Important question: how is guy supposed to be like to be considered GOOD ENOUGH to date?

Melificarum · 2021-09-22T13:39:20+00:00

These ideas have wormed into your brain and have become your reality because all you do it sit on the internet and read blackpill/redpill propaganda. The real world is not like that. Just go out to a restaurant or a park or something and look at all the couples around you. You will see overweight men, short men, awkward men, all kinds of men that are in relationships with women. How do these men get dates or get married if women only go for tall, muscled, alphas?

Women are people just like men with different interests and tastes. You don't have to be perfect. Women aren't perfect either. You need to GET OUT. Join a club or something. Volunteer. Talk to people. It may not work out and you might feel insecure but the more people you talk to, the better you will get at it. Sitting holed up by your computer is a self fulfilling prophecy. You will become more and more bitter, and you definely will not meet girls.

FraidyDogBrowse · 2021-09-22T16:54:25+00:00

The thing is women aren't a monolith. Different people will have different requirements.

There is a base standard - basically not having "red flags". But the base standard differs by age and also likely by culture. You're asking a question that does not have a single simple answer.

So with the caveat YMMV here's what I considered the base standard when I was early 20s:

Mental Illness Managed: you can be mentally ill, just be working on it. In therapy or on meds if needed. If you struggle with mental illness that's ok. But if unmanaged mental illness causes you to be a bad partner (emotionally unavailable, for instance, or outbursts of anger, or drug use) then it kind of makes you undatable. Trust me, I was there. What counts as unacceptable will differ for different girls, of course. But a good rule of thumb is, if you're mentally ill, be actively working on it. Be in therapy.
Making Progress: If you're early 20s you don't necessarily need to have your own place and car but it helps a lot. If you're not in school, you should have a job. Your own place is a big plus bc you won't have to deal with the family if you try to being girls home. If you're in college the car doesn't matter as much. But if you're not in school car = being able to go places for dates. A girl might be nervous if she has a car and you don't. Being your partner's designated driver can actually be tough sometimes. If you can't afford a car that's ok but you should have a driver's license. If you don't have a job or are in school, start working on a plan - this isn't even about dating, you'll need one anyway.
Look Good: You don't need to be 20 feet tall or totally ripped. But your hair (including facial hair) should be neat and clean, YOU should be clean, and you should try to dress in a way that flatters your body. Make sure you smell ok, use a good deodorant, etc. If you can get a little more physically fit it helps but chubby guys get dates too, skinny guys get dates too. Effort in your appearance is key here.
Emotional Reciprocity: this is tied in to mental health. To date you should be well enough to be able to care about your date's feelings. To be able to pay attention to them and their feelings. And to be able to respond with empathy. You should be able to communicate. You should be open minded, try to see things from other's perspective, and learn and understand. And honestly YOU are owed the same. The simplest way to phrase this one is "Don't be an asshole."

Now, I'm a little worried from your past comments ITT that you'll say "so I do have to be perfect." What I just listed is NOT perfection. It's basic wellness. And it IS something you can achieve if you're mentally ill. Or Autistic. Both of those things might make it harder, but hey, life is hard. I'm chronically mentally ill, possibly ASD (ASD traits) and I have worked hard to achieve a lot of the above.

Last thing to note, if your mental health or disability makes some of the basic standard unattainable, or unattainable right now, that's ok. It WILL make dating harder but it's not impossible. There are disabled people who don't have all of the above who still live good lives and find love. There are nondisabled people who don't have all of the above and they find dates.

lilycamilly · 2021-09-22T14:33:37+00:00

Ask yourself the question, "If I were a woman, would I date ME?"

