How does one practice without danger of being accused of "sexual harrassment" and treated like a predator?

pompandpride · 2017-12-20T16:20:24+00:00

Life Pro-Tip: don't read Scott Adams and don't get wrapped up in how feminism and modern trends are bringing your quality of life down. That will just justify your bitterness and give you excuses. "I'm the victim of Cultural Movement X" and approaching women do not mix. Just focus on YOUR interaction with the person in front of YOU. Also, it sounds like you're hitting on women instead of flirting with them - the former is serious and solicitous while the latter is playful, where the outcome does not matter.

It is harassment if:

You are her boss or coworker and you're giving her an uncomfortable environment to work in.
You persist in talking to woman after she has shown no interest.

Short of that, don't worry so much. And, honestly, a bit of empathy can be helpful here. A woman wants to go to the goddamn post office and can't get there without some dude panhandling for her vagina. In the case of sales, the woman is probably just trying to buy a damn toaster and she has to deal with some guy hitting on her. Make it less about trying to sell your dick and more about having a fun and playful encounter. You cannot hit on a woman before she is attracted to you.

torito_supremo · 2017-12-20T16:30:27+00:00

We live in a world where there is no difference between "sexual harrassment" and trying to flirt with someone who isn't attracted to you.

Dude, with all respect, I think that this belief stems out of your own insecurities and you're using it as an excuse for not trying anymore. Yeah, you had a bad experience, but let's be real: most of the time, if women aren't interested, they'll just politely say no, or suggestively ("This bar is great, me and my boyfriend come here often..."). Unless you really act like an ass to her (which I really doubt) or you don't respect her boundaries or choices, she won't accuse you of anything.

the feminist witch hunt against men based on male sexuality existing

Drop this way of thinking, please; it will totally make you bitter and hinder your social/sex life. There's no conspiracy nor a group or agenda "taking what's yours". NOBODY is holding you down but yourself. (BTW, Women do get sexually harassed pretty often. All of my female friends have at least one story of some jerk touching them where/when they didn't want to be touched)

Shrek2Soundtrack · 2017-12-20T17:36:27+00:00

Some people just want to be able to shop without getting hit on by the employees. That was unprofessional, I don't get why you're complaining

Methane_superhero · 2017-12-20T16:45:35+00:00

Start by going to lots of social gatherings and just focus on getting to know people. Keep an eye out for signs that they're attracted to you, but mostly focus on genuinely having good interactions and getting to know the other person.

This is the approach I recommend because this will strengthen your awareness of what constitutes an interaction that is going well or going badly. When you have honed this awareness, you will be able to engage more safely and know when to back off.

rich_fletch · 2017-12-20T17:06:04+00:00

Learning social calibration - especially when a girl is into you and is inviting you to approach vs is just being polite - will go a long way.

I think in the modern world, a deep empathy and understanding for how women feel when you are talking to them, and when you can/can't escalate is really necessary if you don't want to be on the receiving end of a harrassment charge.

However, you have to have social interactions to learn this calibration.

So it's important to understand there are environments where you have more leeway to make mistakes than others. In a bar in the evening? You're probably ok - there's an expectation (to some level) that men approach women in bars and most women expect to get hit on.

In the middle of a shopping mall? Fine if you know what you're doing but you have less leeway to screw up. Could be a problem if not. If you're seen approaching numerous women and having short interactions, you will look like a desperate creep. Great way to get yourself in trouble. So maybe stick to the safer bar interactions first until you build up some social calibration.

She's in a quiet parking lot at night, walking to her car? If the mall is medium risk, this is super high risk. You have zero leeway to make any mistakes. She's going to be on edge and worried about if you're a rapist/murderer/both. I'm not saying you can't turn this around and get her onside...but you're best avoiding the situation altogether.

Don't forget that women are generally smaller and physically more vulnerable than we are. So the less physically safe the environment is for her, the less leeway you have to screw up.

