It's time to let go of "toxic masculinity"

Griffin1102 · 2022-12-20T13:13:24+00:00

"toxic masculinity" is just a victim-blaming way to say "internalized misandry" without having to acknowledge that misandry exists

CompetitiveOwl2 · 2022-12-20T12:37:58+00:00

Thanks for sharing this. I really felt like I was on my own here because when I've voiced concerns I've always been told "tough" or that I must be toxic if I've got a problem with it.

I MUCH prefer "toxic gender norms/expectations". It has way better optics and is genderless so it's inclusive which will hopefully lead to better conversations

SpicyMarshmellow · 2022-12-20T12:57:31+00:00

It's a weaponized term. It has a proper definition, but nobody uses it according to that definition. But when you criticize it for the way they use it, they fall back to a defensive position behind that proper definition and return fire at you for supposedly not knowing it.

But I think what's really telling is that the proper definition of toxic masculinity is basically identical to what is called internalized misogyny when it's women. The people who invent and promote these terminologies obviously know what they're doing.

TheTinMenBlog · 2022-12-20T12:31:30+00:00

The problem with ‘toxic masculinity’ as a phrase, is that nobody knows what the hell you’re talking about.

I have seen it simply everywhere.It’s why men don’t recycle plastic bags. It’s why others die by suicide. It’s why men don’t wear masks, or why they eat meat. It’s why the UK is leaving the European Union and it got Donald Trump elected.

Apparently it’s driving global warming and it’s stopping men from washing their hands. It’s the explanation for gun crime, abuse and gang violence, and it crashed the economy in 2008.

How could one thing do all this?

How can something be the bane of men’s mental health, whilst also causing climate change and gun crime?

It is a cringey, jumbled and incoherent mess.

A word that simply maligns men and does its best to tie anything, and everything bad, to masculinity . No matter how tenuous or absurd.

Whether it’s in the media, in politics, online or in scholarship – it is increasingly used to just signal disapproval of men, and nothing more. So often the first word in a diatribe of bigotry; it’s an insult, it’s inexcusable, it is ironically, toxic itself.

And perhaps most shameful of all, is how it has sunk its insidious roots into the lower echelons of the psychological industry.

With low effort professionals using such silly viewpoints, like snake oil, in the treatment and understanding of vulnerable men.

Somehow to call a suicidal man ‘toxic’ is considered compassion, advocacy and even ‘treatment’ these days.

So what does ‘Toxic Masculinity’ mean to you?

And is it time to stop using it?

~Source

Dr Carol Harrington

How does Society see masculinity

Pew Studies Write up

Male Psychology Network Poll

Helen Lewis

Images by Gradient, Cesar Rincon, Olu Famule, and A-Z from Unsplash.

lavransson · 2022-12-20T13:16:02+00:00

I don’t like the term because it’s misunderstood because of simple grammar confusion and creates resentment unnecessarily.

Everyone likes food, right? But only good food. Not toxic food. When I say “toxic food” I mean “food that happens to be toxic.” I don’t mean “all food is toxic”.

For some reason, that distinction isn’t working similarly with “toxic masculinity.” It is falling into the pattern of “toxic waste” where both the adjective (toxic) and the noun (waste) are bad. Casual people who hear this phrase don’t think you’re saying “masculinity is good, we just don’t like it when it takes a toxic turn and becomes chauvinistic, violent and misogynistic.” No, they are hearing “masculinity itself is toxic and I guess therefore men are toxic.”

So stop fucking saying this phrase. It’s become like “defund the police.” It’s doing way more harm than good.

I don’t know what the better phrase is. How about just calling out misogyny, chauvinism, violence, etc.?

I think toxic masculinity is a carefully crafted term that is disingenuous. Even if the people who say this claim they are only calling out masculinity that is toxic, it’s still unnecessarily divisive. I think there is also undeniably a subtle attack on men by putting those two words together. They are subtly trying to tarnish masculinity by repeating “toxic” next to it, over and over. And it’s backfiring.

This is coming from someone who’s been a physical and psychological victim of actual masculinity that is toxic. I hate brute, bullying, violent men.

ObserverBlue · 2022-12-20T14:01:27+00:00

Great post.

