MensLib deleted my post | LeftWingMaleAdvocates

OkLetterhead9 · 2020-07-22T14:54:48+00:00

I never posted something on MensLib (feminist subreddit reserved for men's issues) and get approved !! They are scared that people will wake up to the...

[+]TheTrashBoat0646 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

And RationalWiki says MensLib and IncelTears are one of the very few good subreddits...

A very rare example of a community that brings attention to the societal and internal struggles which men face without attacking women or feminism. In addition to addressing these problems, it puts a lot of focus on debunking the pseudoscience and misogyny that runs rampant in other men's rights communities.

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[–]BCRE8TVE 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I personally like "toxic gender expectations" myself, it's the expectations placed on men that are so toxic, and cause them to act in a certain way. It's not the masculinity itself that is toxic, or the men, it's how we expect them to behave a certain way and they are trapped with those toxic expectations with no healthy way out.

That expression of toxic femininity is also because women are encouraged to be agreeable, which means no outright or open disagreement, so rather than bother you directly they assassinate your character with rumours, and then deny that they are doing it to deny the conflict. Then when you complain about it they call you childish and say you're over-reacting. It's a classic case of emotional manipulation and abuse, but it's all passive-aggressive, non-confrontational.

Playing the victim also relies on that kind of emotional abuse in the drama triangle of "victim, persecutor, rescuer", because if they put themselves as the victim, they force you to either be the rescuer to save them and agree with them, or as the persecutor who made them be a victim. It's emotional abuse because they're putting themselves as the victim and blaming you for it, accusing you of being a persecutor and therefore being a bad person.

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[–]BCRE8TVE 22 points23 points24 points 6 years ago* (30 children) | Copy Link

Maybe this is quibbling, but I've always felt it was more like men a close second.

You're not allowed to criticize feminism. You're not allowed to criticize women. If there is a problem, you must either completely ignore the cause of the problem and not talk about it, or blame the problem on toxic masculinity, men, or the patriarchy.

Men are not a close second. Men are a distant third, so long as they toe the feminist line and accept to stay within the nice little niche that feminists have carved out for them, and if they ever step out of bounds they must be silenced or banned to protect the rest of the flock from their sexist woman-hating ideas.

I wish I was joking.

I think it's unfair to say men's issue are a distant third there. That's a bit of an extreme generalization. But I agree it's still far too taboo to be openly questioning of feminist theory without immediately being seen as derailing the conversation or an MRA.

Most of the issues raised about men in menslib is about niche cases or minor things, like how masculinity interacts with men being more feminine, or men being bi or gay, or men having issues in some way being closer to the feminist ideal. If the issue for men does not align with the feminist perspective, and is pointing out how some problems come from women, then it is not welcome and you cannot talk about it. Hell you're only allowed to talk about how men being excluded from LGBTQ circles is only bad if it's gay or bi men. If you don't have a minority card, or express your problems in an explicitly pro-feminist pro-woman way, you're going to have a hard time talking about anything without either your thread getting deleted, or half the comments nuked.

I don't think it's an extreme generalization when there is draconian moderation, where comments are deleted on a regular basis with no public justification or accountability, where "unproductive discussion of feminism" is not allowed and where "unproductive" is allowed to such wide interpretation that it can mean anything at all, and that you're not allowed to talk at all about the excessive moderation or the lack of transparency or accountability.

[–]AdventurousShepherd 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

You know what, you helped me realize something. I'm actually in more agreement with you now after you laid it again, thanks!

I feel that on the whole the mod team and what happens in the comments can be very different. Although I fully believe they mean well, I am not at all for how the sub is moderated and I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Especially more recently after that rule change where basically certain things are now impossible to even bring up in good faith. That's bad.

I think there is a contingent of people who more or less align with the mods as well but I would say that there is also a large contingent of people who are much more open minded. I've seen plenty of critical discussion in the sub, and far outside just niche issues as well. I don't think you're at all being disingenuous with your representation, but I feel we certainly differ in our experiences there somewhat.

