Hello r/mensrights

EvilPundit · 2013-09-02T07:32:14+00:00

Welcome!

You will find that while we do not always agree with you, we are open to sincere dialogue. Just like feminists, some of us have been personally hurt by discrimination, and may be angry as a result. Please bear that in mind when evaluating comments, and don't take hostility personally.

We are very open to input from women. Some of our strongest and most intelligent activists are female - girlwriteswhat, oneirosgrip, typhonblue, and many others.

Many people would like a movement that combines men's rights and feminism, and I believe a movement like that is very possible. However, there will have to be a lot of venting, argument, and negotiation before that becomes possible. I would not expect to see such a thing in less than ten years.

Edit: This might help explain why I think we have a long way to go.

Cthulusbaby · 2013-09-02T11:22:03+00:00

If you posted this kind of question on r/feminism or r/askfeminists you'd be banned from both subs. That should already tell you something.

Sharou · 2013-09-02T07:47:24+00:00

AFAIK something like 95% of MRA's identify as egalitarian. The reason we support the MRM and not the egalitarian movement is that women's rights already have a lot of influence and power and, I can't speak for everyone but I feel that before egalitarianism can work we need to raise awareness of male problems lest egalitarianism just becomes a female-centred movement like feminism. Basically most people think men don't have sexism related problems and if we fail to raise awareness of these then I fear egalitarianism would just mean "feminism + solving the 1 or 2 tiny problems men have too".

Another important thing to note is that while MRA's support women's rights (we tend to have a sexism-literate world view after all and we see that women too suffer from sexism) we do not support feminism. The difference between women's rights and feminism is that feminism contains the patriarchy theory narrative, where men are seen as oppressors and women as victims. Where women are seen as having a net total of much more problems with sexism than men. This idea springs from simple ignorance of male problems and yet feminists in general tend to not try to educate themselves on what these problems are but rather attack us and our movement, painting us as misogynistic pigs who just want women back in the kitchen. You should know that our movement is under constant attack and harassment from feminists and so there is a lot of bad blood there. Feminists who are genuinely curious about the MRM are however welcomed with open arms in this sub. We tend to get a few every month. So, welcome and enjoy your stay!

2013-09-02T07:59:25+00:00

The thing your trying to struggle with here it seems is that most of the MRM feels feminism hasn't done a thing for the plight of males. In fact most feel it has done more harm then good. Feminism spreads fear and hatred of men in general.(ie:misandry.) There are major issues with suicide, homelessness, getting medical treatment etc that feminists won't even acknowledge or if they do.. do nothing else. We like having women on board with us because it is nice to see some empathy for the plight of disposable males. There is some nasty posters at times but normally they get downvoted into oblivion. MRM isn't a terribly well organized group. It's more like a loose association of a wide variety men that recognize that we are facing discrimination and it's quite wide spread actually. IDK that's the way I see it.. can't say I speak for the movement lol.. but roughly speaking that is the appropriate sentiment.

EDIT: Some video reference that's favored http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Understanding Gynocentrism will also help you understand lots as well.

GingerRazz · 2013-09-02T08:14:05+00:00

I just found this community a few days ago when a male friend pointed me towards it to help me recover from an emotionally abusive relationship. Before that, I was unaware that any such movement as men's rights even existed.

I lurked here to read a lot of the posts, and there are some people who are somewhat anti-woman, but they don't get respect from the community as a whole. The general attitude that drew me in is that rights are not a zero sum gain. No group has to loose rights for another to gain rights.

Up until now, I've had many issues with the way feminism has hurt me as a man. I've had so many women who want to be treated as full equals but do not want to take on their share of the work in the relationship. I'm talking about things like planning dates, splitting the bill, buying each other gifts rather than just me buying them gifts, having an equitable sexual relationship rather than expecting me to always initiate sexual activity, etc.

As such, I started to refer to myself as an equalist because I firmly believe that all people reguardless of gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or faith are equal and it is merely the actions that make people better or worse than other people.

I'm working on joining in this community and becoming a member because the vast majority of the community seems to hold that view, even if they occasionally lash out because they've been hurt so profoundly by discrimination.

I can't speak for everyone here by any means, but anyone who respects the suffering i've been through, I consider to be an ally in my cause and will treat them as such.

iggybdawg · 2013-09-02T08:21:04+00:00

To preface: I am still pretty new to the "movement", and am a bit younger than most of the men on here. Take what you want from my post.