I'm a single woman getting back into dating after ending a long-term relationship. When I think about who I'd want to date (not necessarily what I want in a LIFE PARTNER, but a casual dating experience), the bare minimum is: someone who is fun to hang out with, our senses of humor match, has a job + car because of COURSE I don't want to have to pay for everything for him and shuttle him around, decently attractive (I'm not asking for much here- height is utterly unimportant to me (as I am 6'2" and therefore can't afford to be picky), decently healthy (he by no means has to be ripped or in the gym 24/7, just takes care of himself and know how to eat well (also, I'm a bit of a chubby chaser)), doesn't dress like a middle schooler and has a flattering haircut). The most important thing by far with any kind of relationship is that we treat each other well; no frivolous fighting, no weird jealousy, good communication, being genuinely FRIENDS with each other.

These things are kinda bare minimum requirements, and I personally don't think they're anywhere NEAR unattainable for men. Why do I think that? Because I already do them. I'm 24, just started grad school, have a car, have my own apartment, take care of my body and my health by eating well and walking a lot, and don't have a toxic personality. I'm nowhere near perfect; I have depression and anxiety, I have some belly fat and my breasts are saggy, I'm living on a very tight student budget, and I'm not docile and subservient like what RP men expect (luckily for me, I don't want them to want me anyway).

You don't have to be perfect to be datable, trust me. Just have your shit together. That's a versatile phrase here. If you have mental illness, see a therapist. If you don't have a car or if you still live with your parents, look for a job and start saving. If you're in horrible shape and don't take care of your body, start taking daily walks and start eating better. Don't have any hobbies? Maybe join a club, or an online community, or just pick up something like drawing or sewing or cooking or ANYTHING. Also, women today generally DO NOT want stoic men. There is nothing more boring than that; we want men who make us laugh and who we can have good conversation with. You don't need to be jacked, or rich, or any of that Dan Bilzarian shit, just be a good person with your shit together.

Would you want to date a woman who is in terrible shape, with no car or money of her own, with no hobbies or interests, who still lives at home with mom & dad, riddled with mental illness and toxic tendencies? I bet not. Woman or man or nonbinary, nobody wants those qualities in a partner. Why would anyone want someone who will drag them down? As long as you get on track to break out of those things, you're on a good path.

Also, confidence. It will take you a long time to build it up, lord knows it took me WAY long to truly be confident in myself, but if you're working towards bettering yourself, no matter how long it takes or how small the steps are, you can be proud that you're making positive changes in your life, and you should celebrate that and yourself.

RP men assume all women are shallow and selfish, and if you use dating tactics to play on that, you'll only attract shallow and selfish women. But there are tons of women who are just looking for a genuine connection with someone to be a life partner to them. Look for THOSE women. You can find them anywhere; online, at school, working everyday jobs, at fucking Gamestop or at your local D&D sessions.

I'm gonna end my rant here but I have plenty more opinions on this if you're interested.

vcreativ · 2021-09-22T15:41:58+00:00

People say you need to be BEST VERSION OF YOURSELF.

Well yes, they say that. But it holds no value. It's more of a throwaway line. I wouldn't even say it's useful, because it adds pressure without being any sort of specific. It's a lazy thing to say, basically.

Usually it's implied that you need muscles, car, flat, awesome hobbies, tall height, no anxiety, no mental illnesses, some kind of stoic perfect successful alpha male.

Is your expectation to have all these things in your early 20s? Because that would be a little skewed time-wise. The 20s (in my mind) are all about setting up your adult life (which is way longer) and finishing base-line development (and you know, not messing it up).

So great, you got a list of things you'd like to achieve, now go do them. I am yet to meet someone in their 20s that genuinely had their life figured out, let alone early 20s.

Should've done better...

I think this is the real issue, you appear to be self-deprecating. And that's also the answer to your question. You're good enough to others when you're good enough for yourself.

it will take me a looooong time to get those qualities/material/physical things

Yes, yes it will. In fact it takes so long that you'll necessarily have to prioritise eventually. It's just not so easy to tell that lots of people on instagram prioritise their selfies over mental health. That's the picture they don't post.

Coollogin · 2021-09-22T15:49:45+00:00

Are you fun? Are you interesting? Is spending time with you pleasant?

