Hannah Byron, 20, whose false rape claim led to an innocent man being arrested. Was seeking attention to make her former boyfriend jealous. Judge ordered 12-month prison sentence, suspended.

[–]Collective82 50 points51 points52 points 14 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

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Unfortunately, most evidence for rape is completely circumstantial. If we required direct evidence for rape very few real rapists would be put away. That doesn't mean that we should take a victim's testimony as completely true, but it does mean that we need to take accusations extremely seriously, because if we didn't rapists would walk most of the time.

That means that we need to have people who are experts on sniffing out the liars. People who ask victims questions, make sure their story lines up, and are trained to know when things aren't adding up properly. The problem with assuming a girl is lying when she comes forward until she can be proven correct is that real victims will stop coming forward. What rapists most commonly tell their victims is that "no one believe you, everyone will think you're lying and they will hate you for it". If we let ourselves get to a place where that is true, real victims will stop coming forward and rapists will get away with it.

[–]LogicalWhiteKnight 12 points13 points14 points 14 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

There's a problem with setting a sentence for false accusations, and that is that if a women lies, and knows that if she admits to lying and the guy goes free, she will go to prison. She's not going to do it.

Exactly that, especially because usually the only way to actually prove a false accusation beyond a reasonable doubt and convict a woman of it is if she confesses. She knows that even if the guy is found not guilty unless she confesses to having lied she will never get convicted. Without that confession sometimes innocent men go to prison for a long time.

It's a difficult area to address, but I feel what would make a more positive difference is to have both parties completely anonymous (no media shaming).

That is a damn good start. I think a good direction to go would be to treat it like we treat self defense claims under stand your ground laws. If someone is accused of rape, they are questioned. If they can come up with a reasonable and plausible story that they did not act criminally, then it should be up to the police to show probable cause that their actions were unlawful. Each story (the accuser's and the accused) hold equal weight, and the police need some additional evidence in order to show by the preponderance of the evidence (more than 50%) that the person most likely committed a crime in order to even arrest and charge them. Mere evidence of sexual intercourse should not count for this if the story of the accused is that they had consensual intercourse. If the preponderance of the evidence supports the reasonable and plausible story of the accused, they should be immune from all charges, and they should never even be arrested.

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[–]LogicalWhiteKnight 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No, I shouldn't have to prove it, did you read my post? I should be questioned, and if I can come up with a reasonable and plausible story that I didn't rape you, the police must show by the preponderance of the evidence (51%) that I most likely committed a crime in order to even arrest and charge me. Once that happens (this is the stage Zimmerman is at right now), if I can show by the preponderance of the evidence (at least 51%) that my story is true, that the sex was consensual or whatever, I should be found immune from prosecution and never face trial. Otherwise, more than half of the evidence points against me, and I should stand trail, to the reasonable doubt standard (98%).

That's how we do it for self defense. Currently for rape it is much worse than that, people are arrested and charged on mere accusation, and not given a chance to tell their story and avoid arrest unless the police have probable cause.

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[–]SilencingNarrative 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I really appreciate your good faith argumentation.

I think provably false accusations would most likely be discovered by the accuser's story falling apart under close scrutiny (rather than through DNA testing, direct witnesses and other hard proof), and are more likely than you credit.

Let's assume, however, that there are X false accusations per year that could not be proven false any other way than to have the accuser, wracked with guilt, recant, and where, without that recantation, an innocent man would go to prison for rape.

If X were a pretty big number, I mean so big that we hesitate to punish false accusers when discovered, lest they be less likely to recant for fear of punishment, what does that say about how seriously the justice system takes the 'beyond the shadow of a doubt' standard when convicting men of rape? If a man is going to prison for rape, shouldn't there be lots of evidence beyond her say-so, so much, in fact, that X would have to be a damn small number?

If we are sure than X is damn small, then why hesitate to punish false accusers? If we are not sure, then where does the justice system get off convicting men of rape with no serious evidence beyond the accuser's say-so?

[–]Qhost 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I always stress physical evidence when it comes to the law. I think it is the most valued asset to find someone innocent or guilty (I'm sure you do too). I also agree that allegations (falling apart under scrutiny) are very likely to be false - however it is currently my philosophy that I'll rather let 10 guilty defendants get away rather than let 1 person innocently be convicted.

So while I completely agree that there is evidence for (probably) many allegations, if I was on the jury, the evidence would have to stack up hugely (if there was no physical evidence) for me to agree on a conviction. But that's just me.

I also agree with you that the 'beyond the shadow of a doubt' disappears when it comes to men and rape. I am, however, pretty sure that philosophy is still upheld broadly over here in the UK, whereas it seems the USA prison system is just another privatized economy. There is still a dichotomy here, but it does not seem as common. (or maybe it is, it's hard to quantify with the large difference in population)

It's sad to know my idea of 'beyond a shadow of doubt' is held up stronger for a woman rapist than it is for a man. I might even say it's wishful thinking of me. I do hope I can work to change and educate others about it.