I think if someone is a feminist they are also a bigot. Every single branch of feminism today either (A) Ignore's mens issues (circumcision, workplace deaths, education, suicide, depression) (B) Says these issues are a part of "Patriarchy" and will be all solved once we abolish gender roles as if that's even plausible within the next millennium or (C) Says that these issues do not exist.

There is not a version of feminism out there that is for equality. Not neo-feminism, or modern feminism, or liberal feminism, or radical feminism, or Socialist feminism.

Feminism does not contribute to equality. The women on NOW, women like Oprah or Hillary Clinton or Sharon Ozbourne or the women of The Talk and The View identify as feminists. These are women that condone and embrace the double standard advantages that women have. They promote women's rights and completely oppose men's (health, education, societal, legal) activism. They also condone the abuse and mutilation of men (Oprah wearing foreskin cream, sharon ozbourne saying that it's okay to cut your husband's penis off on her talkshow, hilary clinton saying women are the primary victims of war). These are just some examples of feminist figures in politics and entertainment. These are the women young women (and feminists) are idolizing and taking in as role models. Not book authors or article writers or internet trolls. Young women are being influenced by evil people. Also, the group you are thinking of is Egalitarianism. Egalitarianism is a "group" or "movement" or "belief" (if you will) that is essentially true equality. Genders are a part of society, they do not exist biologically. Thus egalitarianism does (should) cover the basis of sexual equality. Definition for gender I am an egalitarian, and a mens right's advocate and activist, but above all of that I am a secular humanist. I only have a limited amount of on this earth and unfortunately I can't make a dent in every issue myself, so I'm dedicating my time towards Men's Rights and Men's issues. This does not mean I am not interested in women.

My mom is a Radical Feminist. She is the only feminist I will ever talk to in a caring manner. She says she believes in equality for both genders, but any attempt at discussion or debate is met with hysterical blabbering, shouting, or literal crying. She is narrow minded on gender issues albeit an open minded person, and she believes in a nonexistant rape culture and patriarchy. It's impossible to debate or have a rational discussion with her on this, which leaves me dumbfounded.

For example, today me her and my brother went out to eat - and as per usual gender issues came up and my mom told me she believes every single man is capable of rape, and the only way to cure "rape culture" is to educate men not to rape. It is honestly disgusting the way feminism brainwashes women with shame tactics and nonexistant facts. I know that's vague, but to really get into it, we'd need to delve into a specific topic. I think it is too late for my mom but it doesn't sound like it's too late for you.

My mom refuses to read any statistics or facts that don't support her beliefs, in fact, she barely reads anything. Her facebook is filled with the most ridiculous anti-men feminist propaganda. That and 'studies' or 'facts' that don't actually exist or are entirely misleading. Possibly the most misinformed person I know, but with feminism your information doesn't matter - only how vocal you are and how much you can humiliate the person(s) with the opposing viewpoints.

So yeah. That's a summary of why I oppose feminism and why men's rights and feminism cannot and will not conjoin. Feminism is a cult and a hate group, MRA/AVFM is an activist movement / humanist organization.

sens1t1vethug · 2013-09-02T08:47:34+00:00

Hello DidosRevenge. There are lots of women who post here already and more are always welcome. As others have said, most people here are really "gender egalitarians" or "equalists" except that they feel they have to provide a counter-balance to the dominant, and often one-sided, perspective on gender equality that comes from feminism today. Men's rights is a reaction to what we see as feminism's one-sidedness, rather than a movement we even want to exist on its own.

Imho /r/mensrights contributes to equality: it provides a space for different opinions to be discussed and it raises awareness of how gender affects men and boys, especially amongst men themselves who often feel their concerns are seen as at best peripheral in feminist spaces, and therefore don't feel very welcome.

I'd say that /r/feminism probably does contribute to women's well-being and does address important issues for women. But not for men, which is the one-sidedness we complain about, since gender roles affect everyone.

oneiorosgrip · 2013-09-02T16:40:19+00:00

In your opinion, does /r/mensrights[1] contribute to equality? Does r/feminism?

In my opinion, these questions don't pertain to the validity of either sub. You are comparing an open forum to a highly censored forum, and applying criteria that doesn't define the value of either one.

/r/mensrights contributes greatly to the dialogue on gender issues, providing a forum for open discussion and the sharing of information - more open, even, than other areas of reddit, where some information and some discussion is banned.

/r/feminism is one of those areas - highly censored, with rules delineating a pro-feminist circle-jerk, it's pretty worthless as a place of discussion.

