Software engineers from big tech firms like Google, Amazon, Microsoft, and Meta are paying at least $75,000 to get 3 inches taller, a leg-lengthening surgeon says

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Men are always belittled for their appearance. Insults are usually disguised as character flaws. Being called creepy or being called an incel has everything to do with how you look and very little to do with how you behave. A good looking guy sitting in the park gets smiled at, an ugly guy has the police called on him. Ugly women aren’t automatically assumed to be horrible people, they don’t have alternative insults for incel/creepy.

I’m only slightly above average height at 5’11”, but I’ve been called tall by some women in my life. As a kid I didn’t even see it as a compliment, I didn’t give a fuck how tall I was growing up, nor do I care that I’m a bit taller than most of my friends. But when I started to care about being attractive to women I did start to be grateful that I’m not short, because women generally don’t want short guys.

[–]generaldoodle -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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If I’m going to be straightforward this is 100% coming from a place of extreme insecurity and body image issues. The reality is “incel” is an ideological movement and the only times I’ve heard people called that is online when they say something misogynistic. Men are called “creepy” for being pushy and not understanding social cues.

Let’s just take a step back and enter reality for a second, when men act creepy in public women are usually too polite to say anything and all that results is an awkward situation.

good looking people are treated better and have an easier time in life, no one’s arguing that. But no one is calling the police on ugly men.

If you’re trying to argue that this surgery only being done to impress women then men must me 100x more selective about physical appearance because 99% of plastic surgery is done by women

[–]pbj_sammichez 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Gonna butt in here to say... You get labeled creepy any time a woman wants to blame you for her perceptions of you. Too loud? Too quiet? Too sexual? Not sexual enough? Overdressed? Underdressed? I could go on, but creepy is like a catch-all for "He doesn't conform to my expectations and/or doesn't want to." You will hear women describe a guy they never interacted with as creepy because he rubs them the wrong way with his existence.

I'm lucky to be about average height, reasonably good-looking, and to finally have self-esteem (not ego - that was a long internal battle). But even though I don't really suffer from this kind of mistreatment, I still get upset seeing the unjust suffering of other men. I know it's easier to assume it's the outcast's fault for being an outcast, but sometimes a life of conflicting messages and double binds can leave a person confused and angry. I don't like being called creepy. I also don't like when other men are called creepy for being some sort of outlier in regards to some trait.

But empathy is not something men expect. Receiving empathy and support are primarily female experiences. As you have demonstrated with your holier-than-thou rhetoric, the suffering of women is everyone's problem while the suffering of men is no problem at all.

[–]BeautifulTomatillo 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PactScharp 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I can't laugh loud enough at you pretending like you have any clue what it's like being socially outcast in the way that men generally are. What a joke.

I've literally had women slap & push me because they said I was "harassing" them when I literally had no clue they were even there. Just my presence was enough to offend them... maybe I was day-dreaming & it looked I was staring. Maybe I accidentally touched them when I crossed them. I honestly have no clue. But I can tell you that I am very grateful that they didn't call the cops because I truly wouldn't know what to do in that situation.

Women often feel very confident and secure when they have their (female) friends around & they're culturally/socially motivated to "stand up to toxic male oppressors" like they assume I must be. I can visibly tell that it makes them feel good to publicly berate me.

Thing is, I'm not an aggressive person at all. I also score extremely low on neuroticism/volatility. So these experiences don't make me angry, I'm just left confused asking myself wtf just happened. The problem is, because women are far more likely to "object" (even when nothing happened) when they have their little posse around, that also means that if they would ever call the cops, I am 100% sure to get arrested & be labeled a sex offender, because these girls have their "witnesses" by default. And because women's in-group bias is so much larger than men's in-group bias, it's pretty much impossible that their friends will stand up for me.

Like pbj said, receiving empathy and support aren't things we men expect, ESPECIALLY for these sorts of issues/experiences... and you have made it more than clear with your pathetic, "holier-than-thou" rhetoric that you truly couldn't care less either.

[–]KissMyAsthma-99 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The reality is “incel” is an ideological movement and the only times I’ve heard people called that is online when they say something misogynistic.

Then you've not done much reading on reddit.

Things I've been called an incel for:

1) Posting in this sub. When they don't like something I say on an unrelated topic, they go comment history, see this sub, and use the word. This has happened many, many times.

2) Saying that men and women should be treated equally by the government in all ways.

3) Saying that men are worthy of being understood.

4) Saying that sex in a relationship is important.

and plenty of others.

But no one is calling the police on ugly men.

lol. You don't know what it's like to be an ugly man. I've had the police called on me twice while looking after my own children in a public space. 'Creep by the playground!'

If you’re trying to argue that this surgery only being done to impress women then men must me 100x more selective about physical appearance because 99% of plastic surgery is done by women

Faulty syllogism. Men would be happy to sleep with those women prior to surgery. Men don't get the chance to interact at all without it.

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[–]PactScharp 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's a silly premise.

Women are much more afraid of being alone at night or in public than men are. They fear being victimized much more than men, who mostly go about their day without even thinking about being attacked in any way.

Regardless of that, men are statistically MUCH more likely to experience basically any type of violent crime, especially at the hands of a stranger.

Basing your beliefs on people's (in this case women) feelings is foolish at best. As women's feelings aren't actually an accurate reflection of their liability. People mistake women's stress for victimhood & men's silence/obliviousness for privilege.

The truth is that a man is much more likely to be attacked walking home at night than a woman is, even though he's also much less likely to fear that happening in the first place.

Similarly, it may be true that women spend vastly more money on things like plastic surgery & make up or what have you... but that is not concrete proof that women are dealing with higher standards. What it proves (just as with crime) is that women are more SENSITIVE towards these issues. Which makes perfect sense because the biggest gender difference in personality is trait neuroticism. As in: women are much more likely to experience negative emotion (fear, stress, insecurity, etc etc).

What you're basically saying is that person A who stubbed their toe & cried their lungs out dealt with more pain than person B who broke their leg but didn't shed a tear.

Yeah, person A might be a pussy & extremely sensitive to pain, but their reaction doesn't prove that they experienced higher levels of physical trauma than person B.

I think society should be very grateful & happy that men are as naturally stoic as they are. If they weren't & complained as much as women, all we'd be doing is complaining.

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This is 2022, women earn their own money, they don't need to rely on a husband to bring home the bacon. As long as he has an okay job, other factors matter much more. I would rather my daughter be happy, and I know she most likely wouldn't be with an autistic coder. No amount of money can make up for a damp personality, unless of course she is a pure gold digger (but then the guy will probs just get divorce raped).

90% of the coders and software developers I know suck with women. They have no charisma, no charm, no ability to make a woman feel feminine, no leadership ability, and most of them are anti-social af.

Women don't care about Bach, they care about biological evolutionary instincts, and that tells them to go find that big strong 6ft3 good-looking athletic tanned guy with the big penis and great social skills. That's just how they're hardwired based on hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.

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[–]PactScharp 13 points14 points15 points 3 years ago* (27 children) | Copy Link

It's not ignorant at all... Statistics show men's beauty standards towards are actually FAVORABLE, as in: men see women more beautiful than they realistically are. For women it's the opposite. They see men as far uglier than they really are.

