Affirmative Consent

TheChemist158 · 2017-10-31T19:42:06+00:00

If you guys had to write a syllabus for a sex-ed class, what would some topics be? What would be the overarching theme? What are some truths and myths you would discuss with the class?

It would focus I objective, factual information like how the sex organs functions, what the student's may be experiencing and how they tie in, STIs, pregnancy, and safe sex.

I wouldn't touch on how to court, date, or get consent because that shit just doesn't belong in a classroom.

SlimLovin · 2017-10-31T19:53:43+00:00

Women responded strongly when they were shown pictures of hyper-masculine body-types. I think this study goes a long way towards proving that a woman is genetically programmed to respond positively to dominant male traits.

I know this is off topic, but where does it say this in the study? From what I read it showed women pictures of couples engaging in sex acts, not hyper-masculine images of men.

goatismycopilot · 2017-10-31T20:20:08+00:00

Two things sex ed at the high school levels should cover 1) strangers drinking eight million tequilas and having sex is a bad idea 2) young men are usually bad at sex, keep the expectations low because they do not know what anatomy is or what to do when they get there. If young women knew how bad many of their hook ups were really likely going to be THAT would cut down on hook up culture dramatically and likely the confusion about what happened and where. Instead of warning women about rape and STDs and pregnancy just tell them the truth about how crap the sex will be. Guys still like bad unsatisfying sex, but women do not.

the_calibre_cat · 2017-10-31T19:41:25+00:00

This affirmative consent movement is doing a disservice to men. It appears to me as just another way to lock easily manipulated and unattractive men out of the SMP.

Of course it is. It's designed to criminalize ordinary male sexual behavior, women want their cake and to eat it too.

sublimemongrel · 2017-10-31T19:47:56+00:00

It's a reaction to the problem of young, naive women in college who are arguably taken advantage of when drunk by equally young, naive men (I'm generalizing, I'm sure there are some actual predators and some women who completely misconstrue what date rape is). Many believe it to be an overreaction. I don't know how people (young, old, whatever) are supposed to mechanically apply some sort of arbitrary "are you ok??" time-triggered response during sex, personally.

In my experience, enthusiastic consent almost never happens with the average woman, never mind inexperienced ones who affirmative consent sex-ed is advertised to.

I don't know what specifically you are referring to here ... but certainly I would hope it would be enough that your sex partner is an enthusiastic and active participant, which is something I would hope most people to expect and aim to procure?

The act of flirting, showing your interest, and taking initiative is what starts to turn women on.

I don't think this is the same as what is normally meant by "sexual objectification."

what would some topics be?

I think men and women would be better off learning first and foremost, safe sex practices rather than a bullshit abstinence-only agenda and b) I think educating about consent, who is too drunk to consent, etc., is still worthwhile for BOTH genders. Just my opinions although it appears that this topic is just confusing young people more than ever.

Alth12 · 2017-10-31T19:54:49+00:00

I'd bring up the myth that all sex has to be like pornography. As in often, particularly with new partners and when sober, it's really fumbly and awkward and not at all the strictly choreographed shit you see in pornos.

NalkaNalka · 2017-10-31T19:44:45+00:00

Affirmative consent is just ritual self flagellation.

wtknight · 2017-10-31T19:57:30+00:00

I would probably advise young men to avoid drunk casual sex at college parties. This would not fully get rid of the problem, but it would do quite a bit to help.

alreadyredschool · 2017-10-31T20:56:06+00:00

It is about making sure sex is a joyful and positive experience for everyone involved. Teaching young men and women that sex doesn't have to scary or be a chore. I think it's vitally important that sex-ed is also about enthusiastic consent and comfortability.

Affirmative consent means including your partner in your moment-to-moment decision-making and ensuring that they're always on board with what's happening.

This fear that men will be too afraid to make a move or that women will get turned-off by every guy literally asking if he can now touch her boob is fucking moronic.

RockinSocksII · 2017-10-31T19:46:11+00:00

Women responded strongly when they were shown pictures of hyper-masculine body-types.

So like muscular guys?

Because if all men decided overnight to stop objectifying women, they would stop paying women any attention and treat them as indifferently as they treat other men. And women certainly don't want that.

That would be wonderful 😍

[deleted] · 2017-10-31T20:04:17+00:00

You can be a masculine man without objectifying women. Just realize that inside the body that so turns you on is a real actual person with hopes, dreams, feelings and emotions, and that the person inside of that body matters. You can also be an assertive man who recognizes when a woman is uncomfortable going to the next level and takes steps to ensure that she actually wants to go there and not pushing her to do something she really doesn't want to do.