How many of you would be open to a group/movement that combines mens' rights and feminism?

Why would you encourage male society to ally with their abusers? The legal and social results of feminist activism are part of the causes for several men's issues, including the issue of the legal system encouraging and facilitating false allegation and parental alienation. Established feminism's hateful history and advocacy would make trusting them a foolish move for MRAs.

Feminism hasn't even genuinely fought for women the way feminists claim. Far as I'm concerned, I see feminism as a separate thing from human rights activism focusing on women. Established, mainstream feminist groups are just using us as pawns for their political agenda.

What should such a movement be called?

I'd call it "The lie feminists keep trying to sell to men's rights activists."

How open to a female's opinion is r/mensrights?

Funny you should ask that... it means you're completely unfamiliar with this sub and the movement, because it means you're unfamiliar with all of the women who are involved in the men's rights movement.

Perhaps you should read up a little. Follow the link from that post, to see what the discussion there is all about.

Is a movement towards the rights of men a (sexually) egalitarian movement or rather a movement towards mens' rights while excluding the female perspective?

That question also has no relevance. Pitting men's human rights against women's human rights is a shittty method of obfuscation. What you're suggesting with that question is that while feminists and activists with whom modern feminists claim association have for over a hundred years focused on women, you don't think men should be "allowed" to have their own movement. Do you realize how solipsistic and bigoted that is? You have just identified yourself as part of the problem, by displaying the very attitude that has contributed to social tolerance of the many abuses men face. You've treated men's rights as if they should take a backseat to women; what you've advocated is that there be activism that focuses just on women alongside activism that focuses on both sexes, but no activism that focuses strictly on men.

As a woman, I think the men's rights movement should focus on men, shouldn't be hijacked by activism for women, and shouldn't be hijacked by feminists trying to control its direction. The fact that you guys come in here a couple of times a week with this shit is ridiculous.

rightsbot · 2013-09-02T07:18:17+00:00

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2013-09-02T09:26:55+00:00

I predict that you will show that you are not really interested in men's rights, won't have the courtesy to answer most of the comments and that you will disappear within a few days.

2013-09-02T17:44:55+00:00

Let me be the first to point out that this question would not be permitted in /r/feminism Someone recently posted a very similar question to that subreddit (along the lines of if feminism and mensrights could ever merge and what would come out of it), he was immediatly banned for asking the question.

Go find the post and let that idea bang around the back of your head a bit while you enjoy what others have to say about your question.

2013-09-02T07:36:13+00:00

/r/mensrights contributes to equality by creating a space where people who have views outside of the mainstream can come and talk. Beyond that, it is internet activism which is almost worthless.

The feminists on reddit contribute nothing to equality. They are horrible people that turn people off of feminism and equality by being crazy. And they are ban happy(try posting this question in a feminist space).

I am not sure that a movement fighting for both Men's Rights and feminism is such a good idea. There is a lot of needless strife in between the two groups, it would lack a clear direction, there would be far too many issues and many of the leaders of the feminist movement seem to not like men very much.

I think that rational feminists and MRAs should work together on things they both find immoral. It makes no sense To listen to a small group of people that dictate that the two sides must fight with each other.

As for women in Men's Rights, women have always been accepted in the Men's Rights Movement. Quite a few of our most prominent people are women(Straughn, Pizzey, Young etc.)

What the people here don't like is feminists. I think that's retarded because they are throwing away a massive amount of support from people who care about gender equality just because some of the leaders of the feminist movement hated men.

I believe that most feminists really do care about equal rights. But when the leading feminists(Marcotte, Dworkin, Daly etc.) start attacking men and MRAs the normal feminists start becoming anti MRA. And then when MRAs see this they start attacking feminists and the feminists dislike of MRAs grows and the cycle continues.

anonlymouse · 2013-09-02T08:58:26+00:00

r/feminism doesn't contribute to equality because they censor dissenting views. Censorship is antithetical to equality, as it's always the group with power that censors the group without power.

r/mensrights does contribute to equality as it is open to dissenting views, and therefore self correcting to stick with the goals of equality, and it disseminates little known information about gender inequality.

I wouldn't be open to a group that includes feminism in any explicit fashion, although I wouldn't be opposed to a group that has some feminists in it. Feminism is only sometimes fighting for women's rights, as you'll see silence from feminist university groups when segregated seating is being implemented for presentations. A feminist isn't necessarily a women's rights advocate, although there is a fair amount of overlap between the two.

