal responsibilities. Unfortunately right now, we have (for the most part) equal rights, but I feel that men are shouldering more than their fair share of responsibilities.

4) The concept of male disposability and the lack of respect for men in general. I'm not delusional to think that there's not a crapload of "bad men" out there, but I honestly feel that our gender as a whole has been villified and demonized for the propping up and advancement of feminist ideology, and quite frankly it's insulting.

I'm sure that just like you, people dismissing Feminism as all "Feminazis" is distasteful, men also feel this way when men's issues are dismissed out of hand.

ThePigman · 2013-07-31T01:50:09+00:00

"Males are affected by the patriarchy as well."

Couldn't take it seriously after being thrown that old chestnut.

Mlezi · 2013-07-30T20:27:54+00:00

[permanently deleted]

lazlounderhill · 2013-07-30T20:55:57+00:00

You start with the assumption of patriarchy - it's overly simplistic, and it's the shakey foundation upon which feminism has built its fortress of rhetoric. Many of us don't accept the concept. No one accepts it as an idea that in anyway repreresents contemporary western society. "patriarchy hurts men" is a fallacious argument, because it assumes that patriarchy actually exists, as it is (not-so-well) defined by feminism.

1- You've answered your own question and validated it's existence in your own post "male rape and abuse, alimony, societal expectations for men" I would add the unfair treatment with regard to child custody, institutionalized "guilty until proven innocent" with regard to sexual assault on a growing number of campuses, and overall discrimination against men in the legal/criminal/justice system, therein oppression definitely can be found and feminism has played a significant and undeniable role in that. The evidence is apparent in the rate of male suicide, the disintigration of the family unit, the widespread cavalier attitude toward divorce and divorce rates in the west, plummeting marriage rates, and the dismal and dwindling state of parenthood in western society. The demands of contemporary life are not compatible with single-parenthood, and those demands are, and will, only increase. Since most new births (I think it's safe to say) are the result of heterosexual coupling, you cannot continue to diminish, socially disenfranchise, villainize and or dismiss one half of that equation (half of the population), without dire, even catastrophic, consequences to subsequent generations of men and women, and therefore society. MRM recoginizes this universally, and will persist not because our feelings are hurt, but because to not resist would mean acquiescing to the ultimate collapse of civilization. Some extreme feminists welcome such a collapse (in all seriousness), but what they don't realize is that there is no recovering from it - such a collapse would lead the world of humankind straight back to square one and egalitarianism will be a moot point in that scenario.

2- "Disliking feminists" is not the same as "disliking some of the negative consequences that feminism has had on men" (see #2). I personally don't base my "like or dislike" for a person on whatever they ideaology they align themselves with. Feminism is such an amorpheous idealogy that it's really an irrational statement to say "I don't like feminists" because people who call themselves feminists vary so widely in belief and degree (the same could be said for the MRM, honestly).

Feminism is no longer necessary (certainly not in its present form, as wispy as that it is), especially in the west - and it's arrogant to think that western feminists have, or should have, a say in cultures so different, and perhaps with such ancient pedigrees, that perhaps no one group or individual on earth has a right, or the ability to comprehend, the implications of certain practices deemed misogynistic. In this way, western feminism is more than a little culturally egocentric. I'm sure that feminism would not have approved of certain native american cultural norms and practices, so the ethics of meddling in indigineous, or non-western social, cultural and religious practices and beliefs is dubious at best. The world is getting far too small to accomodate cultural/religious/ethnocentricity.

3- For me - true egalitarianism - with no exceptions. Many MRA's feel the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, resulting in a new imbalance (as pendulums are inclined to do). The original egalitarian intent of feminism has been eclipsed by something destructive, hate-filled, and oppressive. It refuses and resists introspection and objective criticism both from within and without, and in that way it has come to resemble a cult. It suppresses language and free speech (and therefore free and independent thought) with zealotry, guru mandates and guru worship - it seeks change without compromise via extremism. It no longer participates in activism, but operates more like a cartel. It is continually, almost gleefully, guilty of making the same kind of wide sweeping claims and assumptions that I suspect inspired it's conception in the first place. The misandry is palpable and readily apparent in its extreme forms to the vast majority of reasonable human beings on this planet, and it will, mark my words, undo any good that feminism has done for men and women, and do harm to society 10 fold by the sheer passion of its spite.

Inbefore121 · 2013-07-30T21:12:45+00:00

Do you truly believe that men are oppressed anywhere?

I personally avoid the term 'oppression' when it comes to gender politics because I feel the term is used too loosely and is watered down from it's actual meaning/connotation. For example the 'oppression' that men and women faced in say the 1830s when the social structure forced men and women firmly into their gender roles, (although it was very restrictive and abysmal) pales in comparison to how black people were treated at the same time (lynchings, being burned alive, castrated and left to bleed to death etc etc.) but that's a digression. But to answer your question: "Yes'. I do believe that men face very serious issues and part of what contributes to this oppression is society's unwillingness to recognize and acknowledge these issues, mainly as a result of the view of 'male privilege' or 'universal male privilege'.