Heck I had that greasy pole guy (I think) explain this to me. The proper red pill way to do this, which honestly sounds fine. If you press for a woman to go to the 'next level' of a sexual encounter with you and she is uncomfortable then you stop. He suggested that you then exit the situation and later you can try again. Which is totally fine and nobody is going to charge you with sexual assault for that.

But I mean if you digitally rape an unconscious woman behind a dumpster than yeah. We are going to charge you with sexual assault and put you in jail.

BlueRabbit21 · 2017-10-31T20:04:52+00:00

Men should be dominant, this is something that turns women on. I don't agree with the whole feminist narrative on this.

Men who are dominant are by and large, assholes too (I guess that kinda comes with being a man, especially one that is dominant) and therefore it should be expected. Feminist women complain about the downsides of dominant men, not the benefits I'm guessing.

I don't really see how objectification of women = dominance. You can be dominant, appreciate the beauty of women and not objectify them. What does objectify even mean?

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Mr_Smoogs · 2017-10-31T19:33:06+00:00

If you guys had to write a syllabus for a sex-ed class, what would some topics be? What would be the overarching theme? What are some truths and myths you would discuss with the class?

"They're like sandy bags of milk"

Raii-v2 · 2017-10-31T22:38:15+00:00

I would teach the class in two parts. First would be co-ed and cover the basics of human sexual anatomy. The second would be gendered based upon what you identify as and contrast the dating advice/traditional expectations of courtship from the other sex.

decoy88 · 2017-11-01T13:20:26+00:00

In my experience, enthusiastic consent almost never happens with the average woman, never mind inexperienced ones who affirmative consent sex-ed is advertised to.

Can someone please describe to me what consent that's not enthusiastic looks like in an intimate setting?

KerPop42 · 2017-10-31T19:56:29+00:00

It's not really a problem in my experience; better sex is slower anyway, and "affirmative consent" only really need to happen when you're moving on to the next level. Also, you can get affirmative consent in a sexy way. For example, refusing to go any farther unless she asks you, slowly starting to move to the next step and asking, "do you like that?"

Also, people will have different personal preferences on what they want to do and in what order. Asking and taking turns leading, and respecting your partner (even if not physically) is a good idea regardless.

BiggerDthanYou · 2017-10-31T22:49:32+00:00

“What does that mean — you have to say ‘yes’ every 10 minutes?” asked Aidan Ryan, 16, who sat near the front of the room.

“Pretty much,” Ms. Zaloom answered. “It’s not a timing thing, but whoever initiates things to another level has to ask.”

She's not an authority on this. I'd rather trust the lawmakers and what colleges have to say about it.

Let's look at the way it is worded in the SB-967 bill:

“Affirmative consent” means affirmative, conscious, and voluntary agreement to engage in sexual activity. It is the responsibility of each person involved in the sexual activity to ensure that he or she has the affirmative consent of the other or others to engage in the sexual activity. Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent. Affirmative consent must be ongoing throughout a sexual activity and can be revoked at any time. The existence of a dating relationship between the persons involved, or the fact of past sexual relations between them, should never by itself be assumed to be an indicator of consent.

This doesn't explicitly say that it has to be verbal.

Now let's look at what most of the articles about it said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/29/yes-means-yes-california-sexual-consent

The legislation says silence or lack of resistance does not constitute consent. Under the bill, someone who is drunk, drugged, unconscious or asleep cannot grant consent.

Lawmakers say consent can be nonverbal, and universities with similar policies have outlined examples as a nod of the head or moving in closer to the person.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/03/living/affirmative-consent-school-policy/index.html

It's a message students across the country are hearing as they return to campus for a new semester. Often referred to as affirmative consent, it's the concept of both parties agreeing to sexual conduct, either through clear, verbal communication or nonverbal cues or gestures.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-theory/wp/2015/10/12/affirmative-consent-a-primer/

Real consent is marked by the ongoing presence of a yes rather than the absence of a no — both parties must agree to sexual contact verbally or through clear non-verbal cues, and silence or lack of resistance doesn’t indicate consent.

Now let's look at what all the colleges with affirmative consent themselves say:

https://policy.umn.edu/operations/sexualassault-appa

Clear and unambiguous words or actions are those that are freely and actively given by informed individuals that a reasonable person in the circumstances would believe communicate a willingness to participate in a mutually agreed upon sexual activity.

https://adminguide.stanford.edu/chapter-1/subchapter-7/policy-1-7-3#anchor-24469

Consent is an affirmative nonverbal act or verbal statement expressing consent to sexual activity by a person that is informed, freely given and mutually understood. It is the responsibility of person(s) involved in sexual activity to ensure that he/she/they have the affirmative consent of the other or others to engage in the sexual activity. Affirmative consent must be ongoing throughout a sexual activity and can be revoked at any time. Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent. Consent to one act by itself does not constitute consent to another act. The existence of a dating relationship between the persons involved, or the fact of past sexual relations, should never by itself be assumed to be an indicator of consent. Whether one has taken advantage of a position of influence over another may be a factor in determining consent.

http://safe.unc.edu/learn-more/consent/

UNC has an “affirmative consent” policy. This means that consent is the communication of an affirmative, conscious and freely made decision by each participant to engage in sexual activity. Consent requires an outward demonstration, through understandable words or actions, of a clear willingness to engage in sexual contact.