Graineon · 2021-09-22T18:36:27+00:00

How people see you is a reflection of how you see yourself. Our judgments are like little projectors that go out and find justification in outside events. They will always find evidence. Our mind can weave meaning out of nothing, and the power of thought always makes it feel very real to us in the moment.

The good thing about thought is that it can change in the blink of an eye. Have you ever noticed that you don't always believe this about yourself? I bet sometimes you feel pretty good about yourself - and sometimes you don't. It's only to do with the kind of thinking you're giving in your energy to in the moment. What we experience as outside circumstances is actually thoughts in-the-moment appearing outside is. It's like a great illusion. We think life happens from the outside to us, but in reality it's generated from within, through thought, projected outside.

In terms of friendship. The whole point of friendship is the unconditionality of it. Conditional friendship isn't friendship. Friends are like family. No matter what dumb shit you do you're always worthy of their love. You're worthy because you are you and for no other reason.

The cutoff is wherever you set it. You won't be able to receive love where you have deemed yourself unworthy. If I think I'm too short to be accepted by somebody, if somebody gives me some attention or care, or finds me interesting or attractive, I won't even be able to notice. I'll think they're just looking at something behind me, or perhaps have me confused for someone else. I'll be incapable of acknowledging it.

Never underestimate the power of thought. It's all you. Everything that seems to be circumstance is thought. It's all a big dream. Don't take hurtful thoughts seriously. Look at it like this... what does a tranquil mind feel like? You don't have to think positively. The absence of the negative is already positive. Our default is wellness. Our default is to live in a nice, peaceful, content feeling. We are all looking for a nice feeling. If only you knew that it was already here, just underneath some noisy thinking... and you'd find out how easy it is to cruise through life. Just let all this settle down and you'll find home again.

xvszero · 2021-09-22T20:08:02+00:00

Usually it's implied that you need muscles, car, flat, awesome hobbies, tall height, no anxiety, no mental illnesses, some kind of stoic perfect successful alpha male.

LOL the only one of those I had when I met my wife was height, and trust me, being 6'4 and 130ish pounds just makes people make fun of you for being a pencil neck geek more than anything else. I guess I had some hobbies too but mostly nerd shit. And I was 30 so I had no real excuse, nowadays no one really even expects anyone in their early 20s to have their lives sorted out.

The truth is, there is no big secret to being able to date. You meet individuals, and you either click, or you don't. Some people will find it easier to click than others for sure. But that doesn't mean you can't date.

vial_of_music · 2021-09-23T04:27:38+00:00

You need to fix your poor self esteem issues before anything else.

Therapy.

Brilliant_Usual_743 · 2021-09-22T21:58:13+00:00

First off, you're good enough to date. We all have deep-rooted issues and believing you're only ready/worthy of being dated with once you figure yourself out and become that guy you just described is probably the worst advice I've been hearing recently.

Most of us just look for a man who's kind, giving, honest and comfortable in who he is and his pains. We don't really want a man we can't relate to on a human experience level for long-term relationships. We want to see the anger, the frustration, the tears. We just want you to be ok with it (or at least work towards that), be at peace with being human and flawed. That type of strength is amazing. A man at peace with who he is at his core is the ultimate turn-on. That consequently allows you to be at peace with who we are which is the emotional security we long for. That allows you to see us, to hear us. We want to be seen so badly... to feel safe under your gaze, like hey "I really see you and when I touch you now I feel how your body suddenly got stiff and you are beautiful still when you're sad or down like this. Please express yourself. Please be yourself with me because I'm fully myself with you too. It's safe. I won't let you go."

Long story short, accept yourself as deeply flawed -> that enables you accept us as deeply flawed and when that happens there's where genuine intimacy blossoms from. We're just as lost as some of you guys, some of us wanting fu*k boys or emotionally unavailable men because our fathers/lack thereof hurt us and we haven't yet healed, some of us only looking for genuine and emotionally available men, others wanting introverts, others extroverts, others artists, others geeks. Just cut yourself some slack and embrace your shortcomings, so that you can do that too with us.