It's definitely absurd and you are very right that you can't criticize feminism at all there. People absolutely can and do criticize women though. What I wasn't acknowledging though and what I better see now through your frustration with them is just how much you have to tip toe when you do it. Which should not be the case. Not in a male identifying space. By most feminists standards that's what a safe space is for!

It's hard for me to hate the sub still because it's still such a far far far cry better than most places out there and I see it absolutely helping more than hurting. I think because it's one of the few places that is close to helping, it's even more infuriating when we feel it's not living up to what it could be or is actively harmful.

Thanks for taking more time to lay out your thoughts.

[–]BCRE8TVE 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

No worries :) I will admit though I didn't write it with the express purpose of changing your mind, it was much more about airing my grievances. I was in a relationship with my first girlfriend who was black, and while I absolutely respected that I as a white man never had to face issues with black culture, when the same thing came up with feminism and sexism she would use it to tell me that my opinions and feelings were wrong because I was a man. No matter what I said or did, it was all invalid because I was a man. It damaged me a lot, and I've been in therapy for almost 3 years now to try and get back to how I was before the relationship started.

I do want to talk about men's issues, I do want to vent, and I do want to let that anger out. If it's a safe space for men, like you said, I should damn well be allowed to do it. Menslib however is not a safe space for men. It is a safe space for women, moderated from a strict feminist perspective. That's why I said that you cannot criticize women, because it's a feminist safe space for women that happens to talk about some issues for men.

Now that being said you are right and I was exaggerating when I said you could not criticize women. You absolutely can, but it has to be a specific woman having done a specific bad action, her bad acting cannot in any way ever be connected back to feminism, and the way she acted has to be considered bad from a feminist perspective. That puts an awful lot of restrictions on what you're allowed to criticize, especially when mainstream feminist groups encourage and empower women to say that "men are trash" because when they do it they're venting and they're obviously not talking about all men. Well, that's something they can do, but something men are not allowed to do on menslib, and the fact they can't even recognize the blatant hypocrisy and double standards inherent in that is infuriating.

feel that on the whole the mod team and what happens in the comments can be very different. Although I fully believe they mean well, I am not at all for how the sub is moderated and I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Especially more recently after that rule change where basically certain things are now impossible to even bring up in good faith. That's bad. I think there is a contingent of people who more or less align with the mods as well but I would say that there is also a large contingent of people who are much more open minded. I've seen plenty of critical discussion in the sub, and far outside just niche issues as well. I don't think you're at all being disingenuous with your representation, but I feel we certainly differ in our experiences there somewhat.

It's definitely bad that men are not allowed to talk about the issues that affect them if mods have flat-out decided that those subjects are off limits. That again defeats the purpose of a safe space for men, and even the purpose of spaces dedicated to talking about men's issues. Interestingly enough, all the issues you're not allowed to talk about are issues that cannot be easily solved by or run counter to feminism. Basically you're not even allowed to comment that there are issues that feminism cannot solve, and that's how they can keep control over what people think.

There is definitely a large contingent of people who agree with the mods, but the problem is that those who don't have to constantly tip-toe with the skill of a professional ballerina, or get banned eventually for "unproductive criticism of feminism". It get tiring after a while, so obviously the only people who are let after a long while are people who agree with the moderators, because all the others are keeping silent, are censured, or banned.

It's true that there can be discussion outside of niche issues, and it's a bit unfair of me to paint it like that, but it certainly feels like niche issues are over-represented, that actual mainstream issues are talked about (so long as it doesn't go against feminism), but if many of those issues are caused by feminism, then you can't find any solutions to those issues because you're not allowed to actually address the root cause, and so you're left with people saying how bad it sucks, how much they'd like to change it, and how they can cope with it, with no actual hope of making any meaningful or lasting changes.

It's hard for me to hate the sub still because it's still such a far far far cry better than most places out there and I see it absolutely helping more than hurting. I think because it's one of the few places that is close to helping, it's even more infuriating when we feel it's not living up to what it could be or is actively harmful.

I can't hate the sub, I just despise the moderation team, and the entire narrative around how it is the best space to discuss men's issues. It can be the best space to discuss men's issues from a purely feminist perspective, but if you're intentionally blinding yourself to any other potential perspective then clearly there are some issues you're going to miss, and you won't even know you'll miss those issues because you can't ever mention that feminism isn't this perfect solution that will solve everyone's problems no matter what.