You could say that some women feel "forced" to have quadruple Z tits, and that's true, but that's NOT a standard imposed "by men". There aren't really a whole lot of men out there demanding a woman to have at least DD tits otherwise they're worthless.

There are a SHIT TON of women out there unironically saying men should at least be 6 feet tall otherwise they shouldn't even bother.

As far as "historical" standards go, I'd argue both male & female standards have gone up, so the idea that women "had it worse" in the past is dubious at best. People in general are getting more beautiful & by proxy standards are increasing.

So no... male & female standards don't even remotely compare. It's MUCH harder for men, because men can't control many things women seek (height, dick size, etc). Women have full control over what men value the most: don't be a fat pig. Men have control over muscles too, but unlike just "having a healthy/slim body", building muscles requires extreme dedication, work & diet for YEARS.

Now, as far as "blaming" women for some men doing these surgeries goes, I don't agree with that. This is an extreme example that doesn't represent 99% of men. I've never even heard of this type of surgery tbh. The point is simply: women are much harsher than men, period. And this whole pretending that "everything is just as bad for everyone at all times in every area" is patently absurd.

If we can for example acknowledge that it's MUCH harder for women to balance family life with their careers than it is for men... then we can also acknowledge that male beauty standards are far more ludicrous than female standards.

[+]BeautifulTomatillo -9 points-8 points-7 points 3 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

No women are saying the “6 ft”, just because you can find a few dating profiles and TikToks doesn’t mean it’s a majority opinion. It doesn’t exist in the real world

The main reason for plastic surgery is self esteem issues this goes for men and women. The biggest difference being that women are judged far more for their appearance in every aspect of life: making friends, job interviews, running for public office etc where men are not.

Both female and male beauty standards are mainly based on genetics. Men judge women harshly on how beautiful she is - the size of her eyes and nose, how symmetrical her face is, cheekbones etc. all of that is genetically determined. They also care about the size of a woman’s hips and breasts which is 100% genetic.

Men can improve their bodies in the gym to be more “masculine”, women can’t do the opposite.

And no women don’t “seek” dick size that’s just completely ridiculous and comes from a place of watching too much porn and listening to other men on what women want

It may be true that women rate men as less attractive than the other way around but that’s only because women use a lot of non visual factors to determine attraction

[–]PactScharp 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

Lol, "no women"... I have seen that more times than I care to count. In any case, even if it's not "6 ft", women still have pretty unrealistic height standards.

I'm 6'2, so it's not technically an issue that will affect me personally... but as a late bloomer, I know EXACTLY what it's like to be a short dude. I was invisible to women in my teen years. At best, I was treated as a "cute friend", at worst, as trash. So don't tell me that height doesn't really matter all that much to women because it clearly does.

"The biggest difference being that women are judged far more for their appearance in every aspect of life: making friends, job interviews, running for public office etc where men are not."

Oh please... fuck outta here with that bullshit. There is literally ZERO evidence that supports this. Men are also judged in every one of these areas. Don't make shit up because your feminist bias compells you to.

" Men judge women harshly on how beautiful she is"

I'm sorry, "MEN" judge "harshly"? By "judging harshly", is this what you mean? You people always resort to the same bullshit arguments about how "MEN" impose all these "unrealistic" standards, when statistically speaking, men have LOWER standards than they *should* realistically have towards women. The idea that men judge women "harshly" is patently absurd. They quite literally rate women higher than they objectively are. That is the OPPOSITE of harsh ratings.

Meanwhile, women rate 80% of ALL MEN as "ugly" or "below average", but men are the problem? Men are harsher? What a load of bullshit.

" the size of her eyes and nose, how symmetrical her face is, cheekbones etc. all of that is genetically determined. They also care about the size of a woman’s hips and breasts which is 100% genetic."

Men are judged on the exact same things. You literally have zero evidence to support your asinine argument. Also, women can train their hip/butt muscles so the idea that they can't do anything about that is a lie.

"Men can improve their bodies in the gym to be more “masculine”, women can’t do the opposite."

Lol. Women can very much go to the gym (AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORK OUT EVEN 5% AS HARD AS MEN) and achieve what 90% of all men would find a good female physique. Women can control their overall shape & butt. They can't control their breasts, sure... but men can't control their shoulder width either, so it's not just about muscles.

"And no women don’t “seek” dick size that’s just completely ridiculous and comes from a place of watching too much porn and listening to other men on what women want"

Lol. I have an 8 inch dick & I've had women literally tell me I'm "too small". Wtf are you talking about?

"It may be true that women rate men as less attractive than the other way around but that’s only because women use a lot of non visual factors to determine attraction"

Another lie. These ratings are based on dating sites only. So it's 100% physical.

[–]Wqtr100 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PactScharp 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BeautifulTomatillo -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

The average woman is 5’4” and would be happy with someone taller than them. How is that unrealistic. Most men would also like someone shorter than them.

You likely struggled as a teenager because of reasons that had nothing to do with height such as lack of confidence, neediness or a million other things. Being ignored by women doesn’t mean they’re treating you like trash. Most people have an awkward phase, it’s not the end of the world

This is the source, I’m not making it up

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/female-job-applicants-far-more-likely-to-be-judged-on-appearance-study-finds-a6799856.html

Men are judged on the exact same things

I literally said that BOTH genders are judged based on genetic factors. Women more so because men can become wealthier or gain status to make up for their looks

You can’t make your hips wider or waist smaller in the gym that’s not possible. It’s entirely genetic

Dating apps do not reflect reality so you can’t prove anything by using dating apps - there is always an extreme gender imbalance on apps forcing women to be more selective to have a reasonable number of matches - a lot of men are only “liking” women to increase their number of matches or looking for a ONS. Women aren’t doing this - men take worse pictures than women and have worse dating profiles

As you said dating sites are 100% physical meaning personality and character aren’t taken into account. Male and female attraction works differently so in real life interactions it’s significantly more balance

[–]PactScharp 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

"Would be happy" is a very weird way of saying "refuses to date shorter". Yeah, that's right, depending on where you're pulling your numbers from, 96-99% of ALL woman outright REFUSE to date a man who's shorter than they are.

Now, you might say that the "average" woman is "only" 5'4 and "most men" are taller anyway, and that's right. But women don't simply want a man who's "equal or 1 cm taller". They want someone who's *significantly* taller. That's what all the research clearly shows. And before you say "b-bbbut men also want a woman who's shorter", while that is true, men's height preferences aren't nearly as strict as women's are. In other words, the "ideal" female height for men is more generous towards women than the "ideal" male height is for women. And for you to dismiss that struggle as nothing but a bunch of fragile, "online" incel conspiracy nonsense & that "men need to get out more", is a pretty fucking shitty thing to do.

It is a HUGE deal for men & as I said, I personally can attest to that because I used to be very small & I know EXACTLY how women treat you in that case. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

"You likely struggled as a teenager because of reasons that had nothing to do with height"

Lol, shut the fuck up, girl. You don't know a thing about me. Easy for you to speak on behalf of millions of men & pretend that if they only followed your dating guru wisdom, they'd all score Margot Robbie without breaking a sweat.

