Women need men like fish need a bicycle? Ok, then...

Peter_Principle_ · 2012-09-20T14:23:54+00:00

...start campaigning against child support....

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They don't appear to be encouraging anything negative, just making an observation.

From The New York Times article on the book:

Rosin is not saying that women are winners in a global gender war or that they are doing super simply because men are doing worse. She’s just saying women are adapting to today’s economy more flexibly and resiliently than men.

Yup. When women were failing in pre-industrial/industrial society, it was because gender roles and social conditioning and stuff, but when men are failing in post-industrial society it's because we don't adapt. Oh, well--I guess we just have to leave men behind. It's far too much effort to get rid of our government's "protect the oppressed women from any hardship at the cost of men" mentality--I mean, shit. We're bored of doing stuff to help victims of messed up social/legal systems. Been there, done that.

if you guys think that hating men is a part of feminism, you'll be happily rewarded by the reality.

I am honestly so fucking tired of getting this shit from feminists. I grew up in a feminist household (a moderate one, too), I went through a feminist school system, I've dealt with all kinds of feminists in real life and on the internet, as I'm sure you have. Stop assuming MRAs are ignorant about feminism--in many cases, we know it better than the "feminism is just about equality and not about power-grabbing and anti-male legislation/culture" feminists.

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One could also argue that overpopulation is just as sure a way to doom "civilization" as underpopulation.

Or more specifically I think one could make the argument that certain cohorts' fecundity within a population could just as well be good or bad.

For example, despite maternity leave, in the west the more educated and affluent are the ones least likely to have children; especially many children or have them much later in life (almost too late).

Whereas the least educated are the ones most likely to have children, have them earlier and the ones most likely to have many of them. All of these choices can be linked to causing poverty, education disruption and ultimately greater income disparity.

Is poverty and income disparity not also linked to social, political, and physical strife?

How is maternity leave going to alleviate the very issue it is more-or-less creating?

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You're intentionally missing the point just to argue.

It's a HUMAN BEING. It will go to school, it will have jobs, it will pay taxes. It might be a scientist. It might cure cancer. It will be responsible for caring for the generation that sired them as well as teaching the children it has.

The downside of having a puppy and not training them is it shitting on your carpet, chewing up your furniture, and dying around age 15. Overall, it's in YOUR best interest to make them happy and well developed.

The downside of not raising a person properly is abandonment issues and stunted mental/emotional development. Lacking in education contributes to delinquency, theft, drugs, teen pregnancy, welfare and just being a drain on the system as a whole. Overall, it is in SOCIETY'S best interest everything possible is done to produce prosperous individuals.

Yes, getting a puppy, taking a vacation, and having a kid are all choices, but only one of them is a biological prerogative required to perpetuate our species and maintain society as we know it.

Your dog won't hold a job or care for you in your old age. Your vacation won't spend 70 years paying taxes. Your child will spend the rest of it's life contributing to the world around it.

Yes, your co-workers have a vested interest in you properly raising a child. Assuming you work in the same office, you likely live reasonably near each other. In 15 years, if you did a shit job and your kid steals cars and vandalizes neighborhoods, it could be THEIR car or THEIR home.

Conversely, if you raise a fine, upstanding youth, they could be the kid that walks their dog, volunteers for community projects decorating/beautifying public parks, or even grow up to be a nursing assistant that ends up working in the retirement home all your coworkers end up in... unless they themselves raised generous, good spirited children that take them in when they can no longer support themselves.

This selfish mentality of I WANT MINE NOW TOO INSTANTLY! only serves to deteriorate society. Do you really want to teach children it's more important to post profits than raise and educate children to give them every possible chance to succeed in life?

We are all individuals, but NONE of us exist in a vacuum. How many HUNDREDS of people to you interact with on a daily basis? Even if you don't say a word to them, you are surrounded by dozens of other people during your morning commute and everyone of them could potentially hold your life in their hands. If they were raised to be selfish and impulsive regardless of what it means to others, they could see that "might be big enough" gap in the slightly faster moving lane and dash for it because it would mean they think they're getting somewhere ever so slightly faster... and misjudge, clip your bumper and send you spinning into a barricade... or step on your breaks and spill your coffee... or just piss you off and raise your blood pressure.

It's corny, but we are ALL connected and everything we do affects everyone we will ever meet and even people we will never meet. Sometimes it's in small ways; sometimes big. Either way, we all have a vested interest in ensuring EVERY person ends up being the best person they can. To claim otherwise is willful ignorance or cognitive dissonance.

Society is a collection of individuals. The better each individual performs, the better society as a whole performs. "Fuck you, where's mine" is the exact opposite of social progress. Such myopic ignorance will only decay whatever shred of decency is left in this world.

That's socially... but what about economically? What incentive does a company have to pay parents to be gone for months at a time? Well, for one, it fosters the forgotten concept of loyalty. People that are taken care of by their employers in return take care of their employers. A company that takes care to look out for their employees' health and overall well being is repaid with employees that are happier, healthier, more productive, and just in general a greater asset to the company than someone who is always tired/making mistakes because they work 60+ hours a week, is always missing work because their always sick because the company forgoes offering health care, or just in general miserable from the shitty conditions associated in working for an employer that in no way gives a shit about them.

The bottom line actually SUFFERS when you treat employees as worthless, disposable biological machines that you replace at the first sign of failure. Any perceived savings of cutting benefits and overworking employees is offset by a multitude of factors. One of the biggest is training expense. Every time someone is fired for being too sick (because they're not given basic health coverage) or quits for being treated like shit working 60 hours with unpaid overtime, the company has to go out and start the process of hiring someone new. So, a manager has to stop managing and start interviewing. Then, after finding someone, that person has to be paid for weeks/months doing effectively nothing more than learning. They also impact the productivity of those around them by requiring instruction/aide.