What is the evidence for this oppression?

That is an excellent question. To note a few examples: Male rape victims (especially those with female perpetrators) are often ignored, victim blamed, shamed, silenced, and told that they're claims of rape are not legitimate, that they are liars and sometimes even "laughed out of the police station". While i will agree that this also happens to women, the degree to which men experience this is not the same. I remember I was reading about a story where a man was captured and gang raped by four women in their car after he asked for a ride home. (he was leaving a night club) And to my utter disgust, as i was reading the comments on the article (it was linked on Facebook at the time) there were men saying 'he wasn't raped, I would pay to have sex with four women' and 'That guy was pretty lucky' and there were women making remarks as to how "fake" the article was and how "women can never rape men" These are some of the major social views that we MRAs are trying to change. Also check out the many cases where there are 12-13 year old boys being raped by 20-30 year old women and the women suing them for child support! All these things happening right under our noses and yet society doesn't bat an eye. Don't you take an issue with that? This is just to name a few examples. If you would like more I would recommend checking our the sidebar and lurking for a while. It was a real eye opener for me. :) (blew my freakin mind)

Who, in your mind, causes men to be oppressed?

Society, social perceptions of men, social perceptions or women, social perceptions of interactions between men and women, Duluth model studies, and a few others. This will tie into why MRAs dislike Feminism/Feminists.

For those of you who dislike feminists, why? What do you think is wrong with feminism? Do you think feminism is necessary or not?If not, why? Do you have any questions about feminism or something you dont understand about it?

There are multiple reasons why MRAs dislike Feminism. One main contributor is the "men can stop rape" campaign and it's subsets. There are many issues and fallacies intrinsic to this message. One it paints all men as perpetrators of rape, when in reality that is false. It also paints all men as rapists/pedophiles in general. And as a result of this message being pushed into the mainstream sector for decades, society has internalized it. This has become one of the main factors in the demonetization of males in society. The evidence for this as astounding. whether you see it in the rule book of some airlines that say that men can't sit next to un-attended minors on airlines, to the fact that males don't even legally qualify as rape victims, unless they were raped by another man We feel that is is unfair to blame all men for a crime that small population of sociopathic people commit. This message also facilitates a fear and hatred of males based on that (among other things) fear, that is somewhat prevalent in society. This is one facet (and contributor) of misandry. When it comes to the evidence to support this anti-male message, Feminism has been known to utilize intellectually dishonest means to get the 'facts' to support the theories. (also I really don't mean this to seem like a personal attack on you, if it seems that way, I apologize, but, this is the answer to your question[s]) Things like Duluth model studies that used biased and purposefully non nondescript questionnaires, were what was used to produce the numbers behind many feminist studies and statistics. These stats have been monumental in shaping the view's in the public sphere on Sexual assault, Domestic Violence, The wage disparity, as well as social perceptions of Men, Women in general. There are many other grievances but it is a lot to write. Again i recommend looking at the sidebar for more information, plus links :)

In an ideal world in your eyes as an MRA, what are the conditions for men and women? What has changed?

I just want men and women to be treated equally no one gender having preferential treatment over the other. Equality all around, Equity when needed.

What are the biggest male issues, and what can be done to solve them?

Well I listed a few and gave some examples earlier in the text, but to be concise those issues would be (off the top of my head) : Recognizing male rape victims, (regardless of the gender of they're rapist) http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjl4T_-oM0g

False rape accusations, (holding false rape accusers fully accountable for they're actions, not having a presumption of guilt for every rape case where the perp is a man [it really impedes justice/fairness]) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjl4T_-oM0g

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/14pwn2/a_story_of_how_a_false_rape_accusation_caused_a/

Rectifying the gender sentencing disparity. http://www.terry.uga.edu/~mustard/sentencing.pdf

Recognizing male victims of DV (its perpetrated by men and women roughly evenly) http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

And the Child support/ Child custody Disparity. http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/14pwn2/a_story_of_how_a_false_rape_accusation_caused_a/

As well as many social discrimination http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP4VeMJp9pE&feature=watch_response#t=4m45s ( also if you don't wanna listen to the guy talk you can skip to 04:42) http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2011/09/09/again-utah-forces-adoption-on-fit-fathers-child/

......and many more. But that was my attempt to answer your questions. Thank you for your time, and welcome to r/Mensrights!

All the best -Inbefore121

AeneaLamia · 2013-07-30T19:35:29+00:00

Do you truly believe that men are oppressed anywhere? What is the evidence for this oppression? Who, in your mind, causes men to be oppressed?

No, not everywhere. Oppressed is a hard term.

Evidence of Oppression? Check the sidebar and FAQ's.

Does it matter what the cause of the oppression is?

For those of you who dislike feminists, why? What do you think is wrong with feminism? Do you think feminism is necessary or not?If not, why? Do you have any questions about feminism or something you dont understand about it?