Consent can also be non-verbal. There are ways to express a clear willingness to engage in sexual contact without using words. Examples of giving nonverbal consent may include: head nod, thumbs up, pulling someone closer, nodding yes, making direct eye contact, actively touching someone, initiating sexual activity

https://www.hercampus.com/school/notre-dame/consent-isnt-complicated-reality-about-affirmative-consent

Affirmative consent isn’t made to induce anxiety when having sex. Policies explicitly indicate that consent can be non-verbal, and, as long as intentions are communicated clearly and both parties are able to express their wishes, there isn’t a problem.

So all in all no you don't always have to ask.

Do women even want this? I've met staunch feminists in my city who abhor the feminization of men and wonder why no attractive man approaches them or physically escalates.

Yes women like not getting sexually assaulted.

In a study conducted at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, researchers discovered that the brain “is quickly turned on and “tuned in” when a person views erotic images.” Although this may sound obvious, what surprised the researchers the most was that this is as much true for women as it is for men.

This is what your link says, but...

Women responded strongly when they were shown pictures of hyper-masculine body-types. I think this study goes a long way towards proving that a woman is genetically programmed to respond positively to dominant male traits.

...this isn't mentioned.

This seems like a fabrication of your reality, because they never mention anything like that. All they talk about is that erotic images get processed by different and stronger neural pathways

When study volunteers viewed erotic pictures, their brains produced electrical responses that were stronger than those elicited by other material that was viewed, no matter how pleasant or disturbing the other material may have been. This difference in brainwave response emerged very quickly, suggesting that different neural circuits may be involved in the processing of erotic images.

“That surprised us,” says first author Andrey P. Anokhin, Ph.D., research assistant professor of psychiatry. “We believed both pleasant and disturbing images would evoke a rapid response, but erotic scenes always elicited the strongest response.”

Do you have a source that actually says what you claim?

This affirmative consent movement is doing a disservice to men. It appears to me as just another way to lock easily manipulated and unattractive men out of the SMP.

Oh no how horrible. Unattractive men can't just rape passed out women anymore. Sad!

The act of flirting, showing your interest, and taking initiative is what starts to turn women on. It positions you as a potential sexual partner. You HAVE to be assertive – playing it safe almost always makes women turn off. In my experience, enthusiastic consent almost never happens with the average woman, never mind inexperienced ones who affirmative consent sex-ed is advertised to.

But it does. It happens all the time. As the lawmakers and the university policies clearly state nonverbal cues can be enough.

From my experience, most experienced men laugh off the contradicting nature of feminist rhetoric. Especially when a significant portion of women play this game where they pretend to be prude and unwilling while framing the same game as a man winning pussy as a prize for impressing her with his personality and looks. On top of that, usually the onus is on men to physically escalate.

Well if all the experienced men you know are from the same echo chamber that only know the most hyperbolic strawfeminism this makes sense.

So sex-ed should just be honest about it, is all. Women LIKE to be sexually objectified. Stop saying they don't. Because if all men decided overnight to stop objectifying women, they would stop paying women any attention and treat them as indifferently as they treat other men. And women certainly don't want that.

I don't think that women would miss getting harassed, catcalled or groped by strangers.

If you guys had to write a syllabus for a sex-ed class, what would some topics be? What would be the overarching theme? What are some truths and myths you would discuss with the class?

I wasted so much time with all the other bullshit that these questions will have to wait for now.

[deleted] · 2017-11-01T13:39:29+00:00

Pretty much,” Ms. Zaloom answered. “It’s not a timing thing, but whoever initiates things to another level has to ask.”

EXACTLY.

This is what I've been saying all along about affirmative consent. It requires EXPRESS, VERBAL consent for EVERY advancement of the encounter. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

People say it doesn't, but it does, and that's what's intended.

Title	Affirmative Consent
Author	Mr_Smoogs
Upvotes	13
Comments	206
Date	October 31, 2017 7:30 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/79y6yp/affirmative_consent/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/affirmative-consent.265086 https://theredarchive.com/post/265086

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