Transmen & MRM

Captaincastle · 2013-12-16T02:36:09+00:00

I don't see all the hubbub over gender vs identity or whatever. Be whatever you want to be, just don't be a jerk.

As for accepting into the mrm the more the merrier.

Ambientmouse · 2013-12-16T02:46:02+00:00

The MRM is openly accepting of trans individuals, though it should be noted that I have not seen any major intention to advocate on trans-specific issues. Even so, there is clear overlap with some of these issues, such as how certain perceptions of masculinity are harmful or limit those who are perceived as or identify as male in our society. I would take a moment to note that there is overlap with both mtf and ftm trans individuals in this regard. I would further note that there are relatively few individuals who have actively experienced life in both male and female gender roles who could provide as insightful commentary on the differences between the two as those who have transitioned... but this latter view may not reflect the overall opinion of this subreddit (though I'm moderately confident it does).

The MRM usually makes a fairly big deal about freedom of speech, however, so there will almost always be some vocal critics of pretty much everything, including this issue.

guywithaccount · 2013-12-16T02:50:14+00:00

Are openly trans* men welcome in the MRM?

AFAIK, no significant number of MRAs are trans-exclusionary.

How do MRAs view sex vs gender?

I haven't seen much discussion of that within the MRM, so I'm not aware of any consensus.

sibqm_lmvm · 2013-12-16T02:59:09+00:00

As far as I've seen, we welcome trans people. Not everyone here totally understands their situation, but, as a whole, we accept them. There have been several heated debates over sex vs. gender, in which one person argues that trans people aren't really the gender they claim to be, because they have XX/XY chromosomes. I'm a psych major and have had trans friends, so I am sympathetic towards trans issues. I know that most of us are happy to have trans people on our team.

We tend to not really talk about trans problems, though, since our sub is dedicated to men's issues in general.

FloranHunter · 2013-12-16T06:01:13+00:00

This subreddit had a trans* month a long ways back.

I don't think most MRAs know enough about gender identity to really have an informed opinion about sex vs gender. If you want to change that, now's a good time!

YetAnotherCommenter · 2013-12-16T03:04:26+00:00

There are a few articles on AVfM written by transmen. They're supportive.

Some MRA's are gender traditionalists, but most (at least here) are not, so I think transmen will be generally welcomed here.

Speaking for myself I think the transman perspective is very interesting and can tell you a lot about gender roles. Certainly, an FtM transman has experienced both sets of social norms (i.e. was once socially considered a woman and then transitions to living as a man), so they (along with MtF transwomen) are kind of the closest to a neutral perspective that we can get.

On the issue of sex and gender, I only speak for my own perspective here. Gender identity seems to be a matter of the biological sexing of the brain (MtF's having female-sexed brains in otherwise male-sexed bodies, and vice-versa for FtM's). Biology produces a spectrum of differentiation (albiet an heavily clustered one), rather than discrete categories, so genderqueerness is probably the neurological version of intersex.

There are statistical gender tendencies across populations, but social construction plays a role too. I'm a biosocial interactionist... nature and nurture are both relevant and contributing factors to "masculinity" and "femininity" respectively, and how individuals interpret biological reality matters.

Sex and Gender, however, are still different things. A lot of gendering is pretty arbitrary and irrational. Biological sex is real but a more complicated matter than "male or female" (although those are the typical outcomes). Additionally, statistical norms or average tendencies aren't morally normative and nor should they be... Most Men Prefer X To Y doesn't mean a man can't prefer Y to X, and it doesn't mean a man who does prefer Y to X is damaged or a 'lesser man' or anything.

CaptainChewbacca · 2013-12-16T06:24:41+00:00

One thing I've noticed about the MRM over my years of observation has been a pervasive desire to include all men, be they cismale, transmen, or even homosexual men, because ALL MEN suffer from a system that does not care to distinguish between them.

vandramir · 2013-12-16T03:06:05+00:00

Trans men deserve equal rights just as much as any other person.

TorontoMike · 2013-12-16T15:34:52+00:00

having fought for LBGT right for many years and having had many arguments with people I have come up with this one truth.

Your sexual orientation / identity is only important if I am trying to have sex with you .