There are already two movements, which are closely related, that are about equality for everyone - secularism and humanism. There is no need to create a third, as both are doing a good job as is of covering general human rights issues.

There is no objection to a female's opinion here, nor to a feminists, although we're not fond of feminist sycophants who pretend to be MRAs. As a feminist you're welcome here, but we won't take you at your word if you say you're a MRA.

erenthia · 2013-09-02T13:51:32+00:00

oh nice, we've been overdue for our weekly post of this nature for quite some time. That's not sarcasm. While it's been down lately, we used to get posts like this very regularly. There's a lot you'll need to learn to even begin having a dialogue here. In no particular order (aside from the random way they pop into my head) here's a few of the most important:

1) /r/mensrights is a free speech zone, not a safe space. In my time here I've never really seen something like a radical feminist showing up spewing anti-male hate speech, but I imagine if they did they wouldn't be banned at least not on that basis alone, there would have to be a rules violation more legitimate than just saying things we don't like to hear (on the other hand, knowing radical feminism, I imagine that would happen sooner rather than later). Compare that to /r/feminism who will ban people for asking questions that even suggest their underlying ideology is in error. (And when you do get around to trying to start a dialogue with /r/feminism, you'll be banned there too)

2) the general state of things, as I've come to know it, is that radical misandrist feminists are in power (not just in reference to feminist movement itself but most western governments as well). It is to this we refer to when we call feminists bigots. "Normal" feminists are seen to be a mask of normality radfems hide behind when people call them on their sociopathic (yes I mean that literally) beliefs and policies.

3) If you really want to work with us, go native. Learn what we have to say, what our positions our, and what we actually want before you try to add your position. This is only a suggestion (see above about free speech) but it will save you some grief. I'd say at least 50% of the regular posters here know the history of feminism and feminist theory at least as well as your average women's studies professor, and for the few of us with unfortunately short triggers it can be hard to tell the difference between genuine ignorance and willful ignorance. The thing to remember is that no matter how passionate the debate gets, the take away message is usually, "educate yourself" rather than "silence yourself"

4) You'll find that emotionally damaged men who have lost the ability to trust women are not generally considered "dangerous" (even if their positions are not shared by the majority) while radfem women who advocate gendercide or mass castration are taken much more seriously than you'll be familiar with. This is due in large part to the fact that radical feminism has a great deal of real world influence over national governments as compared to the MRM which has little if any political influence.

5) Be prepared. Unlike feminist spaces, MRM spaces will treat you with an assumed level of agency. While at first it may seem as though you're being singled out, you're not. This is why I suggested above to limit your proactive advice at first and ask a lot of questions. The way western society works these days, it can be a shock to anyone (man or woman) to be treated as an adult. I know it was for me.

6) Anything that can be destroyed by the truth, should be.

johntheother · 2013-09-02T07:20:54+00:00

define equality.

edit 1 : " a group/movement that combines mens' rights and feminism" - since feminists have repeatedly demonstrated total hostility to men's rights as a concept - your question appears to be nonsense.

edit 2 : "How open to a female's opinion is r/mensrights?" Erin Pizzey, policy advisor at AVFM on domestic violence. Karen Straughan - possibly the most well know and popular MRA in the western world. Allison Tieman - MRA, co-host on AVFM radio. Dr Tara Palmatier - therapist and webmaster of shrink4men.com. Dr Katherine Young, co-author of a series of books on cultural misandry and co-presenter of a CAFE produced lecture at the U of T. Janet Bloomfield frequent contributor at AVFM and webmaster of judgybitch.com. Diana Davison - frequent contributor at AVfM and the new bane of public feminist Jacalyn Friedman's existence.

I think the men's rights movement has no problem at all with women. It's the sociopaths and predators calling themselves feminists we take not so kindly to, and just about half of those people are male.

edit 3: of course, I hasten to point out that obviously, (sing along with me kids) Not-All-Feminists-Are-Like-That!

2013-09-02T16:59:03+00:00

You have been banned from posting to /r/mensrights

Just kidding ;)

cypher197 · 2013-09-02T07:51:52+00:00

1 - I think it does on net, but sometimes it goes overboard.

2 - I don't know.

3 - many here don't trust the feminist political movement. They would expect the feminists to seize control of a mixed movement. I think it's more important what people do as individuals than their labels.

4 - some would call it "egalitarianism". I have no opinion.

5 - GirlWritesWhat posts here periodically. It's more about the opinion being espoused than the sex.