I dislike Feminism because it has fought against equality. Again, check the sidebar.

In an ideal world in your eyes as an MRA, what are the conditions for men and women? What has changed?

Please clarify the question.

What are the biggest male issues, and what can be done to solve them?

The biggest issue for me is the routine mutilation of male genitals. I don't understand how such a practice is allowed to continue, which puts little boys through such torture and changes them for life. Such changes would never be inflicted upon a girl in western society.

The other primary issues would be involving court bias regarding child custody, and men's right to reproductive freedom. Sex does not equal consent to a child, for either gender.

A secondary issue would be bias in terms of crime. Males are punished far harsher than their female counterparts, and are made to serve longer terms when it comes to sentencing. Both sexes are capable of knowing what is right and wrong, and should both be equally accountable.

Yurilovescats · 2013-07-30T20:02:23+00:00

I generally quite like a lot of feminists... I'm extremely grateful for the suffragette movement and for the fact that my sister and female friends had free access to education, I'm pro choice as I have a strong conviction that everyone is sovereign over their own body etc etc...

In many ways I should be a feminist - but I subscribe here simply because my perspective actually gets listened to. I really dislike that feminists seem to enjoy a monopoly over gender theory and public discourse. I don't believe in the patriarchy or male privilege and for that my opinion is shunned, insulted and generally excluded from public discussions of gender - regardless of my reasoning or positive intentions. I spend a lot of time thinking about gender and identity - but as a man, my perspective is always going to be male. I do, however, try to listen and empathise with the female perspective and all too often not only do I not get given the same in return, but I get abused for even asking for it. That's the biggest problem I have with feminism today - there are far too many people who want to dictate rather than listen. Obviously I'm not talking about you - you're clearly here to ask and listen, and I appreciate that - but in my opinion the movement as a whole has a long way to go before male perspectives are respected.

And that isn't just me complaining, but I also think feminist theory is drastically worse than it should be because it only includes one perspective... and if you exclude males (half the binary) from theories of gender - what's the point?

For example here in the UK there was a debate this week about banning 'lads mags' e.g. magazines for teenage boys, because they have pictures of women with no tops on. There were many feminists publicly saying that these magazines objectify women, and even linking them to 'rape culture' and domestic violence. My perspective, as a man, is that teenage boys will sexually objectify women who have pretty smiles and nice bodies - it's a biological fact which no one can change no matter how much they dislike it. By so publicly criticising natural male behaviour, all these feminists were achieving were encouraging feelings of self-hate and loathing among the more sensitive teen boys, who are being made to feel dirty and guilty for something they can't control. What good does that achieve? Indeed, not only does it harm the boy, but boys growing up with self-esteem issues and feelings of suppressed rage and sexuality are far more likely to promote domestic violence and rape than letting them explore their urges in a healthy way.

By generally excluding male perspective, not only does feminism enrage and anger me - it's also a poor and somewhat dangerous tool to analyse society with.

2013-07-30T20:13:27+00:00

Who, in your mind, causes men to be oppressed?

One more thing. Why do we always have to blame somebody? Why can't I just show compassion for the victim regardless of the perpetrator? The answer, is because feminists want to create a boogey-man to blame. This boogey-man is the white male. By blaming white men for all evils in the world (this is patriarchy) they can shut white men up and not allow them in any conversation ever. This creates a powerful rhetorical device, since appeals to emotion are good at persuading people who already agree with you. By whipping up such virulent emotion against a group of people you rally behind destroying such powerful "evil." It's basically a big circle-jerk where people team up against anything they determine is too "white-male."

sens1t1vethug · 2013-07-30T20:16:34+00:00

You're getting lots of answers so I will just focus on the bits that resonate for me. I don't dislike all feminists as people (though of course I do dislike some of them). For the most part, MRAs don't make the political, personal!

I want to see an inclusive movement to foster compassion for everyone and greater awareness of gender issues. Feminism has done some good things but imho the harmful things it's done outweigh the good.

Feminists have misunderstood statistics on almost every topic. They misunderstand the causes of the pay gap, they still think men are prone to domestic violence despite 40 years' research showing gender parity, they're usually unaware of the increasing number of studies showing men suffer similar levels of sexual abuse and harassment as women do, although you do at least mention this a little in your OP.

Many feminists have argued for a worldview where only women can be victims and only men perpetrators. And many others have turned a blind eye to this, or failed to confront it. All too often men talking about their problems and insecurities are told their thoughts are irrelevant because "privilege".

The language used by feminists is offensive to me and to many other men, though not all of course. You use the word "patriarchy" which is willfully provocative to men. You might not intend it that way, but those feminists who do spoil it for everyone. And this is just the tip of the iceberg: almost anything bad in feminist theory has a name with male connotations. Male gaze, hypermasculinity, male violence, toxic masculinity, hegemonic masculinity, men can stop rape, don't be that guy, male privilege, male control... Coincidence?