Legolas-the-elf · 2013-12-16T03:40:19+00:00

The MRM is fairly accepting of trans men. Previous threads:

qoppaphi · 2013-12-16T02:41:08+00:00

Personally, I'm perfectly okay with trans people being part of the MRM, just like cis people are. Depending on how people view them, both trans men and trans women can be victims of misandry, as well as their own social issues which cis people don't face.

I'll fully admit that I'm mostly ignorant as to how transgender issues factor into the things the MRM fights for and against. I wouldn't at all mind hearing more on the subject.

sociable-sociopath · 2013-12-16T04:25:19+00:00

I'm trans and a big men's rights supporter. I don't comment here often, because I'm more of a reader, but on the whole if I discuss being FTM people are either vaguely interested in what it's like to experience both genders, they don't care or, on rare occasions, they are rude and get downvoted. I've never had a problem with this community, they're way more supportive than any of the transphobic feminists you come across.

mister_ghost · 2013-12-16T03:32:56+00:00

Everyone is welcome here, as long as they believe in helping men when they need help.

Sex vs gender isn't really a thing that comes up for discussion. One of the interesting differences between the MRM and feminism is that it is much more common to see MRAs saying 'this is not a men's rights issue' than feminists saying something isn't a feminist issue.

I'm sure there are MRAs who view sex and gender as synonymous, but I personally don't and I'm equally sure that there are others like me.

PennyCapitalist · 2013-12-16T02:42:06+00:00

I'd welcome anyone who wants to join.

Bartab · 2013-12-16T03:17:48+00:00

'trans men' not transmen, its an adjective.

"white man" "blind man" "trans man" not whiteman blindman transman

Trans men are men, so why wouldn't they be?

texasjoe · 2013-12-16T16:09:26+00:00

Feminism has its TERF's, and the majority of feminists try to distance themselves from them.

Some people within the MRM, I'm sure, equivalently want nothing to do with trans folks. I don't see it to the extent that it occurs within feminism, in fact I haven't seen one case of that kind of discrimination here, but I do know that some MRM folks cling to traditionalism, so I must make the guess that it exists somewhere here based on that.

Personally, I welcome any folks (men, women, trans-men, trans-women, straight, bisexual, and homosexual) into the discussion here. If you have interest in making things better socially or in equality in laws, you have a place here.

jolly_mcfats · 2013-12-16T03:48:03+00:00

gender identity is a thing.

transmen welcome.

CosmicKeys · 2013-12-16T08:24:16+00:00

Yes definitely, trans women similarly. Although don't expect MRAs to be particularly focused on or sensitive to trans issues.

Spooge_Tits · 2013-12-16T08:28:22+00:00

Sure, get in.

ThePigmanAgain · 2013-12-16T04:20:53+00:00

"How do MRAs view sex vs gender?"

Most of the ones here seem convinced that they are the same thing.

selfsufficientnigga · 2013-12-16T06:06:36+00:00

As opposed to 'feminism', when men talk about equality, they actually mean it instead of using it as a tool to further their own supremacy.

So, welcome.

Number357 · 2013-12-17T00:29:29+00:00

People are welcome here. Men, women, gay, straight, bi, trans*, or prefer not to identify.

kragshot · 2013-12-17T00:34:40+00:00

The only issue that I have seen regarding trans-people and the MRM is concern about the a "cis-gendered male's" right of informed sexual consent regarding whether an apparent woman is "trans" or not.

One side states that trans-women have the right to conceal their "trans-state" to sexual partners as it is a matter of privacy of medical history and personal safety as there is a significant fear of violence against trans-women by cis-gendered males upon discovery.

The other side argues that cis-gendered males have a right to informed consent or denial regarding sex with trans-women and that by hiding that fact, they are being actively deceived. One group of people have conjectured that the violence that trans-women have experienced mainly comes from the fact that the assaulting males were angry at being deceived by the trans-women in question and if they had known from the beginning that the women were transgender in nature, they would not have consented to the sex.

Again; I'm just stating both sides of the argument...I'm neither condoning or condemning either one.

giegerwasright · 2013-12-16T03:01:37+00:00

Do you support the rights of men equally with those of women?

Excellent. Welcome to the show.

Do you not support that? Well. You're still welcome to participate. That's how we do here.