It's a place that helps, but I still have the feeling it's the equivalent of giving a wheelchair to people to help deal with things that have given them a broken leg, but if anyone dares to heal and walk on two legs they either have to keep the wheelchair forever or be banned, and you're not allowed to talk about how perhaps crutches might help better, or how a brace could be useful.

It's very intentionally and deliberately carving out a small space for men to exist in and control their safe space so that it is safe for feminists and women, not men, and anyone who dares to step outside the bounds they set up gets banned, and called an incel, a misogynist, a woman-hating men's rights activist, and they become an immoral person whose opinion must be censored and ignored.

It sets up this constrained space where, if you are a feminist and a man, you must conform to, and if you do not or cannot, then you're not a feminist anymore and you're kicked out. It creates a very dichotomous "you're with us or you're against us" situation that perpetuates the problem, instead of having everyone talk honestly about the issues and actually find solutions.

The moderators of Menslib doesn't want solutions, they have the feminist answer to the problem, and if there is no answer then it must not be a problem in the first place, or the problem must be with the people asking the questions and not the issues that are raised. The community can be good, but just like I can be totally fine with the Chinese people and vehemently opposed to the Chinese Communist Party, I can be fine with the posters on menslib but hate the moderators and the constraints they put.

[–]AdventurousShepherd 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

First off, dude I am so sorry you went through that... that is fucking rough. =/ it's great you have the strength though to work through that in therapy, I hope you're doing better. And yeah you can absolutely vent, as you point out further on that is one of the express purposes of a safe space that is so ironically hard to find on menslib. And just as a general note, I assumed first that you were coming from a good place and partially venting, which means we can't hit every single tiny nuance of our argument perfectly so I totally get it. I think that's another thing that's so frustrating that if you mis say one thing or don't even include or preface everything just right you are automatically assumed to be acting in bad faith.

Now that being said you are right and I was exaggerating when I said you could not criticize women. You absolutely can, but it has to be a specific woman having done a specific bad action, her bad acting cannot in any way ever be connected back to feminism, and the way she acted has to be considered bad from a feminist perspective. That puts an awful lot of restrictions on what you're allowed to criticize, especially when mainstream feminist groups encourage and empower women to say that "men are trash" because when they do it they're venting and they're obviously not talking about all men. Well, that's something they can do, but something men are not allowed to do on menslib, and the fact they can't even recognize the blatant hypocrisy and double standards inherent in that is infuriating.

This is well said, I 100% agree.

and so you're left with people saying how bad it sucks, how much they'd like to change it, and how they can cope with it, with no actual hope of making any meaningful or lasting changes.

...

It's a place that helps, but I still have the feeling it's the equivalent of giving a wheelchair to people to help deal with things that have given them a broken leg, but if anyone dares to heal and walk on two legs they either have to keep the wheelchair forever or be banned, and you're not allowed to talk about how perhaps crutches might help better, or how a brace could be useful.

I think these two things you said are very related and it's a theme I had noticed as well. I do like the aspect of sometimes you just have pure support without a focus on what should we do about it, because as men we are constantly just asked what action we should do about everything. So having spaces that are explicitly about support and no action is so freeing for a lot of guys, since it's essentially never the expectation anywhere else.

With that said it definitely runs over far too often to your point where you can't even get the productive end of the conversation started. And god forbid it's even hinted that the answer isn't covered in the umbrella of feminism. Feminism is broad ranging yes, and it covers a lot of overlapping issues yes... but how can anyone credibly say it's some kind of complete societal answer, that's just naive.

It sets up this constrained space where, if you are a feminist and a man, you must conform to, and if you do not or cannot, then you're not a feminist anymore and you're kicked out. It creates a very dichotomous "you're with us or you're against us" situation that perpetuates the problem, instead of having everyone talk honestly about the issues and actually find solutions.