Feminists have stifled debate and criticism like few other movements today. It's a cult on a par with the Catholics during the Inquisition. As I've written a few thoughts down for you, it'd be very cool of you to give me a list of predominantly feminist sites where I can engage in detailed, good faith dialogue with feminists without being censored. I'm yet to find any site where feminists welcome thoughtful criticism from people who are well-intentioned but have a different view.

Mytecacc · 2013-07-30T20:38:08+00:00

What do you think is wrong with feminism?

Covering up and misleading about rape and abuse is one example of feminism being very wrong.

avantvernacular · 2013-07-30T20:50:24+00:00

This depends on how you define oppression. Is the soldier forced to die in a war for the benefit of other oppressed? Is the coal miner putting his life on the line for a minimum wage oppressed? Is the man imprisoned for not making child support payments that exceed his income oppressed? Some have told me these men are themselves oppressors. Oppression seems to me to boil down to one thing: individuals with a lot of power exploiting individuals with little or no power.
a.) (I broke #2 up, since it's multiple questions.) The dislike of feminists comes from the fact that have actively resisted and hindered efforts to address very serious issue men face, such as a 4 to 1 suicide rate and increasing worse academic performance. We see these as serious issues, but should any MRA's gather to address them, they are met with this. And this. And also [this.]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWgslugtDow) Truth be told, if they would stop actively hindering equality I would not care about feminists at all.
b.) The primary thing wrong with feminism is a cognitive dissonance cause by a lack of self critical awareness. Feminism claims to seek equality of rights, but has no interest in equality of responsibilities. Thus, it has become selective with "equalities," effectively cherry picking only those rights which are deemed beneficial to women, and dismissing others.
c.) Yes, feminism is still necessary in many places in the world. However, it does not seem necessary in most of the Western world. We have no laws which explicitly or implicitly discriminate against women, how every we have many that explicitly discriminate against men, and many more which do so effectively in practice. Additionally, we have far more legal protections and assistance programs for women than men.
d.) I can't really ask feminists questions anymore. I was banned from /r/AskFeminists for suggesting we should not make fun of a person with Asperger Syndrome for struggling to empathizes with others.
As an MRA, an ideal scenario would be a world where laws do not discriminate based on gender either in explicit writing or in practice. If people want to say bigoted things to each other, that's unfortunate so be it - courts and lawyers shouldn't get in on the game. And Ideal world is one where every government official from the small town cop to the president and everything between is blind to gender.
Suicide rates, Selective Service, Workplace death, educationally falling behind, legal discrimination, lack of recognition or support for male victims of violence and abuse. The solutions cannot be typed here while staying within the character limit. If you're curious about a specific issue, ask.

If there's anything else you want to know, ask here or PM. I will try to answer promptly.

callthebankshot · 2013-07-30T21:03:34+00:00

You state you don't hate men, but at the same time believe that "Everyone should read this".

As a feminist, you should have some understanding of the terms, institutional or systemic sexism.

"Men, are you worried for your own safety because misandry? You need to accept that misandry happens in the real world and take some precautions.

Ever heard the phase, "don't stick your dick in crazy?" This is a warning to steer clear of questionable women because they might abuse the preferential treatment afforded to them by the legal system.

Don’t wear anything too douchey. If you’re wearing a fedora or a sexist t-shirt, etc. you’re pretty much asking to get attacked. Misandrists can’t control themselves when they see a man in a fedora, their instincts kick in and before they know it they have a dead male corpse in their hands. Just be a good boy and don’t tempt them, okay?

Calling feminists hairy man-hating lesbians somehow is different than calling MRAs neckbeard fedora wearing virgins? Both of these seem to be slurs about not conforming to gender roles to me.

Perpetual_dissident · 2013-07-30T21:51:48+00:00

First off patriarchy does not exist, at least the way feminist say it exists. Secondly, Feminism might have been necessary at some point in history, but today it is completely unnecessary.

To me, feminism is narcissism institutionalized. It means "I'm not interested in understanding anyone else's but my problems".

And don't be fooled, I'm a left wing man.

Leinadro · 2013-07-30T19:52:17+00:00

Question 1. Yes.

The evidence would such things:

As despite claims that health and medicine are all about men, men still have a shorter average life span.

When looking at education boys are lagging behind girls on nearly every level and unlike in the past when it was noticed that girls were lagging there were massive efforts to help girls, we now have willful ignorance.

In 2013 it is still somehow arguable that a man can be raped by a woman or abused by a woman.

I would say that the its the same oppressive system harming men and women. However I'm of the mind that this oppressive system doesn't favor "men" or "the masculine". No the system favors itself and is ready to manipulate and mow down anyone regardless of gender to maintain its own power. This I think differs from the frequent claim that there is a system at work that favors a very small subset of men and harms the vast majority of men and harms pretty much all woman but said system is still named after men.

