There is nothing wrong with manipulation

crumblesnatch · 2018-01-28T19:21:51+00:00

As with a lot of things, intent matters.

I probably won't mind being manipulated if it's to keep me in the dark about a surprise birthday party. I would mind a hell of a lot if being manipulated results in some kind of harm or puts me in a situation I'm uncomfortable with.

MoodyAres · 2018-01-28T19:23:45+00:00

Using words is a form of manipulation since you can influence the behaviour of another organism.

Altrightsjwfusion · 2018-01-28T19:59:34+00:00

Every single social interaction we have is manipulative. The only thing that separates "non manipulative" and "manipulative" is an awareness of how your actions and the subtle use of words will effect those observing. The only way to eliminate this manipulation, that people keep claiming is somehow bad, would be to eliminate all social interaction. Sorry not gonna happen.

I disagree. I think Manipulation is what you do when you're not expressing yourself genuinely, but instead you are intentionally acting in a way you hope will influence someone to do something specific. The degree to which people see this as "wrong" is probably related to how different the behavior is from your actual, genuine behavior. If people don't perceive any consistency in your behavior, they will label you as fake and manipulative.

And this is probably the core of why people dislike manipulative behavior. You can't trust people who are overly manipulative.

Nordicflame · 2018-01-29T02:37:30+00:00

Sometimes I feel like my bf can be manipulative. He does not compliment me very much and I fell like he only gives out the bare minimum of romance to me. It hurts because I love him so much even though he does less in the relationship than I do. Manipulation can be very hurtful to a partner

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-01-28T19:35:46+00:00

Who cares if people think manipulation is bad

grindlegrundle · 2018-01-28T21:24:16+00:00

I actually agree, although I think manipulation CAN be morally wrong if it is used to take advantage of people or bring them to harm. But it's the action taken with the intent to harm that is wrong, not the fact of the manipulation.

There's a great story by Ursula LeGuin (RIP) that I read a while back about a society where any kind of manipulation between adults is taboo. This simple fact makes for a culture that seems totally alien and very lonely, almost monastic. I believe it's called "Solitude." Definitely worth a read.

FrontierPsycho · 2018-01-28T22:13:51+00:00

You're defining manipulation as "any action that affects other people". That's not what manipulation means. Even looking at Merriam Webster online (and excluding literal meanings), you get:

to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

Once you see that actions are varied in intent, you see that there can be actions that are honest and genuine.

Then you can also separate those from manipulation, which is often egoistic and insidious. It's treating others as either enemies or inferior.

And that is bad, you are being dishonest and wasting people's time, and potentially hurting them.

blackedoutfast · 2018-01-29T06:30:02+00:00

manipulation is amoral, it's simply a tool that can be used in immoral ways.

manipulation is also an inherent part of human communication. every one of us is constantly trying to persuade and influence each other in certain ways.

it's not inherently wrong or unethical to be aware of the tools and methods of persuasion or to consciously make use of them, but you can use those tools in an unethical way when you start using fake persuasive support that doesn't really exist.

so for example, if other people are also doing something that you want a person to do, there's nothing wrong with making them aware of it, even if it's because you know that social proof is very persuasive.

but it becomes unethical if you fabricate false social proof and lie and tell them that other people are doing a thing you want them to do when it's not really true.

Cialdini's "Influence" is highly recommend if you're interested in this topic.

TheBookOfSeil · 2018-01-28T20:22:22+00:00

Sure, there's nothing "wrong" with it because morality is a construct based on our feelings. It's "wrong" to "steal" and "cheat" but from a naturalistic perspective, the stealers and cheaters survive. However, even though everything is technically "manipulation," I would say that overt manipulation is for the weaker animals/people because they need to overtly manipulate to get what they want.

There's also a difference in purposefully being manipulative and being natural about what you're saying and doing.

Scatre · 2018-01-28T21:33:39+00:00

If I held a gun up to your head and "manipulated" you into giving me money, would it be bad?

Of course certain manipulation is "bad" to most people. It's subjective, what you think is manipulation is different than what other people do. When a girl pretends to love a guy just to get his money I consider it "wrong". When a guy leads a girl on just to get sex from her I consider it "bad". However, expecting NOT to get manipulative from other is naive. It's still wrong though, according to me. I'll still think your a piece of shit and may even try to get revenge if I feel you made a severe transgression against my trust.

RepresentativeData · 2018-01-28T21:50:27+00:00

Manipulation happens through interpretation. Everything one reads here they have three choices: accept it as true, reject it as false, or ignore it. One is forced to make that choice whenever they read something or listen to someone speak. That forced choice is subtle manipulation.

abyssiniancatbird · 2018-01-29T05:14:41+00:00

There's a fine line between having an agenda and being manipulative, though the two are completely interchangeable IMO.

Every single person has an agenda, whether they're aware of it or not. Many things are simply just laying there in the unconscious and can be fairly benign and non-threatening, but everything you do is done with a purpose in mind. Manipulation on the other hand, refers to the actionable stuff you do, and how much of your specific actions interfere with some sort of trajectory so the odds that things end up the way you would like are higher than if you did not act in a way you are completely conscious of. You are 100% dead-on by saying manipulation = awareness. It simply comes down to whether your actions cause harm to others, or cause them to act in ways that make them hurt themselves.