The moderators of Menslib doesn't want solutions, they have the feminist answer to the problem, and if there is no answer then it must not be a problem in the first place, or the problem must be with the people asking the questions and not the issues that are raised. The community can be good, but just like I can be totally fine with the Chinese people and vehemently opposed to the Chinese Communist Party, I can be fine with the posters on menslib but hate the moderators and the constraints they put.

yeah I very much agree. It's funny because until I found this sub it was by far the best thing I found anywhere else, it kind of blew my mind. And so I have been very willing to look past the less than ideal mods and some of the minor general issues with the sub. But I think there's nothing wrong for asking for more and expecting more, just a hard habit to break!

I think there are some things they do uniquely well and having a feminist mens liberation sub is broadly helpful to getting people onboard with treating men's issue more seriously. It's helped a number of IRL feminists (who are women identifying) take what I say about these issues with full seriousness and break with some of the common dogma. It's also great that it's so Queer and gay/trans men friendly.

But yeah the mods... oh boy. I'm sure they're fine people IRL but I feel it has definitely gotten worse over time. We would not have been allowed to have the very conversation we're having here! Which I have thoroughly enjoyed and I bet has been helpful to more than just us!

[–]BCRE8TVE 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Thanks, I appreciate. I tend to assume that most people are coming at a topic from a good place, until they're proven to be bad actors. The default in feminist spaces is that if you're not using the feminist language and perspective, if you're not explicitly and repeatedly assuring people you're not against feminism, then as a man you're assumed to be coming at it from a place of bad faith, and that kind of automatic defensiveness and contained hostility is absolutely toxic to good conversation. The fact they can't perceive that either, and answer with how it wouldn't be a problem if only the other person was more feminist, also goes a long way to showing just how out of touch they are with reality in general, psychology in particular, and how to have a productive conversation with people who don't agree with you.

This I think also stems from the victim mindset a lot, as seeing themselves as oppressed and part of a historically oppressed group, so that they must 'violently' (and I put quotation marks here because it can simply be hostile language) fight off the oppressors. It immediately forces the interaction into one where they are the victims and must be right or protected, and their aggressors must be wrong and silenced, until the aggressors prove that they are on the side of the victim. It's horribly toxic and backwards, but it's everywhere in feminist groups.

think these two things you said are very related and it's a theme I had noticed as well. I do like the aspect of sometimes you just have pure support without a focus on what should we do about it, because as men we are constantly just asked what action we should do about everything. So having spaces that are explicitly about support and no action is so freeing for a lot of guys, since it's essentially never the expectation anywhere else. With that said it definitely runs over far too often to your point where you can't even get the productive end of the conversation started.

I can agree to a certain extent, but I think there's an inherent difference between men and women here that goes completely unacknowledged. Maybe it's the product of socialization, but men tend to want to do something about a problem. They can talk about it, but often they want some kind of practical solution to either deal with it or be able to cope with it. Many women seem to love talking about their issues more than men do, and this is just de facto taken as "the right thing to do". Since men are not dealing with the problems the same way women are doing it, then clearly men are doing it wrong and they have to be corrected. So menslib swoops in to save these poor deluded men from themselves and shows them how to correctly deal with problems. Just do like the women, talk about it, and don't try to deal with it or have any kind of practical support. Just helplessly complain about it and vent your issues until someone else fixes the issue for you, I suppose.

It's a symptom of this standard where the women's way of doing things is taken as the default stance, the correct way of dealing with things, and men need to copy that. It completely ignores that men deal with problems differently, and remove the ability of men to find their own way to deal with their issues. No, they just have to follow the advice of the feminists who know better, and copy the women, and if it's not working then it's because the men aren't doing it well enough and need to be fixed some more.

And god forbid it's even hinted that the answer isn't covered in the umbrella of feminism. Feminism is broad ranging yes, and it covers a lot of overlapping issues yes... but how can anyone credibly say it's some kind of complete societal answer, that's just naive.

Welcome to the religious mindset, where reality doesn't matter, and pushing your religion harder solves everything.