You are completely & utterly ignorant to the male experience. PERIOD. You can have al lthe confidence in the world, if you're not tall enough, you are immediately written off by most women & there's nothing you can do about it except for dating women with lower height standards.

"such as lack of confidence, neediness or a million other things. Being ignored by women doesn’t mean they’re treating you like trash"

Except they did treat me like trash in many ways. Again, you have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about.

Oh, so now "studies" matter? How very convenient. Funny how numbers don't matter when it comes to research that categorically proves that women hold outright DELUSIONAL standards towards men when it comes to dating... as you outright dismiss these findings just because they are inconvenient to your asinine narrative.

"I literally said that BOTH genders are judged based on genetic factors. Women more so because men can become wealthier or gain status to make up for their looks"

Yes and that's exactly my point. There is no evidence for you to suggest that women are judged "more" than men in terms of appearance. Research based on female BEHAVIOR (not polling) clearly shows that women care just as much, if not MORE than men about looks.

So it's not that "men" can "overcome" being ugly if they get "rich" enough. They have to be attractive AND rich. Not "or". Again, you have no clue what it's like for men in the dating world. You can point to certain exceptions where a few billionaire trolls are dating gold-diggers... but that's just it. That's not "love". These women aren't actually romantically or sexually interested in these men AT ALL. They're glorified hookers and both parties know it.

In terms of *actual* relationships based on *real* attraction, money alone WILL NOT sexually/romantically attract women. Just like looks alone WILL NOT ensure longstanding relationships. As a man, you need both.

As a woman, you mostly "need" one (looks. Obviously you need to have a good personality too, but that's a given for any relationship. Point is women don't have to actually provide anything beyond that, in terms of money, status, power, etc). So because women focus on only "one" thing, it appears (at first glance) that they are judged more harshly on it compared to men... but as I said, that's not the case & the numbers prove it. I repeat: not only do studies prove that women value looks JUST AS MUCH as men, but women also have ridiculously higher standards for looks.

What that means is that even though men care about how "pretty" you are as a woman, the fact of the matter is, men are so stupid & desperate that they will find MOST women inherently attractive anyway. So for you to sit there & suggest that it's harder for women & that the standards imposed on them are higher? That's patently absurd. It's absolutely ludicrous beyond comprehension.

"You can’t make your hips wider or waist smaller in the gym that’s not possible. It’s entirely genetic"

Just like you can't control your height as a man, you can't control how broad your shoulders are, or how slim your hips are (V-shape physique is what men are judged on). And you can very much make your waist smaller. It's called working out, you clown. You can also work on your butt/hips which is literally what 99% of women do in the gym anyway. Perhaps YOU should go out one time, practice what you preach & actually VISIT these gyms before opening your mouth.

"Dating apps do not reflect reality so you can’t prove anything by using dating apps"

Ah yes, keep moving the goalposts... it's always the same fucking story.

"Men aren't really judged on their appearance"

"Yeah they are"

"Okay but nowhere near the same as women"

"Yeah they are"

"Okay but women still have it worse"

"No they don't, here's data"

"But online dating is not reflective of real life"

Seriously, at what point will you accept reality & acknowledge that women today have insane standards towards men? You can dismiss "online dating" as much as you want, but research based on speed-dating for example (aka, real life interactions) produce EXACTLY THE SAME results. Furthermore, online dating is quickly becoming the most popular way of dating & meeting new people (20 years ago, it was barely 5% or something, while today it's over 40% & it's still rising).

So you can claim that "online dating" doesn't "reflect real life" all you want... the fact of the matter is, it DOES & it's becoming the new status quo... and the only reason you won't acknowledge that is because you're too much of a coward to admit that women are becoming unrealistic as that would implode your pathetic, misandrist worldview.

"there is always an extreme gender imbalance on apps forcing women to be more selective to have a reasonable number of matches"

Forcing women? You keep telling yourself that.

"a lot of men are only “liking” women to increase their number of matches or looking for a ONS. Women aren’t doing this"

That's not how the algorithm works.

"men take worse pictures than women and have worse dating profiles"

Blablabla... more feminist worldsalad instead of acknowledging the simple truth that women are unrealistic.

"As you said dating sites are 100% physical meaning personality and character aren’t taken into account."

And as I said, real life dating research produces the same results.

[–]BeautifulTomatillo -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Let me just make sure I understand all the absurd claims your making here - women require someone significantly taller than them - women care about looks just as much as men - real life dating research shows that it is the same as OLD - the only women that date ugly men are gold diggers

You haven’t linked a single real study so you can’t accuse me of not taking into account research

You’re making the claim that you need to be physically attractive and rich to have a gf. How is it possible that >70% of men are in relationships then. Can you at least make your claims somewhat based in reality.

In my life I’ve seen COUNTLESS unattractive men be incredibly sexually sucessfull just off confidence/charisma, so have most people

I said women are judged more for their appearance in the work sector, as in applying for jobs. I would also say that men rating most women as physically attractive ≠ men care less about looks, it could just be the case that the average women IS more physically attractive than the average man.

Unlike the men here my self esteem isn’t determined by sexual attention from the opposite gender so I’m not gonna go to the gym in a futile attempt to reshape my body to what men want. Im just stating a FACT that the size of your hips is determined by BONE structure, which a simple google search can tell you. You can make your ass bigger in the gym and you can lose weight, you can’t reshape your body into an hourglass front profile with bigger hips and a smaller waist.

I never said that men aren’t judged for their appearance. My entire point about how “women have it worse” is because of gender specific grooming rituals such as shaving

Are you really acting like swiping on a blurry picture of someone is the same as having a long conversation with them IRL. Don’t most men constantly complain about being catfished or women being dry texters ? It’s automatically different because there is no gender imbalance IRL like there is online

The way I see it men are responsible how bad OLD is today, the majority of women on dating apps have been stalked and sexually harassed leading to them leaving the app.

Think about this for a second. Let’s say men swipe on 100 women, 20 of them they want to date, 40 of them they want to sleep with, and 40 of them they swiped without looking. That’s only 20 genuine likes.

So because women know that every single guy they swipe on they’re going to match with they’re only gonna like 10 to be able to maintain conversations with all those 10. This problem is exasturbated because of the gender imbalance

Studies show that the more FAMILIARITY you have with someone the more attracted you are to them. That means spending significant time with them over a prolonged period. This is IMPOSSIBLE through OLD. More people spending time on apps instead of going outside is just worsening the problem you’re complaining about so much, if men went outside more they’d be judged less on looks and more on personality

Nothing I’ve said is misandristic but you’ve said multiple misogynistic things to me so that’s incredibly rich.

I’ve seen many profiles of both men and women. Mens are objectively worse and there’s no question. That isn’t even a feminist stance

[–]PactScharp2 points 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"women require someone significantly taller than them"

Objectively the case, yes. If that offends you, blame women, not me(n).

(Women prefer men to be 8 inches taller, if the average woman is 5'4, that means women want men to be 6' tall, something you EXPLICITLY DENIED was the case).

"women care about looks just as much as men"

Objectively the case, yes. If that offends you, blame women, not me(n).