Right now it sounds like you need social interactions under your belt, and to learn fast. So go and learn in low risk environments.

2017-12-20T14:07:29+00:00

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KP6Goat · 2017-12-20T15:31:27+00:00

Just be respectful and realize if she's not into you. Most girls are pretty nice even when they reject you and I doubt that you will get into any trouble if you respect their disinterest, unless if you're famous then you should lock yourself in a box and never talk to a female or you will be publicly crucified. Also I would avoid trying to pick up girls while working.

Dgremlin · 2017-12-20T17:19:11+00:00

Youre weird because you set time aside to practice and it shows to people. You need to learn to do it while living your life so your not standing around for hours creeping on people.

trpmkb12 · 2017-12-20T15:40:13+00:00

Context, social awareness, and plausible deniability. At it's very core the starting steps to getting to know someone are basic social skills.

recyclablebanthas · 2017-12-21T04:50:19+00:00

____1____

We live in a world where there is no difference between "sexual harrassment" and trying to flirt with someone who isn't attracted to you. This turns flirting into a game of Russian roulette.

To summarize what's been said, flirting and sexual harassment are easy to differentiate between.

The trouble is, if one is building up one's social skills and then they take advice from someone who gives shitty advice, they might end up adopting behaviors that are just tone deaf.

____2____

Earlier this year, I was banned from working at a college campus for asking a girl out.....

And to clarify, you were not banned for asking a girl out. You need to let go of this framing.

The issue here is that you're poorly calibrating to people socially. And if you insist on looking back on this from the perspective that all you did was ask a girl out, then you have much less room for improvement here.

You want help? Tell us exactly what you said when you asked her out. Tell us exactly how it went down. Then we can help you.

____3____

The #MeToo craze, and the fact that the accusers became Time's person of the year, makes me think that the feminist witch hunt against men based on male sexuality existing, has been ramped up to a maximum this year.

It's really not a witch hunt. I've always maintained good female friendships throughout my life. And I've been a fly on the wall for numerous girl talk sessions. Very informative. One conversation I was listening to this year, before all the Weinstein stuff hit, was girls talking about how they pretty much take it for granted that they're going to be felt up and groped against their will when they go out at night.

This shit is real, and honestly, this shift away from all that being acceptable, is only going to help everyone in the end. I can't tell you how many times I've been out at a venue and everyone starts off friendly and happy to talk to strangers...... and then the tone deaf dudes come in later on in the night. Drunk and having struck out or been kicked out of other places, they roll in and start awkwardly "approaching" left and right, and then suddenly, all the girls are NOT friendly or happy to talk to anyone they don't know.

If we fixed this situation, it would make gaming easier for everyone. Not more difficult. Imagine how many women are harder to approach because they're battle-hardened and used to tons of awkward come-ons. Imagine everything being more relaxed.

____4____

I'm terrified that if I practice cold approach, I am going to end up prosecuted.

With the cold approaching you've already done, you have the confidence to interact with strangers. What you need is to work on calibration. Couple ways to do that:

Focus on paying attention. Stop thinking about what to say or tricks or whatever. All the information you need is right in front of your face. You need to be paying attention to the people around you and the things happening around you.
Go socialize in mixed groups of men and women. There are a ton of groups that have regular events you could join today. They even promote their events on FB or on pages you could find with Google. Don't practice building up cold approach. For you, build up a foundation first by getting used to socializing with people.

____5____

What sort of events? There are a lot of options.

Hash runs. Trail running + beer + fit people = win
Couchsurfing meets. Hang with travelers and people who like to be around travelers.
Social partner dancing. Salsa, Tango, Lindy hop, West coast swing, etc. You really can't go wrong. Learn something fun and have an excuse to be close to a girl in a fun and non-threatening way. Also, you're going to learn how to get comfortable being in close and touching a girl and learning how to know when and how they like being touched.
Download the Meet-up app. Scan for groups near you that you share an interest with.

