What reactions have you gotten to discussions of men's rights in the real world?

jolly_mcfats · 2013-05-30T04:31:28+00:00

They usually go very smoothly. The only funny spot I've had was when one friend was said "You make good points, but... you kind of sound like a MRA". There was a moment of stunned silence when I told them that I considered myself to be an MRA, but it was a friend with enough respect for me to let that change her view of MRAs rather than the other way around.

The trick I've found is to bring it up when it makes sense, stick with the ideas and not the labels, and only get around to the labels when they are relevant. It's also important to reserve talking about it for when it is appropriate- forcing your views down anyone's throat won't convince them, and will make you look like you have no social skills.

theultimatepedobear · 2013-05-30T03:10:32+00:00

What is Title IX?

oneiorosgrip · 2013-05-30T03:30:22+00:00

My Worst reaction:

This.

oniongasm · 2013-05-30T11:22:24+00:00

WARNING: This turned into a very long post.

TLDR: Reactions regarding male agency and representation, BONUS STORY TIME, back into gender discussion roundup.

I've really only reached a place of forming coherent arguments on one point: speech/representation/agency. The very idea that men should have means of entering the realm of gender discussion in a more cohesive, organized manner. That in gender discussion, men are largely ignored because of a privilege bias. That we do not, as a general rule, speak about these issues together. That men don't discuss the issues that plague them. Not as men. Not on behalf of men. And that should change. Because we are half of the population, and organized representation is critical in modern society.

Anyway, only a handful of chances to discuss it so far:

23 y/o (F) Women's Studies Major: When asked about men's advocacy groups "It's bullshit. Men don't need those groups, you have it well already." After a couple more pints and more (mostly me) talking, we ended with her, silent, with nothing to say in response beyond needing some time to process it all. But no disagreement. She's gone on to make a few of those inflammatory facebook posts we all know and love, but has nevertheless shown herself to be open to debate, if not change.

24 y/o (F) Biologist: Wonderful. After a day writing and deleting arguments (not ready to pick a fight with the internet) I ranted to her about my above points, the one topic I'm really confident in regarding gender issues. It basically ended with "Huh, I'd never seen it that way." She's become my sounding board. Obviously we approach gender issues from different angles, so she basically provides "Your argument [is/is not] reasonable."

50 y/o (F) Engineer: Not very political, I got a "That... all basically makes sense."

In talks about feminism and violence against women, I've had some interesting stalled conversations. Conversations where my partner is basically saying "violence against women is bad, now agree with [different things X, Y, Z]"... at which point I brought up several anecdotes from my life.

I'm a big man. I'm 6'4", 235 pounds and athletic. I have never raised my hands in anger against another person (except my little brother when he was being an asshole. This stopped when we got to the "we're man-sized now" age). I don't get angry very easily, I tend not to express it when I do, and I am acutely aware of the fact that I could become a threatening figure very quickly. I strive to avoid that. With that premise, on to my anecdotes:

1

I'm living with my girlfriend of five years. We get in an argument and she starts slapping me and pushing me. This goes on for several minutes. I move so that I'm aiming towards the bed, take two hands and firmly push her onto the bed. I look her in the eye and walk out of the room. There was no followup to this event. The look in her eyes showed me it'd finally clicked how much bigger and stronger I was than her. The whole time I was calm and simply wanted it to end without actually hurting her.

2

We've all been fairly emotional lately (~1yr ago). My brother, his girlfriend, and I decide to get plastered. After we kill a bottle of vodka and move onto pints and shots at the bar, we finally close out the bar. In the five blocks back to my brother's apartment, they get into a fight. He finally says fuck it and walks home alone. This leaves an angry drunk girl with me.

She proceeds to slap, punch, spit on, and verbally abuse me for 25 minutes. I know this because someone stayed on the line with 911 for this whole thing. I keep trying to calm her down, and we gradually move our way another block up the street. Finally I get sick of it, flash back to my first anecdote, push her once square in the chest, and kick her in the leg. A "now stay down!" sort of kick. I walk 15yd down the sidewalk and sit down.