(Research that compares women's WORDS with their BEHAVIOR. The most ironic part of this research is that when you ask women about the preferences that *other women* have, suddenly they are all in agreement that "looks" will matter the most to them. But somehow they still have the gall to pretend like they themselves do not care. Now, I'm not saying I think women are bad for caring about looks. I'm saying it's bad to LIE about it).

"real life dating research shows that it is the same as OLD"

Objectively the case, yes. If that offends you, blame women, not me(n).

"the only women that date ugly men are gold diggers"

I never said that. I said that pointing out how a couple of hideous billionaires can still score (hot) women, would not prove that "women don't care about looks (as long as you're rich)" because such a """relationship""" (if we can even call it that) is not based on love/attraction.

There are ugly men in relationships sure... they're dating even uglier women because the general truth in dating is that women always date up.

"You haven’t linked a single real study so you can’t accuse me of not taking into account research"

Projection. The funny part is that these things are SO fucking self-evident & obvious to anyone with half a brain that it shouldn't even need to be "proved". But sure, I've provided some links now.

"You’re making the claim that you need to be physically attractive and rich to have a gf"

No I'm making the claim that you need to be MORE physically attractive and RICHER than the girl you're dating.

"How is it possible that >70% of men are in relationships then"

A pretty dishonest picture you're painting here... For young men, more than half are single. Also important to state that when men are single, they are usually still looking. When women are single, it's usually out of choice. Women only are more likely to be single as they pass their 50s, and again, it's usually out of choice & the main contributing factor to that (especially for 65+) is that men die sooner.

"Can you at least make your claims somewhat based in reality"

It's hilarious that you reject reality when I have literally just proved everything I said. You fucking moron.

"In my life I’ve seen COUNTLESS unattractive men be incredibly sexually sucessfull just off confidence/charisma, so have most people"

No you haven't. You literally made this shit up right here on the spot & you have the nerve to lecture me about "living in reality". Also, as I already explained, even if you have seen a few "examples" of that (certainly not """countless"""), it's not that these men were *actually* unattractive... you simply PERCEIVED them as such.

"I said women are judged more for their appearance in the work sector, as in applying for jobs"

No, you said women are judged more for their appearance in basically every way. Also, I don't take stupid articles seriously & I would also suggest that people are inherently blind to the ways in which men are judged on their looks. Take Trump for example. No one ever said anything about how "harshly" he was judged for his looks, as POTUS.

And yet... he was mocked extensively for his hair, even though 90% of men experience balding at some point in his life.

He was mocked extensively for his skin color, creating the whole "orange man bad" meme.

He was mocked extensively for his hand size, alluring to his dick being small.

All of these things are CLEARLY him being judged on his appearance & yet no one complained because we don't "perceive" it as "men being judged for their looks". And yet when some generic female senator is judged for something she wore, the feminists are always first in line, writing hundreds of articles about some imaginary "patriarchy" holding women back & pushing "systemic misogyny" or some bullcrap.

Now, I'm not saying that men are the ones who "really" are judged more harshly in the workplace (on their looks). I'm saying I don't think we actually know the real answer to that, and I would suggest it's MUCH closer to being gender neutral than feminist hypocrites like you would like to admit, precisely for the aforementioned reasons: we are simply blind to "prejudice" towards men that we would immediately call out if applied to women.

"I would also say that men rating most women as physically attractive ≠ men care less about looks"

I never made that claim. YOU DID. I specifically explained how these are indeed two seperate issues... and on BOTH accounts, women are just as "bad" if not worse.

"it could just be the case that the average women IS more physically attractive than the average man."

That makes zero statistical sense.

"Unlike the men here my self esteem isn’t determined by sexual attention from the opposite gender"

Of course it is.

"so I’m not gonna go to the gym in a futile attempt to reshape my body to what men want"

And voila, there we have it. You don't feel the need to work on your body because you aren't the one being judged & held to such delusional, insane, RIDICULOUS standards. Of course you would feel okay in your out-of-shape body because most men will happily take you anyway. You literally are proving my point that men's standards are much lower than women's.

"Im just stating a FACT that the size of your hips is determined by BONE structure"

Just like I stated the FACT that the size of your shoulders & hips is ALSO determined by BONE STRUCTURE. Just as your height is. Just as your dick size is determined by genetics. I have no clue why you keep doubling down on this futile argument when it also applies to men.

"You can make your ass bigger in the gym and you can lose weight, you can’t reshape your body into an hourglass front profile with bigger hips and a smaller waist."

So you can decrease your waist by getting leaner & increase your butt by working out (aka, achieving an hourglass figure), but at the same time, you can't reshape your body into an hourglass figure? Do you even pretend to know what you're talking about?

These are mutually exclusive statements. If you acknowledge that women can work on their waist & butt in the gym (which is objectively the case) then you can't say that it's impossible for women to attain a more "hourglass" like physique in the same breath.

"I never said that men aren’t judged for their appearance"

And yet you keep tripping over yourself to say that it's nowhere near the same as how women are judged, despite all evidence to the contrary.

[–]PactScharp1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"My entire point about how “women have it worse” is because of gender specific grooming rituals such as shaving"

What the actual fuck are you even talking about? Grooming rituals??? Shaving??? Complaining that women have to "shave their body hair to be considered feminine/attractive" is like me(n) complaining that I have to cut my nails to be considered masculine/attractive.

From a purely logical standpoint, neither really makes all that much sense... to be honest, the "male disgust" for female body hair makes "more" biological sense because body hair is linked with testosterone & therefore it's only logical that the lack of body hair is linked with femininity. Whereas I see no biological explenation whatsoever for why men "should" cut their nails short while it's okay for women to have huge ass nails.

Not that I'm complaining. I think long nails are disgusting. I don't see it as "unfair". I'm just saying, your argument is absolutely ridiculous.

"Are you really acting like swiping on a blurry picture of someone is the same as having a long conversation with them IRL"

I don't see how it's relevant. The point is that online dating is becoming the new standard. What used to be the norm (meeting through friends), which btw is what I would consider "ideal", is quickly dying out. Meeting through online dating is now the most popular way of meeting people. So even IF your argument was true, it simply would not be relevant in our current landscape.

"Don’t most men constantly complain about being catfished or women being dry texters?"

Catfished? I've never seen that. Dry texters? Absolutely. Just as men very often complain about that in REAL LIFE conversations. Because the gender dynamics stay exactly the same whether you're talking through text or IRL. Which is: the man needs to prove himself & the woman just has to sit there and judge. Why do you think that studies show men actually talk more during (first) dates than women? I think it's wildly ironic that feminists use this as some "gotcha" against men, when all it proves is that men are the ones who need to constantly "prove" themselves.

I can tell you right now, my dating life improved a thousand fold once I stopped giving a fuck about what women really think of me & once I figured out it has zero use trying to prove my "worth" to them. Most women will not even so much as try to bring anything to the table when it comes to dating. If I sense they don't engage, I'm out. The fact that you think "men complaining about women being dry texters" is only relegated to online dating, really proves how you've never actually had a single meaningful discussion about this with a man... which is highly ironic considering that's all you preach.

"It’s automatically different because there is no gender imbalance IRL like there is online"

Lmfao, you're fucking clueless.