Chichachachi · 2017-12-20T16:24:59+00:00

A large part of pua skills is about getting extremely calibrated to when girls aren't feeling comfortable and backing off, making them chase, moving on if you can tell she isn't interested, etc as a response. I think if more people learned these skills there'd be a lot less harassment. Guys harass women because they don't know how to get their needs met for female contact in any other way.

SyrusDrake · 2017-12-20T20:15:08+00:00

I know that feeling. Recently, I started to consciously analyze, question and compare anything I read on the internet. What you need to understand first is how private "news" outlets work. "Thousands of planes take off and land safely" is a true headline but it won't get you readers, which is the currency in times of online ad revenue. A "good" headline needs to either scare or polarize. A great headline/article does both. An article about how all men are rapists and should never approach women does it all. It makes women afraid of men, men afraid of (approaching) women and it agitates men vs women. People become outraged and share the article on social media, more and more people visit the page and ad revenue goes through the roof. I've known that for ages but I still kept reading "horror stories" about that one city where flirting was outlawed, about guys who got expelled from university for asking a girl out and so on. Probably for the same kind of kick we get from reading actual horror stories. But I realized it wasn't doing me any good. Being scared by a fictional story is fun. Being inhibited by a scary story you think is true is not. So a first step was to analyze my reading behavior. Was I really interested in the content or was I just reading it for the emotional kick of the outrage? Then I would ask myself if something like this could really happen in my world, not based on whether or not the story told me it could but based on my own observations of the very world I live in. Have any of my female friends ever complained about a guy saying hi to them and asking them for drinks? No, in fact they have personally told me how much they like it when that happens and how rarely it happens, much to their regret. ALL of them, however, do have stories of men either yelling sexual obscenities at them in public or touching their private parts without consent... Next, I ask myself if this really was a world that mature, mentally stable, heterosexual women want to create, a world where men were afraid to approach them. No again, contrary to what the society in general tells you, women love sex and they get really fucking frustrated if all guys are too chicken to come talk to them and eventually bang them.
And finally, I count how many students of my university were expelled for asking out a girl. The number is zero.

This isn't an easy process. I'm still scared by those stories, like a kid that was reading a scary book before bed. If you wouldn't go for enraging and scaring headlines like a moth for a light bulb, someone wouldn't be doing their job properly. But try to be more conscious of your reading behavior, question the "truth" that is presented to you and see if it's actually congruent with the reality around you.

(Disclaimer: I live in Switzerland. From what I know, some parts of the US, especially universities, really are completely crazy. But either way, you should still base your actions on the actual world around you, not based on some outrage-fantasy you read about.)

Lambdal7 · 2017-12-20T22:08:32+00:00

Don't ask a girl if she doesn't seem interested. Ask girls out where you have already built up decent rapport and she is giggly and flirting back. Duh.

BlackPyro · 2017-12-20T23:35:59+00:00

Social Calibration for starters.

Have abundance mentality so you don't end up chasing after a girl.

Know the difference between "day-game" and "night game" and their nuances, i.e. don't k-close a cold approach target in broad daylight like you would if you were at a club.

If you are going to do cold approach, don't shit where you eat, or in the least run indirect game and be discreet at places that you frequent alot.

If you want to go the extra step for safety, record your sets from open to close.

amohnacs · 2017-12-20T17:08:24+00:00

Give less fucks and practice more.

Good game doesn't look like game at all. Just a fun conversation.

BUT keep in mind that by talking to girls you are forcing others to confront how much they hate their life and how they don't get laid so you will always have people who think that men talking to women openly is immoral.

Xaxxus · 2017-12-20T22:56:39+00:00

Be normal. If you don't give them a reason to hate you, they most likely wont. Even if they aren't interested.

Women aren't just going to flat out reject you unless you give them a reason to (Unless she's in some sort of fucked up mood or you are trying to pickup in Toronto).

