‘Male circumcision’ V.S. ‘female genital mutilation’: —gender bias in medical literature.

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Feminists want men to keep fighting uselessly for rights that should be inalienable while they forge ahead, working on greater rights for themselves.

Males who have had their genitals mutilated need to start making the person(s) who authorized it (their parents) pay for this crime in any way they can (could be emotional). Until there is a cost or penalty for those making this choice for others, it will never stop. The men who escaped this brutality should also let their opinions be known as widely as possible.

The cultural excuse does not cut it. We have long since abandoned other barbarities from the past. This is one more that should have been purged long ago.

The religious excuse also doesn't hold water. First, because a religion cannot be foisted on anyone living in a country that believes in freedom of religion. The child may opt for another religion or none at all. As well, those who claim authority from some "holy book" need to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that a) their god actually wrote that book (disciples or prophets or whatever would only constitute hearsay evidence), b) that deity is still alive and of the same opinion, c) that the written word was translated perfectly from whatever language it was originally written in; and d) that no one has edited, abbreviated or changed the text in any way over the hundreds or thousands of years of its existence.

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I feel you man. It is hard to maintain a relationship with your family when they’ve done that to you, and cutting them off is hard too.

I’ve talked to many men about this, and I’d say about 60% of the time, the parents get angry at the son for bringing it up. Not confused. Not shocked. Not sad. They get angry. They then proceed to not listen at all.

I thought it was weird at first. The son who was mutilated... EVEN IF YOU DONT SEE IT THAT WAY.... is deeply hurt by something you did. Wouldn’t that make you shocked instead of angry? Why be angry at someone who is hurting from your actions?

But I think it’s because they rack their brain looking for an excuse, come up empty handed, and become angry as a defense mechanism. They don’t want to face the reality that they raped their baby boy. So they become angry to try and put the son on the defensive.

This is exactly what happened in my personal case.

Out of all the men’s issues that exist, this one seems to be the one that makes men the most nauseous in my personal experience. Men have lived their whole life mutilated and raped without knowing it. Then when they’re older and understand a bit more, they have to either delude themselves and bury the trauma or look at themselves as a victim of genital mutilation. It’s a real hard pill to swallow.

The other part that makes it so terrible is that there’s no “moving on.” You will be hurt every single time you get naked to shower, every time you have sex, every time you have to readjust your dick in your pants because the most sensitive part has lost what is literally supposed to protect it. It’s not like there are only mental problems you have to overcome and then you are healthy. It’s a permanent physical scar that makes sure your mental scars last as long as it does.

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A major issue with the terminology is the fact that with male circumcision we almost always know exactly what we are talking about.....the procedure of removing the foreskin from the penis...nothing more, nothing less.

However there is much wider variety of cutting procedures for the female genitals. It should be that female circumcision is simply removal of the clitoral hood, nothing more and nothing less, since that is the equivalent of the male foreskin. And both can fairly be called specific types of genital mutilation.

Meanwhile, all other procedures should be referred to as genital mutilation to indicate its something else.

But what other MGM is there? Well, there is penile subcision. Its about all I know. But with FGM we have cutting of the labia minora, sewing of the vagina and even potential removal of the clitoris.

So while I don't like the failure to align the terminology, I have to admit, FGM covers a lot more things while with MGM we are usually talking about only one thing....so its not like its just pure gender bias.

[–]duhhhh 36 points37 points38 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Clitoridectomy is awful and much worse than a typical circumcision. Feminists like to count FGM using one definition and then imply all FGM is clitoridectomy for political gain. However, FGM also includes a lot of stuff less bad than infant male circumcision and all FGM is bad, ergo MGM is also bad.

For example clit and labia piercings on sober consenting adults....

Women who have genital piercings will be recorded as having suffered female genital mutilation (FGM) under new NHS rules due to come into force next month.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/women-with-vaginal-piercings-will-be-recorded-as-suffering-fgm-under-new-nhs-rules-10116464.html?amp

And a year later we hear about the epidemic of FGM perpetrated in the UK ... There has been a huge percentage increase! ... We need more funding! ... Except a couple news sources came out with some raw number details. Kinda sad when the dailymail is one of the few reporting the facts...

in the year to March 2017, only 57 were performed in the UK of which 50, or 87 per cent, were in the category for piercings, and all the women whose ages were known were over 18

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5434125/amp/Almost-FGM-cases-Britain-legal-piercings.html

And a year later the data manipulation paid off...