They're not all like that of course, but far too many of them are. Ironic because they'll decry religion as one more patriarchal power structure empowering men and oppressing women (and they're actually right about that too), but then utterly fail to realize that they're drawing from the same book when it comes to their attitudes and mentality.

yeah I very much agree. It's funny because until I found this sub it was by far the best thing I found anywhere else, it kind of blew my mind. And so I have been very willing to look past the less than ideal mods and some of the minor general issues with the sub. But I think there's nothing wrong for asking for more and expecting more, just a hard habit to break!

This is why I do like this sub a lot more, there'S a lot more discussion and it's a lot more free-spirited. Sure there are conservative minded people and sexist people, but you know what? I don't mind. We get the chance to speak our mind, to talk, to argue, to disagree, to call each other fucking morons, and we can actually debate the idea. Worst case we'll act like adults, agree to disagree, and move on. There's no overarching feminist hive-mind we have to appease, appeal to, or to obey, we get to just be ourselves and answer how we want.

It pisses me off that menslib is sold like such a great place, because they paint every other place like it's invaded by incel women-hating rapist neckbeards and that the only place anywhere on reddit where you can have decent conversations is menslib. It's flat-out not true, but that's the narrative they'll continue to push because it's the only narrative feminism can push, and they'll continue to ban anyone who disagrees with them as though they were toxic red-pilled incel misogynists. They're perpetuating a stereotype that there is no place to reasonably talk about men's issues in order to promote their frankly castrated version of men's liberation.

I think there are some things they do uniquely well and having a feminist mens liberation sub is broadly helpful to getting people onboard with treating men's issue more seriously. It's helped a number of IRL feminists (who are women identifying) take what I say about these issues with full seriousness and break with some of the common dogma.

It is funny though because men'S rights advocates had been saying for decades that men's issues were not taken seriously, and feminists demonized them for it, and even when it's feminist men telling them so feminist women have a hard time believing it. The common dogma that feminists are breaking away from there, is the feminist dogma of the Duluth model, that men as the oppressor class have all the privileges and all the power, and therefore cannot have serious issues.

It's also great that it's so Queer and gay/trans men friendly.

Could be that other men's rights sub are not LGBTQ friendly, I haven't seen outright hate in those other men's subs, but the menslib model is pretty much rolling out the red carpet for any minority or disadvantaged men, whereas cis heterosexual men are just treated with indifference. Maybe I haven't seen how bad other subs are, there were slurs thrown around, but honestly it feels more like menslib is special treatment for minorities, whereas the other subs are that you might treat everyone shittily, but it's an equal opportunity shitty treatment. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

But yeah the mods... oh boy. I'm sure they're fine people IRL but I feel it has definitely gotten worse over time. We would not have been allowed to have the very conversation we're having here! Which I have thoroughly enjoyed and I bet has been helpful to more than just us!

Oh for sure our conversation probably breaks half the rules, we just have to mention that circumcision is genital mutilation, and that if a woman steals a man's condom and impregnates herself against his wishes she can trap him and he has absolutely no recourse whatsoever for getting out if it, whereas she can have an abortion or an adoption for an easy get-out-of-parenthood card, and we'll probably have hit every one of their buzzword rules at least once.

I am happy to hear you are enjoying this conversation, I certainly am as well! I still have a lot of anger within me, and it certainly pisses me off to see the hypocrisy and double standards. I'll calm down with time for sure, but right now I still clearly have wounds from the abusive relationship that haven't healed, and I need to get this out of my system. Some validation never hurts either ;)

I'm definitely happy too if this conversation helps other people!

[–]SchalaZeal01 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVE 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Religion when it doesn't say women are 'unclean' 3-4 days a month and temptresses who must be kept hidden lest men rape them, is pretty fair to both, gender role wise.

Eh, I'm mostly familiar with Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and associated groups, and they're all pretty patriarchal at their core. I'm not nearly as familiar with Hinduism, but it seems that in that case as well religious leaders are either entirely or overwhelmingly men. Could be true for eastern religions, but again Buddhist monks are men, not women.

Feminism is conservatism for men, but women only the good part of it (where I get helped), and not the restrictions. It's not progressive, it's just as conservative, but 'with more freedom for women' tacked on it.

I think it's probably more like saying that it's flipping the old gender roles, where men had more freedom than women. Now they want the opposite, give all the freedoms to women, too bad if it encroaches on men's freedom, and make no effort to address men's issues.