But as someone said below oppression is a pretty loaded word right now. Despite this system in effect that hurts the vast majority of men many feminists will still actively deny the idea of male oppression because to them when men are harmed its not because of their gender.

Question 2. It's not that I dislike feminists. I do dislike some of what they believe/say/etc...

As for what is wrong I think there are large parts of it that are based on incorrect assumptions.

Yes I would say that it does have a place in the world if for no other reason the great things its done for women. So please believe me when I say I don't want feminism to be wiped out. No I'd rather see it adjusted so that it actually fits the claim that its for everyone.

Question 3. I would say that men and women would be held to the same standards, responsibilities, and have the same rights. I'm not sure what you mean by "what has changed?". Could you clarify some more please?

Question 4. Since they would have a heavy impact on future men (aka today's boys) I would say education and suicide prevention. Education is something that you need to make it in this ever changing world and boys should be prepared for it when they go out into it. As for suicide prevention well I think that is obvious.

Thanks for dropping by.

MuFoxxa · 2013-07-30T20:13:03+00:00

This depends on the definition of oppressed. I hate to use that term is it is so all ecompassing and gives the impression of being oppressed in all ways.

So do I believe Men (in the western world) are "oppressed" ... No. But men are treated unfairly in a lot of circumstances and are subject to a lot of double standards that women are not.

Do I believe that women (in the western world) are "oppressed" ... No. But women are treated unfairly in some circumstances and are subject to a lot of double standards that men are not.

The difference is that there are people who A: Acknowledge women have some problems, B: Who fight to change them or provide assistance.

When it comes to men Most attempts at discussing the problems are men with scorn, ridicule, or just being dismissed and ignored. (Double standard). Or betteras we often hear "yeah but it's worse for us", or "we'll get to you when we're done helping women" or the best the absolutely most unhelpful "you just need more feminism!!!". We are told we don't need a movement for men, that feminism is there to help both, BUT I dare you to try and start discussing mens issues within feminist circles, see how quickly you get shutdown.

As for the who in this, well both men and women are at fault. Men in power who cater to one side and ignore the other, Men in everyday life who "just take it". Women who know very well that in some ways they are being unfair but don't speak up, and Men and women who refuse to acknowledge that everyone should be treated fairly regardless of gender, race, class, eye colour, shoe size etc.
Do I dislike feminists. Well this is a yes and no. First of I want to be clear, I do not equate feminist to "woman". But asking if I dislike feminists is like asking if I dislike catholics. Well sure, I dislike some of them, but certainly not all, heck not even most. I dislike the close minded, irrational portions who tend to be the most vocal, most influential and also the "ever-victim".

I agree with the basic feminist concept of "every deserves to be treated equally". But that's mostly as far as it goes. I do not believe in rape culture. In fact I feel that the ever broadening definition of what is and is not considered rape is a bad thing and infact plays on peoples emotions for sympathy. And by that I mean and when you tell someone You were raped by your boyfriend , immediately in their mind they jump to visions of a violent, cruel and cold encounter, where someone forced themselves on you, ignoring your request/plea/cries to stop. They do not assume you meant rape by coercian where he asked for sex, you said not, he nagged for a minute and finally you said yes. Or where you made a stupid decision while typsy (I'm not talking falling down passing out drunk) one night, wake up and think... I would never sleep with that uggo under normal circumstances! He raped me! When all you did was make a stupid mistake you regret.

Hell if all it takes is a drink or 2 in you for it to be considered rape them I guess my wife was a serial rapist when we first got together when I still drank on occassion.

I believe in equal oppurtunities, equal treatment, but not enforced equal outcomes because that kind of invalidates equal oppurtunities (which includes the oppurtunity to fail).
Well, I consider myself egalitarian, which from my experience talking to most MRA's they actually fall under even if they don't identify that way.

But I'm not sure what you mean by your question. What are the conditions in an ideal world? hmmm Simple (well, maybe not) (Note this applies to all issues of Race, and sexual orientation, everyone should be treated with the same respect and options)

A) No gender based laws. If something is against the rules for 1 group, it's against the rules for ALL groups. (Equal Treatment)

B) No gender based bonus's. IE, stop all of the scollarships just for women, womens business loans that men cannot apply for. (equal oppurtunities)

C) No gender based watch dogs who look out for the status of just 1 group. We should all be taking care of each other, and not just "those like us". (Equal Treatment)

D) No gender based quotas, be it in hiring, or university recruiting. (Equal Treatment) (equal oppurtunities)

E) No gender based preference in the justice system when it comes to criminal sentencing or if charges are filed at all. (Equal Treatment)

F) No gender based arrest policies (I'm looking at you vawa/duluth model and all those like you). (Equal Treatment)

G) No gender based preferences in family court. Default to a 50/50 shared custody and unless the parties petition otherwise or unless it can be shown how 1 side should not/cannot do their share. (Equal Treatment)

H) Proper legal standard applies in ALL cases and investigations and that includes rape investigations. If the "victim" is kept anonymous, the same should be done for the accused until a conviction is attained. Like it or not people do assume guilt in these cases, even with an aquital and charges are dropped.(Equal Treatment)

I) Work to get rid of both enforced gender roles. Allow freedom of choice, even if the choice is a historically gendered role. (Equal Treatment) (equal oppurtunities)

I could go on but I'm sure you get the hint.
There are many, but a few.