Now eight walk-in FGM centres, in Birmingham, Bristol, Leeds and five London boroughs, will offer women aged over 18 expert care, NHS England says.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-49677983

Likewise activists in Australia and the UK are pushing to get labiaplasty on adults categorized as FGM.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/26/female-genital-mutilation-is-alive-in-australia-its-just-called-labiaplasty

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/11475276/Designer-vaginas-to-be-made-illegal-Have-MPs-gone-mad.html

To the point the medical community is concerned about being arrested or losing medical licenses over performing cosmetic surgery in the area of the vagina.

https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6094

How about we promote stopping all routine genital cosmetic procedures till the patient is 18?

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There are objective sensitivity tests and subjective response reports. Men circumcised as adults in Africa noted no difference in sensitivity. I doubt very much that thinking that HIV prevention was part of the the null hypothesis would alter a man’s subjective pleasure in having sex, but if you want to make the claim that such men had some psychosomatic non alteration of sexual pleasure, I can’t prove you wrong, but it’s a strange idea. I’d be pretty pissed off if my dick was suddenly less sensitive than before a surgical intervention no matter the reason.
Plenty of adult males are circumcised for medical reasons, there are some who choose it for cosmetic reasons, they seem to be happy enough. Men circumcised as infants enjoy sex immensely, I suppose you could argue that they would enjoy it even more immensely than immensely, maybe heavenly immensely, maybe so immensely that they all would have severe premature ejaculation as a result, I don’t know, it sounds super duper orgasmic, maybe enough to cause a seizure.

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With all due respect, that's complete bullshit.

FGM only "has more downsides" because FGM includes all forms of genital modification to girls

Which, even when talking about Male Genital Mutilation, people still only think of the subset of issues like the most commonly accepted form. There are many others, but society in it's infinite sexist wisdom doesn't bother to count them as victims of MGM. Boys who have their penis' cut off entirely or their testicles damaged aren't included in the statistic, but for FGM a clitorectomy is included, as well as any and all other possible harms that maybe be done.

So the issue you're having has nothing to do with how severe MGM/FGM are, it's that society works so fucking hard to ensure male sexual abuse isn't treated as severely as female sexual abuse that even the stats for the terms don't reflect the same things.

Which is exactly what we're trying to change by treating the term Male Genital Mutilation as if it covers all forms of mutilation in the same way FGM covers it for girls, and we get pushback (even ITT, tbh) just using the term at all.

You're "Well girls have it worse so don't talk about the sexual abuse of boys unless you make sure to point out (repeatedly and with gumption!) how much worse girls have it" is just sexist bullshit that you should definitely feel ashamed of thinking contributed to this conversation.

[–]CampaignSpecific2534 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

subset of issues like the most commonly accepted form.

I am sorry, I didn't know there were any other forms of genital mutilation than the commonly accepted form. I am glad to have been educated.

So the issue you're having has nothing to do with how severe MGM/FGM are

True, I am sorry abt that.

You're "Well girls have it worse so don't talk about the sexual abuse of boys unless you make sure to point out (repeatedly and with gumption!) how much worse girls have it" is just sexist bullshit that you should definitely feel ashamed of thinking contributed to this conversation.

Not completely, but I get why you would say that. Anyways, do you have any book or resource which I can use to educate myself on this issue more? I am a man and I am circumcized, so I thought that is what people were talking about when talking abt MGM. Anyway, thank you for the reply, it actually helped me.

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I just realized that a good number of subredditers here are anti-male circumcision like yourself. However, In my culture, all males about 10-15 of age must be circumcised, and this is usually followed up with a change in responsibility for the circumcised. Circumcision for male is viewed positively for men in my culture.

Plus after healing, there's no disadvantage of the procedure that I know, unless you tell me.