Soon thereafter the cops show, talk to a couple standing just up the street (who only saw the very end), talk to her (establishing that it wasn't DV and that she started it), and take me in despite both of us saying I didn't start anything and took the minority action.

Now I'll save you the timing of the rest and note the following:

I ended the night with broken glasses, no remaining buttons on my shirt, bruises from my collarbone to my forehead, and a burst blood vessel in my eye, making the whites of my eye completely red for over a month.
I live several hundred miles away and can't afford to continuously return for court dates (even with free representation I'd be facing hundreds of dollars in travel costs that I simply can't afford, not to mention missing work and school)
This girl went before the judge in pre-trial hearings and basically told the above story
The judge only looks at the police report (the couple who only saw the end), not the 911 tapes in the pre-trial hearings
The prosecutor asked for 24hrs community service and that I not be arrested in any incident involving alcohol or any criminal incident for one year. In exchange, this never goes to trial and it drops off my record.

When the prosecutor came forward with that deal... I don't know how to say it besides this. I have never heard such raw, visceral disdain for another human come out of a person's mouth as I heard from the judge that day. A clean cut, well spoken masters student with a clean record. A man with bruises on his face and neck and a bloodshot eye where the vessels had burst... it was clear that she presumed I was the scum of this earth. Because I had DARED to lay my hands on a woman. She made her comments that she wanted 2-3 times the service hours and AA or random testing thrown into the mix, but ultimately accepted the deal as it was.

That's what I have to depend on when I'm assaulted. When, even after nearly half an hour of endurance in an attempt to defuse someone, I am arrested by default for I am a man. When I am treated with contempt and scorn by the very person deciding my fate... because I am the presumed aggressor, even after my "victim" says that nothing could be further from the truth. Because I am a man and she is not. Because I am large and she is not. Because I am strong and she is not. Because if I am all of those things, I must be aggressive, I must be violent.

[AHEM]

I don't have an argument to make out of all that. I don't have the thoughts in my head to formulate a plan that holds water to my standards. But I know that shouldn't happen. And I know that while using violence is suboptimal, I have been twice assaulted and both times I kept my head enough to recognize the size difference, tried my best not to hurt anyone in any serious way, ended the assault, and simply disengaged. And so I don't regret anything (except getting that drunk)

Going far, far, FAR back to my original point... that all tends to stop arguments that hinge on emotional blackmail. I'm not saying that arguments regarding violence towards women are flawed, just that some people DO use issues like that to try and convert you wholesale to their way of thinking. When it's clear they don't fully understand it, merely parrot what they've recently read. Those people? Those people usually stop talking after that.

Must-Know-Everything · 2013-05-30T02:56:47+00:00

I don't discuss men's rights outside of reddit except with people I think are capable of having a discussion.

The MRA too frequently feeds the same trolls on SRS etc who are focused on complaining rather than rights. There's a lot of people who don't understand you can be critical about both gender's issues. People think of the two as inherently against each other, when they're both really about exposing problems faced by each gender.

Most people who I think will listen enjoy discussing it, though. I do it in smaller groups.

Ithroch · 2013-05-30T07:22:02+00:00

“Women have it so much worse than men. Men have no problems so when they say they have problems we should ignore them.”

And the usual when I show them proof that they have next no problems in an area is's suddenly unimportant. And the endless excuses for women it’s like they are some sort of overgrown children.

FlemSmack · 2013-05-30T17:58:50+00:00

My Mom will get very upset and start yelling at me that women have it hard in family courts and that I don't know what I am talking about because I never had to be involved in them.

2013-05-30T03:18:46+00:00

I dared to comment about it on some facebook page on 'Freethought', replies were predictable - man up, grow a pair. I was permabanhammered just after one comment and the cited reason was that 'We have a policy of banning people against Feminism'.

2013-05-30T06:31:35+00:00

[permanently deleted]

SockBramson · 2013-05-30T13:35:22+00:00

The good:

A younger guy I work asked me to help him with an informative essay for school about basic Men's Rights concepts.