To summarize my objection to the term, I see two main issues with it.

One is that the term is an oversimplification of society's idea of masculinity and its expectations of men. It pathologizes traits and attitudes that, although associated with masculinity, are negative when used with harmful effect not because of their relation to masculinity...but because they are being used with harmful effect. Also, the problem of referring to specific "masculine traits" as toxic is that those traits can in fact be beneficial in different circumstances. The same aggression and competitiveness some men use for harm are used by other men to accomplish benefits for others. In fact, the problem I have with the lectures about "toxic masculinity" is that the people who promote the term tend to ignore the fact that men are not expected to be strong, capable of aggression, etc. just for the sake of it. Men are expected to be that way so they get things done. Defeat an enemy, eliminate a threat, protect others, obtain resources, construct stuff, among other things associated with the male gender role. In fact, in an example of hilarious lack of self-awareness, many people who apply the term and denounce this phenomenon, inviting men to abandon this "toxic masculinity", also invite men to use their traits to take action in front of certain issues (like harassment), even in situations that can involve danger to those men (and thus requiring them to rely on traits like aggression and strength). The Gillette ad is a perfect example. Essentially, the term serves to basically further scrutinize masculinity and cherry-pick its expressions (which society has always done).

The second is that the term is also applied in situations of bigotry against men, with the effect of disguising the fact that there is bigotry against men. A simple example is the stigma around men being emotional or expressing emotions that are "passive" or "not in control" like sadness and fear. Is it because society loves men and it thinks men who hide their emotions are happier? Is it because in some ways society sees men as tools, and a tool that is too emotional is not useful? To echo what another commenter said, the term is also useful to avoid acknowledging that misandry exists.

Edit: spelling

Moist-Quiet-647 · 2022-12-20T22:47:52+00:00

What feminists call "toxic masculinity" is in fact failed masculinity.

It is men who for whatever reason failed to meet the absurdly high standards of traditional masculinity, are mocked and sometimes bullied for it, and are looking a (non-feminist) way around their defects to fit in, particularily in the mating area.

The liberal[1] feminist solution for it is to contrast this with a "healthy masculinity" that we should be aiming for. This supposedly healthy masculinity still keeps the high standards of traditional masculinity (being tall, fit, stoic, be a provider, etc) but adds another layer of standards (being super agreeable, comfortable around kids, always be at the service of women, etc).

Not only is this version of masculinity barely different from the traditional one, it makes the original problem worse: absurdly high standards to be considered a worthy man (by women and other men alike) will of course increase the frustration and desperation of the men who can't meet them, therefore creating more "toxic masculinity".

Thanks for this post. Concise and straight to the point as always.

[1] The nonliberal feminist solution is just to lock up male losers or even straight up kill them

Gnome_Child_Deluxe · 2022-12-20T15:09:57+00:00

Taking men's struggles and insecurities and calling it toxic masculinity and fragility is just a woke way of telling men to "man up", which is kinda ironic when you think about it.

hotpotato138 · 2022-12-20T16:59:18+00:00

"Toxic" masculinity generalizes and demonizes men.

NullableThought · 2022-12-20T12:53:42+00:00

I feel like there's a generation of boys who've only heard of masculinity as a negative and tied to "toxic masculinity".

I remember when the phrase had a concrete meaning that everyone who used the term understood. And then just like every other nuanced discussion, the phrase totally lost it's meaning once the general public got ahold of it. "Gaslighting" is another example of a phrase that's become meaningless. It's almost like the general public is too dense to understand nuance...

sambiak · 2022-12-20T15:27:19+00:00

You really make great posts, keep it up !

I really hate gender expectations, I don't want to fight people but I feel it's often expected of me. When I was bullied in high school the only way to make it stop was by fighting the bully in public.

Recently I had a roommate become violent with me. People told me that fighting him back was better than calling the police. How about no ? I'm not 15 years old anymore, I'm not supposed to solve my problems with violence.

The term toxic masculinity is counterproductive though. It's not my masculinity trying to make me fight, it's society's expectations.

