CMV: The friends-first approach to dating and sex is terrible for both men and women.

betterdeadthanbeta · 2016-09-12T23:32:12+00:00

I disagree with this. If you're confident in your physical attractiveness and game, it's pretty easy to leverage a friendship into more.

Unattractive guys get friendzoned because they're unattractive. A gal who is "just friends" with Chad will sleep with him when she breaks up with Billy Beta. (I've gotten a few girlfriends and flings this way. Timing is often crucial) However, a gal who is just friends with Billy Beta will not sleep with him when she breaks up with Chad.

The key is to not completely asexualize/castrate yourselves which is something subtle and hence, something the spergs and betas flocking to TRP have problems with.

You can communicate in some subtle ways that, even if she's taken or is "just looking for fun & friends right now teehee" like most flakey modern bimbos are, that you're down for more if the opportunity should arise. A little flirting, eye contact and plausibly deniable kino here and there, a little electricity. Let her ruminate on it and if she's hip to the idea she'll start sending IoIs back. Bam. There's your greenlight.

This why dudes jealous of their wives/gfs having male friends are all correct, btw.

gleaming-the-cubicle · 2016-09-12T22:21:56+00:00

If I asked someone out and they told me they wanted to get to know me better before accepting a date? I'd hang out as friends. If they aren't interesting enough to be friends with, there's no way a relationship would work. Or maybe you find out it's only a physical attraction and you don't like their personality. Then you dodged a bullet! If I'm just looking to bone, we want different things, and it also wouldn't work.

Most of my LTRs have been romantic from jump street, but I have dated ladies I was friends with first. And I've definitely seen it work with other people.

ozymandias271 · 2016-09-13T01:43:15+00:00

Friends first is a great strategy if you legitimately want to be friends with the person. Befriending someone in the hopes you will get to date them sucks. Befriending someone and thinking "hey, they're attractive, it would be cool if we got to hook up" is an excellent strategy that leads to many hookups and many excellent friendships.

Of course, having this sort of outcome-independent attitude is much easier if you have an abundance mindset, and much harder if you don't implicitly expect that you'll be able to find a committed romantic partner whenever you want one. But as in so much in dating to those who have much more will be given.

[deleted] · 2016-09-12T22:32:47+00:00

it's probably important to distinguish between sex and dating. are we talking for ONS or casual/FWB, or actually looking for a partner? this distinction will definitely change answers.

i'm going to respond assuming we're talking about dating in hopes of an LTR.

For men, treating a girl like a friend, and doing friendly things for her, without communicating your attraction to her initially will project a lack of confidence. Women expect or appreciate men who have no problem being upfront and bold about their intentions. Hiding behind the friendship will make the guy seem too safe and predictable.

assuming this is true and more subtle signals are no good (which i do not agree with)... this seems like a great way to weed out someone who won't stick around or isn't looking for what you're looking for.

For women, having the strategy of establishing friendship with a guy first, before any dating or non-platonic interaction is also bad, because it can cause the man to feel disinterested, or feel like he is in the friend zone. When guys feel like they are in the friend zone, they believe the woman isn't attracted to them.

same as above; if i'm trying to actually have a connection with someone and have something longer than one night with them, this seems like a great way to make sure they'd even be down for that, or patient enough (on top of giving myself a chance to get to know him more).

my husband and i were friends first and dated slowly. he wasn't super bold or aggressive, though; just enough to let me know he was interested in more than just friendship. it may not work for everyone depending on their style/goals but calling it a terrible strategy isn't fair or accurate.

[deleted] · 2016-09-12T22:47:30+00:00

I think you're right. Best to start out in the way that you mean to continue.

For men, treating a girl like a friend, and doing friendly things for her, without communicating your attraction to her initially will project a lack of confidence.

Unsure on this one. If I'm already physically attracted to the guy (at first sight), him doing friendly things for me/with me would only make me far more attracted. That is how my SO and me started out. I didn't see it as a lack of confidence in the slightest. I saw it as him being a fantastic guy (and he's remained the same, and I've remained totally attracted).

If I'm not already physically attracted, a man doing friendly things wouldn't sway me.

Anecdotes aside, I still suspect that you're right in general. Except (and this is a big except) if a man tries the PUA/red pill bag of tricks of negging, flirting with other women, touching me, trying to escalate... I am immediately turned off. Because I think he's a player.

OfSpock · 2016-09-13T00:36:02+00:00

Being friends first = code for dating for a while without having sex. Made necessary by the whole 'have sex on the third date' thing that has become popular.

Now you have two choices, break up with guys on the second date or date without calling it dating.

Try not to get it confused with 'let's just be friends' which is an entirely different thing.

[deleted] · 2016-09-12T23:35:03+00:00

[permanently deleted]

[deleted] · 2016-09-12T23:30:54+00:00

It all depends on the way you do it.

Hiding behind friendship will make the guy seem too safe and predictable.

Agreed, but it's the hiding part that is the problem, not the friendship part.

Princeso_Bubblegum · 2016-09-12T23:47:59+00:00

Hey, if it doesn't work, you at least have a friend. Having friends is never a bad thing. This isn't a zero sum strategy.