I also appreciate your appreciation of my good faith argumentation :)

[–]SilencingNarrative 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I also agree that allegations (falling apart under scrutiny) are very likely to be false - however it is currently my philosophy that I'll rather let 10 guilty defendants get away rather than let 1 person innocently be convicted.

I certainly agree with you on Blackstone formulation (let 10 guilty walk free rather than one innocent be punished). When I say that her testimony falls apart under questioning, I mean that it becomes obvious that the details of her story don't hold together and contradictions emerge, that make it obvious that she made it all up.

I think that scenario easily falls withing blackstones 10 to 1 ratio.

Are you saying that nothing short of a confession from the accuser would satisfy the 10 to 1 ratio in your mind? What sort of evidence would you accept as beyond a reasonable doubt?

WRT the UK, I have noticed judges there taking false accusations more seriously than American ones. I suspect the tide is starting to turn there.

[–]Qhost 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I certainly agree with you on Blackstone formulation

TIL the Blackstone formulation!

Are you saying that nothing short of a confession from the accuser would satisfy the 10 to 1 ratio in your mind? What sort of evidence would you accept as beyond a reasonable doubt?

I didn't mean to suggest that, sorry if I wasn't clear. While I value conclusive evidence like DNA etc, I will also be convinced by the evidence you suggested (An obviously made-up story, points proven wrong, shown she lied about some parts). What I am saying, is that to satisfy my take on Blackstone, it would need to be very clear that the story is made up; 'Beyond any reasonable doubt'

A very shaky story that changed a many times (like you say, obviously made up) WOULD for me be reasonable grounds for conviction for false allegation. If the story keeps changing, esp key areas (Where I was, what he did to me etc etc) then I would go say that is beyond reasonable doubt and fits in with my view of the Blackstone formulation.

If there is a slip up in an accusers story, which isn't 'major' (what is major or not is very subjective and dependent on individual cases) then while I would be doubtful, I would not consider it enough to have her convicted of a false allegation. That said, equally a minor lie/change of story (again subjective, can't give an absolute example) on a case where I'm deciding whether someone is guilty or not of rape, would probably push me towards saying innocent. (If there is no physical evidence).

Sorry if my last post wasn't clear. I'll be happy to elucidate further if you wish.

In the UK, we don't have 'crazy' news stations like FOX - our main news station, the BBC is widely regarded as a good source. And while it has had its controversy. It doesn't employ the tactics many american news does. I think core differences in the media (and politics etc) are a reason why ideology like fundamentalism and feminism do not have as much of a political effect here than in america. That said, america is pretty much like the EU in terms of a collection of different countries. I can't generalize completely (not everyone watches fox).

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There's a problem with setting a sentence for false accusations, and that is that if a women lies, and knows that if she admits to lying and the guy goes free, she will go to prison. She's not going to do it.

But few situations of innocent people getting as far as trial or jail who end up with their freedom are due to the false accuser admitting to the lie. Most often it is because of inconsistencies or trump cards proving the accused could not have possibly comitted the crime.

In any event I would say that prison sentences for false accusers should be mandatory where the person has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt (as with all crimes) that there was fraud and perversion of justice committed.

We have to stop giving a free pass to obvious pyschos who either don't think their lies are serious (through no criminal ramifications and they know it), didnt think they'd get caught (because of no criminal ramifications), or didnt care (because of no criminal ramifications).

The question is, do you think more innocents will be saved by preventing consequences for false accusers so there are no consequences for admitting the lie OR how many false accusations would be stopped before they happened if it was public knowledge such a false claim is punishable by prison??

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[–]Qhost 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

You think it isn't important to have a good image? Yes, using words like 'cunt' to expound our ideology may be more in-line with the anger some of us feel, but it is ultimately dangerous and detrimental to what we aim for; equality between genders. Here's why.

The men's rights movement doesn't exactly go out on NBC, CNN and FOX and broadcast its opinions to millions of viewers. We don't have 'head speakers' which can articulate what we all want to say beautifully. If you haven't noticed, the men's rights movement is largely an internet organization. We don't have meetings in real life like feminists. As a result we have very little social and 'legal' power unlike feminism - we make change by educating as many as possible via the internet, hoping that these people we educate will go on and educate more. Striving for equality.

Sitting around saying 'This cunt' that or using pejorative in excess might, for you, be some kind of elitist demonstration of your non-conformity and intellectual ability. But it does nothing other than to embarrass us as a group. When you speak like that, you go from intellectual honesty to a intellectual moron.