RandomDude5325 · 2021-09-22T14:15:55+00:00

There's no line, where if you pass it you are good enough and if you don't then no one want you. Some ugly asshole can have a girlfriend. And a model can't even if nothing is wrong with him ( highly improbable but still possible ) . Sure having a nice body, being tall ect will make others more attracted to you. The physical aspect is only a part of the selection. You don't need to be first or an "alpha male" to be selected. Generally the other just need to be somewhat attracted to you. It pass by good hygiene ect You are generally disqualified by your defaults ( bad smell, needy, ect ) begin to eliminate them or make them tolerable. The other part is reducing friction and making the other spend a good time with you. Reduce friction by making yourself available, do not be picky or not to much, carry a part of the conversation. Reduce the effort that the other person have to make to speak, taking you on a date. You also don't have to compete with everyone, pick a niche, and aim to be in the top 20% of people in this niche. What kind of girls are you attracted to ? What kind of men are they attracted to ? Which quality is important ? And work on it. Some niches are more competitive than others. Make a choice and work on it. It's way more realistic and more applicable in life. Than wanting to have a body of bodybuilder, the salary of a CEO, traveling every week, with awesome hobby ect Tldr the body is just here to attract or at least don't making them leave, your personality is here to make them stay.

azucarleta · 2021-09-22T15:27:16+00:00

Nah dude, you can also just be a mushroom in your house--with other mushroom people. The "best verison of your self" discourse can be helpful or harmful, it's really how it hits you and tweaks your insecurities. It's the right advice for some people, and it just stokes insecurity and feelings of inadequacy in others.

And here's the thing: I've put hundreds of hours into weight training but I am still and probably always will be a skinny wimp (I have eating issues, so I know the physical root of it). My point being, even if you follow the recipe, you may not come out the other end society's ideal Chad.

You're already good enough to make friends and date potential partners. You. Are. ALREADY. Good Enough, ok?

Snoo_90831 · 2021-09-22T19:20:11+00:00

I know this may come off as glib or like I’m spouting platitudes, but I truly mean this. When YOU feel dateable, I guarantee there will be others out there who will feel the same. As long as you are going around telling yourself “I’m not dateable”, other people pick up on that AND it impacts your behaviors, making dating so much less likely. I agree with all the “work on yourself” and “be the person you want to date”, but I don’t think you have to have all that sorted first.

I don’t expect perfection out of a date, but I do find it very attractive when someone knows what their struggles are and are already making steps to address them. That kind of introspection and humility is attractive. Get to the place where you believe you are “good enough” and go out there and find someone! (And try to not define “good enough” by what extreme ideologies tell you)

Brilliant_Usual_743 · 2021-09-22T21:58:54+00:00

First off, you're good enough to date. We all have deep-rooted issues and believing you're only ready/worthy of being dated with once you figure yourself out and become that guy you just described is probably the worst advice I've been hearing recently.

Most of us just look for a man who's kind, giving, honest and comfortable in who he is and his pains. We don't really want a man we can't relate to on a human experience level for long-term relationships. We want to see the anger, the frustration, the tears. We just want you to be ok with it (or at least work towards that), be at peace with being human and flawed. That type of strength is amazing. A man at peace with who he is at his core is the ultimate turn-on. That consequently allows you to be at peace with who we are which is the emotional security we long for. That allows you to see us, to hear us. We want to be seen so badly... to feel safe under your gaze, like hey "I really see you and when I touch you now I feel how your body suddenly got stiff and you are beautiful still when you're sad or down like this. Please express yourself. Please be yourself with me because I'm fully myself with you too. It's safe. I won't let you go."

Long story short, accept yourself as deeply flawed -> that enables you accept us as deeply flawed and when that happens there's where genuine intimacy blossoms from. We're just as lost as some of you guys, some of us wanting fu*k boys or emotionally unavailable men because our fathers/lack thereof hurt us and we haven't yet healed, some of us only looking for genuine and emotionally available men, others wanting introverts, others extroverts, others artists, others geeks. Just cut yourself some slack and embrace your shortcomings, so that you can do that too with us.