That's why I personally believe that people who do not acknowledge these facts and are effectively completely naive about the way the human mind works (or think they are above these processes) are the most dangerous. They have zero awareness of whether they are hurting people or not. I personally believe that in order to be a truly good person, you have to acknowledge the power and potential in you to do absolute harm, but you must overcome those brutish forces through building inner strength and thus, real power and good.

Aaren_Augustine · 2018-01-28T20:38:55+00:00

It's the difference between influence and manipulation.

Influence takes in account both or multiple parties. Manipulation assumes self gratification over others an probably at the determent to others. MRP is a great example of the choice between being influential and manipulative.

And then you MUST choose a moral stance. Which explains MRP precisely; especially due to their "fluidity"

Edit - One is a covert contract expecting unspoken results. The other is just being fucking awesome.

that_other_person1 · 2018-01-28T19:15:13+00:00

You are right. As the ‘victim’ of manipulation (in the case of casual sex, unless it’s rape, which doesn’t have to be casual sex), you should just realize that you are being manipulated and decide if you’re okay with that or not. As the observer, which is the nice guy in your post, learn from it and how to be like them, or play the game of securing commitment instead, if this is what you prefer. But either way, you have to learn what women want and make yourself high value to get what you seek.

daveofmars · 2018-01-28T20:13:48+00:00

Sorry, OP, I wish I could disagree. I think the only thing I would disagree on is that manipulation that uses deception is wrong, but manipulation without deception is still widely and frequently used with beneficial or benign effects.

Like, pointing out a flaw in someone's thinking or informing them of something they might not have known is manipulating and changing their psychological state, and most of the time it helps them out.

And if people really didn't want to be manipulated then why do they still have television and the internet in their homes? Half the advertisements out there are trying to manipulate you to buy something.

Wearing makeup is manipulation. Even if women wear it for themselves they're still trying to manipulate the vision of their own self-concept. Why do people dress nice for a job interview? Is that not to manipulate the other person to perceive you as a worthwhile candidate? In reality, the physical clothes you wear have nothing to do with your job ability.

Manipulation is all around us and if you're not aware of it then you really should be because people who aren't aware of it get taken advantage by it.

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newName543456 · 2018-01-29T07:52:36+00:00

Manipulation tends to be "wrong", when you are on the receiving end.

When on the giving end, everything is usually A-OK.

Volkan-Volmer · 2018-01-29T15:49:47+00:00

Manipulation is negative and it can be considered wrong, if you do something at least own it up.

What we know though is that everyone does it, literally every human does it so yes it is wrong but it still happens.

I won't use manipulation if i get what i want from you, it's only when being nice does not work, that is when it comes in handy to manipulate the individual in giving you waht you want, it does not matter how you do it, you hurt their feelings or whatever, as long as you get what you want you win, the ends justify the means.

aDoseOfEmpathy · 2018-01-29T20:12:52+00:00

I wonder what things would be like for you if you tried to live a more in-the-moment, genuine life...without these instilled beliefs.

People do not have to be as cutthroat as you make them out to be.

genethedog · 2018-01-29T21:04:08+00:00

Everyone has an 'agenda' in an interaction I suppose. Even if your agenda is to have a conversation about the weather to have a small connection with someone to lighten you day. My issue with this "everyone manipulates" boils down to "Everyone has an agenda, but what are you willing to do/take from someone to achieve it"

Using a RP example, if a woman is playing nicey nice/submissive and flirty to have a guy get interested in her so she can have a baby and have him marry her or just provide support her whole life, that shit is insanely selfish. There is no empathy at all for the other person. Why do that to someone? That shit is evil.

Sure, you can say "well it was his choice too" and all that jazz but it's the precognition/premeditation that changes second degree murder to first. And i think we all agree (as the law does too) that killing someone in a crazed moment of passion is bad, really bad, but not nearly as bad as planning that shit. Planning it means they had time to think about it from the other persons perspective (empathy) and the perpetrator either didn't do that or wasn't capable of it; we call this psychopathy.

The whole idea of honor is basically that you only take what you deserved/earned and are honest about what you want and what you take. Not possessing this virtue makes us no different than animals and what you take will only benefit you and, heres the kicker, will only really benefit you in the short term. Even if that is sperm-jacking some guy. Fact is, that might get you a paycheque for 18 years (until the baby reaches adulthood) but what about after that?

There is no real long term thought to even your life beyond that, nevermind the victim or even the lessons the offspring will learn and employ throughout their life.

What if the offspring is a male, how can a woman that does this not realize that she's perpetuating this culture and that her beloved son will now have to endure the same as the victim?

This is the ultimate solipsism. If you steal enough from someone, they may be left with nothing and start stealing, and eventually, this mentality becomes widespread and then everyone is just stealing from one another and still thinking "it won't happen to me" and then it does and then somehow the perpatrator of the original crime somehow feels like a victim because it's someone else that did it to them but that someone else was probably stolen from too... and the cycle continues.