However, that really doesn't apply directly to parental leave. Honestly, I'm not aware of a purely financial incentive for parental leave but that's not to say there is no merit (you could argue a great deal of ills are do to profit being the sole metric of success). However, public perception is huge for companies. If word gets out that you treat employees well, you will have a lot of people clamoring to work for you. Look at companies like Google. It's also great for employee moral knowing your job isn't threatened simply for ensuring we don't go extinct. Happy employees are productive employees. Happy employees make happy customers. If working conditions make employees miserable, customers notice. Shitty companies legislate appearing happy whereas good companies make their workers legitimately happy.

In all, the company is investing in a worker and will usually be rewarded by that investment.

I could make some insipid comment that forces words into your mouth equating your puppy to be of equal importance to doing our best to promote a higher standard of living for everyone... but meh.

TLDR; Everyone benefits from a well raised child. Stop being myopic and selfish.

[–]SaltedCream -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If you are talking about the affluent white bitches that make up the majority of reddit's feminist population, then they can stop getting knocked up [60% of children born to women under 30 are out of wedlock,] they can stop bitching about income and education gaps [CONSAD report shows income gap of 2-5%, and women lead at all levels of education from high school to PhD, only being a minority in STEM PhD fields,] and they can take control of their own lives, earn a living, and have a kid when they are ready. They can then realize, holy fuck, you can't have it all, and when you have a child[ren] then you have to make sacrifices, and some of those sacrifices include either work life, or home life.

The same choices men have been making this entire time of the western business wage labor model.

Is poverty and income disparity not also linked to social, political, and physical strife?

Inane question.

How is maternity leave going to alleviate the very issue it is more-or-less creating?

I don't know. I, and every male I have ever met, don't get paternity leave. Don't ask me.

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I cant choose for a family member to come down with a terminal disease and requiring the personal sacrifice of someone in the family. If I was working with anyone that had that happen to them, I would step up to help cover them at work, no problem.

Thats different than someone choosing to become pregnant knowing full well the consequences and expecting everyone they work with to cover for them. How is this different from some guy deciding to up and go hang-gliding for a few months and everyone else on his team can go and fuck themselves? (and God help your legal dept if he gets back and doesnt have a job)

We're all paying into reproductive choices for women, right? So we're paying for them to have children when/if they want and then we are also expected to cover for them when they decide to exercise that choice as well. It seems a bit excessive to me.

Either its a choice and we are all paying for them to have that choice (which is fine, Im confident one day the genders will have equal reproductive choices and it will all even out in the wash) or its not a choice and we all pay when the unforeseeable happens. But its clearly not both.

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And he has paid a tax on every single cigarette pack he has ever bought to offset his burden now. In fact as increasingly more dangers inherent with smoking have become known the tax on them has also increased.

I get what youre saying. People can deliberately choose to screw themselves and we, as human beings with compassion, will inevitably bail them out. The problem is it isnt fair to punish others who are not selfish assholes to continually cover for the decisions of selfish assholes.

Theres a difference in letting people CHOOSE to be compassionate and forcing them to be so. It creates a disincentive. At some point the drones quietly toiling realize theres no real downside to being selfish assholes.

That, by policy and force, everyone else will be required to cover for your poor decisions. If poor decisions have no bad outcomes this charges the very dynamic of risk-reward behavior. In effect, the only poor decision that remains is working diligently to pay for everyone else's choices.

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In addition to vacation time do companies allow me to choose to do something that I know will impact my work and, by federal mandate, guarantee me a job upon my return 12 weeks later? During this interim the company can either hire a temp or force my co-workers to pick up my slack; effectively passing some of the cost of my decision onto others.

Because thats what they do with maternity/paternity leave. Why should they be forced to do that for one choice people can make in their lives, and not others?

I mean if I can accrue vacation time and use that window to fulfill my life's choices, why cant others when they are deciding to have kids? Thats what youre saying isnt it? My life's choices arent as important so I can fill it into vacation time or I can fuck myself, but if someone chooses to have kids then suddenly everyone has to bend over backwards to accommodate that choice.

So thats the question...why the disparity when both are choices that people freely choose?

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You told me that I can choose to take my vacations during my accrued vacation time (which to my knowledge is not a federal requirement). If I cant take them during my vacation time then (Im assuming) I cant take them.

This holds true for nearly anything anyone chooses to do. If you cant balance it with work then you must do it when youre off from work, during your vacation. If you cant do it during your vacation and if you cant do it during work, then you either quit your job or you dont do it. The company and its employees do not have to accommodate you. Bob in marketing doesnt have to pull a second shift because I wanted to go meditate with the Dali Lama.

EXCEPT of course I choose to have kids.

If you choose that then your company is forced to accommodate your decision. They cant fire you so they have to either hire someone temp (and train them to do your job and absorb that downtime cost) or have everyone else cover for you (and they can like it or go an fuck themselves).

Both of these scenarios are people choosing to do things. No one is forced into anything. So why is everyone forced to accommodate people's decisions to become parents but the rest of us who choose not to are shit out of luck. We have to cover for them but we dont get leave to pursue our life goals that cant be completed during accrued vacation time. If we want to do something like that we have to quit because we cant get everything we want.

Thats not fair. Either everyone gets to pursue their dreams and gets leave to do so, or no one does...but its a little bs to say some people's choices merit leave but most people's dont.

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Title	Women need men like fish need a bicycle? Ok, then...
Author	Peter_Principle_
Upvotes	116
Comments	117
Date	September 20, 2012 2:23 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/106y9y/women_need_men_like_fish_need_a_bicycle_ok_then/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/women-need-men-like-fish-need-a-bicycle-ok-then.1013164 https://theredarchive.com/post/1013164

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