Crushing child support, Lack of enforced visitation, Suicide rates, Crazy failling educational success, Lack of people willing to acknowledge men can be raped Lack of people willing to acknowledge that men are subject to domestic violence

Lack of support for men in DV. Despite studies (includes stats canada) showing rates of IPV are almost equal, there are 594 sheltes in canada for women and 0 for men. Even if you don't believe the numbers are equal you have to admit that they are not 100% to 0.

KRosen333 · 2013-07-30T20:21:48+00:00

Edit: Thank you for answering respectfully. I'm not going to debate or reply to all the comments, but they've been read.

This is disappointing - You could have gleamed all of this information from the countless numbers that have come before you to ask these questions.

Regardless, if your decision is to listen, rather than talk, you will not find many here who will argue with that; just know it is impossible for us to know if you understand the context of what we say without feedback.

Pecanpig · 2013-07-31T02:34:19+00:00

Do you truly believe that men are oppressed anywhere? What is the evidence for this oppression? Who, in your mind, causes men to be oppressed?

Yes I do. I see men having unequal access to things such as education, healthcare, financial aid, employment ect ect as being evidence of this. I blame mostly biology and academic feminism.

For those of you who dislike feminists, why? What do you think is wrong with feminism? Do you think feminism is necessary or not?If not, why? Do you have any questions about feminism or something you dont understand about it?

I dislike feminism because in my observation it is an extremely violent and oppressive supremacy movement. I understand feminism quite well and probably a lot better than most feminists.

In an ideal world in your eyes as an MRA, what are the conditions for men and women? What has changed?

Men and women would have equal opportunities in life, this would mean getting rid of things like affirmative action and at least stiffling the "be nicer to women" mentality that our entire society has.

What are the biggest male issues, and what can be done to solve them?

Lack of access to education and employment, getting rid of crap like tittle IX, firing buttloads of teachers who are obvious sexists and allowing employers to hire who they want based on relevant skills, i.e making it illegal to hire or fire someone for their gender/race/religion and being better about not letting companies bullshit their way out of this.

2013-07-31T13:57:28+00:00

Men are oppressed in western societies in myriad ways. Men are forced to subsidize women's healthcare and women's social privileges. Men are not allowed to defend themselves physically against women and have fewer legal protections. Men cannot legally be raped by women. Men are discriminated against in sentencing and in education.
Feminists/Traditionalists are the cause of all the oppression that men face. They are the same in that they privilege women over men and believe that men have a duty to protect and provide for women. We believe that men and women are equal and therefore women should pay for their own fucking healthcare, not have any special laws to protect them from violence, and get sentenced just as harshly as men when they rape little kids. Feminists attack anyone who disagrees with them with labels like "rapist" and "misogynist." They fight dirty and lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want. They play the victim when it suits them and shame people publicly to silence them. They claim to fight for "equality" but have never done a single thing to help men. They lie about gaps between the genders and deny that men deserve equal federal funding.
100% equal. Men don't pay for women and women don't pay for men. If women's healthcare costs more, then THEY pay for it. If a woman hits a man or rapes a child she is thrown in prison and treated just as harshly as a man would be treated. Women have zero institutional privilege, so no gender quotas, no special protections, no women-only scholarships or grants, nothing. THAT would be equality. Currently women are riding the money train on men's dollar.
Male Genital Mutilation. By silencing every single feminist who says that MGM isn't as bad as FGM. We must kill feminism in order to protect men and boys.

You are the enemy whether you realize it or not. You support the feminists who hate men.

Mlezi · 2013-07-30T20:08:14+00:00

Do you think feminism is necessary or not? If not, why?

Not at all. It harms women more than men. It politicizes people's suffering (rape victims) for their own personal gain. It prevents women from entering the STEM fields (by spreading lies about how much those spaces suck for women, and spreading lies about how little women will get paid for their hard work). Feminism is created for the benefit of privileged white women (the most privileged people in 1st world countries) and the expensive of men (minority men especially). It constantly forces gender to be an issue when it's not, which creates a bigger wedge between the genders and makes it more difficult to end sexism.