The Bad:

I referenced the 94% on the job fatality statistic and she laughed and said, "That's cuz men are dumb and careless." Those were her exact words. Oh and she's a 35-year old drug addict with 3 kids (whose names are all misspelled because that makes them unique.) She sponges off her parents and is working part-time as a cashier and she can just barely do enough to not get fired. (Example: When I try to correct how she does something her default response is to loudly say "I DON'T GIVE A FUCK!")

So to sum up this anecdote: Men's Rights sounds interesting to a bright young mind and stupid to...... that..... other thing.

eats_puppies · 2013-05-30T03:15:37+00:00

If I talk about I will not mention any labels, as that makes me too easy to attack. I also make sure I have a case and that the sexism I'm pointing out actually matters and isn't just obnoxious "Feminist Frequency" style whining about meaningless stereotypes I see on TV.

2013-05-30T12:36:03+00:00

I am a woman so I generally get a wary but respectful reaction from women and a grateful and impressed reaction from men. I love how men will open up and really talk about their experiences once they realize I am supportive.

ZorbaTHut · 2013-05-30T07:47:21+00:00

It sort of accidentally came up at a dinner with some friends of my wife's. One of the friends had a new girlfriend. The girlfriend took very strong offense to the very idea of a men's rights advocate - I didn't even get a chance to explain what positions I thought were important before it turned into a stream of profanity from her.

It seems like the girlfriend forbade the friend from talking to either me or my wife again, since he's said essentially nothing to us since, even missing our wedding that he was invited to.

newmobsforall · 2013-05-30T09:34:18+00:00

Mostly positive, but I'm very careful to pick my battles in the real world.

LapinAngelique · 2013-05-30T11:02:48+00:00

Talked about it with a couple of friends I met at university. One insisted on remaining neutral (fair enough, really) and one of them expressed interest in the movement.

2013-05-30T08:38:03+00:00

I have discussions with people, but never frame it under an MRA banner - that's what feminism has done. Made it so that if you even mention MRA, most regular people will think you're a conspiracy theorist whacko.

brontide · 2013-05-30T17:23:12+00:00

I don't talk about it anymore IRL, too depressing. I find my life is better is I just clam up on either side of the argument. Same goes for religion, nobody wants to debate, they don't want their minds changed and even pointing out the worst failures will likely lead to venomous backlash.

I've got better things to do with my time.

2013-06-04T15:47:09+00:00

Hell, I recently seriously pondered getting a special throwaway and using TOR exlusively when dicussing the issue on reddit. That answer your question?

literallyschmiteraly · 2013-05-30T05:58:38+00:00

I'm very strategic. I only talk to men who I already know will at least not get upset, even if they think I'm kind of wierd to care (because I'm female). With women friends I bide my time and wait for a moment when feminism is harming them, then I give a little shove and back off. It seems to work pretty well. My worst experience has been a gay male friend of mine who picked up the direction I was going and is now ignoring me completely.

EJSpurrell · 2013-05-30T05:25:49+00:00

To be honest? Mostly positive. With three exceptions, all of whom were unreasonable in their reactions. But then I live in an area that's known for being laid back.

Nipplestoker · 2013-05-30T10:37:10+00:00

I've been called things ranging from "rapist" to "woman hater" to "pussy". I've rarely received a positive comment on it. That's Liberal universities for ya.

2013-05-30T11:39:49+00:00

Largely positive. Just don't be a dick and stay on point: It's about equality. Most people at this point know a dad who's gone through a custody battle and the baffling, Kafkaesque series of heartbreaks that is.

I have one female coworker whom I like and respect a lot, though, who makes those ridiculous asides about how much worse women have it. I know she thinks its just kind of funny observational humor, and I know that she treats her husband with kindness and respect (I don't have any interest in associating with people who don't treat their spouses well; I think it is a sign of real personality issues if you either can't be supportive and loving to the person you're closest to, or, if they truly are undeserving, can't get up and leave), but... it's really not very nice.

I was thinking about this the other day. Feminists really did us all a service, teaching men to see the unspoken differences in the way genders are treated, and in how men treat women. All in all, I think men have responded very well to that. We see it, thanks to their efforts. But when we use those very same observational skills to try to communicate gender-related problems we have as well, we're blown off by the very people who taught us how to think critically about gender in the first place!