If you look at /r/atheism - it's the ones which elucidate carefully and in a controlled, honest manner that actually changes the views of religious people. The atheists which lambaste the religious do NOTHING but damage the opinion of atheists not only from the religious, but from the non-religious as well.. It's the reason why Dawkins, Hitch, Harris are so successful and do so much good, they don't go on TV and call christians 'CUNTS'. (Hitch however, does go further than the others).

You think the people who 'hold hypocritical views from a position of self-righteousness' are going to change by calling them various pejorative terms?

No.

You are either an elitist narcissistic moron - or a troll trying to gather support against us.

EDIT: Looking at your 2 hours old account and recent posts. I call troll - or a angry keyboard warrior who wants to shout at everything.

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[–]lt_hindu 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Ok ok. So let's say the male species is better than the female species because we have the Y gene and able to dominate everything in this world. The fact that women are condition to be submissive to males in society blah blah. They are wired differently which gives them this "femininity" nature.

Well tell you what bud times have changed since our simple cave days. Women, like men, have limitless possibility. A chick could be a ninja and be a very deadly assassin. The reason why there is a natural right to life is because any human being has the capacity to kill another. If that person is stronger than me, I can sneak up and poison or something.

We all have rational functioning brains that allow us to make out own decisions. That's why we need to end backward social Norms that keep us in the dark. Only by making opportunities and ending dumb thinking patterns can we actually get to the stars.

In a group sense. Males are stronger. But women can be trained to be fighting killing soldiers also. It depends on the individual.

I am try to be as nice as I can mr troll

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[–]Qhost 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Since you picked only a small part of my reply to attack. I'll do the same, and much more succinctly as well.

Yes, we are equal in worth because both genders fulfill a necessary function, but we are not equal in design, thus not equal in function.

Equality = Equal human rights and equal treatment via the law.

Doesn't matter that functionally men are better at exercise and women are better at multi-tasking. Treatment via the law and human rights should remain consistent and non-bias. You seem to believe I'm talking about equality as if it encompasses job opportunities, wages etc? That is the feminist idea of equality and it's wrong. Get your facts right. Stop making idiotic assumptions.

You're talking like an angry child. SCREAMING angry child. No-one is listening to you. I looked at your comment history and it appears you worship that emasculation video. You link it in most of your posts. What, you watched one video and suddenly your the intellectually superior individual who single handedly has a better philosophy than everyone else?

I'm taking pictures of this conversation in-case you are a little feminist troll trying to make us look bad.

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[–]cthulufunk 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

(jedi hand wave) "faggot nonsense" (back to troll cave)

You were called out for making inarticulate, inflammatory comments. You then launched into a scripted tirade about him "apologizing for his existence" and asking permission to do anything. Was like a clumsy copy&paste from MA's site. Your reasoning is: sexist feminists do it all the time, ergo, I should employ the same tactics against them. When you debate from a position of emotion like that, you are playing by their rules. Aside from the "Charge Of Faggotry", your shaming tactics are identical to feminist shaming tactics. The substance of your position was never questioned, your style was. So, it's obvious you're a troll, it's just given your cartoonish delivery it is hard to tell if you're an MA acolyte or a ShitRedditSays goon.

Stop dicking around on Reddit and get to today's Manhood Jedi Academy butt-punching class already, those microwave burritos aren't going to cook themselves.

[–]saoran 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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As a MRA, it is a big concern to me that women will not report sexual assault crimes. It's already extremely difficult for people to come forward after being raped or harassed. However, that should never be a reason that people aren't punished for false claims against another. Victims of false claims are likely to be raped themselves, repeatedly, as well as lose everything. A 12 month suspended sentence is a slap on the wrist and an outrage for attempting to put someone through the fore mentioned agony.

I want to make it clear, however, that I think that there's a good case to be made in civil court. If the criminal court can't distinguish between a false rape accusation and simply filing a false police report, the civil court can. The same prejudices don't exist in civil court and a case like this is easily worth 6-7 figures.

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[–]servohahn 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The problem with rape cases is that they're hard to prove. It's why it's so easy to make a false rape claim. People can get convicted for rape if a sexual encounter was consensual or if it never happened. Often rape claims, true or not, have equal amounts of evidence. I think the line of reasoning is that since there's already no proof in a lot of rape cases, people who are raped wont come forward about it because they'd be afraid of being called a faker.

The obvious way to let people on both sides of the issue rest easy is by making sure that the standard of evidence is high for both rape claims and claims of false rape claims. Of course, this isn't the case but I want to point out that just because the system is more concerned about one than the other doesn't mean that the concern is invalid. They're taking a bad stance to be sure, but it's bad because it's lacking something, not because it's including something.

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No, it isnt excusible, and that is why she got sentenced. But I do think that there is a difference between falsely accusing someone of rape because you want to destroy someone's life or because you want your ex to care about you. But that's just my opinion.

Also, I dont think this case is comparable to unloading a gun on customers and co-workers. Please enlighten me how this is the same. A false accusation is not the same as mass-murder last time I checked.