"The way I see it men are responsible how bad OLD is today, the majority of women on dating apps have been stalked and sexually harassed leading to them leaving the app."

Lol, more feminist bullshit you just pulled out of your ass. There's no such thing as "sexual harassment" and "stalking" with online dating. If you don't like the guy, ghost him, delete him or block him. If it's actually serious, report him.

But as per freaking usual, it's ALWAYS men's fault. As if I haven't heard that one a billion times before. Like I said, shut the fuck up.

"Think about this for a second. Let’s say men swipe on 100 women, 20 of them they want to date, 40 of them they want to sleep with, and 40 of them they swiped without looking. That’s only 20 genuine likes."

I will not address this argument because it's based on a false premise & you have no clue what men think. It also has fuck all to do with sexual harassment, you clown.

"if men went outside more they’d be judged less on looks and more on personality"

Not true. And even if it was, the same would apply to women rendering your whole "women have it worse" argument moot.

"Nothing I’ve said is misandristic but you’ve said multiple misogynistic things to me so that’s incredibly rich."

Name me one single thing I said that's "misogynistic". I fucking dare you.

"I’ve seen many profiles of both men and women. Mens are objectively worse and there’s no question. That isn’t even a feminist stance"

I'm sure it's just that and not anything else...

[–]KissMyAsthma-991 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Let me just make sure I understand all the absurd claims your making here

women require someone significantly taller than them

women care about looks just as much as men

Not the person you're responding to, but yes, both of those are accurate when you are speaking from an aggregate.

real life dating research shows that it is the same as OLD

Well, speed dating, yes. It's been pretty well researched and well known for a long time that when time is a controlled variable, women are MUCH more looks focused than men. It's so well known that it's actually a pretty common theme in pop culture. See: House M.D., S06E15

the only women that date ugly men are gold diggers

No, but finding a woman who will date an ugly, short dude is yes, probably one.

You haven’t linked a single real study so you can’t accuse me of not taking into account research

If you are the only one that gets to define real, it's going to be difficult for him to respond.

You’re making the claim that you need to be physically attractive and rich to have a gf. How is it possible that >70% of men are in relationships then. Can you at least make your claims somewhat based in reality.

I don't think that's what he's saying. If he is, he's wrong.

In my life I’ve seen COUNTLESS unattractive men be incredibly sexually sucessfull just off confidence/charisma, so have most people

Doubtful.

I said women are judged more for their appearance in the work sector, as in applying for jobs.

Maybe, maybe not. Men's height is statistically significant when applying for jobs and receiving raises and promotions. There's research on that, too.

Regardless, his comments seem to be keying in on the dating marketplace, not the job market.

I would also say that men rating most women as physically attractive ≠ men care less about looks, it could just be the case that the average women IS more physically attractive than the average man.

lol. No.

I never said that men aren’t judged for their appearance. My entire point about how “women have it worse” is because of gender specific grooming rituals such as shaving

Yes, because 10 minutes in the shower is SO much worse than *checks notes* genetics and hundreds of hours in the gym. Woe is you.

Are you really acting like swiping on a blurry picture of someone is the same as having a long conversation with them IRL.

Are you really under the impression that women will give just any man the opportunity to have the conversation in the first place?

Don’t most men constantly complain about being catfished or women being dry texters ? It’s automatically different because there is no gender imbalance IRL like there is online

It's not, because until the barrier is pierced, no opportunity exists to have the conversations you're suggesting.

The way I see it men are responsible how bad OLD is today, the majority of women on dating apps have been stalked and sexually harassed leading to them leaving the app.

Bullshit.

Think about this for a second. Let’s say men swipe on 100 women, 20 of them they want to date, 40 of them they want to sleep with, and 40 of them they swiped without looking. That’s only 20 genuine likes.

I thought I was good with math, but you lost me. Let me try.

20+40 = 60.

Nope, I was right, it's you who sucks at math. Just because there's a different goal doesn't make it illegitimate or disingenuous.

So because women know that every single guy they swipe on they’re going to match with they’re only gonna like 10 to be able to maintain conversations with all those 10. This problem is exasturbated because of the gender imbalance

If that's true, women suck at texting. It's NOT difficult to have conversations with multiple people.

Studies show that the more FAMILIARITY you have with someone the more attracted you are to them. That means spending significant time with them over a prolonged period. This is IMPOSSIBLE through OLD. More people spending time on apps instead of going outside is just worsening the problem you’re complaining about so much, if men went outside more they’d be judged less on looks and more on personality

Nope, because, once again, you must be given the opportunity to have those conversations. How do you suggest making that happen with a stranger? Or do you restrict your dating pool to your friend group, which inevitably leads to the friendzone, which you'll then be criticized for because then 'she never really had a friend, just a dude that wanted to sleep with her?'

Nothing I’ve said is misandristic but you’ve said multiple misogynistic things to me so that’s incredibly rich.

Wrong, you've said misandristic things.

I’ve seen many profiles of both men and women. Mens are objectively worse and there’s no question. That isn’t even a feminist stance

I disagree with both. Women's profile are often absolutely terrible. Some men's are, too, but they are usually better than women's.

[–]BeautifulTomatillo0 points 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not the person you're responding to, but yes, both of those are accurate when you are speaking from an aggregate.

Any evidence ?

Well, speed dating, yes. It's been pretty well researched and well known for a long time that when time is a controlled variable, women are MUCH more looks focused than men. It's so well known that it's actually a pretty common theme in pop culture. See: House M.D., S06E15

A tv show isn’t a source, the study he linked actually proved the OPPOSITE that women care less about looks then men

No, but finding a woman who will date an ugly, short dude is yes, probably one.

I would ask for a source but it doesn’t exist. I have seen this happen with my own eyes

If you are the only one that gets to define real, it's going to be difficult for him to respond.

Real as in it exists

I don't think that's what he's saying.

He explicitly did

Men's height is statistically significant when applying for jobs and receiving raises and promotions. There's research on that, too.

That doesn’t discount what I’m saying at all.

lol. No.

You’re saying no but women spend significantly more time on their looks

Yes, because 10 minutes in the shower is SO much worse than checks notes genetics and hundreds of hours in the gym. Woe is you.

It doesn’t take 10 minutes to shave your entire body eyebrows down and women are judged for their genetics more so than men. As you said men can make up for their looks by being wealthy/high status

Are you really under the impression that women will give just any man the opportunity to have the conversation in the first place?[…] It's not, because until the barrier is pierced, no opportunity exists to have the conversations you're suggesting

Classmates, work colleagues, volunteering, museum tours, bars, parties, hiking groups, walking tours, soup kitchens

All of these are opportunities to talk to and get to know women. You don’t need to be in a friend group to have a social interaction with some. Join a group activity and interact with the people there, go to a bar.

Bullshit.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/06/young-women-often-face-sexual-harassment-online-including-on-dating-sites-and-apps/

Nope, I was right, it's you who sucks at math. Just because there's a different goal doesn't make it illegitimate or disingenuous.

That’s fair enough but I think we can both agree that the majority of women aren’t looking for that so the result is the same.

If that's true, women suck at texting. It's NOT difficult to have conversations with multiple people.

Yes because that is so romantic. THIS is the problem with OLD, viewing the person you’re speaking to as replaceable and one of many. It’s too impersonal

Wrong, you've said misandristic things.