6 - the MRM does not claim to advocate for womens' rights, but many will be quick to identify as "egalitarian" and state they do not oppose them. Womens' rights are considered beyond the scope of the project.

the_strong_do_eat · 2013-09-02T09:06:28+00:00

I think what you're hinting at is known as humanitarianism. In my opinion, it will be the only logical ideological culmination for a truly egalitarian society.

This present practice of segregating men and women, with their own separate bubbles of rights is only maintained for the benefit of a few power hungry narcissists.

Broken_Castle · 2013-09-02T13:20:13+00:00

Greatings,

There is an idea of equality for all, called egalitarianism, however such a movement is having a very difficult time getting off the ground as most people find themselves wanting to only spend time helping one gender or the other.

Most members of this sub feel that all feminism is radical and of no desire of equality. I would have to disagree in that I personally know many individual persons who seek true equality and call themselves feminists. I would however agree that the vast majority of all organized feminist organisations are radical or outright misandrist (hence the beliefs of most members of this sub).

tarfogog · 2013-09-02T16:41:16+00:00

I have a suggestion OP. Make an MRA account and go make this post over on r/feminism from the MRA perspective. When your post gets deleted and that account gets banned you will still be able to post in this thread. That's why men's rights isn't a collaboration with feminist subs.

HolySchmoly · 2013-09-03T11:14:59+00:00

I would like to see a sub for MRAs and feminists to discuss openly the issues they care about. Right now the feminist sphere in reddist is run like a stalinist gulag. Take just one example. I was recently censured for asking "Is that correct?" at the end of a comment. I was told that was a loaded question because it invited respondents to commit themselves to what may later form part of a contradiction. If you live in the reddifemosphere you most likely have no idea what kind of fortress is protecting you from open debate.

This sub, on the other hand, is not specifically for feminists, so whilst you can come here and debate at will, most likely your head will be crushed by multiple and repeated sledge-hammer blows by the invertebrates that live here.

So I would suggest we need a sub with complete protection for all legal speech, that is, anything that reddit itself doesn't force us to censure.

I don't care what kind of bun fest it turns into, who gets offended, how outnumbered it becomes by one lot over the other. I just don't want anybody banned or censored for saying what they want. Insults, lies..everything must be permitted. And people can leave if they don't like it. Fine. Even good people. And if it ends up degenerating so be it. Let the flame burn while it lasts and die.

"How open to a female's opinion is r/mensrights?" = "I haven't read anything in or about this sub".

This is not a contest between men and women. It is a contest between traditionalists and modernists, and increasingly it's less clear which side feminism is on.

avantvernacular · 2013-09-03T13:12:48+00:00

Hello, /u/didosrevenge

I honestly believe that most feminists feel they are genuinely concerned with equality for both genders. However they suffer from a sort of cognitive dissonance that keeps their actions form matching their intent. When women are disadvantaged relative to men, they are quick to act. When men are disadvantaged relative to women, they will either 1- recognize it but do nothing, 2- ignore or suppress knowledge of the disadvantage, or 3- insist that it is "benevolent sexism" and in actuality is a disadvantage of women. Then end result is that no matter how much feminism claims it is about equality for both genders, in reality it's only about advantages for women. Men are at best an aside to be addressed in the epilogue, and at worst to be held to blame and not helped at all.

Mensrights also believes they are about equality. However the key difference is, they do not claim to be helping women. They are open about this. That does not men they don't care about women or women's issues, or that they won't support them, but when they do they are not doing so as men's rights advocates, they're just doing so as people. We won't lie to you, when we come her it for dealing with men's issues. And that's the difference. We can be honest with ourselves, and our actions can match our words.

2013-09-02T14:23:45+00:00

In your opinion, does /r/mensrights contribute to equality?

Yes, by working on ways in which men are unequal.

Does r/feminism?

I don't frequent r/feminism or anywhere else feminist-oriented because I'm sick to the teeth of being the target of abuse simply for being male. So I can't really comment.

How many of you would be open to a group/movement that combines mens' rights and feminism?

I would absolutely be open to such a thing but would be wary that it may be a way to distract people from the MRM while acting like feminism by paying only lip service to men's issues and in fact working against men. Or that it may employ the same mechanism against women's rights.

What should such a movement be called?

Egalitarianism.

How open to a female's opinion is r/mensrights?

Extremely. Though bear in mind that feelings are not accepted as universal truth here - reasoning or evidence is needed. I see the occasional post that basically says "I'm female and I don't like that you believe this empirical fact, please stop it". /r/mensrights will never be open to posts like that (from either gender, though I've yet to see a man do it).