I have spoken to feminists both online and in life, so I understand the movement fairly well. It is basically a cult, like Scientology.

rightsbot · 2013-07-30T19:12:17+00:00

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HalfysReddit · 2013-07-31T00:10:00+00:00

Of course. IMO, it boils down to men in modern society receiving little to no sympathy, be it joblessness, mental health, rape, whatever. We push the idea of "manning up" to men but go to great lengths to support women in need, when we should be taking care of both genders.
I dislike radical feminists and some of the things that modern feminism has caused. Feminism in itself is not the problem, it's the people with selfish agendas that are hijacking the name of the movement that are the problem.
Society allowing everyone to do as they please free of shame and society taking care of all its members at a basic level.
Mental health, suicide, circumcision, and a biased court system are the main things I believe are effecting men today.

ghebert001 · 2013-07-31T01:24:26+00:00

Do I truly believe that men are oppressed anywhere. The definition of oppression according to Miriam Webster is "unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power"...do I believe there is unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power which results in oppression of men? Absolutely. What is the evidence? Well, in the observable world men are subjected to financial slavery for 18 years should they happen to impregnate a woman who wants to keep the child and he doesn't. Without any reproductive rights, he is essentially enslaved by the government to financially support someone against his will. Same goes for alimony. Let's look at all the most dangerous jobs in the world...all dominated by men. Some men choose these professions willingly...some have no choice due to lack of education, they have no other skillset. In my opinion, feminism, using the government as a proxy, oppresses men in the ways I mentioned above. I believe (although some may see this as nothing more than pure conspiracy theory, and maybe it is) that feminism was concocted by the C.I.A. to destabilize society, as indicated here. The fact that most feminists I've ever encountered view marriage as some patriarchal construct to force women to be slaves at home and that being a housewife is frowned upon by feminists seems to indicate that feminists are by and large anti-marriage and anti-family.

Why do I dislike feminists. I think the following video explains most of it.

In an ideal world, men and women would have not only equal rights, but equal responsibilities. Right now feminism seems content to just attain the advantages men have but to not have any of the burdens and disadvantages that go along with them. Funny how an "equality" movement seems fine to leave men with all these disadvantages.

I find the biggest male issues are reproductive rights, the bias in education, suicide rates and divorce/family courts bias against men. Honestly I don't know what can be done about all these issues...how do you get a society that ignores the pain and vulnerability of men to suddenly give a damn?

DavidByron · 2013-07-31T22:59:44+00:00

I do not hate men

You deny hating men. That doesn't mean you don't hate men. You're part of a hate movement. What makes you think you don't hate men?

Do you truly believe that men are oppressed anywhere?

Anyone daft enough to ask this sure looks like they hate men to me.

pvtshoebox · 2013-07-31T23:56:51+00:00

The draft.

Until the draft is repealed or women are included, there will always be a button for someone to push that says "enslave or kill X% of males between 18 and 30." The person who presses that button is elected by a majority of people that know they will never be impacted by that button.

We know that men tend be over-represented in U.S. politics. They also over-represent those that are tasked with risking their life to execute the directives put forth by those representatives.

I am not defending a disparity of gender representation in Congress, but I have a hard time sympathizing with women about who the populace trusts with power when it is clear who society trusts with the responsibility to die for their country.

As long as men are more vulnerable to enslavement/death due to foreign policy blunders, they (as a population) will be more interested in foreign policy, and hence, more interested in politics.

We are not legally equal. Men are legally bound to protect women with their lives, if the elected official decide to call on them. It is pretty hard to "dismantle patriarchy" without recognizing this fact.

Mytecacc · 2013-07-30T20:36:49+00:00

Read this http://www.amazon.com/Legalizing-Misandry-Systemic-Discrimination-Against/dp/0773528628

Iaintstayinglong · 2013-07-31T02:05:24+00:00

My two cents:

1- To me, oppression is like a minefield. You can walk around and suddenly you trigger a mine - an instance of oppression. Oppression is not constant like swimming in lava would be, if you get what I mean. Some will be lucky and never walk on a mine, some will attract mines... whereas when swimming in a lava pit, you get burned the same whatever you do.

All in all, I think it's mainly a governmental problem. Let me be clear: I have never had problems when interacting with girls and women in real-life. Some have been evil bitches (and sorry but this is the only way I can describe those girls, but I'm not here to get into detail) and some have been wonderful. I have never had a woman on the street tell me I was an evil man or whatever. However, I am scared that one day, maybe, my wife comes at me with a knife and, eyes closed and in panic, I take a swing and knock her out cold. She sues, I'm appearing before a judge, and even though she was the culprit and she had an intent to kill me, I'm in jail because "I'm the man and I'm evil". Then again, this has never happened to me. In so far I just think I'm slightly dramatizing.

2- I don't particularly dislike feminists. Really there's two types of feminists for me, those who actually want equal rights for every sex (which I guess can encompass those who consider themselves a third gender) and those who want only women to gain/lose rights. When a girl tells me she's a feminist, I imagine she's the first type. Because if yes, then everything is dandy. If not, I'll find out sooner or later (I'll find out if she's type 1 sooner or later too) anyway.