You’re gonna have to provide evidence for that claim

I disagree with both. Women's profile are often absolutely terrible. Some men's are, too, but they are usually better than women's.

Objectively false, women usually with at the very least have a clear photo of their face, 50% of men can’t even reach that fundamental bar

[–]KissMyAsthma-991 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Any evidence ?

Yes, and it's been provided to you.

A tv show isn’t a source, the study he linked actually proved the OPPOSITE that women care less about looks then men

Nor did I claim it was.

I would ask for a source but it doesn’t exist. I have seen this happen with my own eyes

Doubtful.

Real as in it exists

Thank you for evidencing my point.

That doesn’t discount what I’m saying at all.

Your argument was that women's looks matter more in the job market. I am discussing ways that men's looks matter in the job market. The argument from there would be which one is 'more.' It's a starting point for analyzing your argument. Surely you understand that?

You’re saying no but women spend significantly more time on their looks

Women spend more time shoe shopping than men, too, but that's not proof that women's shoe choices matter to men. Your argument isn't causal.

It doesn’t take 10 minutes to shave your entire body eyebrows down

I mean, maybe if you haven't done it for a year, but I've watched my wife do it in less than 10 pretty commonly.

and women are judged for their genetics more so than men.

No, they aren't. However, we could be cross communicating. What do you mean by judged?

As you said men can make up for their looks by being wealthy/high status

Which is radically more difficult than what men require from women.

Classmates, work colleagues, volunteering, museum tours, bars, parties, hiking groups, walking tours, soup kitchens

All of these are opportunities to talk to and get to know women. You don’t need to be in a friend group to have a social interaction with some. Join a group activity and interact with the people there

Exactly the advice I gave someone else, and I agree with it. However, that is still going to be radically more difficult for men to get a date from that strategy than women.

, go to a bar.

No, this is terrible advice.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/06/young-women-often-face-sexual-harassment-online-including-on-dating-sites-and-a

Shitty research is shitty research. Self-reported studies are worth less than the toilet paper in my cupboard.

You’re gonna have to provide evidence for that claim

The way I see it men are responsible how bad OLD is today, the majority of women on dating apps have been stalked and sexually harassed leading to them leaving the app.

Blaming men for something that is AT WORST a shared blame is misandristic, and that's without even looking through your other posts for misandry.

Objectively false, women usually with at the very least have a clear photo of their face, 50% of men can’t even reach that fundamental bar

Hahahahahahaha!

Objectively, you're delusional.

Men know that women are hyper-visual on OLD. They KNOW that women will reject any man that isn't an 8/10. As such, what is the motivation to show your face unless you are objectively handsome?

Men are simply being strategic.

[–]BeautifulTomatillo1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, and it's been provided to you.

For the height thing yes, as I said the study showing women care more about looks actually had the opposite conclusion

Your argument was that women's looks matter more in the job market. I am discussing ways that men's looks matter in the job market. The argument from there would be which one is 'more.' It's a starting point for analyzing your argument. Surely you understand that?

My source already showed womens looks matter MORE than mens already, if you can find something that shows the opposite then you can disprove my point

Women spend more time shoe shopping than men, too, but that's not proof that women's shoe choices matter to men. Your argument isn't causal.

It shows women put more time, effort and consideration into their looks and being physically attractive. You can focus on shoes but there’s also: shapewear, push up bras, makeup, plastic surgery and hair removal and many other things that men do notice and like.

I mean, maybe if you haven't done it for a year, but I've watched my wife do it in less than 10 pretty commonly.

This is just a straight up lie, if it were this easy then waxing and laser hair removal wouldn’t be multi million dollar industries which employ thousands of people

No, they aren't. However, we could be cross communicating. What do you mean by judged?

Men only take into account looks but women consider many other things like: stability, intelligence and confidence. Therefore men can make up for their deficits

Which is radically more difficult than what men require from women.

Only if you’re already an attractive woman

Exactly the advice I gave someone else, and I agree with it. However, that is still going to be radically more difficult for men to get a date from that strategy than women.

True

No, this is terrible advice.

Why

Blaming men for something that is AT WORST a shared blame is misandristic, and that's without even looking through your other posts for misandry.

Ok that’s true I was being hyperbolic

Men know that women are hyper-visual on OLD. They KNOW that women will reject any man that isn't an 8/10. As such, what is the motivation to show your face unless you are objectively handsome?

Of course they’re hyper visual. What is there to go off of except for pictures and a couple of words. The other guy was arguing that OLD is the EXACT SAME as meeting people IRL, when for the majority of men you can’t even see their face at all!

It isn’t strategic, its just going to cause women who aren’t completely desperate to swipe left automatically. I also don’t think these men are doing it intentionally, I think they are either self conscious or lack the social awareness

[–]KissMyAsthma-991 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

For the height thing yes, as I said the study showing women care more about looks actually had the opposite conclusion

Either I'm crossing threads, or you're nuts.

My source already showed womens looks matter MORE than mens already, if you can find something that shows the opposite then you can disprove my point

It was provided to you already and you claim it reached an opposite conclusion.

It shows women put more time, effort and consideration into their looks and being physically attractive. You can focus on shoes but there’s also: shapewear, push up bras, makeup, plastic surgery and hair removal and many other things that men do notice and like.

Right, but none of which are essential within the dating marketplace. Women can succeed without any of it. Men cannot.

This is just a straight up lie, if it were this easy then waxing and laser hair removal wouldn’t be multi million dollar industries which employ thousands of people

We may have different definitions of hair removal. I'm talking pits, legs to the hemline, and a bit of bikini. Perhaps you are literally shaving your entire body. If so, that's more for you than it is because men care.

Men only take into account looks but women consider many other things like: stability, intelligence and confidence. Therefore men can make up for their deficits

You keep saying that. You keep ignoring that they have to first be given a chance. Many men are not solely based on their looks.

Only if you’re already an attractive woman

No. The only thing that's hard is if you've allowed yourself to gain a ton of weight. My advice would be... don't do that. True for men and women, but more for women.

No, this is terrible advice.

Because the only men who have success in bars are attractive. Bars are the real life equivalent of OLD.

Ok that’s true I was being hyperbolic

Don't deflect: You were being misandristic.

It isn’t strategic, its just going to cause women who aren’t completely desperate to swipe left automatically.

That... that is the strategic part?

Unattractive men know that the only women they have a chance with on OLD are desperate women. Their choices to only attract those women are strategic.

Have you ever wondered why idiotic 'Nigerian prince' scams never get much better? It's strategic: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/WhyFromNigeria.pdf

Seriously, read through that and reflect. Please.

I also don’t think these men are doing it intentionally, I think they are either self conscious or lack the social awareness

More misandry. Assuming that men are stupid or scared because they are behaving in ways that work to their own advantage instead of the way women would like them to.

[–]BeautifulTomatillo1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Either I'm crossing threads, or you're nuts.

Why don’t you actually READ IT before making stupid accusations. I’m going to link it

https://www.kaggle.com/code/jph84562/the-ugly-truth-of-people-decisions-in-speed-dating

**We can see that there is a great difference between what male and female participants are looking for.

For male participants, the attractiveness of the female is given a lot more weight, and the ambitiousness or if they have any shared interset are ranked not as high.

