Feminists and Moving the Goal Posts

crankypants15 · 2013-08-27T13:56:50+00:00

they're just trying to scream over me

That's what a person does when they don't have a valid argument. Congratulations, you win.

PowerWisdomCourage · 2013-08-27T14:18:03+00:00

Someone trying to scream over you is as close to winning an argument over the internet as you can get.

avantvernacular · 2013-08-27T15:07:36+00:00

If the justification for ignoring a crime is that other crimes happen more often, they why bother prosecuting any sexual assaults when thefts occur more? Murder, rape, assault, non of these will be talked about anymore because only the most frequent crime matters. We should rewrite our law to punish whatever crime happens most, and make everything else not a crime. This is the logical conclusion of their reasoning.

I feel like it shouldn't be necessary, but... /s

Kuato2012 · 2013-08-27T15:11:30+00:00

it's very emotionally charged and i feel like they're just trying to scream over me instead of actually think about what i'm saying.

Most likely.

is this common or something?

Yes, in my experience. Internet feminists rely heavily on feels, very little on facts. Facts are used only when they support the feels (confirmation bias). When no supporting facts are available, they double down on the emotional appeals.

have i made a huge mistake by engaging these people?

You likely won't change your interlocutor's mind, but the argument can always be made for such exchanges benefiting the lurkers and fence-sitters. Think of it this way: if nobody ever called feminists out on their bullshit, it would go unquestioned and unchecked. Which is largely what we see in real life.

how can i avoid this in the future?

Always keep your cool. If they're foaming and spraying their monitor with flecks of spittle while you remain totally composed, you've pretty much won the argument. Yes, they will resort to every nasty trick in the logical fallacy handbook to try to undermine your argument and get under your skin. Nobody ever said being the bigger person would be easy.

Pro-tip: study logical fallacies, if you haven't already. Knowing when someone is trying to "cheat" at the argument makes it much easier to dismiss huge chunks of their nonsense at a time. It also makes accusations like "you just hate women" less likely to really get under your skin, because it becomes easy to see just how unfounded such statements are... and how much they reveal about the accuser rather than the accused.

Last piece of avuncular advice: I have never once seen a discussion about rape that didn't devolve into a screechfest. Once the topic comes up, you can expect a similar experience every time.

SovereignsUnknown · 2013-08-27T15:35:37+00:00

they seem to keep ranting about how women are victims more often.

I was once told by a social justice warrior teacher I had that one way men and whites ignore sexism and racism is because "it isn't that bad." Thus, anytime an oppressed group brings up a time they were oppressed, the oppressors just ignore it.

So, turn their logic back on themselves. Ask them if it would be ok if 1 in 100 women got raped in school. Would they stop trying to end rape then, because it doesn't happen very often?

The thing is, there is no rape culture as feminists see it. The closest thing to a rape culture that exists is actually against men. Rape in prison is accepted and joked about. Male victims of rape are ignored in the statistics, and a violent crime (rape) is turned into a gender issue (it's not, it's a human issue).

So, instead

SovereignsUnknown · 2013-08-27T15:10:19+00:00

The more I debate with hardcore feminists, the more they begin to look like creationists. If you prove them wrong on something, they act as if you have personally attacked them, and they respond accordingly. The best response is to make sure they've addressed your points before allowing them to move on, as they tend to skip over discussing points they know they can't refute/defend. One of the worst examples of this from my experience was talking to a feminist who brought up the wage gap myth, and after I showed her that women are actually paid equally he immediately jumped to "well even if that were true, we still live in a rape culture!" Wait, what? What the hell does "rape culture" have to do with a wage gap?

The bottom line is that their arguments are rooted in emotion, not fact. Don't let yourself get dragged into a "feelings-off" with them, they have way more practice than you. Stick to facts, and make sure they do as well. Chances are within a few minutes of doing this they'll call you either a "misogynist" or a "rape apologist" and storm off to blog about how they smashed the patriarchy today.

rightsbot · 2013-08-27T13:48:17+00:00

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Qix213 · 2013-08-27T15:48:06+00:00

Very common tactic in an argument/debate. Religion especially. Though I would argue that it is no longer a debate when this tactic is used.

The argument is a lost cause until peoples emotions are not so hot. They are not actually hearing a word you are saying except on how to dismantle it or side step it. They will never take in a word you say and actually consider it.

If you want to keep the debate going you have to calm them down first. And that means you have to stay calm as well. This is paramount. Until both sides remember to breathe and actually listen to the others words, there is no point. Note: this may not actually be possible.

You can try explaining to them that being louder does not make them any more right in order to make them realize how they are acting. Do it jokingly, with a smiley face. Laugh it off. Don't be accusatory, it won't help.

Explain that you are willing to hear their side and analyze it, and then explain your response. Ask them if they are willing to do the same. Require an answer on this. Explain that if one party cannot stay on subject and at a reasonable volume, then they have given up on the debate and moved onto forcing their view on others instead. Again, notice the lack of accusation: If one party, not they...