CrossHook · 2013-05-30T14:18:31+00:00

It's hit or miss.

Usually the more intelligent and self confident people will understand and agree with the men's rights issues and the less intelligent and more self-conscious people will have internalized traditionalist notions of male disposability and feminist notions of female entitlement to such a degree that they respond with incredulity and anger.

If you can think for yourself, then you probably already recognize the double-standards that favor women. And if you can't think for yourself then you probably never will.

warsie · 2013-05-30T05:39:01+00:00

Largely positive. A Tumblr feminist (met her at an anime themed 'fashion show' at a bar...srsly) agreed with me re. the false rape claims and double standards re. violence on males/females.

I just came out of a 2 day flamewar in this "Black nerd" group on facebook against the feminists. It turned into just trolling on both sides, but I stand by my comments!

Yeah, i'd say most people agree with me :)

rightsbot · 2013-05-30T02:46:17+00:00

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sre01 · 2013-05-30T15:21:45+00:00

I find my conversations in real life are usually meet with far more acceptance in real life.

kencabbit · 2013-05-30T17:17:16+00:00

Relatively lacking in fireworks. Agreement when they can, but with awkward looks accompanying the conversation. I've never had a hugely negative reaction, but I barely ever bring it up.

Edit: Basically, as another comment puts it

I don't discuss men's rights outside of reddit except with people I think are capable of having a discussion.

Bohica69 · 2013-05-30T18:28:44+00:00

If you like your career and your life I'd recommend NOT discussing MR in a forum, environment or social/career setting where you can be tarred and feathered with your own brush. It's not going to solve anything anyway.

2013-05-30T19:18:04+00:00

Only disappointing ones. One person I talked to chalked all my points (stats included) up to "someone's opinion on the internet." Someone else stated that they thought stats that pertain to female on male DV were exaggerated. Essentially everyone I have talked just doesn't believe that these issues exist. It's a very small sample size though. For all of feminism's talk of cultural hegemonies it has become hegemonic itself.

rodvanmechelen · 2013-05-31T03:55:57+00:00

Fired from one job for writing a book about feminist issues from the male-positive perspective, fired from another for publishing a MRM 'zine, received so many death threats I stopped paying any attention to them, a girlfriend broke up with me over my MRA views (no great loss), more recently in 2012 I was threatened with loss of membership rights for making a motion to include women in a DV prevention campaign, 7 months ago those same people stood up in front of our members and slandered me with several lies, claiming that I attacked women, bullied women, and even accused me of claiming men never abuse women, which was probably the most absurd lie of all.

radrler · 2013-05-30T05:40:32+00:00

Men are usually excited to find someone with such refreshing news. Women are mostly baffled, though that varies.

OuiCrudites · 2013-05-30T14:12:00+00:00

I am extremely successful with egalitarian-framed arguments, unless there are actual, honest female supremacists in the conversation which has happened. I.E. they say "Women are more important than men, it doesn't matter if men suffer."

The problem is, none of the people I enlighten are willing to do anything about it.

EXTRA TIP: I've won over some women by pointing out how Feminism removes their personal agency, but you have to know her pretty well first, and know how much of a bold thinker she is. I literally had a woman tell me she was turned on during a conversation about this. (I didn't sleep with her because she is a single mom.)

mikesteane · 2013-05-30T06:55:04+00:00

In mixed company, men disagree and are then taken aback when women agree with me. On their own, men see things from a different perspective and I suspect a whole new train of thinking has been set in motion. This happened to me the night before last when I had dinner with an ambassador. His diplomatic answer was "you may have a point", but I think the political correctness his country is awash with was starting to get swept away.

The trick is not to waste time arguing with those who are closed to new thoughts. Discuss men's issues only with those who are open or who have never really considered them before.

Title	What reactions have you gotten to discussions of men's rights in the real world?
Author	HappyGerbil88
Upvotes	34
Comments	62
Date	May 30, 2013 2:44 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1fb9c3/what_reactions_have_you_gotten_to_discussions_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-reactions-have-you-gotten-to-discussions-of.1172562 https://theredarchive.com/post/1172562

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