For females, the points are more evenly distributed across all of the attributes, with intelligence ranked slightly higher compared to others.

Conlusion Men are looking for attractive women, and are less concerned with a woman’s abmition and shared interests. On the other hand, women are looking for a well-rounded male and value intelligence in a man.**

It was provided to you already and you claim it reached an opposite conclusion.

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Right, but none of which are essential within the dating marketplace. Women can succeed without any of it. Men cannot.

Men can’t succeed without makeup and shape wear? This is irreverent to my original point which was women put more effort into their looks therefore the average woman is more attractive than the average man

We may have different definitions of hair removal. I'm talking pits, legs to the hemline, and a bit of bikini. Perhaps you are literally shaving your entire body. If so, that's more for you than it is because men care.

Still doesn’t take 10 minutes

You keep saying that. You keep ignoring that they have to first be given a chance. Many men are not solely based on their looks.

That is true for both genders

No. The only thing that's hard is if you've allowed yourself to gain a ton of weight. My advice would be... don't do that. True for men and women, but more for women.

Let’s re-enter the real world for a second. If you have buck teeth, a misshaped nose, small eyes or a million other possible facial imperfections you’re not going to be considered physically attractive

Because the only men who have success in bars are attractive. Bars are the real life equivalent of OLD.

I’ve seen firsthand that the opposite is true

Unattractive men know that the only women they have a chance with on OLD are desperate women. Their choices to only attract those women are strategic.

These desperate women are going to swipe on them even if they are ugly, so what is the strategy here ?

More misandry. Assuming that men are stupid or scared because they are behaving in ways that work to their own advantage instead of the way women would like them to.

It’s funny how the men on this subreddit hate feminists so much but act exactly like them. Hiding your face and body just shows that your unhappy with yourself and embarrassed of your body. It’s incredibly childish. Obese women act the same by only posting pic that are heavily filtered and from the neck up

[–]KissMyAsthma-991 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why don’t you actually READ IT before making stupid accusations. I’m going to link it

https://www.kaggle.com/code/jph84562/the-ugly-truth-of-people-decisions-in-speed-dating

**We can see that there is a great difference between what male and female participants are looking for.

For male participants, the attractiveness of the female is given a lot more weight, and the ambitiousness or if they have any shared interset are ranked not as high.

For females, the points are more evenly distributed across all of the attributes, with intelligence ranked slightly higher compared to others.

Conlusion Men are looking for attractive women, and are less concerned with a woman’s abmition and shared interests. On the other hand, women are looking for a well-rounded male and value intelligence in a man.**

It's always fun when a participant in a debate blindly Googles and then posts the results without actually, you know, reading the results. You quoted the STATED desires, but the actual desires? Yeah, those are at the end. I'll quote them for you:

"Females’ stated interest and actual influence of these attributes are all far off, underestimating the power of attractiveness, shared interest, and fun, while thinking and telling people that they want a sincere, intelligent, and ambitious male."

In other words, you just owned yourself.

Still doesn’t take 10 minutes

You're right, it takes like 5-7.

That is true for both genders

It's really, really not.

Let’s re-enter the real world for a second. If you have buck teeth, a misshaped nose, small eyes or a million other possible facial imperfections you’re not going to be considered physically attractive

That's true, if you're a 1/10, it's going to be tough for you regardless. That said, a skinny, 1/10 woman can probably still get laid without paying for it. A skinny, 1/10 male... cannot. Granted, I recognize that isn't what women are looking for, but it's more than nothing. Skinny, 1/10 men aren't getting laid OR getting into relationships. That's less.

I’ve seen firsthand that the opposite is true

You and I have lived very different lives.

These desperate women are going to swipe on them even if they are ugly, so what is the strategy here ?

No. Even desperate women are at least somewhat picky. They are highlighting what the believe will be most compelling and hoping that women can keep on their horny goggles once they meet.

It’s funny how the men on this subreddit hate feminists so much but act exactly like them. Hiding your face and body just shows that your unhappy with yourself and embarrassed of your body. It’s incredibly childish. Obese women act the same by only posting pic that are heavily filtered and from the neck up

Hardly. I'm about equality. I'd call an obese woman's choice to hide her fatness strategic as well. Both are logical.

[–]BeautifulTomatillo1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's always fun when a participant in a debate blindly Googles and then posts the results without actually, you know, reading the results.

What is wrong with you. I DIDNT GOOGLE IT AS IVE BEEN SAYING THIS WAS THE STUDY LINKED

In other words, you just owned yourself.

Not really, speed dating is too similar to OLD and too artificial to prove anything

You're right, it takes like 5-7.

So again we’re not living in reality here, why don’t you try it and time yourself.

It's really, really not.

Women get rejected ALL the time.

but it's more than nothing

Maybe for some, for most it’s putting your physical safety and health at risk and comes with no benefit. I can’t say

No. Even desperate women are at least somewhat picky. They are highlighting what the believe will be most compelling and hoping that women can keep on their horny goggles once they meet.

The reality is that I can most of the men who don’t this are average and some are even handsome - I’m guessing. And don’t realise they’re doing this, probably because men don’t know how to market themselves sexually. It’s just the sheer numerber of profiles like this that lead me to this conclusion

[–]KissMyAsthma-991 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What is wrong with you. I DIDNT GOOGLE IT AS IVE BEEN SAYING THIS WAS THE STUDY LINKED

Damn, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. That's even worse.

Not really, speed dating is too similar to OLD and too artificial to prove anything

Ah, so now that you got caught, you're saying it doesn't count. CLASSIC!

So again we’re not living in reality here, why don’t you try it and time yourself. You sound delusional

I've watched it dozens of times. It's you denying reality, unless you're a gorilla or something.

Women get rejected ALL the time.

If you think women get rejected a lot, you should see what men go through. Every left swipe is a rejection.

Maybe for some, for most it’s putting your physical safety and health at risk and comes with no benefit. I can’t say

Alrighty. Point carries.

And don’t realise they’re doing this, probably because men don’t know how to market themselves sexually. It’s just the sheer numeral of profiles like this that lead me to this conclusion

Right, misandry. I got you the first time.

[–]IceCorrect 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]BeautifulTomatillo -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]PactScharp 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Go outside you’ll see average or ugly men in relationships all the time.

Except you don't... You PERCEIVE them as being "ugly" because you're a woman & women see men as drastically less attractive than they really are.

In other words, when you see a 2/10 man walking around with a woman (let's say she's a 6), what that actually means from an objective standpoint is that he's a 6 or 7 walking around with a 6/10 woman.

Most women aren't attractive enough to take advantage of that? LOL. 80% of ALL women go after the top 20% of men. That leaves the "bottom" 80% of men competing for the bottom 20% of women.

Statistically, a 2/10 woman still demands an 8/10 man... The idea that (most) women "don't really have that option" is pure fucking ignorance on your part.

It never stops to amaze me how women are genuinely clueless & oblivious to their own massive dating advantage & power over men.