[–]SchalaZeal011 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVE1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The billions of adherents in those religions aren't leaders though. That's like saying "men are CEO" when 99.999999999% of men aren't CEOs.

That's true, but unlike CEOs there are usually explicit rules in religion that specifically prohibit women from attaining high positions of leadership in religious roles.

Except they didn't. Men had the provider role...and nothing. At best they only provided for themselves, but women also had this 'only for me' opting out. Both were shunned socially.

The provider role is a bit more flexible in how exactly you can be a provider, what you can do to provide. Being provided for at home meant literally being home taking care of kids and the kitchen. Most wives had that same kind of thing in common, where their husbands had more diversity in what they could accomplish in life.

You are right that those who failed their roles, be it provider or family-makers, were shunned socially.

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I've seen plenty of critical discussion in the sub

I bet none of them were critical of feminism or women.

People absolutely can and do criticize women though.

Ya as long as its not done in feminist spaces.

It's hard for me to hate the sub still because it's still such a far far far cry better than most places out there and I see it absolutely helping more than hurting. I think because it's one of the few places that is close to helping, it's even more infuriating when we feel it's not living up to what it could be or is actively harmful.

In what way has that sub helped any man? MRA's have done far more activism than they have done. And the MRA sub despite being toxic is in my opinion better than Menslib. As least there you can be critical of women openly, and they don't tone police anyone either or push correct thought either. They even welcome and allow feminists to take part there even. Can't say the same about MRA's in feminist spaces where being one gets you banned, no matter what you say.

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[–]BCRE8TVE3 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's less an obsession with the definition of feminism and more a problem with the actual actions of people who call themselves feminists. I mean, really.

So, couple of men's issues. Male rape. By and large if men bring up that they've been raped, or know of a guy who has been raped, it's viewed as either derailing the conversation, as not as serious, or that women have it worse. #Metoo and #believewomen have also increasingly polarized the world so that people are primed to believe women, not men. It's a great thing that victims of sexual assault come out and speak out against it, it's just a shame that the feminist version has the Duluth model as standard, where the man is the aggressor and the woman is the perpetrator. Statistically men are far less likely to report that they have been raped, and even to recognize that they have been raped, because rape is something that men do to women, right?

There's also the sentencing gap, where men are more likely to be convicted and receive sentences on average 60% longer for the exact same crime. That's not really something you hear feminists lining up at the door to fight against, because if they do that they lose the 'credibility' of women being victims.

And while we're on the topic of incarceration, one of the male privileges is also being something like 8x more likely to be killed by the police than women. Yes, black people are far more likely to be shot by the police than white people, but black men are also far far far more likely to be killed by the police than women. Feminists are very glad to point out how much more often blacks are killed by the police, but seem strangely reluctant to mention the fact that being a man is just as if not more important than race in determining if you're going to get shot by the police in the US.

I don't care about the definition of feminism, I care about what the majority of people who call themselves feminists do. If there is a bunch of man-hating people who call themselves feminists and use feminism as a shield to hate on men, that's a problem for the feminist movement, for them to get rid of those in their midst who call themselves feminist but aren't. That's not my mess to clean up, and you can imagine the outrage I'D get if I as a white male was to try and tell women who does or doesn't count as a feminist. So maybe you don't agree with the actions many feminists take, and that's fine, but that's not my problem. People who call themselves feminists do lots of damage to men and do not care to help men. Men can't rely on feminism because of this, unless and until the feminist movement gets rid of those within their group who are hostile to men.

Feminism acting for the empowerment of women and addressing women's issues is totally fine, and I'm all for it. As it stands however feminism by and large doesn't seem to want to tackle male issues seriously. Some feminists absolutely do, and many feminists don't. Again, it's the feminist's job to clean up their own movement if they want men to stop feeling attacked and alienated.

[–]CoffeehasSentience2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AdventurousShepherd 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MILFBucket 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]redgarnetamaranth11 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Ah yes, gender wars. Kind of like how almost every post on the feminist subreddits is exclusively complaining about men.

