Who's gatekeeping the discussion?

AskingToFeminists · 2023-01-12T19:07:07+00:00

I was reading your post, and one point of data that I was aware of suddenly clicked : Boys receive more punishment for the same behavioural issues (or, another way to put it, boys are punished more easily).

and one of the thing we often hear is "yeah, but boys also behave worse overall".

Except that, for people who know some psychology, we might have a chicken and egg situation here.

You see, it's been long established that punishment has a diminishing return when it comes to efficacy, and on the other hand, punishment tends to increase behavioural issues, opposition and violence.

As such, those additional punishments are most certainly responsible for boys behaving worse in the end, at least in part.

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2023-01-12T19:33:38+00:00

Something you start to notice being in these conversations for a while is that these ogres are following a religion.

They're not operating under a movement. Or an ideology. They work under dogmatic and at times cult like beliefs that are upheld by their social bubbles. Nothing you say. No amount of evidence will sway them because their beliefs are based in faith.

Here for example is a website listing some red flags that may indicate your group is a cult.

https://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html

Number two is practically what this presentation is about. And when you read through this list of red flags suddenly several things about these "ogres" start to make sense.

They're the end result of a religious community that seeks out hurting and disenfranchised people and pins the blame for all their ills on a simple monolithic group.

What we see above is also their tactic for keeping their own members in line.

It's the same thing you'll see in cults. Any questioning or desire to understand things outside of the framework of their beliefs is met with accusations of evil or wrongdoing. And if this persists then the result is ostracism from the entire community.

It makes me wonder how much we could learn and apply from those who work to help people leave cults?

Tedfordshire · 2023-01-12T19:28:19+00:00

Spitting facts as usual. Since you wanted feedback: I like a lot of your content that is facts-based, and I have shared a lot of it in the past. However, posts like this I avoid sharing. Not because I disagree, but because of how it would make me look. Slide 6 especially. I know if I shared this I would come off as whiney, as a troll, or immediately be lumped in as a reactionary anti-sjw type. There is so much real, tangible evidence that men are boys are disadvantaged, and I think your effort would be better spent sharing that, rather than meta-discussions like this.

That said, I love your work, keep doing what you do.

TheTinMenBlog · 2023-01-12T18:33:21+00:00

This is another draft post, so again please send me your feedback1

Talking about the systemic and structural problems impacting men and boys comes with a unique set of problems.

First, of course, we have the issues themselves – homelessness, drug addiction, death by suicide, police brutality, domestic violence, sexual abuse against men, the life expectancy gap, deaths of despair, father's rights, boys falling behind in eduction…

There are simply too many to name.But there is also a second layer of difficulty, that often impedes us from discussing or making progress in addressing these issues.

A problem that only occurs when you talk about the problems out loud; if you share a post, or try to raise awareness in public.

And that is a group of people who seem dedicated to destabilising, denying and censoring such meaningful conversation from happening.

Yes. An army of ogres, who simply cannot allow such compassion to happen, will soon arrive.

They barricade the doors. They pull the fire alarm. They bang pots and pans outside.

They call you silly names, they insult your character and make bizarre, outlandish and unfounded accusations.

They talk over you in discussion. They slide into your dms.

They shout and squeal and point fingers. They shake their fists and stamp their feet; to distract, deny and obscure.

Doing whatever they must to take the focus away from you, and back onto them.It was fun at first, but now kinda boring.

So how do we get past this barrier, to arrive back at the men and boys who need us?

How do we win over the ogres, or can we?

How do we supersede their authority, and break their monopoly of discussion?

How do we find love in the hearts of those who seem to hate us?

How do we dig their heads from the sand, and pull the fingers from their ears?

How do we beat the ogres?

~

Sources [1][2][3]

Images by Dan Cristian Padure, Gradienta, Kiwi Hug and Christopher Burns from Unsplash.

zurgle · 2023-01-12T19:43:59+00:00

I really appreciate the work you put into these; they're very good.

My honest opinion about this one is that losing the swearing on slide 6 (even though it is censored!) would make this acceptable to a wider audience.

On that subject, how do you envisage these slides being shared. Is that just by sharing the posts on Reddit, or do you distribute them in other ways?

katzenkratzen69420 · 2023-01-12T19:25:38+00:00

The discussion will be actively gatekept until these issues come back home and you won't be able in good conscience sweep them under the rug. It's kinda like "the worse it is the better it is" maxim of accelerationism. It's gonna be better for the discussion but people sadly will suffer in the meantime. The Ogre will still be there and doubtful he'll just disappear, it's just his voice will be suppressed.