Ever heard of the Gini coefficient? It represents how much inequality there is in a particular system or group by comparing it to economic inequality. If modern dating was a "country" so to speak, then it would be one of THE most unequal in the world, sitting at the 95th percentile of MOST unequal countries on Earth. For reference, that's higher than freaking Venezuela & just below South-Africa. That is the reality that men are dealing with & it blows my mind how women (like you) are so fucking clueless to this.

Now, it's not necesarilly "women's fault" (at least not directly) that this is the case... but to sit there & genuinely berate men for imposing "harsher beauty standards"? Fuck off with that bullshit. That's like saying men have to deal with more cat-calling than women. It's that ludicrous.

[–]BeautifulTomatillo 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]PactScharp3 points 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There absolutely is a 80/20 rule. Throughout history, twice as many women as men had children (something like 80% of all woman had kids vs 40% of all men).

With the rise of online dating, women's options have increased from a few dozen guys around the neighborhood, to basically limitless online. So why wouldn't women be even pickier if the supply is that much greater?

That's exactly why I said it's not inherently or directly women's "fault". Females of all species are inherently more selective than males, who are simply happy to procreate in the first place. It's basic biological & evolutionary function.

The problem is that our technology doesn't know how to handle this selection process & we've already opened pandora's box. As a result, women's standards have become simply delusional. You can write off male experiences all you want about how "women wanting 6+ ft men" is not a "real" thing beyond a few trolls on Twitter or what have you... but the reality is that I have seen HUNDREDS of women unironically mention this standard in their bio. And I don't even have Tinder. I refuse to use Tinder exactly because I know it's a game I cannot win as a man... but my brother has used it, and based on the amount of matches he has, it's pretty clear that he sits in that "top 20%" of men. Regardless, sometimes he asked me to swipe for him if he got bored. I always felt like shit swiping & my brother always laughed how long it took me to decide because I actually read the bios, watched all their pics, etc. Because I don't have that "instant judgement" mentality you need when using something like Tinder. Anyway, point is, even as someone who very rarely scrolled through Tinder girls, I saw HUNDREDS of them demanding 6' ft+ men. So no, it very much is NOT the "exception".

My brother is 1.78 m tall, yet when asked, he quickly learned that he needed to lie & say he was 1.8 m tall because that is usually the cut off height for most women. If you post pics as a dude that expose your height (let's say you're 1.7 m tall, WELL above the 1.64 m average for women), I promise you, you ain't getting any matches. AT ALL.

"A supermajority of men are dating or sexually active. Making this 20% number meaningless"

Lol. That's like saying "a supermajority of people in South-Africa earn money, therefore there is no inequality". What a shit argument.

"The “harsher beauty standards” come from the ridiculous grooming rituals women have to do like shaving their entire body and putting on makeup"

Again, so despite all evidence to the contrary, women are "most affected" and the "primary victims".

Fuck off.

[–]BeautifulTomatillo1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PactScharp2 points 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In short: "PPP-PATRIARCHY".

That's your argument? How profound! How truly original.

There was a historical imbalance because females select & have control over reproduction, as is the case ALL ACROSS THE ANIMAL KINGDOM. Blaming that on some supposed centuries long systemic rape & oppression of women by men is truly one of the most demented & asinine things I have ever heard in my life.

It is so biologically ignorant that it borders on being a miracle. Congrats.

"If >70% of men are able to have sex and/or find a long term partner then it logically follows that it’s impossible for women to only find 20% of men physically attractive."

No, because people settle.

"Most women hate dating apps just as much as men. If it was so great for women why are there so many more men on the app? They see to like it more"

I never said men hate dating apps. I said online dating drastically favors women. And it objective does. As I explained, when you translate online dating to economic inequality, it would be in the 95th percentile of "most unequal" on Earth. And you still have the fucking NERVE to act like it's "just as bad/unfair for both genders".

You are literally just like a millionaire berating a homeless person for their predicament & saying all they need to do is get off their lazy ass. How empathetic.

"The only reason male virginity / sexlessness is rising is because more men are socially isolating themselves and not going outside and building "conversational skills"

And why do you think that's happening in the first place? Perhaps because they are competing in an arena that is stacked against them. Perhaps because they are expected to achieve unattainable standards.

"If a supermajority of people in SA are wealthy then there wouldn’t be an inequality issue. Being employed doesn’t mean you’re not poor"

"Wealthy" in a financial sense would be defined as having lots of money. "Wealthy" in a sexual sense would be defined as having lots of sex.

Just as South-Africans basically ALL earn SOME amount of money, most people also have SOME amount of sex or sexual options/attention. But that doesn't mean all South-Africans earn the same amount of money. Likewise, men don't even come close to having as many sexual options/attention/access as women do. What a massive self-own.

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Looking at the beauty industry, there has only relatively recently been a push toward body acceptance for women who are bigger. I agree that both sexes are under pressure to look “beautiful” but I do think that “looking pretty” is pushed more for women. After all, womens clothes even show off more of your body, pressuring you to conform to a certain body type or else you won’t “look good”. The cosmetic surgery industry is also much more prevalent for women, which speaks to how they are feeling pressured to look a certain way. Cosmetic products in general are geared toward women SO MUCH MORE than men and I think that says something itself: women are more pressured to look a certain way than men are. Isn’t the fact that so many women feel the need to wear makeup kind of indicative in itself that there is a beauty standard that they feel the need to try to achieve? Further, photoshop is much more prevalent on social media when it comes to women. This also implies a large social pressure to conform to a social standard that is tough to ACTUALLY attain.

Also skinny dudes don’t get clowned for being skinny like girls get clowned for being fatter. I am a skinny dude and have lots of skinny dude friends. You can easily date if you are a skinny dude. As for being “ugly”, what do you mean by that?

[–]lordluke1011 points 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]KissMyAsthma-99 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Looking at the beauty industry, there has only relatively recently been a push toward body acceptance for women who are bigger.

That's because it's the ONE remaining bastion of male preference, and they are trying to take that away, too.

Men don't care that much about short or tall, they don't care that much about hair color, they don't care much about fashion, and they don't care much about what job women have. Many men prefer big boobs, but tons of us prefer smaller ones. Big ass is in vogue, but it's not a dealbreaker to most men. The ONE thing that almost all men agree on is 'no fatties.'

It's no coincidence that that is the barrier feminists are dedicated to dismantle. It's the one remaining, widespread, dating preference men have. Once it's gone, men are completely pliable and ubiquitous for service.

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And yet being tall (I'm 6'4") has never benefited me. I guess when I was dating in the 80s the 6" requirement wasn't a thing, because it was never mentioned that I can recall. I was aware of women wanting men taller than themselves, but being under 6' was no deal breaker.

What it did for me is make short women I dated and married feel some compulsion to mouth off to me a lot and try and control me. It never worked but they tried. The thought of nagging and he pecking and beating down a tall man seemed to really thrill them somehow.

The only other thing is, it caused me to be hassled in stores by women who wanted me to get things off shelves for them, like I was their personal servant.

Some benefit being tall has been for me! Never mind the irritation pertaining to legroom in cars and planes, the height of chairs, short beds, problems finding pants long enough and shirts and jackets with sleeves long enough,, bashing my head on light fixtures, contortions to get my head under shower curtains.....I could go on and on.

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