Is a movement towards the rights of men a (sexually) egalitarian movement or rather a movement towards mens' rights while excluding the female perspective?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. The MRM is not an attempt at male supremacy nor does it advocate male supremacy the way many prominent, well-funded and widely-followed feminists advocate female supremacy.

However, the MRM does not pretend to advocate for women, nor does it pay lip service to women's issues. I would not expect a feminist (or a WRA who avoids associating with feminism) to campaign on women's rights issues under the banner of men's rights - such a thing would be absurd. Feminism has this 'appropriate and erase' tactic where - intentionally or otherwise - they claim that those who want to fix mens issues ought to turn to them and proceed to totally ignore men's issues. The MRM doesn't do that. That doesn't mean the MRM doesn't care about women's issues (well, it varies as a lot of MRAs feel that women are in fact massively overprivileged, but outright misogyny is rare). We're just not going to tell Feminism how to run it's shit when it's not being misandric.

TorontoMike · 2013-09-02T10:32:48+00:00

Well you identify wrongly then, the women's rights movement of the 1970s wanted equality and they won it . Feminism wants total superiority akin to the racial segregation in the US south in the early part of the last century, where they could lynch a black man for looking at a white women, just eliminating the racial part.

I am not sure that their can ever be a joined movement since you look at things like feminism poisoning the atheist movement, the gay rights movement or anything that feminism touches.

0sdfh9hyfd9as · 2013-09-02T14:54:52+00:00

As a woman, is /r/mensrights concerned with gender equality, or just fixing male-oriented problems in society?

I support complete gender equality, but the attitude towards feminism here is a bit disappointing

Don't MRA's and feminists both want gender equality

And hundreds more where that came from: http://breakingtheglasses.blogspot.com/2013/01/for-record.html

ExpendableOne · 2013-09-02T17:50:15+00:00

I am a woman who self-identifies as a "feminist" in the sense that I think that BOTH GENDERS should be EQUAL.

When, if at any time, has feminism ever been about both genders being equal? If you start with the premise that women had always had it worse, or were treated as "less equal", I think you kind of have your basics messed up. How could you ever even pursue equality under that premise?

2013-09-02T20:31:55+00:00

You should look into the books and youtube videos of Warren Farrell.

His basic premise is this: feminism has accomplished som good things. However in the 1980's it took an anti-male slant. This doesn't discredit everything feminism has done, but overall it is no longer a good movement. Farrell believes that what we really need is a gender transition movement, but first we need a men's movement.

r/feminism is terrible. If you don't believe in their ideology, then you're a rape supporter, it adds nothing to gender equality.

There are plenty of women here who are just because they believe in gender equality, and they view feminism as the opposite of that. GirlWritesWhat has plenty of youtube videos.

Men's rights is currently in a struggle to even be heard. Male issues are simply not cared about, and people would rather men die than to ever admit that men have issues. Feminism turns this into a contest, and whoever they determine is oppressed gets to dominate the conversation. And, not surprisingly, feminism has decided that only feminists get a say in gender equality. Men are only allowed to apologize for their original sin, and to parrot the party line.

Listening to those two on youtube will give you a better understanding on gender issues than listening to any response here.

guywithaccount · 2013-09-03T00:29:36+00:00

Feminism believes in patriarchy theory. The MRM doesn't. It is therefore not possible to combine them.

ThePigman · 2013-09-03T01:27:15+00:00

Pardon me for being suspicious of a visitor called named after a famous female trickster...

"Eventually Dido and her followers arrived on the coast of North Africa where Dido asked the Berber king Iarbas for a small bit of land...only as much land as could be encompassed by an oxhide. They agreed. Dido cut the oxhide into fine strips so that she had enough to encircle an entire nearby hill..."

ddrluna · 2013-09-03T02:53:13+00:00

I have perused media from both Men's rights and Feminism. I've noticed a trend amongst both.

Men's rights, though it has its bitter individuals who have already suffered (I can tell, as this type of bitterness only tends to be borne out of experience) injustices or rejections from women, is largely already an egalitarian group--it welcomes newcomers of all genders and offers mostly respectful debates about gender issues and areas where men still face inequalities in the system. Naturally, the focus is on men and that's just fine--it's MEN's rights, men need a group to talk about their issues as much as women. I'm subscribed here because I appreciate that openness and also because I'm not blind to the fact that men face inequalities in this world. As someone abandoned by her mother and physically abused by her stepmother, I readily and fully acknowledge that women are equally capable of abuse and injustice.