That doesn't mean that everyone here is going to agree that men who want to be women are actually really and truly women, and vice versa, but you will find that the vast majority of the participants of this subreddit support equality and the right of equal participation even if they disagree with definitions of terms.

If you can handle that, you'll be fine here. If you can't... go cwy somewhere else.

DavidByron · 2013-12-16T06:09:16+00:00

Feminism hates trans people for the same reason the Nazis hated halfcastes -- groups that want to divide people by birth and hate one side, don't like people who blur the dividing line. Trans people blur the dividing line for feminists. Are they supposed to hate the person like a man, or defend them like a woman? The end result is almost always to hate the people who blur the difference because they are resented for making it appear as if there maybe isn't that much of a difference as the haters say.

Men are inherently evil rapists who love hurting people -- according to feminists, whereas women are angelic innocent people who bravely fight for their rights. So how do they classify a trans person? Whatever they do it makes them look stupid.

There's no difference between radicals and "nice" feminists on this except that radicals are not easily ashamed and the "nice" feminists are. The radicals are just more honest.

Since MRAs don't hate women none of this is an issue for them. I suppose a few might think trans people are icky in the way so many people sometimes do but if they do then it has nothing to do with their being MRAs. I would like to think that since they are trying to get equality themselves that they would be supportive and understanding generally to other discriminated groups.

Are openly trans* men welcome in the MRM?

Well i think anyone is regardless of sexual identity or sexual orientation. It's just not an issue. Trans men's issues would be, and trans people often have interesting view points on some stuff, but the identity of the activist is just not relevant.

VortexCortex · 2013-12-16T11:21:20+00:00

Are openly trans* men welcome in the MRM?

Are you sentient? If you can comprehend that that was a question, then Welcome.

How do MRAs view sex vs gender?

With binoculars. It's a cage match, so you're relatively safe, but you don't want to get any on you.

Joking aside: They're the same damn thing. I'm a cyberneticist, and as such I make a keen distinction between physical constructs and behaviors emergent thereof. So, what gender is a creature with XY chromosomes? In mammals (and some insects) that would be sexed as male.

What behavior will a male sexed creature exhibit? Well, there are typical behaviors that are commonly exhibited by males, but individuals are not restricted to these behaviors. Indeed behaviors are not unique to any gender; They are emergent processes operating atop the physical form.

Sex vs Gender it's like asking my views on hardware vs hardware. Uh, it's hardware. You probably meant to ask about the software and/or firmware that runs on the hardware, but our language fails us because "gender" and "sex" can mean the same thing even if a section of the populace insists they do not.

In any event, it doesn't matter to me what sort of behavior you exhibit. Your chromosomes will dictate your sex / gender; but not limit it to a set of behaviors. This is a proven fact. It is also a proven fact that in aggregate commonalities can be found. If I'm guessing correctly: Your brain is a chemical computer of the human wetware architecture that can exhibit a variety of behaviors. We have metrics for common behaviors, but this does not restrict your own behaviors to those commonalities.

I understand it can ease relations with the rest of society to adopt appearances and behaviors common to one or the other sex -- That's your prerogative. It's the actions that I judge entities on, not their preference for behavior sets.

In other words, if you want to help men and boys, let's do it; Who you are categorized as is really of little or no concern in the context of advocacy of Men's Rights.

Please note, I am not talking about the issue of transwomen disclosing their trans-ness.

Trans-ness? I'll have to admit: I don't really give a damn about what's politically correct at all, be it in terms such as retardation (a medical term) or behavioral divergence from norms (queerness). I just can't be fucked to care about trivialities of discourse. If anyone is offended by my speech then they can sod-off, down-vote, or ignore me. However, if they try to understand that I care about communication more than introducing needless complexity to the protocol, then we'll probably get along just fine. The message is in the signal, not the noise.

In any event, I'll welcome women, men, whatever trans-folk want to be called, robots, cyborgs, aliens, and in shorter time than than you think even dolphins and apes as equals. It's the capacity for complexity of the mind which I value. Humans likely have similar intelligence to me, so they're equals in my book; I acknowledge that not all humans utilize their full compliment of intelligence, however.

I see people as a system of neurons; If you're organic life, then you probably have a sack of tantalizing flesh but your meat bag's appearance or chemical / hormonal composition doesn't matter at all to me; It's your brain that matters.