Time_Forever26 · 2021-09-22T22:32:39+00:00

good social skills and not be creepy that is the bare minimum

RabbitNRaccoon · 2021-09-22T15:40:04+00:00

You need a good physique. Not for women. For you. For your health and it will give you confidence.

You also need self respect, and healthy boundaries.

Don't accept toxic people, or toxic behavior in your life. Shut that shit down immediately and remove the people to avoid future problems.

And of course, work on getting your money. Always need money. Again, this makes you financially stable but also confident.

Also, stop giving attention away for free. I see so many men who acknowledge women too much. Be dryly cordial to women so they can't use you as an ego boost or falsely get your hopes up.

Look for a nice, normal girl. She will likely be average looking, average body, and not into partying/social media and will have her own interests and hobbies.

Everyone is all about the "excitement" relationship. But a good relationahip is a quiet boring one. The world is already u predictable enough..

WatsonDynamite · 2021-09-22T13:23:33+00:00

[permanently deleted]

JimBeamAndCoke2016 · 2021-09-23T10:24:59+00:00

Unfortunately facial attractiveness is the key to being good enough for women. All the confidence, fitness, grooming etc does help, bit only as an enhancement to good looks.

As mentioned in other comments, you do see men of all types in relationships, but there's two things to consider here. Firstly is that in most couples you see, the man is more attractive than the woman. If the man is a 5 or 6/10, then the woman will be 4 or 5. At best, the couple will be looks matched, but the couples where the woman is more attractive is a rarity, and nowhere near as common as people will have you believe.

Secondly, most women in these relationships are there because they settled, not because of physical attraction. The strange thing is that men will admit to settling, and will make the best of it. Women seem to be in denial about settling, and harbour a lot of resentment over it. Go to the deadbedrooms sub, for examples of the results of settling relationships.

irrelevant-Latino · 2021-09-22T14:00:43+00:00

Let's go brothel together

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honey-bundy-88 · 2021-09-22T22:12:31+00:00

You’ve been brainwashed into believing that there is some universal formula that will automatically make you “good enough” for everyone. Newsflash, there isn’t one. Being your best self just means being the type of person that YOU would want to be. Don’t want to be in the gym 25/8? Then don’t. Want to be more active in your daily life? Then set a goal and stick to it. Interested in intramural sports? Then try out. What type of man do you admire? Who are your icons? Your #goals, the men you’d like to be like some day. If the only thing you can say you admire about these men is their ability to pull “bad bitches” then you’ve got your priorities wrong. Have a life of your own that places the things you value at the forefront.

When a woman is listing her ideal guy then that’s HER ideal guy. Yeah you may see some similarities. Women on average like healthy, well adapted people who are financially independent or have plans to be. But there is no top 10% of men we’re secretly all fighting for. Celebrities and athletes are extraneous cases, most people don’t actually think they’ll end up with them. The ones who do usually make it their life’s mission to be in proximity to them by putting their own dreams and ambitions on hold. No one wants that life. Most of us want a partner who shares the same values (hence why you need to know yours) and who embraces the things that make them unique. THAT is sexy. Not some “alpha Chad” with a 90 degree jaw line and .02% body fat who makes an eight figure salary. Please, unplug your computer, get some fresh air and take some time to think about what it is you want to do with your life.

DissonanceBadger · 2021-09-23T05:52:28+00:00

How is guy supposed to be like to be considered GOOD ENOUGH to employ? Usually it's implied that you need a prestigious degree, awesome people skills, intelligent, conscientious, present yourself well, relevant past experience, and basically be a perfect high achieving worker.

Does this makes sense? Absolutely. But in practice, many people who get employed fall short of this standard.

So what's the cutoff point? It's hard to say specifically, but I can give you some pointers.