HOWEVER, feminism is a different story. Unlike men's rights, they don't offer a reasonable discourse. It's their way or the highway. And in their view, men don't suffer inequalities. Men have "privilege". Men are a part of "patriarchy" and "rape culture" and other meaningless boogiemen terms they come up with to strike fear into people and further their cause at the expense of men. Any group that bans people for even discussing the fact that men just maybe sorta kinda might still have some issues in the world and that they ought to be treated with the same respect... well, that's no group that's fighting for any real and tangible "equality" in my book.

SDcowboy82 · 2013-09-02T08:37:18+00:00

The two movements strike me as being fundamentally opposed to each other, not just in rhetoric but also in execution. Feminists, on the whole, believe that women have equal LEGAL RIGHTS, but are disadvantaged through societal practices. For example, there are no laws that state men should be paid more per hour than women (in fact there are several that prohibit pay discrimination based upon gender), but in society women as a group earn less than men as a group on a total yearly salary basis. Thus feminists seek to enact legislation that is discriminatory to counterbalance built-in societal discrimination (i.e. quotas for women supervisors, etc.).

The MRM, on the other hand, believe that there is legal discrimination against men, and that such discrimination, no matter how well intended, hurts everybody. Looking at my earlier example, quotas for women lead inevitably to lower quality employees being promoted. It should be noted that this is not because the newly elevated employees are women. Rather, the poorer quality stems from the criteria for promoting individuals being based on factors other than individual performance and competency.

Thus when one looks at these two political philosophies, one sees opposite forces. The feminists seeking legal discrimination to fight perceived societal discrimination can only ever go against the MRM seeking to eliminate legal discrimination in all instances. The MRM seeking to eliminate legal discrimination, perceived to weaken society in any instance, can only ever go against feminists fighting to enact discriminatory laws.

Captaincastle · 2013-09-02T08:25:41+00:00

Why don't People ever use the search bar?

rg57 · 2013-09-02T22:43:20+00:00

In my view, while I'm more closely aligned with men's rights because it seems to allow more freedom of speech and doesn't impose rigid gender roles, I find that both feminism and men's rights are fatally flawed, and need to be replaced (not merged into) a gender equality movement that works to ensure equality for male, female, and other humans.

If you believe in equality, you cannot be a feminist, by the name alone. You should re-think who you are identifying with.

theskepticalidealist · 2013-09-02T23:14:25+00:00

A feminist asking if the MRM is open to female voices clearly hasn't spent time looking at the MRM. AVFM is home to some of the most respected MRAs and many are female such as Erin Pizzey, Girlwriteswhat, Typhon Blue and many more. There is even a recent radio show on AVFM with ONLY 3 female cohosts.

AlexReynard · 2013-09-02T23:15:15+00:00

Other people here have left good answers, but here's another point to consider. As of now, feminism has had decades of growth. Feminist ideas of the past are now mainstream ideas. There are women's councils in politics through which all gender-related legislation passes through. Women's issues get orders of magnitude more funding than similar male issues.

Right now, in terms of power, feminism is a steamroller and the men's rights movement is an RC car.

If we joined, we would be swallowed and disappear. As much as we're always open to discussion and support from individuals, I think it's in our best interests right now to remain separate movements.

Pecanpig · 2013-09-03T03:55:30+00:00

does /r/mensrights contribute to equality?

Not so much "contribute" as "support" for the time being.

Does r/feminism?

They are the anti-equality.

How many of you would be open to a group/movement that combines mens' rights and feminism?

Oil and water, it wouldn't work.

Either we have control over the rules (and as such there aren't any for the most part) and Feminists won't show up or Feminists control it and MRA's get kicked out/censored.

What should such a movement be called?

WD-40

How open to a female's opinion is r/mensrights?

As open as we are to a male's opinion, which varies depending on what your opinion is.

Is this a movement towards the rights of men a (sexually) egalitarian movement or rather a movement towards mens' rights while excluding the female perspective?

Equality focusing on men's issues, but you won't find anyone trying to exclude women from education or contraceptives, just people trying to get men that same access.

You're probably going to be downvoted into oblivion, we get a LOT of these kinds of posts to the point where they could be considered spam.

4man · 2013-09-04T02:31:20+00:00

I am a woman who self-identifies as a "feminist" in the sense that I think that BOTH GENDERS should be EQUAL.

You are, therefore, not a mainstream feminist. I expect you'll get some stick for your self-identification though.