RockmanXX · 2022-12-21T15:55:24+00:00

Toxic Masculinity is just a woke way to scold men for not being a "REAL MAN". You're not a "REAL MAN" if you don't do exactly what they want you to do.

matrixislife · 2022-12-20T14:52:02+00:00

As long as feminists maintain their support of the concepts of toxic masculinity and patriarchy they are never going to get my respect. It firmly puts me on the other side to them.

Garfish16 · 2022-12-21T02:47:46+00:00

Conservative feminists have done to the term "toxic masculinity" what conservatives broadly have done to the term "work". At one point it had utility and a fairly fixed meaning but today it operates as a slur and a catch-all term for something they don't like.

Joe_Immortan · 2022-12-21T06:54:04+00:00

“Toxic masculinity” used to refer to a toxic variety of masculinity but a lot of people now interpret it to mean “masculinity is toxic”

sparkydoggowastaken · 2022-12-21T03:22:59+00:00

when you use it like the proper phrase it is, as in peer pressure for men to act more “manly” and become more angry and rude, as well as act like you dont have feelings and are always happy, it is a useful term to describe things. when you use it wrong its bad.

2022-12-22T02:59:48+00:00

This is why I always ask people to define the terms they are using. If you ask them to define what toxic masculinity is and what positive masculinity is, it literally short circuits a lot of people's mentality. I find that alarming.

halladall · 2022-12-30T21:26:21+00:00

That phrase only exists to give men the blame for their problems, to have an excuse not to help them. Absolutly never use that phrase.

shit-zen-giggles · 2022-12-23T10:10:41+00:00

outstanding work once again, tin men 👍

A small suggestion / food for thought:

on the third image, I'd written 'any type of negative behaviour that the author/speaker desires to codify as masculine'.

This would point out the daemonizing functionality in which the term is typically employed.

Charl3magne · 2022-12-20T16:34:58+00:00

I think that it's a term that had its time and place. There are some aspects of male gender roles that are/were toxic. Stuff like, "don't be a pussy", don't do XYZ because it's "gay", and there are distinct type of masculine rudeness in most of our cultures such as catcalling. It was useful to be able to describe those things for a while and to point them out as the inherently toxic things that they are and to look at how it uniquely effects men.

But that time has come and gone and I'd be very happy to never hear the words "toxic masculinity" ever again. Toxic is toxic, and intrinsically tying toxicity to masculinity is absolutely harmful to men and boys. It shames us for being who we are and reacting to the gender roles that we contend with every day. If there was a foil of "healthy masculinity" that got as much or more airtime than toxic masculinity does, then I don't think it would be quite so much of a problem. We could talk about what we do well and what we need to work on to be better men interacting in an ambiguous world. Instead, all anyone ever seems to talk about is how men shouldn't act and what we do wrong. Nobody is willing to make a statement on what good masculinity looks like because they're afraid that it will somehow be seen as non-inclusive. Being this one sided, critical, cruel, and emotionally laden has just made toxic masculinity a slur.

As a man who identifies with my own masculinity, I don't really see my traits or actions as inherently masculine. Rather, the things I do are masculine because I am a man doing those things and expressing them in a typically male manner. Leadership is traditionally masculine (I love tradition, but I also love it when tradition makes way to new tradition), but it is not inherent, so when I express leadership I am doing it through a lens of masculinity because that is my lens. It doesn't even matter if my leadership looks more like traditionally feminine leadership styles, it's masculine leadership because I am masculine. If I am ever toxic, that toxicity will be MY toxicty, rather than belonging to my gender.

I like that you chose the words, "Let go". That's perfect because we can recognize the parts where it did add to the conversation, but now we can also reflect on how that conversation has lost its way and that it's time to move on.

CoffeeWorldly9915 · 2022-12-21T16:36:27+00:00

To learn about the far right, start with the manosphere

¿?

Sounds like:

To learn about far right white males, start with inceldom.

vaaralinen · 2023-01-15T10:52:37+00:00

another day of thanking god for being born and living in a country where most people either haven't heard of this concept or at least don't treat it as something serious or scientific

Title	It's time to let go of "toxic masculinity"
Author	TheTinMenBlog
Upvotes	364
Comments	52
Date	December 20, 2022 12:30 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/zqn7bw/its_time_to_let_go_of_toxic_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/its-time-to-let-go-of-toxic-masculinity.1208019 https://theredarchive.com/post/1208019

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