At 20 years old, nobody expects you to be financially successful, or even have a career. That expectation is reserved to your early 30s. In the early 20s, women pick men more based on their apparent potential, rather than actual success. This means you can get away with not having a car. I know you feel self conscious about it because you see the advantage of having a car, but you can't be expected to have one at this early stage in your life, and many women will roll with it. You also can't be expected to have your own flat. You are somewhat expected to leave your parents' home in your 20s, but a roommate apartment is enough, and so is some crappy low rent studio apartment (although in today's age people leave the nest later and later in life, so you might find women to be more accepting of someone who lives with their parents than they used to, as long as you have the intention to leave at some point).

The cutoff point for height is "higher than she is", except for women who are obsessed about height (who are usually very short, funnily enough, or exceptionally tall).

You don't need muscles. Most women say they don't like muscular bodies. It is advantageous to be strong, but as with height "stronger than she is" is often enough, and unless you're a total bum, you're likely stronger than most women by default. The cutoff point is don't be an out of shape and fat.

Awesome hobbies is a big plus.... for women who also have awesome hobbies. Most women I encounter online are dreadfully boring. They all like "travelling and hanging out with friends". You won't lure them in with your awesome hobbies because they won't be able to relate, having absolutely no awesome hobbies themselves. So the bar here is way lower than you'd think. It's true that awesome hobbies can advertise desirable traits, but it also really depends on the recipient. Here's a funny anecdote about this: I used to have a roommate, and every time he brought a girl over, he tried to impress her with his guitar skills (which he had close to none, by the way). It always went like this:

*Roommate picks up a crappy beaten up acoustic guitar* "Check out what I just learned to play!" *proceeds to play the intro to Smoke On The Water.
Girl: "what's that?"
Roommate: "That's the intro to Smoke On The Water".
Girl: "never heard of it."
*roommate puts down the guitar, because it's the only thing he knew how to play*

...every, single, time.

Generally speaking, mental illness and anxiety are a problem. However, there are many people who have metal issues and still find a partner, and I think that how this works is that the mental illness is revealed after the positive parts of you are revealed, not before, and it's well managed enough that the woman feels like she can coexist peacefully with it (and maybe she also has a high nurturing inclination as well, and sees this as something that can help her feel closer to you by offering support). But also, mental illness and anxiety is something you can work on, so don't let this convince you that you are doomed.

Finally, what do you mean when you say "anxiety"? Do you mean that you find approaching women stressful? That's 100% normal. Maybe it's so stressful that you find yourself avoiding it, and so you assume that those who do approach must be doing so because they feel no anxiety that holds them back, but you'd be wrong. It's stressful for them too. Maybe less stressful, or maybe they know how to handle the stress better, but approaching women is stressful, period.

Ray3369 · 2021-10-10T12:30:33+00:00

Honestly, you don't need any or those thinge to be good enough. Reading all these things online is hurting you. Women are similar to men... They each have their own taste and preferences. Majority of people don't want someone just because they're good looking, rich, etc. Red pillers are trying to make you feel bad about yourself and make you believe that by being all these things will get women to date you, but that's not true. What do you want in a woman? Must they be super hot, rich, etc.? Those things really don't matter, what matters is that you connect with them on a deeper level. If you love someone, those things don't even matter. I would never date someone solely because they're good looking or rich, but who they are. Sure some women won't like you, that's life, not everyone is going to like you, just as you're not going to like everyone else. Dating is about finding the person who fits with you, however that may be. Plus, if the person only wants to date you because you have all these shallow traits... They're probably not great people.

Title	Important question: how is guy supposed to be like to be considered GOOD ENOUGH to date?
Author	Present-Goose9574
Upvotes	21
Comments	78
Date	September 22, 2021 1:16 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/pt7bu9/important_question_how_is_guy_supposed_to_be_like/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/important-question-how-is-guy-supposed-to-be-like.1074979 https://theredarchive.com/post/1074979

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