How to get through the Ogre? Well the only way is to keep spreading the truth, the evidence will be obvious at some point for the majority

Son_of_Sophroniscus · 2023-01-13T02:28:44+00:00

Probably not the best idea to quote Schopenhauer... I love him, but with his well documented disdain for women and physical abuse of a woman, it's likely going to be a distraction to bring him into the discussion.

hotpotato138 · 2023-01-13T00:31:42+00:00

I graduated with a high GPA from high school. I didn't know boys are doing worse than girls. I asked a feminist a question, and she called me an "incel." They don't have any arguments.

CompetitiveOwl2 · 2023-01-13T03:21:53+00:00

I think a thorough debunking of the idea that men made the rules is important. Both that men as a class did and that our social structures, from which we get damaging gender roles and expectations, are some kind of top down construction. It's my belief that much of what we have and have had arose much more "organically" than that but I'll put that aside for now. I think we need to establish with solid evidence that, within these social structures, men and women both play a role in enforcing gender roles as well.

The other idea that needs to be tackled is that these issues affecting men are due to defects in men. Men are more violent, not as smart, lazier etc. Even where there might be some truth to this (I'm not saying that there is or isn't) it is important to establish the causes. Eg, young men dropping out of society in some places. You could say that they are making a choice, that it is a selfish choice even. To determine from this that men are fundamentally selfish would be foolish. Selfishness and laziness, among others, are options for how we deal with things in life. If someone chooses either, there is a reason. We must determine that reason. If we do so I would put money on the root cause not being a defect with men.

knightfluttershy · 2023-01-12T19:04:02+00:00

Arthur Schopenhauer is my favourite philosopher of all time. I don’t agree with him on everything, and I really don’t like any of his thoughts on women, but his opinions on things like ontology and animal rights are so far ahead of his time it’s almost scary.

matrixislife · 2023-01-13T00:20:11+00:00

Time kills all, including ogres. We keep on doing what we're doing now, and eventually we get to stage 3 [we're in 2 right now].

BKEnjoyer · 2023-01-13T04:04:12+00:00

The responses noted in here are basically every response I’ve gotten or seen from radfems- men must be inherently bad/wrong/predatory, intent doesn’t matter, it’s all your own fault and you must be a terrible person if you can’t make friends or have a romantic relationship/sex etc.

shortsandarts · 2023-01-13T00:14:14+00:00

I think the media needs to talk about it more many online news websites have sections for women talking about women's issues by women, they don't have the same for men if they do the stories are not by men or are not really talking about men's issues and more men are bad or blaming men.

Mirisme · 2023-01-12T20:47:08+00:00

I have found something of a way past the ogre by opposing liberal feminism with a more anarchist reading of feminism. In my opinion, capitalism is necessarily inegalitarian, which means that any proposal of equality under capitalism as is liberal feminism endorse this necessity. This pigeonhole men into their traditionalist gender role but present that role as both an issue and a necessity.

HazmiirAegis · 2023-01-13T02:10:28+00:00

Simple: we don’t. They’re never going to listen. No one cares about us.

gratis_eekhoorn · 2023-01-13T21:01:25+00:00

TinMen, please don't get me wrong and I know you were quoting other people there but in my opinion it would better if you did not involve that kind of language like 6th slide in your content as you are a high profile person in male advocacy and have always been a credible, moderate and a reasonable voice, probably the most effective voice for people who are mildly interested in male advocacy but not very invested in (yet).

comedyoferrors · 2023-01-12T22:00:51+00:00

While these are all good points in general, I do want to point out that the difference between the number of boys out of school and the number of girls out of school is less than 4%. This is well within the 95% confidence level, which is considered an acceptable margin of error. These numbers are so close together that the difference is not statistically significant. In other words, when you factor in errors in data collection, these numbers are essentially the same and we cannot draw meaningful conclusions from the very small apparent difference that we see.

HinduProphet · 2023-01-12T20:35:35+00:00

Violence has been used to get past Ogres in almost all social movements in history, including Feminism.

wohodude1000 · 2023-01-22T00:43:08+00:00

Spoiler: The ogre is feminism, standing in the way and shutting down all discourse regarding men's rights while claiming feminism helps men too!

Title	Who's gatekeeping the discussion?
Author	TheTinMenBlog
Upvotes	214
Comments	49
Date	January 12, 2023 6:30 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/10a6sos/whos_gatekeeping_the_discussion/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/whos-gatekeeping-the-discussion.1148601 https://theredarchive.com/post/1148601

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