Until both sides can acknowledge that with a good enough argument that they could be wrong, there is no point in debating.

If they try to blow you off of change the subject again, return to this. Don't let people change the subject without admitting that they don't have an answer for it. You don't have to change someone view immediately. Just getting them to admit the possibility of being wrong, or that they don't have a good response is a huge win. Don't dwell on your 'win.' Allow them to then move the debate to whatever tangent they tried to deflect with only after they state they they don't have a response for what you said. Allow them an easy out only after they admit (to themselves) that they don't know.

Hours later, that admittance will make them do more research on how to beat you next time. That is the time when you might actually change someone's views. Not while in the midst of argument.

Mythandros · 2013-08-27T23:17:59+00:00

You are trying to get FEMINISTS to come around to a perspective that doesn't agree with their patriarchy holy grail?

One question: WHY?!

It's like beating a dead horse with a stick. Seriously.

They are not going to listen to you, they aren't going to even CONSIDER listening to you. Don't waste your time and energy. The people you are trying to convince have nothing useful to contribute.

HappyGerbil88 · 2013-08-28T02:28:44+00:00

If they say rape happens to women far more often than men, ask for their source. It's most likely this, which defines rape as being penetrated:

Rape, as defined by the NCVS, is forced sexual intercourse. Forced sexual intercourse means vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by offender(s). This category includes incidents where the penetration is from a foreign object such as a bottle.

In other words, a woman who forces themselves on a man is NOT committing rape (unless she sticks something up his butt), according to them. Hopefully another Redditer can help me with a source, but when "made to penetrate" is included, men are raped at almost equal rates as women. Another point to note is several studies focused on college students, which would likely exclude the majority of prison rape victims.

So basically: The studies which support the idea that rape happens to women far more often than it happens to men use an archaic definition of rape that doesn't include female on male rape. Point out that these women are supporting rape culture by failing to recognize this as rape, and move on.

Kuato2012 · 2013-08-27T15:40:11+00:00

Rape is the feminist trump card. Whenever they're losing an argument, they quickly find a way to scream 'RAPE!!!!!!!!!' as loudly as possible.

espsteve · 2013-08-27T15:26:21+00:00

By arguing that a crime against one sex is worse than the same crime against the other sex, rather than discussing how the crime is horrible regardless of sex, aren't they proving your point? The more you talk with feminists the more you will run into the types of arguments where when something bad happens to both males and females, it's always worse for the females, or always needs to be address for female first. To argue otherwise makes you a sympathizer and an aggressor. This is a lead-in to the perpetual victim complex imo.

ddrluna · 2013-08-27T16:54:58+00:00

Oh it's common all right. Heck, even in a comment thread in here I just had yesterday, I had someone telling me that men's victimization was a small problem and when I said that suffering should be paid attention to regardless of gender they called it a hateful statement. You absolutely can't win with these people unless you're talking about women's "suffering". They couldn't give less of a shit about anything that happens to men because men are supposed to be the "privileged group" and any suffering you could POSSIBLY experience pales in comparison to theirs.

It's pointless to even try, really. Best you can do is TRY to ignore them (though I know it can be difficult with all their incessant shrieking...)

2013-08-27T18:19:30+00:00

is this common or something?

It seems like it happens just about every time I've tried to have a discussion with a feminist.

Also, where is this happening? Did you accidentally wander into a comment thread on freethoughblogs?

all_you_need_to_know · 2013-08-27T18:41:50+00:00

So here is how you handle them screaming over you. Acknowledge their points, subsume them and work towards a hybrid approach that would acknowledge both issues. Move beyond their normal layers of defense.

They are programmed to argue on certain points. Recognize them and move the discussion to an area where they aren't programmed.

You won't put a dent in armor that is already there.

guywithaccount · 2013-08-27T18:54:58+00:00

i feel like they're just trying to scream over me instead of actually think about what i'm saying.

That's because they are. Congratulations, you nailed it on the first try!

is this common or something?

Oh, yes.

have i made a huge mistake by engaging these people?

Probably not, but you might want to reconsider how you spend your time.

how can i avoid this in the future?

Choose your battles. Don't argue with feminists unless you have an audience that respects reasoned argument more than feminism's arsenal of lies, crocodile tears, and logical fallacies.

Hagiographic · 2013-08-27T20:51:40+00:00

You can only argue with a person who believes the earth is 6,000 years for so long. After you show them the stars further way than that and lay the evidence at their feet the only thing you can do is walk away.

You can lead a (wo)man to evidence, but you can't make him/her think.

mikesteane · 2013-08-28T06:47:59+00:00

Why do people bother arguing with feminists? Taking MRM arguments to the general public is a far more effective use of time.

I admit that I do like to argue with creationists and other religious zealots who occasionally knock on my door, I find their explanations of contradictions and absurdities in The Bible creative, amusing and sometimes brilliant. But I hold little hope of converting them.