Being a good person is hard, and only getting harder. If only these people would use their intelligence to do 'good', but that requires time and patience and hard work, not a quick opportunity to steal something.

This "everyone manipulates" is not being evaluated on a relative scale. It's a "kill or be killed" mentality because, and especially when, one of the manipulators doesn't even know what they want... only more... of everything. It doesn't stop at the conversation or the sex or the sperm or the money, they won't stop until the other person is feking dead (stolen soul).

That means the perpetrator has no standards and boundaries of their own. They have no honor, no ethos, they are just scavengers and opportunists with a bottomless pit that will never be satiated.

These are usually people that have destroyed their own soul. For a lot of women, this is the cock carousel. It destroys a woman's ability to bond with a man. This is why other women encourage it.

They know that women are built to observe and adapt to a man by reading their emotions(see note) but after a woman has lost her ability to bond with a man and provide GOOD things to him, she becomes jealous and selfish and therefore only manifests BAD things for him (or withholds good things like sex, as leverage).

This turns them into raving hungry monsters looking for more prey after the last one was used up. Then, because they are mothers, it propagates down her line and there is no stopping it, especially after she gets rid of the only source of justice and empathy in the house, namely, the father.

There is nothing wrong with manipulation, sure, but some manipulation is wrong. Understand?

(side note: they only have the ability to read the simple emotions; anger; sadness; happiness. They apparently think they are the only sex capable of doing this btw, which is retarded.

More complicated emotions of adults like 'puzzled' are usually perceived as anger, for example, because they are built to be sensitive to the emotions of an infant; not an adult. This results in a woman shit-testing until she gets to one of the root emotions and not even realizing that the probing probably resulted in the anger but now he's angry nonetheless so she can proceed from there.)

ReluctantSlimeball · 2018-01-30T23:45:26+00:00

Neither the nice guy nor Chad is manipulative.

Manipulation in every definition refers to success, skill and cleverness. This rules tug nice guy out.

Chad is attractive precisely because he lacks any desire to manipulate. He doesn’t give two fucks what girls think of him and this is his biggest asset.

Though I do agree that nice guys out of confusion, misinformation and lack of knowledge end up attempting courtship like a woman.

If you’re hot you’ll encounter an abundance of nice girls.

[deleted] · 2018-01-31T02:00:53+00:00

"manipulation" doesn't exist, for the very fact is that even neuroscientists don't fully understand how the brain works, let alone laymen

ILoveBeingPostWall · 2018-01-29T01:48:32+00:00

I see people complaining about thieves, as if that's a bad thing. Or people who lie to you and take your money, and somehow that's bad. You're wrong. Stealing isn't good or bad, it's just the default inescapable human social behavior...

No it's not. Have you ever lived/traveled in a place with a bunch of thieves? It sucks. My guess is that you live in middle class America, or comparable Canada, where some people steal but generally you can leave a bike in the yard or your bag on a table at Starbucks and reasonably expect it to be there when you return in a few minutes. And if the bag or bike was stolen, you'd be outraged. It's not acceptable behavior here. Some people do that. But generally we don't like those people. We think they're trash.

Likewise, there are places in the world where constant manipulation is not acceptable. My guess, based on your writing, is that you live in one of them. That's why you think you're so edgy - because what you're saying is going against the way you were raised. And yet, you're one of the people who, despite your upbringing, thinks manipulation ok. So go around, manipulate people when they don't expect it, but don't be surprised when people call you trash. Because you are trash. You were likely raised better, you're going against social norms and hurting other people. Whatever. People will eventually recognize it and stop trusting/liking you.

Want to know why everyone complains about modern dating? Guys like your sir Chad, and the nice guy you described, and their female equivalents. These people are especially horrific when paired with people who hold themselves to a different standard. For example, me, when I dated a red pill dude. I went into the relationship with a (in my mind, STILL REASONABLE) expectation that if you were attracted to someone and wanted to date them, you would have some semblance of concern for that person's well-being. I never would have guessed in a million years that homeboy came into it going "I've got to manipulate the shit out of this girl."

Well, joke's on him. Just as he was getting ready to propose, I left his ass.

Remember this post when you get your ass handed to you by some decent girl who finally sees through you.

concacanca · 2018-01-28T19:41:55+00:00

Buying flowers, chocolate, dinner. Writing love letters. Giving compliments.

All manipulation.

The difference is that women claim to like certain types (and they do if you already check the other boxes) but respond to others and so the guys who were late to the party feel cheated for the effort they put on for the same or lesser reward (for lack of a better word)

Edit: down votes mean I win right?

Title	There is nothing wrong with manipulation
Author	BearSaint
Upvotes	3
Comments	139
Date	January 28, 2018 7:07 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/7tma3b/there_is_nothing_wrong_with_manipulation/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/there-is-nothing-wrong-with-manipulation.263803 https://theredarchive.com/post/263803

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