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Feminist friends have been passing this one around facebook. Thought you guys may like it.

fleshhook

November 20, 2014

678 upvotes

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11410_619763808133780_1897006291054902895_n.jpg?oh=5b1e5dac8abf84edcd797a06e4541cda&oe=54D41FAC&__gda__=1427134929_bf1ba08e712a5e0cbe3ae1bba0665490

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Title	Feminist friends have been passing this one around facebook. Thought you guys may like it.
Author	fleshhook
Upvotes	678
Comments	100
Date	November 20, 2014 11:37 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2mv9wu/feminist_friends_have_been_passing_this_one/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminist-friends-have-been-passing-this-one-around.993166 https://theredarchive.com/post/993166

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[–]ManRAh 41 points42 points43 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

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Equity and gender feminism:

Equity feminism and gender feminism are two kinds of feminism, first defined by scholar Christina Hoff Sommers in her 1994 book Who Stole Feminism?. She describes equity feminism as having the ideological objective of equal legal rights for men and women and gender feminism as having the objective of counteracting gender-based discrimination and patriarchic social structures in everyday social and cultural practice. Sommers is herself a strong advocate of what she calls equity feminism, and opposed to what she calls gender feminism.

^Interesting: ^Who ^Stole ^Feminism? ^| ^Women ⁱⁿ ^conservatism ⁱⁿ ^the ^United ^States ^| ^Separatist ^feminism ^| ^Christina ^Hoff ^Sommers

^Parent ^commenter ^can ^toggle ^NSFW ^or ^delete^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| ^FAQs ^| ^Mods ^| ^Magic ^Words

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The problem is the disconnect between the "feminist people", who really want equality, and "feminist leadership" who want power.

"Feminist people" I call the "general population". The "you and me" kind of girls/guys. They don't study gender issues at the university, they have regular jobs and take part in the real world. They are people who call themselves feminist because they believe discrimination is wrong, but also take responsibility for themselves. They think that "getting ongoing verbal consent for every stage of sex" is a buzz-kill (for them! Not just the guy) and will say so clearly. You know, the kind of people you actually meet in the real world. People too busy to be victims.

the "feminist leadership" on the other hand are those who do study gender at the university. Who think almost any sexual interaction with a guy is rape (or at least is rape if the guy isn't a mind reader). All they do it be victims - either write about it online or protest about it or go to meetings about it, that's their entire being. You very seldom actually meet one of these (unless you are in the "wrong social group").

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[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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Sure. And just like any other group in which the rank and file bought a line of shit from the leadership, those rank and file feminists will not be spared the consequences of the actions they supported.

Take the obvious, extreme example of the Nazis, and Nuremburg. Sur, rank and file Nazis probably didn't have a murderous rage against the Jews, they just internalized the propaganda of the leadership, and viewed Jews as subhuman to some degree...just enough of a degree to carry out some pretty questionable orders.

Should the people who rounded up the Jews and put them on the boxcar at gunpoint escape punishment, because they wre only following orders? I mean, it's not like they actually killed the Jews involved, they just helped the process along.

In the exact same way Nazis of old are every bit as responsible for atrocity as their leadership was, modern feminists are equally culpable for their own leadership's actions.

Far too many feminists try to NAWALT their way out of the consequences of their (in)actions. Fuck that. Every last one of them needs to fry in the same pan their leadership does. After all, the 'moderates' were more than willing to take the goodies at men's expense. That they didn't personally make it happen is completely irrelevant.

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Right. But the basis for what politically correct institutions consider "feminism" is a lot less radical in most places than what people here consider it to be. And while feminists aren't put in the position to constantly defend their ideas against radical perceptions, we are.

MRAs already suffer from radical perception, so for this sub to be relentlessly attacking an ideology which is perceived to be reasonable, comments in this sub just reinforce that radical perception and further harm the men's rights cause.

We should operate as "bigger people" and advocate for reasonable feminism under the greater cause of egalitarianism instead of pettily putting down the shit which is already marginalized and perceived as radical.

Am I making sense? I see a lot of suggestions here which would objectively improve quality of life for men who need it, but they aren't thought out in a way which doesn't directly harm women as a result. For instance the paper abortion concept.

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I'm really frustrated by the tactic of comparing it to slutwalks that everyone has been taking. By all means, I think everyone needs to chill about Matt's awesome shirt, and by all means, I think slutwalks are rooted in fucked-up assumptions and lunacy, so don't mistake my intentions ... but the argument is just not logical. There is no comparison to draw between the statements "I'm making a point about dressing revealingly because I have a thought matrix that says everyone wants to make me a victim" and the "I'm making a point about how a shirt that shows sexually interesting imagery of women shouldn't be inherently offensive". They're just not parallel. Yes, on a zoomed-out level there's a "Don't pick on people about their clothes, in general" commonality, but that's where it ends and it's not fundamentally a useful thing to work with here.

[–]kaolbrec 16 points17 points18 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

See, I don't disagree with you, but I don't think "female nudity is empowering" is inherently the implied rhetoric of slutwalks and the like. I think some feminists/women/supporters see it that way, but I think many just see it as "female nudity should not excite response, and we're using it to make a point". I could be wrong about how the majority of feminists represent their point -- after all, it's a really poorly-defined movement with a lot of mutually exclusive parts in it, so it's totally possible -- but I still don't think the parallel stands. There's also a difference in agency/initiative here -- women are allowed to sexualize/nude-ify themselves, but men aren't allowed to sexualize/nude-ify fictitious drawn women without being automatically considered invasive to real, live women. There is a fundamental difference between the points slutwalks try to make and the points being objected to about the shirt.

[–]slideforlife 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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That's interesting, you're right that there is a commonality in the essential failure in logic itself. The assumption "I believe society responds wrongly to me sexualizing/exposing myself" is based in a similar mistaken victim culture viewpoint as the assumption "I believe this person's shirt depicting sexually noticeable women represents a harmful or offensive attitude toward me/all women". However, that just proves that we're talking about the same loonies behind both issues. Other than that, I really don't see strong parallels. At the end of the way, radfems are mistaken for believing that it matters who exposes tits, and it's a double standard in a way, but this isn't how I usually see people making this argument ... people are just generally going about saying "You don't want to get reacted to based on what you wear? Don't react to other people based on what they wear!" which I think accidentally misses and passes the objections of the radfems in the air instead of defending against them.

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