In your opinion, does /r/mensrights[1] contribute to equality?

Yes. The community discusses issues that concern men, and distributes information that discredits the popular dialogue concerning women.

Does r/feminism?

No. /r/feminism has posting rules in place that ensure feminism is the primary accepted authority on any topic. It means very little of worth can be discussed as anything critical or questioning of feminist dogma gets a ban.

How many of you would be open to a group/movement that combines mens' rights and feminism?

Not me. Feminists do not value the same things I look for in a social equality movement. In my opinion, feminism is anathema to mens rights, to men in general and competent and capable women.

How open to a female's opinion is r/mensrights? Some highly respected MRAs are women. If a woman is interested and contributes positively to the issues of men's rights then she is welcome. Tone policing, NAFALT arguments and statements of how MRAs are really feminists will get your arguments shot down pretty quickly.

Is a movement towards the rights of men a (sexually) egalitarian movement or rather a movement towards mens' rights while excluding the female perspective?

Women don't have a special or extraordinary perspective because of their sex. People have perspectives based upon education, experience and beliefs. In terms of rights, mens rights addresses issues men face; it isn't important if women may have it worse in some underdeveloped country, or might face issues men do not. Women's issues are that way in /r/feminism --->

I dunno, I'm trying to learn and educate myself as to BOTH sides of the struggle.

Mens Rights is less interested in what sex you are and what gender you identify as and more interested in what you believe and what you think is important about men's issues. This reddit appears to value divergent opinions and challenges to commonly held beliefs more so than the loyal opposition. Though it is a rare feminist that receives support - Warren Farrell being an example.

RoogDoog · 2013-09-05T02:44:52+00:00

I got banned without warning from r/fem for just this question.

2013-09-02T15:18:10+00:00

There was a social progressive movement that has existed way longer than feminism, it is know as egalitarianism. I'm consistently surprised how feminists have never heard of the original concept someone came up with long ago. Feminism is similar with a focus on uperclass women's issues and a grand denial of any non-women issues. I feel feminism could come along way to seeing eye with the mra movement if on some level they admit that the "patriarchy" not only hurts men, but advantages women. Every double standard feminism is tackling has contextual advantages and draw backs. Like the idea women are weak, it feels degrading to be considered this however its helpful when seriously hard tasks are never assigned to you (completely hypothetic I'm not saying women never do hard work). For the record I identify as myself and not fully with either movement, because of the frequent deviance each has toward damning the "enemy".

JohnPeel · 2013-09-02T15:48:09+00:00

Lurk more, read the sidebar.

2013-09-02T15:08:32+00:00

How many of you would be open to a group/movement that combines mens' rights and feminism?

No thanks.

fukuaneveryoneuknow · 2013-09-02T18:24:08+00:00

"feminist" in the sense that I think that BOTH GENDERS should be EQUAL.

I too am sometimes prone to flights of fancy.

does /r/mensrights[1] contribute to equality?

No, we contribute to issues affecting men.

Does r/feminism?

Omg lol!

How many of you would be open to a group/movement that combines mens' rights and feminism?

Never.

It's too little too late for femicunts to make nice, 50 years of being ignored and disregarded, and 50 years of active discrimination doesn't make me keen on calling anyone who is feminist a friend.

So no, fuck you.

What should such a movement be called?

I would tell you where one such already exists, but I refuse to give ammunition to our enemies.

How open to a female's opinion is r/mensrights?

Your gender/sex is irrelevant to your opinion, either you have something worthwhile to say or you don't.

The fact you bothered to ask that question here is a tad offensive though.

Is a movement towards the rights of men a (sexually) egalitarian movement or rather a movement towards mens' rights while excluding the female perspective?

I don't know, you tell me.

Edit: reading through the already posted comments I am once again disappointed by the feminist loving morons here who never seem to learn.

Even lab rats learn better after a few good electric shocks.

Edit2: go ahead, down vote me you fucking uncle tims, you are the cancer killing the male gender.

barbadosslim · 2013-09-02T14:55:21+00:00

/r/MensRights is a reaction to privilege loss. It doesn't fight for equality, but it does fight for looser views of consent, and for complaining about women in general.

e: also they like making up biological or evolutionary reasons for why women are inferior. Similar to /r/hbd.

Title	Hello r/mensrights
Author	didosrevenge
Upvotes	51
Comments	82
Date	September 2, 2013 7:16 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1lkcgp/hello_rmensrights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/hello-rmensrights.1164901 https://theredarchive.com/post/1164901

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