Feminists, however are not amusing, creative or brilliant.

biffsocko · 2013-08-27T18:27:48+00:00

Don't engage feminists at all. They serve no purpose. Just keep fighting our fight in the courts, and keep getting other men involved in the cause. Create awareness among men where it counts, not feminists.

tarfogog · 2013-08-27T21:13:03+00:00

Why are you arguing with people who will declare you incorrect regardless if what you say?

theandycc · 2013-08-27T19:22:21+00:00

"Yes, but so what? That's not what we're talking about"

CACKENBOOLS · 2013-08-27T21:08:25+00:00

That's what happens when you apply hindsight to a not-even-once policy. Well... it happened. But, but it wasnt supposed to, see? Nothing about it makes sense.

Jesus_marley · 2013-08-27T21:53:40+00:00

Depending on how much effort you wish to invest in the discussion, you can either call them out directly when the move the goalpost and point out how their argument has no bearing on the discussion at hand, or you can acknowledge the point they make and "set it aside" for further discussion at a later time and consciously steer it back to the original discussion. Something like "I would be very interested in continuing the discussion regarding point X with you as soon as we finish with our original discussion of Y."

tyciol · 2013-08-28T10:53:26+00:00

At their very, very peak, feminists are academics who've chosen soft subjects to obtain PhD's to play "Doctor" in. This is the peak of the intelligence in feminism you will encounter and as we are all very well aware, academic feminism is beyond retarded. It spits at facts and properly done research, in favour of hyperbolic myths and conspiracy theories based on their own personal anecdotes.

Personal anecdotes from usually out of shape, un-aesthetically pleasing people...who've done "sociology" or "gender studies" at university level because it's the very most they're capable of.

What feminists are not:

Good looking, successful, driven people. Regardless of gender this holds true. The only exception may be Sheryl Sandberg but she is a diamond in a sea of ugly failures.

It's not the women or men who put effort into their appearance, who turn up and compete in tough work environments and business, who did tough degrees etc. who are championing feminism. In fact, these people distance themselves from it.

The feminists that make it into tough/well paid working environments? Generally in HR, are they not? HR, which is another piss easy element that academia has now dedicated resources to.

So what are feminists?

On the whole, they're bitter failures who are eager to blame everyone but themselves. They're the type who made an ordeal of PE or gym class in school because they preferred to sit home and stuff their faces on shitty food. They're people who couldn't forge relationships with others - they were the quiet type who had no friends. Not because people didn't try, but because they were bitter assholes.

We all know the type, and now look at feminist marches, speeches and authors and it's fucking them!

So what I'm saying is that if you're going to "argue" with feminists, you have to move your own goal posts. Not in terms of the dialogue, but of what you're expecting from someone. Expecting rational discourse from a feminist is like asking a dog to do the dishes - it's beyond them. Sure, they could perhaps learn some stuff by rote (as flawed feminism relies on), but generally you're just not going to get it from them.

The only reason feminists are being listened to these days, in any way shape or form, is because of the rise of, or push for, socialism/liberalism in western societies. Socialism, as Winston Churchill said, is the creed of failure and thus feminism and it go hand in hand. Look at socialists (not American "socialists" like Obama, true socialists) - they're failures who want more handouts (from the state) and more from the successful...they want to punish success and "equalize" society through handouts to those who've done fuck all with themselves.

So digest this and keep it in mind next time you're considering talking with feminists or socialists. When the world economy picks up, hopefully we'll see both return to the shadows where they belong.

2013-08-28T13:09:36+00:00

It's extraordinarily common among feminists. They take "dirty debating" to an entirely new level.

seenloitering · 2013-08-28T13:14:12+00:00

I don't think you can avoid it, but you can put a stop to it. What I do is stop everything abruptly when this comes up. This assumption is unethical, and I'm prepared to charge that this fundamental assumption renders any conclusion derived from it as unsound.

This isn't a problem of moving goal posts, but an ethical problem. They literally, from your perspective, cannot tell the difference between right and wrong. You need to address that.

Muffinizer1 · 2013-08-28T13:51:58+00:00

Also, tell them women are not victims more often, if you include men who are forced to penetrate. See www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf

Note that men forced to penetrate is almost the exact same number in 2010 as women raped. And this does not include men who are penetrated, because the sample from the survey was deemed too small to extrapolate to the entire nation. If you look at the ratio in the lifetime statistics, that's 22% of male rape victims penetrated, and if you use that as an estimate for victims in 2010, the number of male rape victims is far greater than female victims, but if you don't include that, and only men forced to penetrate, still 49.94% of rape victims in the us in 2010 were male.

owensounder · 2013-08-27T21:24:02+00:00

Use the "against me" method of winning an argument.

HERE

Title	Feminists and Moving the Goal Posts
Author	SovereignsUnknown
Upvotes	79
Comments	99
Date	August 27, 2013 1:44 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1l6q4h/feminists_and_moving_the_goal_posts/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminists-and-moving-the-goal-posts.1165355 https://theredarchive.com/post/1165355

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