[–]peanutbutterjams 23 points24 points25 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVE 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MILFBucket 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]peanutbutterjams 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jakeybaby125 12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]burritobandito4 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Leinadro 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Xemnas81 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jondoe879 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]OneBadBoi 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Left it some time ago.

There was a discussion of how to stop men being killed by police the rate it happens, i mentioned i had discussed with my friends about it, and we came to a conclusion that it may not only be the rate we commit crimes in compared to women, but also how violent and dangerous we are compared to women (on average).

Men are most likely prone to violence more than women (not saying its only men) because of our old instincts. Its known that our brains still haven't developed much to this new type of life.

Of course, the gender roles we have also play a part in it, but because of the statistics and general behavior, we are more prone to violence when defending ourselves.

They removed the comment for implying that some things are inherently masculine and feminine.

Of course, i may be completely wrong, and am open to many opinions and ideas, and I would love to know the truth. Do tell me if I'm wrong.

[–]BCRE8TVE 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I think it's also more than just how men can be more dangerous (which I mean come on, if you're a police officer and there's a 5'8 woman running at you vs a 6'2 dude, clearly the guy is a greater threat), it's also that there is this insanely toxic narrative about how men are so much more dangerous.

So yes, men are dangerous, but police are also far more likely to treat men as more dangerous than they actually are, and far more willing to escalate and immediately use lethal means. The story here about a ftm trans man is especially useful. Same person, same build, same weight and size, and he describes how he was treated far more courteously by the police as a woman, but treated by default as a dangerous criminal by the police, for the crime of being a black guy existing in the same area.

Some things are inherently more masculine or feminine. Hormones influence our choices and behaviour. To ignore that is just post-modern bullshit ignoring facts that run counter to an ideology. I'm not saying women inherently prefer pink and men inherently know how to hunt better, far from it, but just because some of those gendered assumptions are wrong, doesn't mean we can remove ALL of them and pretend there's no difference whatsoever between men and women.

[–]SchalaZeal01 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVE 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SchalaZeal01 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVE 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AdventurousShepherd 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah this is the kind of thing that makes me sad! I wish your post could stand because while I don't actually agree with your assertion... I can't think of a credible at all argument why we can't discuss it!

Worst case scenario I learn something, you learn something, or we both do. I say that's worst case because clearly you are:

A) trying to engage in dialogue/conversation not just decreeing your truth.

B) explicitly open to discussion.

C) arguing in good faith. Not trolling.

These are exactly the conversations you shouldn't censor. Regardless if you as a mod agree or not.

As far as your particular point goes, I say I disagree simply because It's extremely difficult to be sure of anything when it comes to the human brain. We have to choose what conclusions we draw as fact very cautiously. I do think that it's an area worth looking into more to better understand the differences/similarities between the sexes. Shutting down scientific inquiry is not good.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kreeps_United 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Grow_peace_in_Bedlam 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Let's use an analogy from the law, as the law can be divided into substantive law (i.e., laws setting out peoples rights and obligations) and procedural law (i.e., laws setting out how such rights and obligations will be enforced).

Let's now divide gender issues into substantive issues (i.e., things are unfair to one gender or another) and procedural issues (what is being done or willing to be done to address the substantive issues). When it comes to substantive gender issues, I think men and women are roughly even, with some things unfair to women and others unfair to men, without any significant imbalance, if any at all.

However, when it comes to how such substantive gender issues are addressed, both legally and socially, there is a huge disparity in favor of women and against men. After all, women not only have the law, both national and international, and broader institutional action on their side, but also social privilege. Women can talk about their problems without being seriously ostracized (and if someone does criticize them, many more people will come to their defense). On the other hand, men who talk about their issues are indeed ostracized and abandoned.

[–]azazelcrowley 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AdventurousShepherd 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]OkLetterhead92 points 6 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I never posted something and get approved. i posted almost 20 time.

[–]AdventurousShepherd -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	MensLib deleted my post
Author	OkLetterhead9
Upvotes	72
Comments	82
Date	July 22, 2020 2:54 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/hvv703/menslib_deleted_my_post/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/menslib-deleted-my-post.1063080 https://theredarchive.com/post/1063080

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