A little google search brought this up "provides life-long partial protection against HIV, decreases the risk of urinary tract infections and sexually transmitted diseases (STIs), protects against cancer of the penis and prevents inflammation of the glands and foreskin altogether."

I know that I'm going to receive a thousand more downvotes for this, so this might as well be my last post here.

But seriously, what is the upside of anti-circumcision? What's the point?

[–]mik123mik1 15 points16 points17 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

The HIV study was shown to be false. The risk of utis is from people who don't clean. Removing any part of the body lowers your chances of cancer. It absolutely does not protect against inflammation of the glans, and a piece of you that is no longer attached cannot be inflamed. So how about we remove your pinky toes and pinky fingers? That will reduce your chances of cancer and prevent injury and inflammation!

No one has a problem with people choosing to be circumcised, but here in America and most of Europe, when it is done, its done to babies without anesthesia. And that's not just Jewish people here in the states. But the reason people are down voting you is because you are speaking nonsense about benefits that don't exist and defending the continued disregard of boys bodily autonomy while defending girls bodily autonomy. Btw, the reduces cancer and inflammation defenses of circumcision can be used for all forms mutilation as long as your willing to disregard the persons bodily autonomy.

[–]Altruistic_Emotion_91 points 3 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]mik123mik1 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

All previous research confirming the hypothesis that foreskin is soft and breaks easily during sex should be thrown out?? Are they false??

https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/28/circumcision-prevents-hiv-infection-medical-myth

note the BMJ is a reputable medical journal and it cites many MANY sources. everywhere else only references the several observational studies done in africa which all had very glaring methodology issues.

BUT! let's hypothetically say that you are right and that it does help prevent HIV. Are babies at risk of HIV from having sex? Are children? Or is it that only people old enough to consent to such a procedure that are at risk? So even if you are correct, which you are not, that is not an acceptable reason to violate a boy's bodily autonomy and remove a piece of his body without his consent.

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Even the less invasive procedures negativity affects most women negatively

Is that why in Indonesia, the largest girl-cutting culture on Earth, 92% of women say they'd cut their daughters, and only 2% of those women say female circumcision isn't beneficial.

Again, you are selectively looking at a fraction of FGM and ignoring the facts people are telling you about other forms.

I'm from Kenya and I know what I'm talking about.

Doesn't seem like you're familiar with the full picture. Would you tell the women in those Youtube videos I already provided (which, unsurprisingly, you seem to have ignored) that they don't know what you're talking about? Here, I'll even link them again:

https://youtu.be/NaEoQVZnN8I

https://youtu.be/Ggqa6CCTR-4

You're comparing "feelings" with real life consequences

No, I'm acknowledging all the world's FGM victims, while you are erasing a full half (~100 million) of them just to minimize MGM.

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Yet fails to justify how it is so. You can't just call someone a pedophile without having to explain yourself. Words have meaning. And you said a whole lotta nothing right there. So before you call out someone's "gotcha!" with a gotcha!, ask yourself did i really make a comprehensive point? Or did you just spew a bunch of slurs without explaining how they apply.

We're on a mens rights subreddit. I assume you also believe we shouldn't immediately believe ALL women with sexual assault allegations? Using the same logic, you can't just make a huge freakin allegation without backing it up. Back it up.

You simply can't. Thats why in your replies you've said absolutely nothing to back up these big words. Perhaps because you know you can't explain how billions of parents suddely become sexually attracted to children and sexist to their own sex under your mischaracterization simply because their child had a medical procedure. Make it make sense💫

[–]AvailableCandidate89 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're a pedophile for defending the practice of sexually molesting and arousing infant boys in order to get them erect for the pending mutilation.

The exact "medical procedure" we're talking about. It requires performing an actual sex act and making the child sexually aroused before torturing them.

You're the one with your head up your ass here bud. We don't have to defend that mutilating the genitals of children is wrong, you have to provide evidence that whatever imagined benefits are enough to put aside our usual and default protection of a child from sexual abuse.

And you're not doing that, which means you're defending the sexual abuse of children, which fine you're right that's not technically pedophilia, it's just defending it as something acceptable and not to be judged, which i consider just as bad. Tomato tomahto.