WhatMixedFeelings · 2017-12-21T00:43:18+00:00

Excellent question OP. This is the main reason I've been distancing myself from dating, and women in general, for a few months now. Ain't nobody got time for a sexual harassment allegation and all the consequences that come with it.

poddo_ · 2017-12-20T18:34:00+00:00

The first step would be to understand the difference between sexual harassment and flirting honestly. And also, you're largely misunderstanding feminism and why society is bringing it to light as of late. With this mindset, women won't feel safe around you at all, so won't a lot of men. I'm not saying you should just go up and start being super pro-feminist and totally change your views, no, but feminism is not as hostile as you think. It's painted as hostile by the media and by really young people who don't exactly understand what feminism is - but in reality, it actually exists to help people of each and every gender find equality. Men just unfortunately happen to be on the side of the gender spectrum that have more rights than women due to how society structured itself throughout the years, this could have 100% been a world where women were the oppressors and men were the ones fighting for equality if society decided so a couple thousand years back. Once you kind of stop separating women and men by gender and start looking at things as they really are and realize that the world is not as hostile to you as you think it is, and once you stop feeling like you belong in the "victim being hunted by the other side" role (this goes for people of every gender!), things will be a lot clearer.

baddog992 · 2017-12-20T17:44:35+00:00

The cases that make the news are not flirting at all. Asking a woman do you want to watch me masturbate in a shower is not flirting. Fondling a woman's breast isn't flirting.

A lot of what I have read online is way past flirting. I doubt any woman is going to scream rape if you compliment her on her hair, shoes or outfit. Don't be handsy and don't be creepy. Example of being a creep. Asking a woman if she wants to watch you masturbate. Asking a woman if you can watch her masturbate. Both creepy if you don't that person very well.

Steve_Savage · 2017-12-21T22:21:29+00:00

You're not supposed to hit on customers, didn't you read the employee handbook.

ArtichokeOwl · 2017-12-20T22:35:41+00:00

Personally, before I was married I was most likely to either a) date guys I already knew in some capacity (for example, we met in a campus organization) b) date guys I met through mutual friends or c) maybe use online dating cautiously. A guy I don't know at all approaching me in public would feel pretty unnerving given that 99% of those interactions in my experience end badly (street harassment - a man yelling bitch or slut at me because I didn't smile when they told me to smile at them, etc. Happens more than you might think). That being said, if you MUST approach someone you don't know at all in public, be extremely subtle and be ready for "back off" cues. If a cute guy smiled at me on the subway, that might have gotten my attention. Striking up a very casual conversation might work out. Instead of asking for a date, give her your number. She can choose to call or not too (definitely feels safer). It may not turn you into a great pick-up artist, but if your goal is not to creep out women this will work better.

ImJustSo · 2017-12-20T17:31:47+00:00

There are many ways to approach women, there's many ways to get a number, and a date. And you can absolutely avoid any behaviors that may be interpreted as harassment.

My style of pickup won't ever be associated with harassment, just because of how I present myself. When I enter or exit an interaction, a woman won't even be positive that I'm attracted to her, or aware she just got picked up.

OVRFIEND · 2017-12-21T04:27:39+00:00

Thou shalt go hither to another land where women are more reasonable and grounded.

2017-12-20T19:47:19+00:00

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How does one practice without danger of being accused of "sexual harrassment" and treated like a predator?

Comments

metoo isn't a craze. It's a movement of women tired of being blown off, ignored, and made to feel like objects with no voice to refuse.

Title	How does one practice without danger of being accused of "sexual harrassment" and treated like a predator?
Author	elfgod
Upvotes	98
Comments	79
Date	December 20, 2017 1:44 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/7l1gjn/how_does_one_practice_without_danger_of_being/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/how-does-one-practice-without-danger-of-being.1438767 https://theredarchive.com/post/1438767