I suppose it is necessary, just like any social movement that has brought change in the long term was necessary (I am talking of course about the Lumières, or the Renaissance's Humanists, etc.) but I'd like to see feminism become Egalitarianism. Except we just know someone would take even that to the extreme :(

3- I will be truly honest: I think some gender roles are necessary. I don't really care what they are, I just think we need some bases. It's just about certainty. Call me lazy, but I think we need this "Well, by the looks of it, our new neighbours are a typical family" and not the "So I just learned our new neighbours are pansexual polyamorous bigamists... do you think it's okay to invite the two over for dinner?". At some point every couple is a unique thing and I'm sorry but it's impossible to make heads or tails of all this without offending someone. Thus, in my ideal world, there are traditional gender roles (that are more guidelines than anything else) and both sexes are equal to the maximum of their abilities (for example, rape would not need for penetration to be performed anymore). Even more ideally, I'd like for everyone to be able to tell the difference between sexism/racism/etc. and just being a dick. It's happened that I called a black friend of mine an idiot jokingly only to have someone tell me that it's insensitive for some reason.

4- To me: injustice on a legal level. So far I don't really care about social injustice because my belief is that if we change the law, then the views will change slowly.

Grim765 · 2013-07-31T04:31:10+00:00

1
Yes, I do believe men are oppressed. Everybody in the western world knows the phrase "Women and children first". I, like literally everyone else here, agree with the "and children" part. However, the fact that this phrase is so prevalent in society means that men are perceived as disposable; that their life is worth less than a woman's. I'm going to direct you here. GirlWritesWhat gives a much more detailed explanation. I also recommend you watch the rest of her videos, as every single one is great.

2
I do not dislike the so-called "coffee shop feminists". I do, however, dislike the radical feminists. They spew some extremely misandristic (I love how that isn't a word but misogynistic is) statements. You can see them here or here or here. Also, the hypocrisy of many feminists, as explained here. You may say that the radicals do not represent what a group is about, you would be wrong.

of or going to the root or origin; fundamental: a radical difference.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/radical
Radicals are not fringe groups, they are the exact opposite. They represent the root values, the fundamentals.

3
In an ideal world, there are equal rights. There is no misandry (still not considered a fucking word, is underlined red in this textbox).

4
There are too many for me to list. Go here, which is in the sidebar.

aaaaarrrrgggghhhh · 2013-07-31T15:16:13+00:00

Men are not oppressed in my oppinion but neither are women. For the most part they are equal. The parts that men and women are not equal in is caused by society and not this "patriarchy" that we supposedly live in. It is caused by stereotypes that men are horndogs and can't keep their dicks to themselves and women are perfect creatures that can do no wrong. Also stereotypes of women being caregivers and uncontrollable crazy bitches. It is not men who oppress women nor women who oppress men it's people who oppress ourselves. (BTW I would like a feminist's view on patriarchy if that's alright)
I dislike feminism because it started out as a good movement but, in my oppinion, turned into women blaming men for thier problems and "demonizing" them as I like to say. As I stated in my previous answer there are problems facing women, but men are not the cause of it. Feminists and mens rights activists are not enemies. They each focus on a different group's problems but blame the opposite party for them (Seriously those on /r/mensrights, we do blame them). This is the reason why I don't like feminism, but also why I don't like mens rights. I instead and egaltarian and frequent both subreddits. In saying this I don't think feminism is necessary, but we should all come together and strive for equal rights. Once again my only question about feminism is what you guys think about patriarcy and mens' privilage because to me it does not exist, it is just normal people with stereotypes for both men and women. Also I don't like the name "Feminism" because it is no gender neutral and if you want to fight for equal rights specifically for women then, yeah, use the name but if want to fight for equal rights for all it doesn't seem like an all encompassing term for people.
Everyone is equal but not only in the eyes of the law, but in the eyes of everyone. And this is not and MRA's oppinion it is and Egaltarian (A person who wants equal rights for all and does not forcus on either men or women in this mission).
I'm tired of all this typing if a person wants me to contiue just tell me and I will or just browse around /r/mensrights for a bit.

VideoLinkBot · 2013-07-31T17:39:30+00:00

Here is a list of video links collected from comments that redditors have made in response to this submission:

Source Comment	Score	Video Link
Inbefore121	5	Catherine Kieu Castrates Husband
Inbefore121	5	Woman Gets Pregnant By 13 Year Old Boy!
avantvernacular	4	feminist protesters at u of t pull fire alarm
avantvernacular	4	Protest at the University of Toronto
avantvernacular	4	Warren Farrell protest at the University of Toronto - Full version
Grim765	1	Look out! It's a Nice Guy! DESTROY HIM!!11!
Grim765	1	NAFALT!!!!1!!1!
Grim765	1	FEMINISM vs. FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Grim765	1	Feminism and the Disposable Male
ghebert001	1	Not all feminists are like that

Title	Questions from a feminist
Author	Mlezi
Upvotes	2
Comments	83
Date	July 30, 2013 7:10 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1jd8vp/questions_from_a_feminist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/questions-from-a-feminist.1167562 https://theredarchive.com/post/1167562

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