[–]IcyImplement3617 -4 points-3 points-2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What the hell, just wow. Any ounce of credibility your argument could have had just went. Nobody, not anybody, in their right mind would believe what you sir just said. Read it back to yourself, please. Idk what circumcision you're referring to, but doctors do not molest and arouse freakin babies you sicko.

It wasn't my prerogative to list the benefits of circumcision for that is the other guy's statement. The burden of proof is on you sir, you made an accusation, you have to support it. And if this is the support you think won your position, go on live tv and say it, you will be mocked for how outlandish and nonsensical it is, even among largely uncircumcised societies.

Also i saw that backpeddling at the end there. Correct, its not pedophilia. Therefore, its not supporting pedophilia. Neither is it sexual abuse for it is a non-sexual act. Is a surgery to remove cancer of the penis sexual in nature just because it involves a sexual organ? No of course not. You are the messed up one for making something sexual which isn't.

But i don't mind listing the benefits to prove a point, because science backs them: - Easier/better hygiene - Lower risk of UTI - Lower STI - Virtually almost no risk of penile cancer - Lower risk of cervical cancer for female partners And more...

^ it not only helps male health but also female. You can deny the science (as i'm sure you will), but the science is there and it is credible. Because unlike you, these have been peer reviewed by qualified medical professionals. Not sensationalists like you who shout buzzwords rather than fact checking.

[–]AvailableCandidate89 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What the hell, just wow. Any ounce of credibility your argument could have had just went.

Way to dismiss the argument that you, personally, don't like instead of pointing out how the argument might be wrong

Nobody, not anybody, in their right mind would believe what you sir just said

The majority of people here believe this. You are the moral equivalent of a pedo by advocating for doing anything with a child's genitals without their consent (or even with it, leave kids' dicks alone)

Easier/better hygiene - Lower risk of UTI - Lower STI

Wrong, the foreskin helps with hygiene, removing it makes it worse.

Wrong, there is no statistically significantly lower risk of UTI's

Wrong, there is not statistically significantly lower risk of STI's

So you're just full of bullshit today, huh? (that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, you don't have any evidence, and i don't need any to say mutilating a child's genitals counts as sexual abuse, because that's the default state)

so go fuck yourself!

[–]IcyImplement3617 -4 points-3 points-2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]derek20la 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Such as these studies showing female circumcision reducing HIV infection by 50%?

Stallings et al. (2005) Reported that, in Tanzanian women, the risk of HIV among women who had undergone female circumcision was roughly half that of women who had not; the association remained significant after adjusting for region, household wealth, age, lifetime partners, union status, and recent ulcer.

Georgia State University, Public Health Theses. The Association between female circumcision and the Risk of HIV/AIDS in Kenyan Girls and Women (15-49 Years):

RESULTS: This study shows an inverse association between female circumcision and HIV, after adjusting for confounding variables. DISCUSSION: The inverse association between female circumcision and HIV established in this study suggests a possible protective effect of female circumcision against HIV. This finding suggests therefore the need to authenticate this inverse association in different populations and also to determine the mechanisms for the observed association. This study investigated whether there is a direct association between female circumcision and HIV. Surprisingly, the results indicated that the practice of female circumcision turned out to reduce the risk of HIV. While a positive association was hypothesized, a surprising inverse association between cases of female circumcision and positive HIV serostatus was obtained, hence indicating that female circumcision may have protective properties against the transmission of HIV. http://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1113&context=iph_theses

National Bureau of Statistics, Tanzania - 50% reduction in HIV/AIDS in women who have have parts of the genitals amputated

http://www.tzonline.org/pdf/femalecircumcisionandhivinfectionintanzania.pdf

[–]Bowie-Trip 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	‘Male circumcision’ V.S. ‘female genital mutilation’: —gender bias in medical literature.
Author	NeoNotNeo
Upvotes	355
Comments	161
Date	April 24, 2023 11:07 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/12xbwhy/male_circumcision_vs_female_genital_mutilation/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/male-circumcision-vs-female-genital-mutilation.1216801 https://theredarchive.com/post/1216801

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