Probably the only thing we can agree on ITT is that we all hope the falsely accused isn't haunted by this for the rest of his life.

Also, Im from the Netherlands where these type of cases aren't as widespread as in the States. I completely understand that most redditors in this sub are way more fierce than I am when it comes to the false rape accusation OF THIS PARTICULAR CASE since the justice system is much more unfairly skewed towards women than in the Netherlands. So I can understand the downvotes.

[–]cuteman 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

But I do think that there is a difference between falsely accusing someone of rape because you want to destroy someone's life or because you want your ex to care about you. But that's just my opinion.

I doubt the majority of these false accusations are designed to destroy somebody elses life, but rather create drama, attention or an alabi in their own. Regardless of the reason somebody did something, the fact is that they did it. Feeling sorry or bad about what you did doesn't go very far when there's very real and innocent people hurt by this.

Also, I dont think this case is comparable to unloading a gun on customers and co-workers. Please enlighten me how this is the same. A false accusation is not the same as mass-murder last time I checked.

You may it sound like she was justified in doing what she did because she was emotional over her boyfriend, but by that same token, if a postal worker is emotional over their situation--- isn't that very similar? Negating the bad thing they did, because they personally are having a bad time.

That's why its legal to ram somebody's car when they do something stupid on the road, right? /sarcasm

Probably the only thing we can agree on ITT is that we all hope the falsely accused isn't haunted by this for the rest of his life.

There are varying degrees of haunted by, but I guarantee you this particular individual was damaged enough by it he'll surely warn friends, family and children about the dangers of this situation and possible tips how to avoid it.

Also, Im from the Netherlands where these type of cases aren't as widespread as in the States.

There might be a larger respect for proper conduct as some of the scanavian countries are more "mature" in general, but it does happen. Then again there are proposed laws by neo-feminists insisting men sit down while they pee.. so that might only go so far.

I completely understand that most redditors in this sub are way more fierce than I am when it comes to the false rape accusation OF THIS PARTICULAR CASE since the justice system is much more unfairly skewed towards women than in the Netherlands. So I can understand the downvotes.

unfortunately, while at college, I witnessed not 1, but 2 false claims against people I know by unresmoreseful, troubled women. While I am sure there were actual situations of sexual assault, I never knew anybody who was assaulted in this way. From my perspective, the two are just as evil and just as problematic.

But the difference is perspective between the two, society is up and arms as if rape is everywhere and an epidemic, while false accusations barely happen and aren't worth any significant thought. (until you personally witness such a travesty).

Honestly, I wouldn't have thought it was such a big problem until I saw it with my own eyes, and how the system/university treated my friends. Fortunately the police were professional and obviously more versed than the university because they didnt even arrest one of the friends, but that still wasn't enough to prevent BOTH from being dismissed (in the case of the guy who wasn't arrested) expelled (for the guy who was arrested, yet the story merely had more consistencies and a better connected accuser).

I don't want anybody to be raped just like I don't want anybody to be falsely accused and face situations worse than being raped by itself. (raped in prison, while falsely accused and losing everything you have I would argue is worse than being raped and is very probable if you get to that point)

[–]floredditor -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I doubt the majority of these false accusations are designed to destroy somebody elses life, >but rather create drama, attention or an alabi in their own. Regardless of the reason somebody >did something, the fact is that they did it. Feeling sorry or bad about what you did doesn't go >very far when there's very real and innocent people hurt by this.

It was my understanding that the man who got arrested was just a guy who "fit the description" and that she completely fabricated the whole story. Reread the article and it seems that she did in fact accuse him specifically. So yeah, that is much worse then I at first thought...

You may it sound like she was justified in doing what she did because she was emotional over >her boyfriend, but by that same token, if a postal worker is emotional over their situation--- >isn't that very similar? Negating the bad thing they did, because they personally are having a >bad time.

The principle is the same, but some crimes are worse than others.

There might be a larger respect for proper conduct as some of the scanavian countries are >more "mature" in general, but it does happen. Then again there are proposed laws by >neo-feminists insisting men sit down while they pee.. so that might only go so far.

Yeah, we have some issues (especially US male-bashing media-import which is probably my biggest annoyance). But I think the US is probably the worst place to live when you have to depend on the "system" while being male (eg judicial, correctional, etc). Particularly when you are facing accusations from a woman. I have never had any experience with me or friends being accused of anything as what you are describing, and I have never heard of a similar story from any of my friends during college. And sex was mostly had with drunk girls while being drunk. Nobody really cared about it afterwards, while that's rape in the States. The system is screwing the American male hard right now. It's truly sickening and you guys need to stand up for yourselves if you want to re-balance the system.

I just thought (and still think) this particular story wasnt a very strong case to built an argument around.Thats all...

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