If your brain is capable of sufficient signal processing and correction of confirmation bias, we'll get along just fine. I can't speak for the rest of the creatures on this wet rock. Your mileage may vary.

So, if I have such a non-gendered outlook upon the universe why the MRM? Well, because those people identifying primarily as male need our help. I also advocate for women's rights too. When I help females, it's Women's Rights Activist; When for males: Men's Rights Activist; When for both? Human Rights Activist. Human culture is deep enough to benefit from specialization.

However, I'm never a Feminist because feminism is an ideology full of false nonsense that's built out of confirmation bias, and doesn't test the null hypothesis. -- It's not scientifically sound. No ideology has a place among Rights Movements, in my opinion; Least of all unevidenced bullshit like Feminism. I've studied that crap for decades, and can't tolerate the white-washed bigotry anymore; It's actively harming men's and women's rights.

danpilon · 2013-12-16T16:39:13+00:00

Yes openly trans men (and women) are welcome here. That is not, however, to say to that the issues we will focus on will be trans issues. We have not really tried to co-opt other movements into the MRM like feminism has. Basically, we are not anti-trans or anything like that, so anyone is welcome if they bring an open and critical mind to the table.

VoodooIdol · 2013-12-16T18:25:59+00:00

As far as I'm concerned anyone who identifies as male is welcome here. I can't speak for everyone, but I hope that at least most who identify as MRAs would feel the same way.

jpflathead · 2013-12-16T21:11:06+00:00

My best friend, who while not explicitly a member of the MRM, was definitely opposed to a lot of feminist nonsense is trans.

Demonspawn · 2013-12-16T05:16:24+00:00

Are openly trans* men welcome in the MRM?

Welcome.

How do MRAs view sex vs gender?

Lemmie have another beer and tell you how I really feel.....

Ok. First, I'm not every MRA. But here's what I think. Basically, I see sex and gender as tied. If your sex and gender are not the same, there's something wrong with you. Now, mind you "wrong with you" just means wrong. Not necessarily bad. What's wrong with you is just as wrong as the girl I knew back in HS who had one blue eye and one brown eye which I thought were beautiful.

On the other hand, trans is so very rare that I think "accepting" is the correct level rather than "accommodating". Are you going to get some grief in general society for being trans? Yep. Is it a big deal? Not really. You're like people with six fingers: unusual, a little bit strange, and not a big deal other than I don't expect society to be "adjusted" to make life for six fingered people easier at the cost of my own ease.

What I find really interesting about trans people are the factors. There's the genetics, there's the exposure to testosterone in the womb (which, as my unresearched understanding is generally what causes trans), and then there's society. Seeing those three interplay in an unusual method helps us understand which exposures bring which results.

Overall, I see it as not a big deal. I'll buy ya a beer and have a good conversation if yer ever in my area.

JoshtheAspie · 2013-12-16T05:45:48+00:00

As long as you're not going to use the government's gun to force me to call you one or the other, or try to pick my pocket using the government's fingers, that's entirely your call if you want to call yourself a man or a woman.

If you're persuing an end to "equal when we like it, unequal when we don't", and you don't try to push other members of the MRM out of the movement, I think most folks in the MRM will be willing to work with you.

rightsbot · 2013-12-16T02:28:17+00:00

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nick012000 · 2013-12-16T07:39:25+00:00

Personally, I believe that transexuals are simply the victims of mental illness who get surgically mutilated by doctors who seek to accommodate their delusions rather than trying to treat their underlying disorder.

That said, however, our movement is not exclusive to members of one gender. If you support our cause, you're more than welcome to join us, whether you're a man, a woman, or a mentally-ill eunuch.

MockingDead · 2013-12-16T03:06:45+00:00

Don't care if you are a trans-man. I'll call you a dude if you want. But you may still suffer hypergamy and hypoagency -these are biological traits.

But otherwise, come on in.

unexpecteditem · 2013-12-16T11:39:41+00:00

My experience has been that claims that sex is biologically determined are not well received in this sub.

Title	Transmen & MRM
Author	infinette
Upvotes	38
Comments	117
Date	December 16, 2013 2:26 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1sz6kc/transmen_mrm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/transmen-mrm.1156059 https://theredarchive.com/post/1156059

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