[deleted] · 2016-09-13T00:08:40+00:00

If she wants to bone you, being kind/decent isn't going to kill that. Being supplicating could, if she only kinda wants to bone you. But if she REEEAAALLY wants to bone you, it probably doesn't matter too much.

For women, having the strategy of establishing friendship with a guy first, before any dating or non-platonic interaction is also bad, because it can cause the man to feel disinterested

I don't agree. Very little, if anything, can put dudes off once they're interested.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-09-13T06:00:15+00:00

What is this "things friends do for her"? My friends never, did things "for" me, we all just hung out and partied

rulenumber303 · 2016-09-13T10:40:25+00:00

Friends before dating is an excellent way for an attractive young woman to avoid having sex with players, TRPers and other assorted time wasters. If a few of the less resilient suitors don't make it through the process who cares, it isn't like a cautious young woman needs to fuck every guy with a short attention span she can find.

Taylor1391 · 2016-09-13T01:47:36+00:00

I don't know how much stock you put in anecdotal evidence, but my husband and I were friends for a year and a half before we started dating. We're married now so obviously it went well.

despisedlove2 · 2016-09-13T03:39:15+00:00

It is a misguided strategy.

If you are interested in someone as a business partner, you don't go to them as a salesman pretending to sell insurance policies.

raginghamster · 2016-09-13T05:45:13+00:00

Here's my view- it doesn't really matter, assuming exclusivity isn't assumed on the part of the 'friend'.

For example if I'm befriended by a girl and she wants to 'date' for a while before she's 'comfortable' with physical intimacy, and she has LTR potential, then I'm willing to spend some time to get to know her. (Subjective- some guys just aren't looking to 'waste' time on a friendship stage before the intimate stage. Totally understandable since there are plenty of girls out there willing to bypass friendship stage- if the goal is only sex then being friends first is not an optimal strategy)

What I won't do is agree to exclusivity, because as far as I'm concerned there is no (romantic) 'relationship' without physical intimacy. If a girl want to be 'friends' but expects emotional monogamy in a romantic context, then that's just called a bad friend.

I don't offer exclusivity for friendships. As long as no one demands exclusivity during a friendship disguised as 'dating', there isn't a problem.

[deleted] · 2016-09-13T08:05:00+00:00

People should go all out and make it quite clear from the start that they're sexually interested in the other person. If they get rejected they can move on with their lives and go find someone else instead of hovering inside the friendzone forever

ppdthrowawai · 2016-09-13T11:12:12+00:00

Its not that it doesn't work its just completely inefficient. Time is a much more valuable commodity then money is. You are spending your most valuable asset in very large quantities to pain something that you can do for much much less.

questioningwoman · 2016-09-12T22:11:01+00:00

Who cares what the man believes though? It's the best way to get guys. It's more effective than sitting around waiting for people and there's less of a chance of rejection if you go the ultra direct route. It's a more likely way to secure commitment.

AutoModerator · 2016-09-12T22:08:16+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair, just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[deleted] · 2016-09-12T22:33:27+00:00

For women, having the strategy of establishing friendship with a guy first, before any dating or non-platonic interaction is also bad, because it can cause the man to feel disinterested, or feel like he is in the friend zone. When guys feel like they are in the friend zone, they believe the woman isn't attracted to them.

Until she indicates attraction, in which case they won't be put off at all by the woman's feminine strategy.

FairlyNaive · 2016-09-12T22:35:57+00:00

man to feel disinterested, or feel like he is in the friend zone.

And?

wont_tell_i_refuse · 2016-09-12T23:20:09+00:00

Does anyone actually do this? I'm pretty sure knowledge of "the friendzone" is pretty widespread even among high school boys.

TW_CountryMusic · 2016-09-12T23:45:28+00:00

Yeah I agree that you should show sexual intent as soon as you're sexually interested, but I'm starting to think that waiting for longer to have sex with them is better. I feel like guys are in too much of a rush to get their dicks in. I get the impression that sex would be better after weeks/months of flirting as acquaintances or 'kind of friends'. I'm gonna experiment with this.

[deleted] · 2016-09-13T01:05:56+00:00

i just want a female friend at this point

Dopeska · 2016-09-13T04:15:05+00:00

No youre right, attraction is first, the rest follows

anitapk · 2016-09-13T11:13:36+00:00

I like guys regardless of whether they start a friendship or an acquaintance. Don't be a doormat, be a good acquaintance.

Getting friends doesn't mean doing all sorts of shit for someone. It does require time though so I don't see it as a viable solution as it takes too much time.

MisgenderedCactus · 2016-09-25T03:06:09+00:00

Disagree. Though I can appreciate the physical attractiveness of a man or woman just by looking at them, it takes a strong emotional connection (aka friendship) for me to see someone in a sexual light. Though I didn't pursue them for other reasons, I'd become extremely attracted to all my guy friends and 2 of my gal friends in high school because of this, and my current/only lover started off as my best friend. If he was just some random guy, I wouldn't have been interested at all because I knew nothing about him.

Title	CMV: The friends-first approach to dating and sex is terrible for both men and women.
Author	gavinok
Upvotes	16
Comments	157
Date	September 12, 2016 10:08 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/52h0fy/cmv_the_friendsfirst_approach_to_dating_and_sex/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-the-friends-first-approach-to-dating-and-sex.273044 https://theredarchive.com/post/273044

Comments